Steve Bonine wrote in
m:

wrote:

I think that in the past couple of decades the focus has been too
much on learning just enough to pass the test, and reducing how much
has to really be learned to pass those tests, rather than
understanding basic radio. I don't think it helps a newcomer to have
a license yet not know the basics, like how to put up an effective HF
antenna in a limited space.

The difference is that in today's environment the student learns how
to pass the test, rather than learning the actual material. Instead
of learning E=IR, today's student memorizes the specific
questions/answers on Ohm's law that are in the question pool. They
might be able to tell you that the voltage drop across a 2 ohm
resistor with 2 amps of current was 4 volts, but if you asked them why
that was the case or what it meant, they wouldn't have a clue. Or
care.

How bad this is depends on how you perceive the goal of the exam, and
what you expect a newly-licensed amateur radio operator to be able to
do.

If you perceive the exam as a barrier to entry, it continues to
accomplish that goal. It serves as an indication that the individual
was willing to dedicate enough effort to memorize the questions so
that they could pass the test. Oddly enough, this is exactly the same
thing that the code requirement did, with about the same amount of
useful remaining knowledge for most people.


Up for a challenge? Memorize the Extra test, all 800 some questions
in the pool. Then let's take a test. I'll give you the test question
number, and you give me the letter answer. Since memorization presumably
has nothing to do with the knowledge, this should be easy as the new
applicants have in taking the so called dumbed down tests




On the other hand, if you think that a newly-licensed amateur radio
operator should actually know something about radio, that's simply not
happening these days. They can tell you the very specific information
that is covered on questions in the exam, but have no real knowledge
of radio.

A lot of Technicians I know used the "Now You're Talking" books.
Lots of stuff in there that prepares you for radio operations.


When I was a beginner, it was not unusual for complete newcomers to
build their own first stations - receiver and transmitter - from
scratch. Kitbuilding was even more common. Look at the beginner
projects of 40-50 years ago vs. today - they tell the story.

But look at the interest profile of the hams of the two time periods.
Hams in the 60s were interested in radio, in building equipment, in
fiddling with antennas. With minor exceptions, that is not true
today.

Where did you get that?


I'll have to admit that I don't know what is the big "draw" that's
pulling new hams into the hobby, but it's not the same as 40-50 years
ago.

In this sense, the testing and licensing mechanism has changed
appropriately to match the current culture. Why should someone be
required to learn radio theory if they are going to twirl the dial on
a piece of commercial equipment? Rules and regulations, yes. But
Ohm's law?

Do you think that most new hams get their license, then hire people
to put their stations together after they buy their "Yaecomwood"
boxes?

And consider this: There are classes today that promise "Technician
in a day" - and they succeed. Is that a good thing, though? Do the
new hams who get their licenses that way really have the background
needed?

The background needed for what? For keying the mike on an HT? Yeah,
maybe they do.

I'll bet those stupid Novices used to bother the good Hams too....
;^)

When I was licensed in 1963, I figure I spent about five hours a week
for six weeks to learn the code and theory for the Novice license.
Then I got on the air and spent time building up my code speed, plus
learning enough theory to pass the General exam.

I spent 6 months learning Morse code to 5 wpm, failing my first test.
Aced the other tests.


In today's world, the number of people willing to expend that much
effort on a hobby is vanishingly close to zero. There are exactly two
choices -- change the requirements to enter the hobby, or watch the
hobby die. The requirements were changed.

I respectfully disagree. Since we started a new program to recruit
and test new hams (and upgrade old ones) we've been doing at least one a
month. We're working well above attrition and the actuarial tables.
That's hardly vanishingly small interest.

That's just the start. We have a station for the new guys and gals
to use, with a control Op if need be (usually me) to sit with 'em as
they get their feet wet.

Wanna know the best way to turn off new hams? Be grumpy and
superior. Know for sure that you had a much harder time to earn your
stripes than they did. Don't talk to them at club meetings. Make sure
they know you're superior, so don't miss a chance to tell em that. With
that sort of attitude you'll have a self fulfilling prophecy. Ham radio
will die - all around you, wherever you go.

- 73 de Mike KB3EIA -

"Mike Coslo" wrote:

Up for a challenge? Memorize the Extra test, all 800 some questions
in the pool. Then let's take a test. I'll give you the test question
number, and you give me the letter answer. Since memorization presumably
has nothing to do with the knowledge, this should be easy as the new
applicants have in taking the so called dumbed down tests

That isn't how memorization works.

While there may be some people who "memorize" the question and answer, in
reality what most people are referring to when they talk about
"memorization" is in fact something more akin to "word association" or
"familiarity".

All one has to do is read the question pool enough, or drill long enough
using a computer program, that they will "recognize" the correct answer when
they see it. They don't actually "memorize" the question pool per se, such
that they know the answer to question ### is AAA. No, instead, they simply
become familiar enough with it that they can recognize the correct answer to
the question, much the same way you become familiar with many things in life
without actually "memorizing" them.


A lot of Technicians I know used the "Now You're Talking" books.
Lots of stuff in there that prepares you for radio operations.

When I got my tech license, I used the Gorden West book. That's not how I
passed the exams though.


Do you think that most new hams get their license, then hire people
to put their stations together after they buy their "Yaecomwood"
boxes?

"putting a station" together these days involves little more than calling
HRO, unpacking the boxes UPS delivers, and plugging everything in. Not much
theory required there.

