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Scotty, I need more power
It started on Saturday night, with a finger-poke and my wife saying
"Bill, the power is out". It ended at about three am today, when I noticed that the streetlight was on and I went and threw the transfer switch back to commercial power. I leaned a lot during the power failure, and I invite comments and discussion to help other hams who are preparing for the coming winter and for public service events. My first response to my wife's report was to tell her that there is a flashlight on top of my tool chest in the cellar, and to roll over and pull the blanket tighter. That was the first of many mistakes I made in the next 57 hours. ;-) We have a large candle on the headboard of our bed, which I placed there last year so as to have light during a power failure. So, when I was told that I was expected to do something about the blackout, and that my tool chest was too far away to reach in the dark, I naturally assumed that the candle would provide adequate lighting. In times past, most American men would have a cigarette lighter or a book of matches in their pants pocket. Times have changed, and I with them, so I don't carry matches as a rule. I therefore went on a groping expedition to try to find some matches to light the candle so that I could find my way to the flashlight and thereafter to a solution for my lack of sleep and my wife's need to arise at 5 am. I have an electric stove, so there was no pilot light burning from which I could light a candle. My hot-water heater has a pilot flame, but it is located next to my tool chest in the basement of my home, and seemed a long way away at that moment. After a few minutes of debate, we compromised: I was able to find a battery-operated alarm clock that I keep for travel, and set it up for the appropriate hour thanks to it's internal push-button lighting. We spent the next several minutes listening to the oddly quiet "Thump" of frosty-sized balls of snow falling off the trees in our back yard, and then I drifted off to sleep while congratulation myself for being energy-efficient and having quilts and covers that would keep me comfortable. I woke with my wife shaking my shoulder and pushing the alarm clock in my face and demanding that I turn it off. I did so. There was a little bit of moonlight, and a little bit of pre-dawn light, and we could just make out a sea of white, adorned with patches of dark that made me think some giant had dropped a jar of toothpicks: the trees that surround my yard had given in to the snow by saying goodbye to pieces of their branches and trunks, some as much as seven inches in diameter. There wasn't any heat, of course: very few American homes have furnaces that don't depend on electricity, no matter what fuel they burn, and mine is no exception. The snowfall had been about five inches. My wife's car was in need of cleaning, and the driveway in need of clearing, and I resigned myself to another visit in the winter wonderland. Five inches isn't much by New England standards, but it was the heaviest, wettest snow that I've ever shoveled. Even at five-something am, it was already slushy, before the sun had even come up, and I knew that if I left it, I'd have a skating rink instead of a driveway. I don't own a snowblower, and the "guy who handles mine" that my neighbor had recommended for plowing had never called me back, so I got out the shovel and went at it, just my fall jacket, and no gloves because I couldn't see where they'd gone in the dark. My wife was off to work at six am, and my driveway and stairs and front walk were cleared by seven. By then, with daylight come, it was obvious that there had been a major storm. I had lost several sections of the Oak trees in my front yard, and there were limbs torn from the Maples in the rear, a couple of them bending the fence railing that surrounds the pool. I shrugged my shoulder, and went to wheel out the generator. It was hidden behind a roll of tar paper and a hammock that someone had just tossed into the shed, behind a ladder that won't fit anywhere else, and next to sever cans of naphtha (a.k.a. "Coleman Fuel") that I had placed in my shed on general principles so that I wouldn't have to worry about fires in my basement. The shed also contains several bottles of gasoline stabilizer, some motor oil, a pint of two-stroke oil for the trimmer and leaf blower and chain saw, and a can of carburetor cleaner that comes in handy when trying to turn over the lawnmower on damp days. Everything needed to keep small gasoline-powered engines in operation. Except gasoline. I had a blue plastic jug filled with kerosene, and about a half-gallon of gas/oil mix that I had used for my leaf blower the week before, but nothing else. The five gallon gas can was bone-dry. I had used it up on the last lawn mowing of the season, and I stood there with my socks getting wet, and remember how I had thought that was a perfect end to the summer, running out of gas at exactly the right moment. My usual gas station was as dark as the rest of the town, a fact I discovered after nearly running into not one, but two separate trees that were lying across the roads in mute testimony to the irreducibility of water and the insistent nature of gravity. From the center of town, it was a game of finding somewhere with both passable streets and operating gas stations; I got back home with my prize around eight-thirty. Now, there are two really important things about connecting generators to your house's wiring: first, you have to cut off the connection to the electric pole, so that you don't electrocute any of the linemen, and second, you have to connect your generator so that it can deliver the power that the pole will not. I had met the first requirement by picking a "transer" switch out of a dumpster next to a construction site during the summer. It is a giant box at least half as big as my own electric panel, and I had mounted it on the same backboard and connected it in series with my utility feed. The second requirement, which involves having a properly connected plug into which the end of the extension cord from the generator would fit, was sitting in a bag of parts next to the Cutler-Hammer cabinet: a "next week" project that had been moving to the bottom of the "Honeydo" list as more pressing matter were added by an unseen hand. In a moment of inspiration, I retrieved the electric cord that my wife had cut through with the shrub trimmer, and opened the panel and stripped the wires and had a 120 volt feed into one of the "generator" connections all ready to go after only three-quarters of an hour juggling the flashlight and the razor knife and the screwdriver. There was, of course, only one cord available. I chose the "left" phase, and connected it to the generator, and added stabilizer to the gasoline, and checked the oil, and fired it up. Now, here's something important to think about: when you size a generator for use during a power failure, it's a good idea to pick one that can power a representative sampling of lights, and your refrigerator, and your furnace, and, if possible, a microwave oven. I had sized my generator by buying it at a yard sale, from a man who had one that was used for small electric tools at job sites before battery-operated hand tools were common. My generator is sized so that it can power the furnace, or the refrigerator, but not at the same time. With 2,500 peak watts and 2,000 continuous watts available, I had known from the start that I would need to make compromises to keep it operating properly, and so I had planned a generator connection box with two separate plugs, one for each side of the electrical box, so that I could plug the extension cord into whichever phase was most in need. As I said, that part of the plan was still in the bag of parts, and the cord I had on hand was now hard-wired to one side of the electrical service. It turned out to be the side with the refrigerator, and also the side with the kitchen lights, but not the bathroom, not the stairwell, and not the overheads that light the spot where I had placed the generator. I decided to see if I could reach the internet using my laptop computer: I was curious how widespread the outage was, but I didn't want to temp fate by turning on the TV, which was, in any case, not connected to the "live" side of my house wiring. My laptop connects to my home LAN via a wireless