On 2010-01-06, Bert Hyman wrote:

Exclusive? How so?

Nobody has to be invited to actually use CW on the air. Membership in
this or any other club is not required.

True, however, 'exclusive' is implied in the bylaws that call for nomination
for membership, pop tests to prove competancy, etc. It's just another form
of cronyism by a handful of folks not happy that the hazing requirement to
obtain HF privileges has been removed.

Nothing wrong with it but the result will be the same hundred old guys who
all belong to the same tired hundred clubs all with the same stated purpose
of "saving" ham radio by protecting and promoting Morse.

Been there, done that, got the shirt and it still doesn't work...

If people don't use CW, it's because they don't want to, not because
someone won't let them.

Also true. Now if I could just make a few contacts without being shaken down
for my FISTS, SKCC, NAQCC, etc, etc, etc, numbers....

73,
--
Jeff, KE9V

On Jan 6, 11:12 am, Jeff Davis wrote:

True, however, 'exclusive' is implied in the bylaws that call for nominat
ion
for membership, pop tests to prove competancy, etc. It's just another for
m
of cronyism by a handful of folks not happy that the hazing requirement t
o
obtain HF privileges has been removed.

Then don't join.

Almost *any* nontrivial requirement is bound to be labeled a "hazing
ritual", "cronyism", "luddite" or other derogatory term by somebody.

Now if I could just make a few contacts without being shaken down
for my FISTS, SKCC, NAQCC, etc, etc, etc, numbers....

You can have a QSO with me, then. I have a bunch of those numbers but I
don't ask folks for them during QSOs unless there's a specific
reason (such as they ask me).

IIRC the whole exchanging-numbers deal came from the Ten-Ten folks,
who mostly use 'phone...

73 de Jim, N2EY

On 2010-01-06, wrote:

You can have a QSO with me, then. I have a bunch of those numbers but I
don't ask folks for them during QSOs unless there's a specific
reason (such as they ask me).

I'd like that very much Jim!

At 50 I don't think I'm the oldest guy in the room but it sure seems like a
long time since I enjoyed a QSO without being asked if I had this or that
number to exchange. And I blame that on the endless string of little CW
clubs that sprout like mushrooms in the spring...

Perhaps that's why I was being a little too hard on this latest club venture.

Apologies if any were offended.

73,
--
Jeff, KE9V

In Jeff Davis
wrote:

At 50 I don't think I'm the oldest guy in the room but it sure seems
like a long time since I enjoyed a QSO without being asked if I had
this or that number to exchange. And I blame that on the endless
string of little CW clubs that sprout like mushrooms in the spring...


I've been around for a while myself (licensed 49 years -today!) and
have adopted and dropped many operating roles in that time. I'm
currently strictly a CW operator, recently gave up chasing DX due to
the lack of sunspots, and I'm now trying contesting. So, it's been a
while since I've had a "real" QSO.

Still, if I slide up above 14025, I find US CW operators, obviously
relative newcomers, holding what I'd certainly call traditional
person-to-person conversations on CW. You know that since they don't
have to operate CW any more, they're there because they like it. There's
certainly a similar neighborhood on 40 or elsewhere where you'll find
the same sort of activity.

I'm sure any one of them would welcome the chance to have an extended
chat with anyone who's willing to slow down a bit and would probably
benefit from the chance to listen to "good" CW. And, I doubt that any of
them have any numbers to exchange :-)

--
Bert Hyman W0RSB St. Paul, MN

On Jan 6, 12:17 pm, wrote:
On Jan 6, 11:12 am, Jeff Davis wrote:



True, however, 'exclusive' is implied in the bylaws that call for nomin
ation
for membership, pop tests to prove competancy, etc. It's just another f
orm
of cronyism by a handful of folks not happy that the hazing requirement
to
obtain HF privileges has been removed.

Then don't join.

I surely won't. and not for "hazing". I don't see any hazing in
effect here, because the requirements are already attained by
prospective members. I will note that the potential tests the pledge
might have to take, depending on the will of their sponsors is just
odd. There should be a competency test, or their shouldn't be.


