On Wed, 2 Jul 2008 16:35:34 EDT, Rick T wrote:

There are a huge number of
translators in northwest Arizona.....at a cost of over
$3,000 each to convert the translators times about 50, plus
the LPTV stuff in the Phoenix and Tucson metro areas.

I have very little sympathy for the LPTV folks in that regard. They
wanted to play with the "big dogs" by running a TV station but don't
want to do what the "big dogs" have to do to stay on the air. Don't
even get me started on LPFM......

I wish that the ham community had as much clout with The Congress and
the FCC as the LPTV people have - maybe we'd get the legislation that
we need to solve important problems, like pre-emption of CC&Rs for
antenna towers and better protection from interlopers, be they primary
users or not (my two hot buttons).
--

73 de K2ASP - Phil Kane

From a Clearing in the Silicon Forest
Beaverton (Washington County) Oregon

e-mail: k2asp [at] arrl [dot] net

On Wed, 02 Jul 2008 16:35:34 -0400, Rick T wrote:
Well, I count about 60 stations licensed for high-power
digital TV operations nationwide on 7-13.....not a huge
number by any means.

I think you're working from a very early table. I count 137 stations
currently licensed to operate DTV stations on these channels. Those are
interim operations. Another 300 or so stations will be moving their DTV
operations to 7-13 from other channels, usually UHF.

Here in Arizona, there are very few
remaining after the transition. The public safety folks,
having failed to take any of the 138-174 spectrum from the
military here (Mainly because of the Army base at Ft.
Huachuca) are now looking at the possibility of getting some
of that 174-216. I doubt that it will happen though.

I count eight. There are nine analog stations currently operating in tha
t
spectrum in the state.

To pick two more states more or less at random:

Kansas: 11 analog stations in 7-13 today.
2 interim DTV operations in 7-13 today.
13 permanent DTV operations in 7-13 after transition.

Pennsylvania:
7 analog stations in 7-13 today.
4 interim DTV operations in 7-13 today.
9 permanent DTV operations in 7-13 after transition.

Yes, there is no deadline yet, and the Commission hasn't indicated if
they will eventually set a firm deadline for LPTV and Translators. Ther
e
are a huge number of translators in northwest Arizona.....at a cost of
over $3,000 each to convert the translators times about 50, plus the
LPTV stuff in the Phoenix and Tucson metro areas. I think the FCC will
allow at least 5 years, if not more, unless they're in the 60's
spectrum. However, they're mostly already chased out of that area.

From a FCC document dated February 11th:
"While the February 17, 2009 deadline for ending analog broadcasts does
not apply to low-power, Class A, and TV translator stations, the FCC will
require these stations to convert to digital broadcasting sometime
thereafter. ... The FCC is currently considering the remaining issues inv
olved with the
low-power digital transition and will make decisions regarding these
stations in the future. "

I read that as meaning that they *will* set a firm deadline.

My two-year figure, on the other hand, is just my gut feeling. Your five
year + figure could well be right. (but I doubt it)

"Doug Smith W9WI" wrote in message
news On Wed, 02 Jul 2008 16:35:34 -0400, Rick T wrote:
Well, I count about 60 stations licensed for high-power
digital TV operations nationwide on 7-13.....not a huge
number by any means.

I think you're working from a very early table. I count 137 stations
currently licensed to operate DTV stations on these channels. Those are
interim operations. Another 300 or so stations will be moving their DTV
operations to 7-13 from other channels, usually UHF.

Here in Arizona, there are very few
remaining after the transition. The public safety folks,
having failed to take any of the 138-174 spectrum from the
military here (Mainly because of the Army base at Ft.
Huachuca) are now looking at the possibility of getting some
of that 174-216. I doubt that it will happen though.

I count eight. There are nine analog stations currently operating in tha
t
spectrum in the state.

To pick two more states more or less at random:

Kansas: 11 analog stations in 7-13 today.
2 interim DTV operations in 7-13 today.
13 permanent DTV operations in 7-13 after transition.

Pennsylvania:
7 analog stations in 7-13 today.
4 interim DTV operations in 7-13 today.
9 permanent DTV operations in 7-13 after transition.
----------------------------------------
Well, here in Southern California (Los Angeles + San Diego), each of 7-13 is
actually occupied with a full-power TV station and will continue to be. The
odd channels are for LA and the evens for SD (12 for Tijuana, Mexico).

The best grab we could hope for is perhaps "Channel 2" - at 54-60 MHz and
being adjacent to our 6 meter band.

On Thu, 03 Jul 2008 18:53:44 -0400, D. Stussy wrote:
Well, here in Southern California (Los Angeles + San Diego), each of 7-
13 is
actually occupied with a full-power TV station and will continue to be.
The
odd channels are for LA and the evens for SD (12 for Tijuana, Mexico).

At least the interim channel for the Tijuana station is 32 - it's unclear
to me as to whether Mexican stations will be allowed to return their DTV
operations to their current analog channels.

"Doug Smith W9WI" wrote in message
news On Thu, 03 Jul 2008 18:53:44 -0400, D. Stussy wrote:
Well, here in Southern California (Los Angeles + San Diego), each of 7-
13 is
actually occupied with a full-power TV station and will continue to be.
The
odd channels are for LA and the evens for SD (12 for Tijuana, Mexico).

At least the interim channel for the Tijuana station is 32 - it's unclear
to me as to whether Mexican stations will be allowed to return their DTV
operations to their current analog channels.

"What DTV operations?" Mexico decided to keep analog TV through 2025.

