Scotty, I need more power
 

On 11/25/2011 11:35 PM, Bill Horne wrote:
There is, of course, a "two-hundred pound gorilla" in the room: fuel
costs are usually minor compared to the cost of spoiled food, frozen
pipes, etc., so let me reassure everyone that I'm not looking for a
tiny difference. I'm just worried about getting a $1,000 gas bill if I
run a natural-gas powered generator for a week: we're not in need of a
fine-grained analysis here.

Ok, first off, an assumption. I'll go with the numbers I know.
My Honda EX4500S takes roughly 1 gallon / hour.
1 week = 168 hours.
168 hours x $3.50/gallon = $588.00

I stumbled across a "Cost of heating" chart, and I'm going to
assume that the relative fuel costs for heating would be similar.
So...

Gasoline = $588
Diesel = $620
Natural Gas = $582
Propane = $536
Electricity = $90

The differences are fairly small compared to one another. The real
problem is the apparent 15% efficiency of running a generator vs
using the wall outlet.

Jeff-1.0
wa6fwi

--
"Everything from Crackers to Coffins"

Scotty, I need more power
 

On 11/25/2011 11:09 PM, Bill Horne wrote:
It pays to check: I looked at a Briggs and Stratton 7KW unit that runs
on propane, and was astonished to see a noise rating of 72 db. The unit
is completely enclosed, and is intended for permanent installation, so
it boggles my mind that anyone would buy one unless they intend to have
a sound-dampening enclosure built around it after the installation.

Yuppers, remember when I said build a fake BBQ unit to enclose things?

Again, the Honda EX4500S I have is rated at less than 52 dB. That's
moderately quiet and I find it easy to ignore.

Roughly, the Empire 12 KW genset with the Wisconsin VF4D engine was
not much noisier with an automotive muffler attached to it.

Jeff-1.0
wa6fwi

--
"Everything from Crackers to Coffins"

Scotty, I need more power
 

On 11/26/2011 2:28 AM, Jeffrey Angus wrote:
On 11/25/2011 11:35 PM, Bill Horne wrote:
There is, of course, a "two-hundred pound gorilla" in the room: fuel
costs are usually minor compared to the cost of spoiled food, frozen
pipes, etc., so let me reassure everyone that I'm not looking for a
tiny difference. I'm just worried about getting a $1,000 gas bill if I
run a natural-gas powered generator for a week: we're not in need of a
fine-grained analysis here.

Ok, first off, an assumption. I'll go with the numbers I know.
My Honda EX4500S takes roughly 1 gallon / hour.
1 week = 168 hours.
168 hours x $3.50/gallon = $588.00

I stumbled across a "Cost of heating" chart, and I'm going to
assume that the relative fuel costs for heating would be similar.
So...

Gasoline = $588
Diesel = $620
Natural Gas = $582
Propane = $536
Electricity = $90

The differences are fairly small compared to one another. The real
problem is the apparent 15% efficiency of running a generator vs
using the wall outlet.

Jeff,

Thanks for the info. That's a good comparison.

Now what I need is information about the /reliability/ of the various
products and models. What /really/ scares me is the chance of finding
out that I bought a "light duty" engine that has just thrown a rod in
the middle of Field Day. Does anyone have a side-by-side
comparison of the various makes and models, along with a "plain
English" explanation of what code words like "emergency service"
mean?

TIA.

73,

Bill, W1AC

--
Bill Horne
(Remove QRM from my address to write to me directly)

Scotty, I need more power
 

On 11/26/2011 10:29 AM, Bill Horne wrote:
Thanks for the info. That's a good comparison.

Now what I need is information about the /reliability/ of the various
products and models. What /really/ scares me is the chance of finding
out that I bought a "light duty" engine that has just thrown a rod in
the middle of Field Day. Does anyone have a side-by-side
comparison of the various makes and models, along with a "plain
English" explanation of what code words like "emergency service"
mean?

That takes a bit of digging and interpretation.

Simply put though, All 5000 watt generators claim to put
out 5000 watts. Most will say "Peak" NOT "continuous."

Secondly, check the physical HP size of the motor they
use for said "continuous" output.

As an example... Three generators rated at 5000 watts.

Brand X 4000 watts continuous. 8 HP

Brand Y 4500 watts continuous. 10 HP

Brand Z 3500 watts continuous. 7 HP

I would go with Brand Y. Brand X has a smaller engine so
it's going to work harder, even at 4000 watts, and Brand
Z is just an engine failure waiting to happen.

"Emergency Service" either means it's a reliable set up,
or it's marketing speak for unreliable. It can also mean
the engine/generator isn't really designed for continuous
duty. Which is kind of silly considering that in the event
of an emergency, you NEED to run the stuff continuously.


Jeff-1.0
wa6fwi

--
"Everything from Crackers to Coffins"

Scotty, I need more power
 

On 11/25/2011 11:50 PM, Bill Horne wrote:

OB Ham Radio: dogs used for Search-and-Rescue and crowd-control can
cause problems with Emcom, since some hams aren't qualified to be around
them. This goes back to the issue of training prior to deployment: if
you're not comfortable around dogs, search-and-rescue may be a problem
for you.