Almost *any* nontrivial requirement is bound to be labeled a "hazing
ritual", "cronyism", "luddite" or other derogatory term by somebody.

Kind of. I think a large part of the discussion, at least for me, is
the idea that this club furthers the use of Morse code. They state it
as one of their purposes. I don't think that their tactic will work.

I'd even go so far as to state that I don't really care if they are an
exclusive club. That's no problem. There is a need for people of a
like mind to congregate. But if a club is one thing while purporting
to be another, I'm inclined to remark about it.

On Jan 7, 11:17�am, "Michael J. Coslo" wrote:
On Jan 6, 12:17 pm, wrote:

I will note that the potential tests the pledge
might have to take, depending on the will of their sponsors is just
odd. There should be a competency test, or their shouldn't be.

I don't think it's odd, but that's just me. If somebody wants to know
my Morse Code skills, I can tell them. If that's not enough, I can
show them.

Almost *any* nontrivial requirement is bound to be labeled a "hazing
ritual", "cronyism", "luddite" or other derogatory term by somebody.

Kind of. I think a large part of the discussion, at least for me, is
the idea that this club furthers the use of Morse code. They state it
as one of their purposes. I don't think that their tactic will work.

Only way to know is to try.

I'd even go so far as to state that I don't really care if they are an
exclusive club. That's no problem. There is a need for people of a
like mind to congregate. But if a club is one thing while purporting
to be another, I'm inclined to remark about it.

Here's an analogy:

I just came in from a morning run. Not to far and not too fast but
definitely running. It's in the twenties here but the sun is out, the
roads are clear of yesterday's snow and the wind isn't too bad. What we
used to call "sweater weather" in western New York State.

There are all sorts of running/jogging clubs and organizations today,
with a wide range of membership requirements. Some are mostly social,
some are general purpose, some focus on competition, some are strictly
about track, cross-country, road racing, etc. All are involved in some
way in promoting running in various forms.

Suppose a club were to form which focused on long distance running,
defined as those who routinely do runs longer than 13.1 miles (half-
marathon and up). Maybe they toss in requirements of having completed
at least one TAC-certified marathon "or equivalent".

Obviously a lot of people who run couldn't join unless they seriously
upped their distance. The membership would be relatively small, but
focused on a specific kind of running.

Seems to me that such a club could and would promote running,
particularly long-distance running. I don't see how that would be a
bad thing.

The new Morse Code club described is similar, IMHO.

---

One thing I have observed among amateurs actually *using* Morse Code is
the friendship and comaraderie (sp?) and general welcoming. I don't
hear the put-downs and such that are claimed by others - not on the
air, anyway. Young or old, newcomer or OT, fast or slow, QRP or high
power, it doesn't make any difference.

The one thing that *does* make a difference among the Morse-Code-using
ops I encounter is consideration and operating skill. Meaning things
like not calling the DX on his frequency when he's working split, not
sending faster than you can receive, having a decent quality signal,
etc. An operator cannot buy those things.

That's one of the things that hooked me on Morse Code more than 42
years ago, and keeps me coming back.

73 de Jim, N2EY

FISTS 4360
SKCC 307
SOC 895

On Jan 9, 10:51 am, wrote:
On Jan 7, 11:17 am, "Michael J. Coslo" wrote:

On Jan 6, 12:17 pm, wrote:

I will note that the potential tests the pledge
might have to take, depending on the will of their sponsors is just
odd. There should be a competency test, or their shouldn't be.

I don't think it's odd, but that's just me. If somebody wants to know
my Morse Code skills, I can tell them. If that's not enough, I can
show them.

Maybe it's because I am in a college town, and being around
fraternities, the word "test" has more than one meaning, Fraternities
often have tests that really filter out who wants to join, and who
doesn't It's one of those red flag words.



Almost *any* nontrivial requirement is bound to be labeled a "hazing
ritual", "cronyism", "luddite" or other derogatory term by somebody.

Kind of. I think a large part of the discussion, at least for me, is
the idea that this club furthers the use of Morse code. They state it
as one of their purposes. I don't think that their tactic will work.

Only way to know is to try.

Well, yeah. but if I were to promote Morse, I'd do it to people at the
other end of the spectrum.