gateway, and I knew that the UPS I had purchased for my wife's desktop PC would run the gateway without trouble, since it's only a small twelve-volt transformer that's needed. Unfortunately, the UPS was dead, having wound itself down during the night, even though my wife's PC has a special connection to the UPS which forces it into hibernation when the power goes out. The UPS, apparently, was smart enough to tell the PC to go to sleep, but not smart enough to do so itself. No problem, I thought; I'll just hit the "on" button after I unplug my wife's PC, and run the WiFi gateway from the generator. Here's something you need to know about uninterruptible power supplies: they are incredibly finicky about the frequency of the power source that charges their batteries, and even though there is power coming in from a generator, they will only come on for a second or two until the generator surges a little or slows a little, and then the UPS will, if it has any battery capacity, switch to backup mode. That was, as my old dad used to say, not going to work with that sort of operator at the controls, so I shut it down and moved the gateway's power transformer to the "surge protect" outlets that aren't part of the battery backup. The "surge protect" outlets on that UPS are, however, part of the wiring for the on/off switch, and the UPS, which was shutting itself off every few seconds during the minute or so that it would stay on at all, wasn't willing to power even the outlets that weren't connected to the "uninterruptible" portion of its circuitry. The outlet into which the UPS is plugged is recessed into the wall, with a child-safe ring around it that I haven't needed in years, but which effectively prevents any "wall wart" transformer from fitting. Plan B: I would move the Ethernet cord that was plugged into the gateway "Internet" port directly to the laptop, obviating the need for a wireless connection. To do so, I got down on hands and knees, and crawled under my wife's desk to get at the gateway. The desk collapsed on top of me. Well, not exactly "collapsed": more like "came apart in slow motion as I watched the seams part where the pressed board was old and feeble". The desk wound up on top of my wife's PC, with the side panel tilted over at a crazy angle and the back bracing digging into my hand, stuck in the carpet inches from the Ethernet cord I had been reaching for. I heaved myself up, and the desk with me, and grabbed the gateway and used it as a wedge to support the desktop on top of the PC so that I could beat a hasty retreat while teaching the teenager next door some brand new words he did not know before. I then proceeded to remove the computer monitor and the printer and the books and the glassware, so that nothing else was showering off the structure every time I looked at it, and to make temporary repairs to the side panel, and to retrieve the Ethernet cord which I had so innocently thought was within my reach a few minutes prior. My laptop informed me that no internet connection was available. I grabbed the flashlight and went to investigate the DSL modem, which is located in my cellar, next to the telephone company demarcation point. The DSL modem was plugged into another UPS, which is the one that powers my server. I had run a web site for my son's Boy Scout Troop a few years back, and the UPS was still there even though the server is only turned on for backups these days. So, another UPS, feeding another gateway and the DSL modem. Which was, of course, as dead as the first one. No problem, though, the cellar outlets have no child-safe rings on them, so I simply moved the ADSL modem's transformer to the wall outlet. Which was, in short order, ascertained to be on the side of my panel which was not connected to the generator. I decided to let my refrigerator continue to cool, and to enjoy a meal at my favorite restaurant, a place that serves marvelous french toast and very good coffee. Except, since it had no power, it was closed. There was a scribbled sign on the door, with a "try back later" message. I got back in my car and made my way to a place two towns over that, according to the two-meter repeater, still had power. It took a thirty-two minute wait before I was seated: so many other suburbanites had found themselves in the same boat as I that the line was, literally, "out the door". I occupied my self with a notebook, drawing sketches of my electrical system and making notes of how I could most efficiently switch the generator between the furnace and the fridge. After a wonderful breakfast, I went back home, and found the generator silent: it was out of gas. I refilled the tank, moved the wire at the end of the extension cord from the "left" to the "right" side of the power bus, and fired it up again. The DSL modem came to life, as did the furnace, but my laptop didn't have the "PPPOE" software required to connect directly to the Internet and there was no spare outlet to plug in the wall-wart for the router which always handled that in the past, so I gave up and decided I would do without the net for a while. Then, suddenly tired after the shoveling and the desk collapse and the French Toast, I went back to bed. I was woken up by my wife, who returned home from work with food that she had bought ready-made at the grocery store. She told me that the first two stores she went to were all sold out of prepared foods, but she had been able to get a pre-cooked chicken and some cole slaw at a third. We ate dinner, basking in the warmth our radiators were giving off after I filled the generator up with gas again. With my belly full, I noticed that the sun was going down, and so, thinking to save wear and tear on the generator, I took down a brass lamp that hangs in our family room, a model which is advertised to work on any liquid fuel, all brass, which we keep on a ceiling hook as a conversation piece and just-in-case light. I knew that it had Naphtha in it: I had gone through the directions page-by-page when I bought it last year, and I had lit it up with no trouble. I remembered reading something about the lighting procedure being different for different fuels, but the instruction manual is on a CD-Rom that came with it, and I couldn't remember where that was. I figured that it would be about the same as a Coleman mantle lantern, and I pumped up the fuel pressure while I thought of how nice the brass looked in the light from my dad's old Bernz-o-matic lantern, which runs on propane fuel. The brass lantern lit right up: up about one foot above the top of the of the glass, and then all over the inside of the glass, and, within two or three seconds, all over the table top where the fuel had leaked out. I did keep my wits about me, but just barely: I upended a trash can and used it to cover the whole mess, and got a satisfying "swoof" of the fire going out, at the same time that I realized I had used a plastic trash can and that its sides were suddenly rather warm in my hands. I let the pressure out of the lantern's fuel compartment, and wiped up the remaining fuel, and emptied the tank back into the Naphtha can, and hanged it back up where it had been before. I went down to the cellar and retrieved the kerosene lamps I've had for years, and cleaned the globes and added the kerosene and set them out for use: not nearly as bright as a mantle lantern, but fine for finding your way around the house. I found a three-way converter cord, and plugged in the router down in the cellar, next to the ADSL modem, and got on the net long enough to tell my alternate system administrator to take over my duties, and long enough to find out that the power outage was much bigger than I had expected. The computer also told me that the forecast was for below-freezing temperatures that night, so I used the lanterns to find my way out to the outside spigots, and (with a lot of stumbling and tripping) to disconnect and drain the garden hoses that were coiled up next to them. I turned off the water lines so that the spigots wouldn't have any water in them, and then retreated back inside. We had flashlights for when we needed them, and kerosene lamps going in the bathroom and the kitchen, and a warm home. I filled the generator up yet again, and we called it a night. Monday was pretty much the same: the generator would run for about 80 minutes before it needed more gas, and I was even able to run the coffee-maker, so that I could think clearly enough to realize that I could put a jumper across the two power poles on the "generator" side of my transfer switch, and use the circuit breakers in the electric panel to turn the refrigerator or the furnace on. As a side benefit of having the refrigerator on only some of the time, I found that the ice cream was much easier to scoop, and treated myself to frequent retesting of the effect. I ran the refrigerator more often, though, concerned that I might have been too optimistic about its insulation and the thermal inertia of the food in the freezer. As I said, we had power back by early Tuesday morning. I coiled up the extension cord next to the transfer switch, threw the lever to the other side, and rejoiced in the sound of my furnace and the cellar lights and the UPS and the refrigerator all coming on at once. They say an ounce of experience is worth a pound of theory, so I'm putting this out there, unvarnished, to illustrate some fundamental principles of disaster preparedness which I will be following in the future. 