73,

Bill, W1AC

Never even thought about that.. But as for being comfortable around
dogs.. Well.. I've been bit twice,,, Neither time serious, one time was
actually an accident and my fault. I am very comfortable around dogs.

--
Nothing adds Excitement like something that is none of your business.

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Scotty, I need more power
 

On 11/26/2011 12:09 AM, Bill Horne wrote:

What I want is a tri-fuel unit that will run on propane, diesel, or gas,
which has a sound rating below 60 db, which runs eight hours between
refuelings, and which costs less than $700. It's like the old joke from
the System Administrators: "'No bugs', 'Meets spec', 'On deadline': pick
two".

73,

Bill, W1AC


Finding one that runs on Gas, Diesel or Propane is going to be a
problem. Gas/Propane yes, Those/Diesel, not so easy.
--
Nothing adds Excitement like something that is none of your business.

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Checked by AVG - www.avg.com
Version: 2012.0.1873 / Virus Database: 2102/4647 - Release Date: 11/29/11

Scotty, I need more power
 

On 11/29/2011 7:51 PM, John Davis wrote:
On 11/26/2011 12:09 AM, Bill Horne wrote:

What I want is a tri-fuel unit that will run on propane, diesel, or gas,
which has a sound rating below 60 db, which runs eight hours between
refuelings, and which costs less than $700. It's like the old joke from
the System Administrators: "'No bugs', 'Meets spec', 'On deadline': pick
two".

Finding one that runs on Gas, Diesel or Propane is going to be a
problem. Gas/Propane yes, Those/Diesel, not so easy.

Right now, I'd settle for any genset that won't break my budget and will
serve the purpose for three years. I was, of course, joking, but it
really does seem to be "Pick two": reliability and price come at the
expense of noise, etc.

For now, I'm looking around and hoping for an overstock sale that gets
me past my point of pain.

Bill, W1AC

--
Bill Horne
(Remove QRM from my address to write to me directly)

Scotty, I need more power
 

On 11/29/2011 9:27 PM, Bill Horne wrote:

Right now, I'd settle for any genset that won't break my budget
and will serve the purpose for three years.

I would suggest the Honda "really quiet" series and then size it
at the minimum requirement for the heaviest load (by itself) then
select what runs at any given time instead of that.

(This is based on the serious bugaboo of cost/hour for fuel.)

Jeff

--
"Everything from Crackers to Coffins"

Scotty, I need more power
 

On 11/29/2011 10:37 PM, Jeffrey Angus wrote:
On 11/29/2011 9:27 PM, Bill Horne wrote:

Right now, I'd settle for any genset that won't break my budget
and will serve the purpose for three years.

I would suggest the Honda "really quiet" series and then size it
at the minimum requirement for the heaviest load (by itself) then
select what runs at any given time instead of that.

(This is based on the serious bugaboo of cost/hour for fuel.)

Fuel costs aren't cheap, but that's less of a factor than you
might think: after all, when the power /is/ out, the cost of
fuel is balanced against the chance of freezing pipes or
spoiled food. Plus, frankly, there's more than a little bit
of "lookit me" factor: during the recent outage, even though
I was making do with a tiny 2KW set, the XYL was more than
happy that /her/ lights were on when everyone else's
were out.

Fuel consumption figures for gasoline gensets range from
0.5 gal/hour up to 1 gal/hour for the range of sets I'm
looking at: not cheap, but not a deal-breaker either[1].
Natural gas would run about $1/hour for my area, but the
gensets I've seen which will run on that fuel have
extraordinarily high noise ratings: one is 84 dba at
23 feet away!

This whole exercise reminds me of a public debate about
the appropriate size of a breakwater for a seaside
community: a Category-5 hurricane is "maybe", and
"someday", but the cost of cement is /right/ /now/.
The hardest part is figuring out how likely a power
failure is, and whether it is likely to last long
enough to cause a major loss.

73,

Bill, W1AC

1. If anyone knows how to get "off road" gasoline, where
the price doesn't include road taxes, please tell me. They
have "off road" diesel fuel, but I don't know about gas.

--
Bill Horne
(Remove QRM from my address to write to me directly)

Scotty, I need more power
 

On 11/29/2011 11:19 PM, Bill Horne wrote:
Plus, frankly, there's more than a little bit
of "lookit me" factor: during the recent outage, even though
I was making do with a tiny 2KW set, the XYL was more than
happy that /her/ lights were on when everyone else's
were out.

Back in Culver City living with a friend. We had a short power
outage at their place. Christmas eve.

I fired up the EX4500S generator with the transfer switch
and lit up all 750 watts of Christmas lights around the
house.

We were the ONLY Christmas lights you could see for a mile
in any direction.

Yes, that definitely won me some "Atta-boy" points.

Also, the costs of transfer switches being what they are, Bill
sent me a WONDERFUL link of an innovative kit for retro-fitting
your existing service panel.

I have to spread this one around.

http://www.interlockkit.com/intro2.htm

Also, check the links section for some very good information on
not killing yourself or your utility workers.

Jeff-1.0
wa6fwi

--
"Everything from Crackers to Coffins"