Stefan Wolfe wrote:

wrote in message
...
Stefan Wolfe wrote:

"KC4UAI" wrote in message
ups.com...
On Feb 5, 9:53 pm, "Stefan Wolfe" wrote:
"KC4UAI" wrote in message

ups.com...

On Feb 2, 9:20 pm, "Stefan Wolfe" wrote:
And is it legal for a licensed amateur to violate rules of a
sovereign
country (no matter how well-intentioned?

Um...

Until this guy gets convicted of a crime in the US, the FCC won't
have
much to say...

So, are you saying he violated US law? If not then what's the
point?

The US Government tends to frown on US citizens providing material
support
snip

Then, get the guy convicted of a crime and *then* complain to the FCC
about his license... The FCC is not in the business of enforcing all
the laws of the US, just the ones they wrote.

If it involves illegal transmission by a US citizen or resident of
electromagnetic waves anywhere, between 3000Hz and light waves, it is
within
the FCC's scope to take action.

If the action violates US law and occured on US soil, the FCC can take
action.

If not, the foreign government can prosecute if the offender is on their
soil, or if not and there is a treaty, ask the US for extradition of the
offender, none of which would involve the FCC.

The FCC has no jurisdiction over anything that happens on foreign soil.

The FCC could take action after the person was convicted by a foreign
government under the various character clauses.

On more than one occasion, shortwave pirate broadcasters have taken their
radio equipment onto to a ship, sailed out to international waters and
transmitted. In every case, when the ship returned to USA waters, the FCC
seized their equipment and prosecuted the pirate broadcasters.

The offenses did not occur on USA territory.

The FCC acted in accordance with treaties signed by the USA and other ITU
members.

QED.

Not hardly.

What was the registry of the ships?

If US, US law applies, if not it depends on existing treaties.

Plus there is a big difference between international waters and being
inside the borders of a foreign nation.

The FCC isn't the world police over anything.

--
Jim Pennino

Remove .spam.sux to reply.

wrote in message
...
Stefan Wolfe wrote:

wrote in message
...
Stefan Wolfe wrote:

"KC4UAI" wrote in message
ups.com...
On Feb 5, 9:53 pm, "Stefan Wolfe" wrote:
"KC4UAI" wrote in message

ups.com...

On Feb 2, 9:20 pm, "Stefan Wolfe" wrote:
And is it legal for a licensed amateur to violate rules of a
sovereign
country (no matter how well-intentioned?

Um...

Until this guy gets convicted of a crime in the US, the FCC won't
have
much to say...

So, are you saying he violated US law? If not then what's the
point?

The US Government tends to frown on US citizens providing material
support
snip

Then, get the guy convicted of a crime and *then* complain to the
FCC
about his license... The FCC is not in the business of enforcing
all
the laws of the US, just the ones they wrote.

If it involves illegal transmission by a US citizen or resident of
electromagnetic waves anywhere, between 3000Hz and light waves, it is
within
the FCC's scope to take action.

If the action violates US law and occured on US soil, the FCC can take
action.

If not, the foreign government can prosecute if the offender is on
their
soil, or if not and there is a treaty, ask the US for extradition of
the
offender, none of which would involve the FCC.

The FCC has no jurisdiction over anything that happens on foreign soil.

The FCC could take action after the person was convicted by a foreign
government under the various character clauses.

On more than one occasion, shortwave pirate broadcasters have taken their
radio equipment onto to a ship, sailed out to international waters and
transmitted. In every case, when the ship returned to USA waters, the FCC
seized their equipment and prosecuted the pirate broadcasters.

The offenses did not occur on USA territory.

The FCC acted in accordance with treaties signed by the USA and other ITU
members.

QED.

Not hardly.

What was the registry of the ships?

If US, US law applies, if not it depends on existing treaties.

Plus there is a big difference between international waters and being
inside the borders of a foreign nation.

The FCC isn't the world police over anything.

Ship's registry doesn't matter but I doubt that any of them were US flag
vessels.

As I said, QED.

Stefan Wolfe wrote:

wrote in message
...
Stefan Wolfe wrote:

wrote in message
...
Stefan Wolfe wrote:

"KC4UAI" wrote in message
ups.com...
On Feb 5, 9:53 pm, "Stefan Wolfe" wrote:
"KC4UAI" wrote in message

ups.com...

On Feb 2, 9:20 pm, "Stefan Wolfe" wrote:
And is it legal for a licensed amateur to violate rules of a
sovereign
country (no matter how well-intentioned?

Um...

Until this guy gets convicted of a crime in the US, the FCC won't
have
much to say...

So, are you saying he violated US law? If not then what's the
point?

The US Government tends to frown on US citizens providing material
support
snip

Then, get the guy convicted of a crime and *then* complain to the
FCC
about his license... The FCC is not in the business of enforcing
all
the laws of the US, just the ones they wrote.

If it involves illegal transmission by a US citizen or resident of
electromagnetic waves anywhere, between 3000Hz and light waves, it is
within
the FCC's scope to take action.

If the action violates US law and occured on US soil, the FCC can take
action.

If not, the foreign government can prosecute if the offender is on
their
soil, or if not and there is a treaty, ask the US for extradition of
the
offender, none of which would involve the FCC.

The FCC has no jurisdiction over anything that happens on foreign soil.

The FCC could take action after the person was convicted by a foreign
government under the various character clauses.

On more than one occasion, shortwave pirate broadcasters have taken their
radio equipment onto to a ship, sailed out to international waters and
transmitted. In every case, when the ship returned to USA waters, the FCC
seized their equipment and prosecuted the pirate broadcasters.

The offenses did not occur on USA territory.

The FCC acted in accordance with treaties signed by the USA and other ITU
members.