I'd even go so far as to state that I don't really care if they are an
exclusive club. That's no problem. There is a need for people of a
like mind to congregate. But if a club is one thing while purporting
to be another, I'm inclined to remark about it.

some snippage

Obviously a lot of people who run couldn't join unless they seriously
upped their distance. The membership would be relatively small, but
focused on a specific kind of running.

Seems to me that such a club could and would promote running,
particularly long-distance running. I don't see how that would be a
bad thing.

The new Morse Code club described is similar, IMHO.

I guess w';ll just have to disagree, Jim. let me try a different
analogy.

If I wanted to have an exclusive club, one in which I and others who I
thought had made the grade, and that I wanted to be around, without
annoying new people, I would design it to have a minimum requirement
well beyond what the base requirement was - keeping in mind that the
original test was gone. Then I would have something like prospective
members have to be nominated by people who are already club members. I
would do this in order to be sure that only the right people got in.

Is this the case here? Not necessarily, but who knows.


One thing I have observed among amateurs actually *using* Morse Code is
the friendship and comaraderie (sp?) and general welcoming. I don't
hear the put-downs and such that are claimed by others - not on the
air, anyway. Young or old, newcomer or OT, fast or slow, QRP or high
power, it doesn't make any difference.

Well, my experience has been a little different. On the air, it hasn't
been too bad, but in person, I've been told that despite what I do for
amateur radio, I am a second class Ham because I'm not a regular user
of CW. I've been told that my physical issues notwithstanding, I can
never be a first class Ham, because it is like an athlete. Not
everyone can be a professional football player, because not everyone
has the physical attributes. My hearing precludes me being a real Ham.

And believe it or not, I was once called insane because I gave the
same number of QSO points to RTTY and PSK31 QSO's for scoring a
contest. That's the exact wording. Some of these folks wanted the
double point value to be exclusively for CW Ops, and were outraged
that I offered it to any other modes. That was personally
disappointing to say the least, because I've always stood up for the
mode.

Now as far as that goes, no problem. I'm opinionated and realize that
the nail that sticks up is the one that gets the hammer. For me, it's
just data points. I appreciate the mode, and will continue to support
and promote it, because of it's historical, practical, and technical
value. But I've learned to not expect any appreciation for that.
Anyhow, it's been a good thread.

-73 de Mike N3LI -

On Jan 11, 6:48�pm, "Michael J. Coslo" wrote:

Maybe it's because I am in a college town, and being around
fraternities, the word "test" has more than one meaning,
Fraternities
often have tests that really filter out who wants to join, and who
doesn't It's one of those red flag words.

Ah - good point.

if I were to promote Morse, I'd do it to people at the
other end of the spectrum.

Clubs like FISTS and SKCC do that.

I guess w';ll just have to disagree, Jim.

No problem!

let me try a different analogy.

If I wanted to have an exclusive club, one in
which I and others who I
thought had made the grade, and that I
wanted to be around, without
annoying new people, I would design it to
have a minimum requirement
well beyond what the base requirement
was - keeping in mind that the
original test was gone. Then I would
have something like prospective
members have to be nominated by
people who are already club members.

Which raises the proverbial chicken-and-egg question of how the club
could ever get started....

I
would do this in order to be sure
that only the right people got in.

Is this the case here? Not necessarily, but who knows.

One thing is for su the club appears to be growing fast. I printed
out the member roster a few days ago, and already it's way outdated
because there's a lot more members.

N2EY previously wrote:

One thing I have observed among amateurs
actually *using* Morse Code is
the friendship and comaraderie (sp?) and
general welcoming. I don't
hear the put-downs and such that are
claimed by others - not on the
air, anyway. Young or old, newcomer or
OT, fast or slow, QRP or high
power, it doesn't make any difference.

Well, my experience has been a little different.
On the air, it hasn't
been too bad, but in person, I've been told that
despite what I do for
amateur radio, I am a second class Ham
because I'm not a regular user
of CW.

I've been told that my physical issues notwithstanding, I can
never be a first class Ham, because it is like an athlete. Not
everyone can be a professional football player, because not
everyone
has the physical attributes. My hearing precludes me being
a real Ham.