On Fri, 04 Jul 2008 17:57:59 -0400, D. Stussy wrote:

"Doug Smith W9WI" wrote in message
news On Thu, 03 Jul 2008 18:53:44 -0400, D. Stussy wrote:
Well, here in Southern California (Los Angeles + San Diego), each of 7
-
13 is
actually occupied with a full-power TV station and will continue to be
..
The
odd channels are for LA and the evens for SD (12 for Tijuana, Mexico).

At least the interim channel for the Tijuana station is 32 - it's uncle
ar
to me as to whether Mexican stations will be allowed to return their DT
V
operations to their current analog channels.

"What DTV operations?" Mexico decided to keep analog TV through 2025.

Mexico is phasing in DTV just as we are - they're just taking a lot longe
r
to do it. There is already a full slate of DTV stations in Tijuana -
starting with XETV's on channel 23. DTV stations are on the air in
several other border cities (Juarez, for one) and in Monterrey.

If they don't change their rules before then, there will indeed continue
to be analog TV stations in Mexico until 2025 - but by then there will
also be a full complement of digital stations.

"Doug Smith W9WI" wrote in message
news On Fri, 04 Jul 2008 17:57:59 -0400, D. Stussy wrote:
"Doug Smith W9WI" wrote in message
news On Thu, 03 Jul 2008 18:53:44 -0400, D. Stussy wrote:
Well, here in Southern California (Los Angeles + San Diego), each of 7
-
13 is
actually occupied with a full-power TV station and will continue to be
..
The
odd channels are for LA and the evens for SD (12 for Tijuana, Mexico).

At least the interim channel for the Tijuana station is 32 - it's uncle
ar
to me as to whether Mexican stations will be allowed to return their DT
V
operations to their current analog channels.

"What DTV operations?" Mexico decided to keep analog TV through 2025.

Mexico is phasing in DTV just as we are - they're just taking a lot longe
r
to do it. There is already a full slate of DTV stations in Tijuana -
starting with XETV's on channel 23. DTV stations are on the air in
several other border cities (Juarez, for one) and in Monterrey.

If they don't change their rules before then, there will indeed continue
to be analog TV stations in Mexico until 2025 - but by then there will
also be a full complement of digital stations.

---------
Only U.S. border-sharing areas will have DTV, because it's for stations that
have U.S. reception. TWIAR reported about 2 months ago that Mexico actually
passed a referendum NOT to consider a change in non-border-sharing areas
until 2025.

On Sun, 13 Jul 2008 11:01:24 -0400, D. Stussy wrote:
Only U.S. border-sharing areas will have DTV, because it's for stations
that
have U.S. reception. TWIAR reported about 2 months ago that Mexico act
ually
passed a referendum NOT to consider a change in non-border-sharing area
s
until 2025.

I know of no such referendum. I have to presume TWIAR misinterpreted
something...

See the official Mexican government list:
http://www.cofetel.gob.mx/wb/Cofetel...elevision_digi
tal_in

which shows eight stations in Mexico City; five in Guadaljara; and six in
Monterrey. None of these are close enough to the border to have any
audience in the U.S.. (except, possibly, for the Monterrey stations
during tropo openings!)

This list correlates well with press releases like this one:
http://broadcastengineering.com/RF/G...-DTV-20060222/

which indicate that as of two years ago, DTV transmitters were already
installed and operating in the three major interior cities. (and Tijuana
)

Doug Smith W9WI wrote:
On Wed, 02 Jul 2008 16:35:34 -0400, Rick T wrote:
Well, I count about 60 stations licensed for high-power
digital TV operations nationwide on 7-13.....not a huge
number by any means.

I think you're working from a very early table. I count 137 stations
currently licensed to operate DTV stations on these channels. Those are
interim operations. Another 300 or so stations will be moving their DTV
operations to 7-13 from other channels, usually UHF.

Here in Arizona, there are very few
remaining after the transition. The public safety folks,
having failed to take any of the 138-174 spectrum from the
military here (Mainly because of the Army base at Ft.
Huachuca) are now looking at the possibility of getting some
of that 174-216. I doubt that it will happen though.

I count eight. There are nine analog stations currently operating in tha
t
spectrum in the state.

To pick two more states more or less at random:

Kansas: 11 analog stations in 7-13 today.
2 interim DTV operations in 7-13 today.
13 permanent DTV operations in 7-13 after transition.

Pennsylvania:
7 analog stations in 7-13 today.
4 interim DTV operations in 7-13 today.
9 permanent DTV operations in 7-13 after transition.

Yes, there is no deadline yet, and the Commission hasn't indicated if
they will eventually set a firm deadline for LPTV and Translators. Ther
e
are a huge number of translators in northwest Arizona.....at a cost of
over $3,000 each to convert the translators times about 50, plus the
LPTV stuff in the Phoenix and Tucson metro areas. I think the FCC will
allow at least 5 years, if not more, unless they're in the 60's
spectrum. However, they're mostly already chased out of that area.

From a FCC document dated February 11th:
"While the February 17, 2009 deadline for ending analog broadcasts does
not apply to low-power, Class A, and TV translator stations, the FCC will
require these stations to convert to digital broadcasting sometime
thereafter. ... The FCC is currently considering the remaining issues inv
olved with the
low-power digital transition and will make decisions regarding these
stations in the future. "

I read that as meaning that they *will* set a firm deadline.

My two-year figure, on the other hand, is just my gut feeling. Your five
year + figure could well be right. (but I doubt it)


Well Doug, I noticed that on the FCC's 1999 R&O on DTV, they
said that they would have another ruling dealing with
Translators and LPTV "very shortly". Let's see, it's now
2008, and counting. :)

My count is from a 2007 listing found on the FCC's
website.....but, the wildcard may be the number of VHF
analog stations who got their DTV allocation at UHF, but,
once the transition is complete, may want to move back to
VHF for it's better propagation
characteristics.....particularly the 7-13 channels.


Rick T.