1. Any fool knows you need extra matches around in the winter. 2. Don't put off electrical work that you're going to be wishing you had done earlier if the power goes out. 3. Any widespread outage is going to tax _ALL_ the resources of your community: gas stations, restaurants, and road-clearing. Unless you have your own water, food, fuel, and the capabilities to use them efficiently, your just a guy with some extra stuff lying around. 4. It's no good to buy a small generator and think that it prepares you for the winter. Without a proper setup and regular tests, you wind up with a marginally useful device that needs too much attention and provides sub-standard capabilities. FWIW. YMMV, and I hope it does. 73, Bill, W1AC -- Bill Horne (Remove QRM from my address to write to me directly) |
Scotty, I need more power
On 11/4/2011 5:33 AM, Bill Horne wrote:
It started on Saturday night, with a finger-poke and my wife saying "Bill, the power is out". [ snip ] 73, Bill, W1AC Damn it Bill, you owe me a keyboard. Been there, done that, had all the same sorts of fun and games in the process. At least YOU were UNDER the desk when it collapsed. I was on top of it. Jeff-1.0 wa6fwi -- "Everything from Crackers to Coffins" |
Scotty, I need more power
On 11/4/2011 10:07 AM, Jeffrey Angus wrote:
On 11/4/2011 5:33 AM, Bill Horne wrote: It started on Saturday night, with a finger-poke and my wife saying "Bill, the power is out". Damn it Bill, you owe me a keyboard. Trust me: my wife poking my shoulder at ten pm is no laughing matter. _SHE_ wanted _ME_ to stumble down to the basement and play blind man's bluff until I came across the flashlight I had left there. The nerve of that woman! My bedroom is still too cold: must be something wrong with the heat. Been there, done that, had all the same sorts of fun and games in the process. At least YOU were UNDER the desk when it collapsed. I was on top of it. I not sure that having my face shoved up against the sharp edges on the back of my wife's computer was any less memorable, but then again, I was able to calm myself for at least 250 milliseconds by recalling that the machine was off. There seems to be a conspiracy among all the electronic devices in my home: the more important they are in an emergency, the farther back into the corner they will have receded. They insulate themselves with dust balls, conceal themselves in darkness, protect their cords with child-save latches that only a child could figure out, and roll over so that their switches, controls, and indicators are facing the wrong direction. They should call it "Disaster Avoidance", not "Disaster Preparedness": the trick is to avoid the other disasters that occurred when I tried to deal with the original. 73, Bill W1AC -- Bill Horne (Remove QRM from my address to write to me directly) |
Scotty, I need more power
In article , Bill Horne wrote: snipped fopr brevity It started on Saturday night, with a finger-poke and my wife saying "Bill, the power is out". It ended at about three am today, when I noticed that the streetlight was on and I went and threw the transfer switch back to commercial power. I leaned a lot during the power failure, and I invite comments and discussion to help other hams who are preparing for the coming winter and for public service events. 1. Any fool knows you need extra matches around in the winter. 2. Don't put off electrical work that you're going to be wishing you had done earlier if the power goes out. 3. Any widespread outage is going to tax _ALL_ the resources of your community: gas stations, restaurants, and road-clearing. Unless you have your own water, food, fuel, and the capabilities to use them efficiently, your just a guy with some extra stuff lying around. 4. It's no good to buy a small generator and think that it prepares you for the winter. Without a proper setup and regular tests, you wind up with a marginally useful device that needs too much attention and provides sub-standard capabilities. FWIW. YMMV, and I hope it does. 73, Bill, W1AC Read your stuff, and it is a GREAT Story, of the Unprepared, trying to fix things..... I would suggest that you get some good Surivial tips over on www.survivalmonkey.com, and some Generator Installation information, over at www.smokstak.com..... there are lots of folks over there that have "Been there, Done that" and have fixes for all those issues, from practical Experience.ome even in your area. Just Say'en.... YMMV..... Bruce in alaska AL7AQ -- Bruce in Alaska add path before the @ for email |
Scotty, I need more power
On 11/4/2011 6:33 AM, Bill Horne wrote:
4. It's no good to buy a small generator and think that it prepares you for the winter. Without a proper setup and regular tests, you wind up with a marginally useful device that needs too much attention and provides sub-standard capabilities. I agree... To make sure a generator will run when you need it to run you need to run it at least once a month under 1/2 load for at least 30 minutes, You need a good supply of STABLIZED gas and small engines often do not like alcohol in the gas so just siphoning the car.. not a good idea. Plus.. To do it right you should have a proper GENERATOR TRANSFER panel/switch(es) put in the house. How I did it: Onan Emerald Gold 5.5KW generator (120 volt only) in the motorhome. Holds 70 gallons, burns just over 1 an hour at FULL load. 30 amp Twist lock in the MH basement (along with a pair of TT-30 Pigtails) fed by dedicated 30 amp breakers in the distribution box Transfer switches in basement (not all the lights, more on that in a bit) and an "inlet" on the back of the house. Plug in the cord, crank her up (install Gen-Turi first) and start flipping switches. Now, that not all lights. I left a couple of lights that I do not often use on the main box and did not route the circuit through the transfer switches. That way when power fails I turn those lights ON. When they actually come on... I know it's time to shut down Mr. onan. -- Nothing adds Excitement like something that is none of your business. ----- No virus found in this message. Checked by AVG - www.avg.com Version: 2012.0.1869 / Virus Database: 2092/4597 - Release Date: 11/04/11 |
Scotty, I need more power
On Fri, 2011-11-04 at 06:33 -0400, Bill Horne wrote:
It started on Saturday night, with a finger-poke and my wife saying "Bill, the power is out". It ended at about three am today, when I noticed that the streetlight was on and I went and threw the transfer switch back to commercial power. I leaned a lot during the power failure, and I invite comments and discussion to help other hams who are preparing for the coming winter and for public service events. [snip] They say an ounce of experience is worth a pound of theory, so I'm putting this out there, unvarnished, to illustrate some fundamental principles of disaster preparedness which I will be following in the future. Here's an update on what I've done since the storm, and also a request for help. I'll get to the "help" part in a moment. 1. Any fool knows you need extra matches around in the winter. I now have a book of matches next to every candle in the house. I also have a well-maintained flashlight in the drawer next to my bed. 2. Don't put off electrical work that you're going to be wishing you had done earlier if the power goes out. I've decided that the arrangement I had just wasn't workable: there's no reason to switch "everything" over to a generator that will only power a couple of things. So, I'm rewiring my home to have a generator feed available to only a few devices: A. Furnace B. Refrigerator C. Seven low-wattage compact-flurescent lamps, one in each room we usually use. D. The Internet connection: an ADSL Modem and the routers. With this arrangement, I anticipate that my current generator can support both the refrigerator and the furnace, as well as a few lights. 3. Any widespread outage is going to tax _ALL_ the resources of your community: gas stations, restaurants, and road-clearing. Unless you have your own water, food, fuel, and the capabilities to use them efficiently, your just a guy with some extra stuff lying around. I've moved my Coleman camping stove, some Coleman lanterns, and my kerosene lanterns underneath the stairs to my cellar, in a space that wasn't being used. The fuel for them is now in a small storage box on my back porch, so that I can get to it even if the path to my shed is blocked by snow. I'm keeping a five-gallon can of stabilized gas on hand, and I'm going to swap it into my car once a month and refill it. We have plenty of canned food, some dry food such as pasta, and some packets of things like cocoa, plus a couple of gallons of "spring" water just for good measure. Without power or the chance to get to a store, we'd still be well fed for about a week. 4. It's no good to buy a small generator and think that it prepares you for the winter. Without a proper setup and regular tests, you wind up with a marginally useful device that needs too much attention and provides sub-standard capabilities. As much as I hate to eat my words, I'm going to have to "make do" with the generator I have for a while. I can't complain too much, since I bought it for a great price and I knew that it wasn't a "whole house" machine at the start. My XYL has shown very little interest in upgrading to a larger model, so I've painted myself into a corner by demonstrating that the 2KW unit can work, even if only barely. I'll have to wait awhile before I can upgrade, and I'm gathering info in the meantime. However, there are larger issues, and here's where I'd appreciate help from the other readers. This applies to field day, to EmCom in general, and (of course) to being prepared for storms at home, and so I'm going to ask some questions about preparedness in the hopes that all can benefit. 1. What information source(s) are there for generator ratings, fuel consumption, durability, workmanship, and cost-per-watt? This may seem like the most obvious stuff, and it should be available anywhere, but the retailers' web sites don't have it, and I don't want to buy a set that isn't rated for "continuous duty". Are there any neutral parties who will offer an opinion? Are the specifications of units available to the government available to civilians? 2. How much do the various fuels cost to use, in real dollars? I've heard several people advise me to get a generator that runs on natural gas, but I've also seen claims that natural gas is a lot more expensive to use than gasoline or diesel fuel. Counting factors such as "derating", is natural gas competitive with diesel or gasoline? 3. What would it cost to fit a larger fuel tank? The 2KW Coleman unit I have only runs about 80 minutes before it needs refueling, and that's just too little time to allow for work and sleep. I'd like to have at least eight hours between refuelings. 4. What about noise? I need some information about ways that I can reduce the noise from my 2KW unit enough that I can run it at the same time I'm trying to sleep. 5. Last, the subject of keeping food on hand when the roads are blocked. How do I, as an individual, judge the companies that sell "emergency" food? I don't want to seem cynical, but all I could find is word-of-mouth opinions about the various firms that are in the business, and I'd like to have some more objective information available before I spend hundreds of dollars for freeze-dried or other long-term-storage food supplies. Thanks for your help. Bill, W1AC -- (Filter QRM to write to me directly) |
Scotty, I need more power
On Thu, 10 Nov 2011 14:57:22 EST, Bill Horne
wrote: I'd like to have some more objective information available before I spend hundreds of dollars for freeze-dried or other long-term-storage food supplies. Times of stress are not a good time to eat strange new food. Stock up on what you usually eat. Whenever you see a particularly good buy on something, buy as much of it as you think you'll use before it spoils. Restock a staple when you open the last package, not when you empty the last package. Keep various items at various stages of restocking. (It's all right to run clear out of chicken when there's plenty of fish and pork.) The only emergency foods in my house are two cans of evaporated milk -- which reminds me that it's time to take them to Our Father's House and buy two more. (I normally have an emergency before their six months is up.) -- Joy Beeson joy beeson at comcast dot net |
Scotty, I need more power
On 11/10/2011 1:57 PM, Bill Horne wrote:
1. What information source(s) are there for generator Avoid just about everything you see in places like Home Depot or Harbor Freight. What you want is a generator that is quiet, dependable and runs for more that an hour. Pricey, but I bought a Honda EXS4500 back in 1989. It's in a full soundproofed cabinet so it doesn't sound like a moto- cross race in your back yard. It runs for about 4 hours on a tank of gas and has required no maintenance expect checking the oil and replacing the battery a couple of times. 2. How much do the various fuels cost to use, in real dollars? The "cost" of natural gas isn't the BTU cost, it's whether or not it will be available when the power outage is widespread. Both propane, gasoline and diesel require electrical service to run the pumps. And tanks that need to be refilled. 3. What would it cost to fit a larger fuel tank? Marine fuel tanks. Self contained with all the proper safety bits and pieces. MUCH better than a Jerry Can with a hose stuck in it. 4. What about noise? The biggest problem is the exhaust. If you can get a larger muffler in addition to the one that it comes with, that's a step in the right direction. The next problem is mechanical noise. Most open frame generators sound like a blender full of rocks. Learn masonry. Build a little house for your generator with additional partitions (separate) for fuel and other supplies. You can camouflage it to look like a back yard BBQ ;-) 5. Last, the subject of keeping food on hand when the roads are blocked. First and foremost is fresh water. Got to keep plenty of that on hand. Also, you should consider a plastic 55 gal drum full of "non-drinking" water for such niceties as flushing toilets. Military MRE's are rated for 10 year storage. This means they're good for probably 20 or so. Freeze dried, back filled with dry nitrogen then vacuum packed. On the other hand, just stock up on canned goods. Also check the typical expiration date on some "pre-cooked" meals in sealed bags (Not frozen food). I used to buy some excellent complete dinners in a bag from a Canadian source at REI Co-Op for camping. Not cheap, but an absolute no brainer to prepare. Jeff-1.0 wa6fwi -- "Everything from Crackers to Coffins" |
Scotty, I need more power
On Fri, 11 Nov 2011 10:12:31 EST, Jeffrey Angus
wrote: Both propane, gasoline and diesel require electrical service to run the pumps. And tanks that need to be refilled. And good luck getting a permit for any decent-sized tank for those fuels in any residential area. I'm talking about 96-hour capacity, not a five-gallon Jerry can. -- 73 de K2ASP - Phil Kane From a Clearing in the Silicon Forest Beaverton (Washington County) Oregon e-mail: k2asp [at] arrl [dot] net |
Scotty, I need more power
On 11/11/2011 15:04, Phil Kane wrote:
On Fri, 11 Nov 2011 10:12:31 EST, Jeffrey wrote: Both propane, gasoline and diesel require electrical service to run the pumps. And tanks that need to be refilled. And good luck getting a permit for any decent-sized tank for those fuels in any residential area. I'm talking about 96-hour capacity, not a five-gallon Jerry can. -- 73 de K2ASP - Phil Kane From a Clearing in the Silicon Forest Beaverton (Washington County) Oregon e-mail: k2asp [at] arrl [dot] net Phil Perhaps there is that much difficulty getting such permits were you are but it is not uncommon in Maryland for people to have five hundred gallon propane tanks when they heat with the stuff. Underground fuel oil tanks are not uncommon either, although new ones are expensive to install. Above ground concrete encased tanks are the storage of choice for commercial sites now because less monitoring for leakage is required. Those are also fairly pricey though. What you cannot get a permit for is above ground storage in shipping containers such as five gallon plastic cans or fifty five gallon drums. If you need to store fuel in the same containers that will be used to dispense and transport them then the containers must be stored in a flammable liquids cabinet. Those are also quite pricey. So the cheapest one to store lawfully would appear to be propane. My firehouse heated the apparatus bay with propane and used it to fuel an eighty kilowatt generator/ A five day outage used two thirds of the propane tanks one thousand gallon capacity. If that duel fueled unit had had a natural gas connection we would have had a smaller tank for the propane which would have been used only as a backup fuel supply. -- Tom Horne |
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Why not just do it right to start with? My gas appliances (furnace, stove,
hot water) are fueled with propane in an underground tank. Yes, propane is expensive. When I moved to this house my first major purchase was a 10kw Guardian standby generator hooked to the propane tank. Within 5 days after the thing was installed, the power went out.... The generator has been a Godsend out here. Howard N7SO upstate NY |
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Howard Lester wrote:
Why not just do it right to start with? My gas appliances (furnace, stove, hot water) are fueled with propane in an underground tank. Yes, propane is expensive. When I moved to this house my first major purchase was a 10kw Guardian standby generator hooked to the propane tank. Within 5 days after the thing was installed, the power went out.... The generator has been a Godsend out here. You should be able to run heating and a diesel generator from the same tank if you choose a boiler which runs on diesel grade rather than kerosene.. g4jci |
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On 11/11/2011 20 04, Phil Kane wrote:
On Fri, 11 Nov 2011 10:12:31 EST, Jeffrey wrote: Both propane, gasoline and diesel require electrical service to run the pumps. And tanks that need to be refilled. And good luck getting a permit for any decent-sized tank for those fuels in any residential area. I'm talking about 96-hour capacity, not a five-gallon Jerry can. If one is lucky enough to live in an area which is served by natural gas, a generator powered by that fuel would be an economical alternative without the necessity of have a fuel dump as part of the yard. The outfit found at the url below can show you how to inexpensively convert a gasoline generator to natural gas or, if you aren't in an area where that fuel is available, to propane. http://www.propane-generators.com/ 73, Dave Heil K8MN |
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On Sat, 12 Nov 2011 07:51:26 EST, Dave Heil
wrote: If one is lucky enough to live in an area which is served by natural gas, a generator powered by that fuel would be an economical alternative without the necessity of have a fuel dump as part of the yard. Not only that, natural gas is lighter-than-air so if there is a leak, there's less of a problem than LPG which is heavier than air and would accumulate until it finds a source of ignition and blooie! A friend of mine learned that the hard way when a leaky BBQ bottle caused a fire that burned down half his house including a library of special books and writings that he had inherited from his scholar father. -- 73 de K2ASP - Phil Kane From a Clearing in the Silicon Forest Beaverton (Washington County) Oregon e-mail: k2asp [at] arrl [dot] net |
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Scotty, I need more power
On 11/12/2011 7:23 PM, Bill Horne wrote:
Since my furnace and hot water heater both use natural gas, I'm interested in using*that* to fuel a generator, but (as I wrote before), I'm looking for cost figures that will help me to make an informed decision about the most cost-effective fuel. This is, of course, a complicated calculation: natural gas is more convenient, but limits the genset to one location. Diesel is (so I've heard) less expensive than gas, but the genset will cost more initially. If you are reading this, and*YOU* have bought or used any of the options I've listed, please make your opinion known. I converted a 1967 Dodge 1/2 ton pick up truck with a slant 6 cylinder engine to run dual fuel. Propane and Gasoline. It came in quite handy while dealing with the manufactured gas crisis. "No gasoline? No problem, I'll fill it with propane." I currently own a Honda 4500 watt genset. That's my "portable". I'll keep it running on gasoline as designed. It runs for about 4 hours with a full tank and an 80% load. For the record, I run premium grade gasoline and add Stabil to it. The Empire 12 KW genset with the Wisconsin VF4D engine runs on gas, but I've decided to convert it to natural gas as the standby set for the house. (Looks like the conversion setup for that will cost $277.) But it will run continuously and I don't have to deal with fuel storage. At my previous location, fuel storage was an issue, I had to maintain about 10 each 5 gallon cans. Which included dumping them into the car periodically and refilling them with fresh gasoline. My question would be "In the event of a widespread failure, what is going to go away first? Gasoline supplies, piped natural gas or trucked Propane." And decide which fuel to use based on that. For what it's worth, the AT&T sites I used to go to (Which were sold to American Tower) used diesel generator sets. And one other tidbit. I refuse to use Arco Gasoline. It tends to dissolve rubber bits and gaskets in generator engines. Jeff-1.0 wa6fwi -- "Everything from Crackers to Coffins" |
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"Bill Horne" wrote
This is, of course, a complicated calculation: natural gas is more convenient, but limits the genset to one location. Diesel is (so I've heard) less expensive than gas, but the genset will cost more initially. If you are reading this, and *YOU* have bought or used any of the options I've listed, please make your opinion known. Bill, in my case I am forced to use propane because there are no natural-gas lines where I live. Supposedly natural gas is far cheaper, but as Jeff said, its supply to your house can be cut off in a disaster. For the record, my 10kw Guardian generator and transfer box cost $4.1K installed. This was done 2 years ago. It connects to the line of the existing 500 gallon underground propane tank. When the electricity goes out, the generator comes on automatically in about 20 seconds. No flashlights are required, and you don't have to get out of a warm bed to find any switches or matches. Howard N7SO |
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On 11/11/2011 10:12 AM, Jeffrey Angus wrote:
The biggest problem is the exhaust. If you can get a larger muffler in addition to the one that it comes with, that's a step in the right direction. The next problem is mechanical noise. Most open frame generators sound like a blender full of rocks. With the Honda "I" series generators (Like the ef3000i) you are correct that the largest noise is exhaust. With many "Contractor" type generators, like the 300 dollar 3500 watt job down at pep boys, it's mechanical noise plus exhaust. I saw a demo of a Yahama EU-2400i one day (This is a true 2,000 watt inverter generator 2000 continous and 2400 peak) This was at a rally so there was rather a lot of crowd noise to deal with but. Though I could hear the thing at idle... the salesman could not (The 1200-i I could not hear at idle) as you might safely assume, Many Ham radio operators are used to "listening through noise" add to that 25 years on the police dispatch desk. At half load we did not have to raise our voices At full load, With one foot literally on top of the generator, it got loud enough that we had to speak up. Think about this "noise" level.. And recall we were close enough to FEEL the exhaust.. I've not done this kind of test with the HONDA but the spec sheet puts them ONE DB louder.... Just one. -- Nothing adds Excitement like something that is none of your business. ----- No virus found in this message. Checked by AVG - www.avg.com Version: 2012.0.1869 / Virus Database: 2092/4614 - Release Date: 11/13/11 |