I disagree with that very strongly!

Of course not everybody can be a world-class athlete nor even a
"professional" one. But almost everyone can be an athlete at somelevel.

I agree with Bill Rodgers, the famous marathoner (won Boston a couple
times IIRC). When someone asked him who *he* admires, he pointed to the
folks who run a marathon in four hours, as compared to his two-
hours-and-change. He said something on the order of 'they're out there
twice as long as I am, trying just as hard!'

And believe it or not, I was once called insane
because I gave the
same number of QSO points to RTTY and
PSK31 QSO's for scoring a
contest. That's the exact wording.

I've been called a lot worse, and a lot more times, for a lot less.

Some of these folks wanted the
double point value to be exclusively for CW Ops,
and were outraged
that I offered it to any other modes. That was personally
disappointing to say the least, because I've always stood up for the mo
de.

The operative word there is "some".

IMHO, when a person resorts to things like name-calling and personal
insults, it really says a lot more about the name-caller than the name-
callee. (if that's even a word).

Now as far as that goes, no problem. I'm
opinionated and realize that
the nail that sticks up is the one that gets
the hammer. For me, it's
just data points. I appreciate the mode,
and will continue to support
and promote it, because of it's historical,
practical, �and technical
value.

That's good.

But I've learned to not expect any appreciation for that.

Well, I appreciate it!

One of these years the PA QSO party will fall on a weekend when I don't
have ten other things going on - and then watch out!

Anyhow, it's been a good thread.

It's not over yet...

73 de Jim, N2EY

Michael J. Coslo wrote:

If I wanted to have an exclusive club, one in which I and others who I
thought had made the grade, and that I wanted to be around, without
annoying new people, I would design it to have a minimum requirement
well beyond what the base requirement was - keeping in mind that the
original test was gone. Then I would have something like prospective
members have to be nominated by people who are already club members. I
would do this in order to be sure that only the right people got in.

Is this the case here? Not necessarily, but who knows.

It looks to me like your words exactly describe the membership
requirements for the new organization. I'm assuming that the mention of
competency testing is really only for show.

And fine, if that's what these folks want, then they have as much right
to organize as any other group. It's not something that turns my crank,
but that just means that I won't join.

Well, my experience has been a little different. On the air, it hasn't
been too bad, but in person, I've been told that despite what I do for
amateur radio, I am a second class Ham because I'm not a regular user
of CW. I've been told that my physical issues notwithstanding, I can
never be a first class Ham, because it is like an athlete. Not
everyone can be a professional football player, because not everyone
has the physical attributes. My hearing precludes me being a real Ham.

I'm sorry to hear that. There are a lot of hams out there, and any time
you get a large group of humans together, you're going to find a certain
number of insensitive idiots. Frankly I think there are more hams at
both ends of the normal curve than in the general population. That
means that there are more idiots, but there are more Really Good People.

You might be interested that my experience has been exactly the opposite
here in the local ham group. There is exactly one other cw operator in
the club, and he only shows up at the Field Day operation. The club
members ridicule cw. They think it is completely stupid and cannot
understand why anyone would use it. Their term for cw ops is "no talkers".

And believe it or not, I was once called insane because I gave the
same number of QSO points to RTTY and PSK31 QSO's for scoring a
contest. That's the exact wording. Some of these folks wanted the
double point value to be exclusively for CW Ops, and were outraged
that I offered it to any other modes. That was personally
disappointing to say the least, because I've always stood up for the
mode.

Designing the rules for a contest is one of those classic lose/lose
situations. Not that there's any excuse for someone using the term
"insane", but if you had done it the other way and kept the bonus
exclusively for cw then it would have been the RTTY and PSK31 ops who
were upset. You can't please all of the people . . .

Now as far as that goes, no problem. I'm opinionated and realize that
the nail that sticks up is the one that gets the hammer. For me, it's
just data points. I appreciate the mode, and will continue to support
and promote it, because of it's historical, practical, and technical
value. But I've learned to not expect any appreciation for that.
Anyhow, it's been a good thread.

Agreed completely.