73
KH6HZ

KH6HZ wrote:
All one has to do is read the question pool enough, or drill long enough
using a computer program, that they will "recognize" the correct answer when
they see it.

The majority of a grammar school education probably
uses that method of learning.
--
73, Cecil http://www.w5dxp.com

"Cecil Moore" wrote:

The majority of a grammar school education probably
uses that method of learning.

Not sure of your grammer school experience, since you're older than I am,
but mine mainly rested on rote-memorization. Vocabulary, math tables, etc.

"KH6HZ" wrote in message
...
"Cecil Moore" wrote:

The majority of a grammar school education probably
uses that method of learning.

Not sure of your grammer school experience, since you're older than I am,
but mine mainly rested on rote-memorization. Vocabulary, math tables, etc.


That is because for the material being taught in grammar school, the rote
memorization approach is probably the most appropriate. There's really no
other way to learn math tables except repetition via memorization.

Dee, N8UZE

Cecil Moore wrote in
:

KH6HZ wrote:
All one has to do is read the question pool enough, or drill long
enough using a computer program, that they will "recognize" the
correct answer when they see it.

The majority of a grammar school education probably
uses that method of learning.

Very true - a most old fashioned way of teaching.

Some hams won't be satisfied with the testing regimen unless the tests are
so hard that no one can pass them.

- 73 de Mike KB3EIA -

Mike Coslo wrote:
Cecil Moore wrote in
:
..hams won't be satisfied with the testing regimen unless the tests are
so hard that no one can pass them.

indeed that is the goal to end the ARS since they lost the war on code
testing

"KH6HZ" wrote in message
...
"Mike Coslo" wrote:

Up for a challenge? Memorize the Extra test, all 800 some questions
in the pool. Then let's take a test. I'll give you the test question
number, and you give me the letter answer. Since memorization presumably
has nothing to do with the knowledge, this should be easy as the new
applicants have in taking the so called dumbed down tests

That isn't how memorization works.

While there may be some people who "memorize" the question and answer, in
reality what most people are referring to when they talk about
"memorization" is in fact something more akin to "word association" or
"familiarity".

All one has to do is read the question pool enough, or drill long enough
using a computer program, that they will "recognize" the correct answer
when they see it. They don't actually "memorize" the question pool per se,
such that they know the answer to question ### is AAA. No, instead, they
simply become familiar enough with it that they can recognize the correct
answer to the question, much the same way you become familiar with many
things in life without actually "memorizing" them.



Besides memorizing that way will lead to certain failure. The questions and
answers on the exam are worded the same way BUT the answers are allowed to
be in a different order and they are. The reason is to prevent people
memorizing the A, B, C, or D.

Dee, N8UZE

"Dee Flint" wrote:

Besides memorizing that way will lead to certain failure. The questions
and answers on the exam are worded the same way BUT the answers are
allowed to be in a different order and they are. The reason is to prevent
people memorizing the A, B, C, or D.

True. I would say the vast majority of people who "memorize" the question
pools do not actually "memorize" verbatim the questions and answers, but
instead simply familiarize themselves enough with the pools such that they
can recognize the correct answer on the examination, regardless of whether
it appears in position A, B, C, or D.

Granted, certain types of questions lend themselves to 'rote memorization'.
Definitions, for instance. An ohm is an ohm is not a watt. Most of the
regulations probably also fall into this category as well, as do things like
circuit diagram symbols. You just have to "know" where band limits are, and
what a NPN transistor "looks like".

I've always been a proponent of eliminating question pools, and instead
allowing computer programs to randomly generate question sets. No longer
would there be a "where on the HF 80m bands are you allowed to transmit CW?"
question with 4 static answers. Instead, the question could have 1 randomly
generated correct answer and 3 randomly generated detractors.

Such a test setup would at least ensure that folks taking the test have the
requisite knowledge base to pass the test, and didn't simply familiarize
themselves w/ the question pool enough to successfully pass the test.

73
KH6HZ

KH6HZ wrote:
"Dee Flint" wrote:

Besides memorizing that way will lead to certain failure. The questions
and answers on the exam are worded the same way BUT the answers are
allowed to be in a different order and they are. The reason is to prevent
people memorizing the A, B, C, or D.

True. I would say the vast majority of people who "memorize" the question
pools do not actually "memorize" verbatim the questions and answers, but
instead simply familiarize themselves enough with the pools such that they
can recognize the correct answer on the examination, regardless of whether
it appears in position A, B, C, or D.

Granted, certain types of questions lend themselves to 'rote memorization'.
Definitions, for instance. An ohm is an ohm is not a watt. Most of the
regulations probably also fall into this category as well, as do things like
circuit diagram symbols. You just have to "know" where band limits are, and
what a NPN transistor "looks like".

I've always been a proponent of eliminating question pools, and instead
allowing computer programs to randomly generate question sets. No longer
would there be a "where on the HF 80m bands are you allowed to transmit CW?"
question with 4 static answers. Instead, the question could have 1 randomly
generated correct answer and 3 randomly generated detractors.

Such a test setup would at least ensure that folks taking the test have the
requisite knowledge base to pass the test, and didn't simply familiarize
themselves w/ the question pool enough to successfully pass the test.

now if you can describe to me how this does 2 thing you will have my
suport for a proposal

one how does it serve the interest of the ARS

two how does it serve the interest of the public at large

it was lateer that the Porocders realy feel down and the later is most
important

73
KH6HZ