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On 11/11/2011 3:04 PM, Phil Kane wrote:
On Fri, 11 Nov 2011 10:12:31 EST, Jeffrey wrote: Both propane, gasoline and diesel require electrical service to run the pumps. And tanks that need to be refilled. And good luck getting a permit for any decent-sized tank for those fuels in any residential area. I'm talking about 96-hour capacity, not a five-gallon Jerry can. My class A holds 70 gallons of gasoline, Some Diesel Pushers hold 2 or 3 hundred gallons. In both cases a 5,000 watt generator burns less than 1 per hour at normal loads. Plus, unless the roads are blocked, if you have smaller containers (I don't recommend jerry cans but Eagle Gas cans are good) you can travel to where the pumps pump.. The first time I went out for a Generator and fuel that was only about a one hour drive at freeway speeds (60 miles) That was blackout 2003 as I recall. I would love to get that generator back too.. It grew legs amd walked off on me. If anyone sees a GENRAC 1000 (1KW fully enclosed traditional generator,, by the way this one compares both in weight, size, fuel consumption and sound with the Honda EF-2000i) with my call on it.... Let me (And the Redford Michigan Police) know please. -- Nothing adds Excitement like something that is none of your business. ----- No virus found in this message. Checked by AVG - www.avg.com Version: 2012.0.1869 / Virus Database: 2092/4614 - Release Date: 11/13/11 |
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On 11/14/2011 1:27 AM, John Davis wrote:
I saw a demo of a Yahama EU-2400i one day (This is a true 2,000 watt inverter generator 2000 continous and 2400 peak) This was at a rally so there was rather a lot of crowd noise to deal with but. Though I could hear the thing at idle... the salesman could not (The 1200-i I could not hear at idle) as you might safely assume, Many Ham radio operators are used to "listening through noise" add to that 25 years on the police dispatch desk. At half load we did not have to raise our voices At full load, With one foot literally on top of the generator, it got loud enough that we had to speak up. Think about this "noise" level.. And recall we were close enough to FEEL the exhaust.. I've not done this kind of test with the HONDA but the spec sheet puts them ONE DB louder.... Just one. Please pass along any URL's that show side-by-side comparisons of the sound output of the various generators in the "5KW" class. I'd also like to see a chart that compares sound levels with common sources: "quiet as a church mouse" up to "Chain saw", and four or five steps in between. For some reason, I get the impression that generators are either super quiet or unbelievably noisy, with no middle ground. I'd like to see if my perceptions match reality. TIA. Bill, W1AC -- Bill Horne (Remove QRM from my address to write to me directly) |
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On 11/15/2011 10:20 PM, Bill Horne wrote:
Please pass along any URL's that show side-by-side comparisons of the sound output of the various generators in the "5KW" class. I'd also like to see a chart that compares sound levels with common sources: "quiet as a church mouse" up to "Chain saw", and four or five steps in between. For some reason, I get the impression that generators are either super quiet or unbelievably noisy, with no middle ground. I'd like to see if my perceptions match reality. TIA. http://www.hondapowerequipment.com/products/Generators/ Check out the tools and resources sidebar. Also, the infamous sales brochure. But still a good deal of comparison information. http://www.hondapowerequipment.com/pdf/Brochures/generator_brochure.pdf No, I don't work for Honda. Yes, I'm quite pleased with the Honda stuff I own. Jeff-1.0 wa6fwi -- "Everything from Crackers to Coffins" |
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"Bill Horne" wrote in message news:1321147426.4755.14.camel@Thinkpad... This is, of course, a complicated calculation: natural gas is more convenient, but limits the genset to one location. Diesel is (so I've heard) less expensive than gas, but the genset will cost more initially. If you are reading this, and *YOU* have bought or used any of the options I've listed, please make your opinion known. You really don't want to go the diesel route unless you are prepared for a significant amount of maintenance (both of the genset and the fuel). Stored diesel fuel grows all sorts of stuff that will quickly plug fuel filters. In cold weather starting is difficult unless you use auxiliary heaters to keep the generator warm. I've dealt with backup power for radio and television stations for forty five years and standby diesel will absolutely not be reliable, unless you maintain a rigid maintenance program and exercise the plant religiously. For a home size plant, I opted for propane, since that is the only heating fuel available to me, and reasonable run time comes from a 500 gallon propane tank that would be in place in any event. No fuel stability issues, reasonable maintenance required, and once I move up to a large enough unit to deal with a 1-1/2 HP well pump, several pumps for the septic system, furnace, the incremental cost to go to a 20KW units was very small. I'm in the Mother Lode part of the Sierra Foothills, and, surprisingly, most of our long outages come in the summer, when wildland fires cause transmission shutdowns. The 20 KW unit manages the air conditioning as well since the compressor is a low starting current scroll type. Bill KB0RF |
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Hash: SHA1 In Bert writes: In news:1321147426.4755.14.camel@Thinkpad Bill Horne wrote: Diesel is (so I've heard) less expensive than gas, Not around here, it's not. At the moment, regular unleaded gas is going for about $3.25/gal, while diesel is about $4.00/gal. The few times I've actually looked at the price of diesel, it's always been more expensive than gasoline. -- Bert Hyman W0RSB St. Paul, MN True, but what's important to look at is the overall cost relative to the energy produced. Diesel fuel has more energy per gallon than gasoline (145,000 BTU's vs. 125,000): http://auto.howstuffworks.com/diesel3.htm Diesel engines, which use the Carnot cycle, are more efficient, recovering about 45% of the energy from diesel fuel, versus 30% of the energy for a gasoline engine: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Diesel_engine So the increased energy content and the the increased energy efficiency means that diesel engines will have an energy advantage over a gasoline engine of about 1.75 to 1 per gallon of fuel. This more than compensates for the greater cost ratio of about 1.25 to 1. Diesel engines may have other drawbacks that were pointed out in this thread (maintenance, heating, noise, pollution), but energy efficiency and cost of fuel isn't one of them. That's why it's used in transportation that requires a lot of energy and fuel (railroads, long-haul trucking, container ships, etc.). Conversely, E85 (85% ethanol, 15% gasoline) has less energy content: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/E85 and engines that are designed to burn both gasoline and E85 are not optimally efficient to burn E85 (requires higher compression). Therefore, though E85 is much cheaper per gallon, it is only worthwhile to use when the "price spread" is at least 15% or more. Seems that there's a web site that surveys prices by region, and identifies when and where this price spread makes it cost-advantaged to use E85 vs. gasoline: http://www.e85prices.com/ Locally, this usually happens when the price of gasoline goes much over $4/gallon. - -- 73, Paul W. Schleck, K3FU http://www.novia.net/~pschleck/ Finger for PGP Public Key -----BEGIN PGP SIGNATURE----- Version: GnuPG v1.4.5 (SunOS) iD8DBQFOxnUr6Pj0az779o4RAmj/AJ0bXITua/bdu98PqceXzoOlcCNdJwCeLeM0 gXzWUqbRYTXAjJlyy1ONKMQ= =ymYN -----END PGP SIGNATURE----- |
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On 11/16/2011 04 20, Bill Horne wrote:
Please pass along any URL's that show side-by-side comparisons of the sound output of the various generators in the "5KW" class. I'd also like to see a chart that compares sound levels with common sources: "quiet as a church mouse" up to "Chain saw", and four or five steps in between. For some reason, I get the impression that generators are either super quiet or unbelievably noisy, with no middle ground. I'd like to see if my perceptions match reality. Here's my unscientific response: We've used N8NN's little 1 KW Honda for a number of Field Day operations. At 100 feet away, it is difficult to hear at a half load. The 3 KW generator I used to own had a Briggs and Stratton engine. It was very, very loud. My current generator is a 4 KW Craftsman/Generac. It is less than half as loud as the Briggs. 73, Dave Heil K8MN |
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On 11/18/2011 1:58 PM, Paul W. Schleck wrote:
True, but what's important to look at is the overall cost relative to the energy produced. [snip] So the increased energy content and the the increased energy efficiency means that diesel engines will have an energy advantage over a gasoline engine of about 1.75 to 1 per gallon of fuel. This more than compensates for the greater cost ratio of about 1.25 to 1. Paul, Thanks for filling in the background on this. I'm reminded of the time my sister rented a diesel-powered truck, and told me that she did it because, although diesel was slightly higher than gas at the pump, the truck would get over thirty miles per gallon. Of course, the relative efficiency of the fuels is an important factor, but I'm in need of advice from those who have operated BOTH gas and diesel generators, because I need to know what the other costs a 1. Purchase price 2. Maintenance expenses 3. Fuel storage 4. Reliability So, if you've owned or operated /both/ diesel and gas generators, please chime in. Thanks! Bill, W1AC P.S. I'm also curious (although, frankly, it's not that high on my list) about whether a diesel engine could run alternative fuels like restaurant grease or the other "green" substitutes for diesel AND about other hams who have actually done it. -- Bill Horne (Remove QRM from my address to write to me directly) |
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On Sun, 20 Nov 2011 11:26:24 EST, Bill Horne
wrote: P.S. I'm also curious (although, frankly, it's not that high on my list) about whether a diesel engine could run alternative fuels like restaurant grease or the other "green" substitutes for diesel AND about other hams who have actually done it. Biodiesel - all the buses here run that. Exhaust smells like French-fries! -- 73 de K2ASP - Phil Kane From a Clearing in the Silicon Forest Beaverton (Washington County) Oregon e-mail: k2asp [at] arrl [dot] net |
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In Phil Kane
wrote: On Sun, 20 Nov 2011 11:26:24 EST, Bill Horne wrote: P.S. I'm also curious (although, frankly, it's not that high on my list) about whether a diesel engine could run alternative fuels like restaurant grease or the other "green" substitutes for diesel AND about other hams who have actually done it. Biodiesel - all the buses here run that. Exhaust smells like French-fries! Since this is for off-road use, investigate sources of diesel intended for farm or other non-highway uses, which will not have the Federal tax applied. -- Bert Hyman W0RSB St. Paul, MN |
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On Sun, 2011-11-20 at 15:34 -0500, Phil Kane wrote:
On Sun, 20 Nov 2011 11:26:24 EST, Bill Horne wrote: P.S. I'm also curious (although, frankly, it's not that high on my list) about whether a diesel engine could run alternative fuels like restaurant grease or the other "green" substitutes for diesel AND about other hams who have actually done it. Biodiesel - all the buses here run that. Exhaust smells like French-fries! Yes, but can a /generator/ run it? What are the upsides and downsides? Bill P.S. Jay Leno remarked that even though Willy Nelson converted his tour bus to biodiesel, police sniffer dogs were still chasing it, so it probably didn't smell like French fries. (Filter QRM to email me directly) |
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On Sun, 2011-11-20 at 16:01 -0500, Bert wrote:
In Phil Kane wrote: On Sun, 20 Nov 2011 11:26:24 EST, Bill Horne wrote: P.S. I'm also curious (although, frankly, it's not that high on my list) about whether a diesel engine could run alternative fuels like restaurant grease or the other "green" substitutes for diesel AND about other hams who have actually done it. Biodiesel - all the buses here run that. Exhaust smells like French-fries! Since this is for off-road use, investigate sources of diesel intended for farm or other non-highway uses, which will not have the Federal tax applied. Please pardon my ignorance, but I always thought that #2 fuel oil /is/ diesel fuel without the road tax. Am I wrong? 73, Bill, W1AC (Filter QRM to email me directly) |
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On 11/20/11 4:22 PM, Bill Horne wrote:
... Please pardon my ignorance, but I always thought that #2 fuel oil /is/ diesel fuel without the road tax. Am I wrong? Diesel fuel these days is 'ultra low' in sulfur...15 ppm, max. I think regular fuel oil is much higher in sulfur. There may also be other additives in diesel fuel but I'm not sure what. 'Off road' diesel is colored red and is not subject to road taxes so it's cheaper but you'd better not be caught with it in an over-the-road vehicle or face some pretty stiff fines. I'd think it would be legal in a generator. HTH... 73... Mark, AA7TA |
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On Sun, 20 Nov 2011 18:14:33 EST, Bill Horne
wrote: P.S. Jay Leno remarked that even though Willy Nelson converted his tour bus to biodiesel, police sniffer dogs were still chasing it, so it probably didn't smell like French fries. Probably because they were tracking the air exchanger exhaust/vent.... -- 73 de K2ASP - Phil Kane From a Clearing in the Silicon Forest Beaverton (Washington County) Oregon e-mail: k2asp [at] arrl [dot] net |
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On 11/20/2011 11:26 AM, Bill Horne wrote:
P.S. I'm also curious (although, frankly, it's not that high on my list) about whether a diesel engine could run alternative fuels like restaurant grease or the other "green" substitutes for diesel AND about other hams who have actually done it. Yes, Bio-diesel is the fuel made from Restaurant grease.. most diesel engines can be modified to burn it. Though not all, at least not easily. -- Nothing adds Excitement like something that is none of your business. ----- No virus found in this message. Checked by AVG - www.avg.com Version: 2012.0.1872 / Virus Database: 2101/4630 - Release Date: 11/21/11 |
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On 11/20/2011 6:22 PM, Bill Horne wrote:
Please pardon my ignorance, but I always thought that #2 fuel oil /is/ diesel fuel without the road tax. Am I wrong? Not driving a Diesel I do not recall but it is either #2 Furnace = #1 Diesel or #1 equals #2.. I do not recall which but a dealer will know. Though it is true that "Stuff" grows in Diesel tanks if it's allowed to set (had that happen at work) The proper additives can prevent that for the most part, if not completely. -- Nothing adds Excitement like something that is none of your business. ----- No virus found in this message. Checked by AVG - www.avg.com Version: 2012.0.1872 / Virus Database: 2101/4630 - Release Date: 11/21/11 |
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On 11/20/2011 6:14 PM, Bill Horne wrote:
P.S. Jay Leno remarked that even though Willy Nelson converted his tour bus to biodiesel, police sniffer dogs were still chasing it, so it probably didn't smell like French fries. Police Sniffer dogs are not much attracted to French Fries, and like a good Ham radio operator can ignore the "noise" or in this case the nose noise, and smell the Signal (MJ) underneath the fries. I have had the pleasure of petting a few of those puppies. They are real nice when you are petting them.. Not so nice when they are working :). -- Nothing adds Excitement like something that is none of your business. ----- No virus found in this message. Checked by AVG - www.avg.com Version: 2012.0.1872 / Virus Database: 2101/4630 - Release Date: 11/21/11 |
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On 11/15/2011 11:20 PM, Bill Horne wrote:
For some reason, I get the impression that generators are either super quiet or unbelievably noisy, with no middle ground. I'd like to see if my perceptions match reality. Fairly close.. I have stood near a 5KW honda inverter type and it was, like most all inverter types, fairly quiet I've been near some fully enclosed jobs including Military types (and in your size class that might be the way to go) that were not bad.. Flat head 4 cylinder engine and enclosed generator makes for fairly soft sound with a good muffler. I've had a fully enclosed 1KW "Traditional" generator that when it comes to nearly all specs save power out matched a Honda EU-2000i, This was a true Killowatt generator (1,000 watts constant) sound level was close to the Honda at full load (I think -59 DB) fuel consumption and weight all close to the Honda 2000. And of course "Contractor" models, which should come with ear plugs. -- Nothing adds Excitement like something that is none of your business. ----- No virus found in this message. Checked by AVG - www.avg.com Version: 2012.0.1872 / Virus Database: 2101/4630 - Release Date: 11/21/11 |
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On 11/22/2011 12:37 PM, John Davis wrote:
On 11/20/2011 6:14 PM, Bill Horne wrote: P.S. Jay Leno remarked that even though Willy Nelson converted his tour bus to biodiesel, police sniffer dogs were still chasing it, so it probably didn't smell like French fries. Police Sniffer dogs are not much attracted to French Fries, and like a good Ham radio operator can ignore the "noise" or in this case the nose noise, and smell the Signal (MJ) underneath the fries. I have had the pleasure of petting a few of those puppies. They are real nice when you are petting them.. Not so nice when they are working :). Although it wasn't a "sniffer" dog, a German Shepherd saved my butt once in Danang: I was an MP, and when I told an Army private that I was apprehending him, he pulled a shiv. I saw a blur from my right, and the soldier was on the ground with an Air Force dog's teeth around this throat. His handler drank for free that night. OB Ham Radio: dogs used for Search-and-Rescue and crowd-control can cause problems with Emcom, since some hams aren't qualified to be around them. This goes back to the issue of training prior to deployment: if you're not comfortable around dogs, search-and-rescue may be a problem for you. 73, Bill, W1AC -- Bill Horne (Remove QRM from my address to write to me directly) |
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On 11/22/2011 12:38 PM, John Davis wrote:
On 11/15/2011 11:20 PM, Bill Horne wrote: For some reason, I get the impression that generators are either super quiet or unbelievably noisy, with no middle ground. I'd like to see if my perceptions match reality. Fairly close.. I have stood near a 5KW honda inverter type and it was, like most all inverter types, fairly quiet I've been near some fully enclosed jobs including Military types (and in your size class that might be the way to go) that were not bad.. Flat head 4 cylinder engine and enclosed generator makes for fairly soft sound with a good muffler. I've had a fully enclosed 1KW "Traditional" generator that when it comes to nearly all specs save power out matched a Honda EU-2000i, This was a true Killowatt generator (1,000 watts constant) sound level was close to the Honda at full load (I think -59 DB) fuel consumption and weight all close to the Honda 2000. And of course "Contractor" models, which should come with ear plugs. It pays to check: I looked at a Briggs and Stratton 7KW unit that runs on propane, and was astonished to see a noise rating of 72 db. The unit is completely enclosed, and is intended for permanent installation, so it boggles my mind that anyone would buy one unless they intend to have a sound-dampening enclosure built around it after the installation. Of course, noise is always a factor: even on outings like Field Day, which is, after all, intended to simulate emergency conditions, it can cause operator fatigue and errors. I once attended a Field Day in California, and the noise from one of the generators was so intense that the hams needed headphones just to hear the rigs. What I want is a tri-fuel unit that will run on propane, diesel, or gas, which has a sound rating below 60 db, which runs eight hours between refuelings, and which costs less than $700. It's like the old joke from the System Administrators: "'No bugs', 'Meets spec', 'On deadline': pick two". 73, Bill, W1AC -- Bill Horne (Remove QRM from my address to write to me directly) |
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On 11/12/2011 7:51 AM, Dave Heil wrote:
On 11/11/2011 20 04, Phil Kane wrote: On Fri, 11 Nov 2011 10:12:31 EST, Jeffrey wrote: Both propane, gasoline and diesel require electrical service to run the pumps. And tanks that need to be refilled. And good luck getting a permit for any decent-sized tank for those fuels in any residential area. I'm talking about 96-hour capacity, not a five-gallon Jerry can. If one is lucky enough to live in an area which is served by natural gas, a generator powered by that fuel would be an economical alternative without the necessity of have a fuel dump as part of the yard. The outfit found at the url below can show you how to inexpensively convert a gasoline generator to natural gas or, if you aren't in an area where that fuel is available, to propane. http://www.propane-generators.com/ Thanks for the info: the kits are in the ~$150 range, so they're affordable. I'm still looking for fuel cost figures from those who have used Propane-powered gensets - I assume that gas units converted to propane would be in the same cost range - so that I can make an informed decision. There is, of course, a "two-hundred pound gorilla" in the room: fuel costs are usually minor compared to the cost of spoiled food, frozen pipes, etc., so let me reassure everyone that I'm not looking for a tiny difference. I'm just worried about getting a $1,000 gas bill if I run a natural-gas powered generator for a week: we're not in need of a fine-grained analysis here. 73, Bill, W1AC -- Bill Horne (Remove QRM from my address to write to me directly) |
Scotty, I need more power
On 11/26/2011 12:09 AM, Bill Horne wrote:
On 11/22/2011 12:38 PM, John Davis wrote: On 11/15/2011 11:20 PM, Bill Horne wrote: For some reason, I get the impression that generators are either super quiet or unbelievably noisy, with no middle ground. I'd like to see if my perceptions match reality. Fairly close.. I have stood near a 5KW honda inverter type and it was, like most all inverter types, fairly quiet I've been near some fully enclosed jobs including Military types (and in your size class that might be the way to go) that were not bad.. Flat head 4 cylinder engine and enclosed generator makes for fairly soft sound with a good muffler. I've had a fully enclosed 1KW "Traditional" generator that when it comes to nearly all specs save power out matched a Honda EU-2000i, This was a true Killowatt generator (1,000 watts constant) sound level was close to the Honda at full load (I think -59 DB) fuel consumption and weight all close to the Honda 2000. And of course "Contractor" models, which should come with ear plugs. It pays to check: I looked at a Briggs and Stratton 7KW unit that runs on propane, and was astonished to see a noise rating of 72 db. The unit is completely enclosed, and is intended for permanent installation, so it boggles my mind that anyone would buy one unless they intend to have a sound-dampening enclosure built around it after the installation. Of course, noise is always a factor: even on outings like Field Day, which is, after all, intended to simulate emergency conditions, it can cause operator fatigue and errors. I once attended a Field Day in California, and the noise from one of the generators was so intense that the hams needed headphones just to hear the rigs. What I want is a tri-fuel unit that will run on propane, diesel, or gas, which has a sound rating below 60 db, which runs eight hours between refuelings, and which costs less than $700. It's like the old joke from the System Administrators: "'No bugs', 'Meets spec', 'On deadline': pick two". As a "for instance", I just looked at the specs of a B&S Model 40248 that I saw on epay - Output Sound Level . .81 dB(A) at 23 ft. (7 m) at full load Which is, of course, of great concern. My advice is to assume that you'll need to pay for additional sound dampening no matter what generator you choose unless you have personal experience with the model you're buying. 73, Bill, W1AC -- Bill Horne (Remove QRM from my address to write to me directly) |
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