QED.

Not hardly.

What was the registry of the ships?

If US, US law applies, if not it depends on existing treaties.

Plus there is a big difference between international waters and being
inside the borders of a foreign nation.

The FCC isn't the world police over anything.

Ship's registry doesn't matter but I doubt that any of them were US flag
vessels.

As I said, QED.

Not at all.

Bank robbery is under the jurisdiction of the FBI in the US.

If a US citizen commits bank robbery in twobitestan and returns to the
US, the FBI will only get involved upon the request of the twobitestan
government if there are appropriate treaties and action is initiated
by the twobitestan government.

And ship's registry matters a lot while in international waters.

US law is not preeminent over any other government's laws on foreign
soil.

If it were, we wouldn't have US citizens punished under foreign law on
foreign soil for acts that are legal under US law.

--
Jim Pennino

Remove .spam.sux to reply.

Stefan Wolfe wrote:
"KC4UAI" wrote in message
ups.com...
On Feb 5, 9:53 pm, "Stefan Wolfe" wrote:
"KC4UAI" wrote in message

ups.com...

On Feb 2, 9:20 pm, "Stefan Wolfe" wrote:
And is it legal for a licensed amateur to violate rules of a sovereign
country (no matter how well-intentioned?
Um...
Until this guy gets convicted of a crime in the US, the FCC won't have
much to say...
So, are you saying he violated US law? If not then what's the point?
The US Government tends to frown on US citizens providing material
support
snip

Then, get the guy convicted of a crime and *then* complain to the FCC
about his license... The FCC is not in the business of enforcing all
the laws of the US, just the ones they wrote.

If it involves illegal transmission by a US citizen or resident of
electromagnetic waves anywhere, between 3000Hz and light waves, it is within
the FCC's scope to take action.

You should really rethink your position. A couple of people here have
attempted to steer you in the right direction. The FCC has no
jurisdiction in a foreign land.

Dave K8MN

wrote in message
...
Stefan Wolfe wrote:

wrote in message
...
Stefan Wolfe wrote:

wrote in message
...
Stefan Wolfe wrote:

"KC4UAI" wrote in message
ups.com...
On Feb 5, 9:53 pm, "Stefan Wolfe" wrote:
"KC4UAI" wrote in message

ups.com...

On Feb 2, 9:20 pm, "Stefan Wolfe" wrote:
And is it legal for a licensed amateur to violate rules of a
sovereign
country (no matter how well-intentioned?

Um...

Until this guy gets convicted of a crime in the US, the FCC
won't
have
much to say...

So, are you saying he violated US law? If not then what's the
point?

The US Government tends to frown on US citizens providing
material
support
snip

Then, get the guy convicted of a crime and *then* complain to the
FCC
about his license... The FCC is not in the business of enforcing
all
the laws of the US, just the ones they wrote.

If it involves illegal transmission by a US citizen or resident of
electromagnetic waves anywhere, between 3000Hz and light waves, it
is
within
the FCC's scope to take action.

If the action violates US law and occured on US soil, the FCC can
take
action.

If not, the foreign government can prosecute if the offender is on
their
soil, or if not and there is a treaty, ask the US for extradition of
the
offender, none of which would involve the FCC.

The FCC has no jurisdiction over anything that happens on foreign
soil.

The FCC could take action after the person was convicted by a
foreign
government under the various character clauses.

On more than one occasion, shortwave pirate broadcasters have taken
their
radio equipment onto to a ship, sailed out to international waters and
transmitted. In every case, when the ship returned to USA waters, the
FCC
seized their equipment and prosecuted the pirate broadcasters.

The offenses did not occur on USA territory.

The FCC acted in accordance with treaties signed by the USA and other
ITU
members.

QED.

Not hardly.

What was the registry of the ships?

If US, US law applies, if not it depends on existing treaties.

Plus there is a big difference between international waters and being
inside the borders of a foreign nation.

The FCC isn't the world police over anything.

Ship's registry doesn't matter but I doubt that any of them were US flag
vessels.

As I said, QED.

Not at all.

Bank robbery is under the jurisdiction of the FBI in the US.

If a US citizen commits bank robbery in twobitestan and returns to the
US, the FBI will only get involved upon the request of the twobitestan
government if there are appropriate treaties and action is initiated
by the twobitestan government.

And ship's registry matters a lot while in international waters.

US law is not preeminent over any other government's laws on foreign
soil.

If it were, we wouldn't have US citizens punished under foreign law on
foreign soil for acts that are legal under US law.

OK, so I can sail out of New York harbor in a Panamanian flagged vessel and
sail past the 250 mile limit and transmit whatever I want, say at 500,000W,
as a pirate with no call sign, without fear of retribution from the FCC when
I return to New York harbor, under the auspices that FCC has no authority
over my transmissions in international waters, even though I am in complete
violation of USA ITU treaty agreements? If this were actually legal, do you
realize how many stations would be doing exactly that?

Stefan Wolfe wrote:

snip

OK, so I can sail out of New York harbor in a Panamanian flagged vessel and
sail past the 250 mile limit and transmit whatever I want, say at 500,000W,
as a pirate with no call sign, without fear of retribution from the FCC when
I return to New York harbor, under the auspices that FCC has no authority
over my transmissions in international waters, even though I am in complete
violation of USA ITU treaty agreements? If this were actually legal, do you
realize how many stations would be doing exactly that?

And what does being on a ship in international waters have to do with
a case where a person is inside the national borders of a foreign
government?

--
Jim Pennino

Remove .spam.sux to reply.

On Feb 6, 5:55 pm, "Stefan Wolfe" wrote:
It seems like you and K0HB are saying "You are wrong because
it doesn't affect the FCC.

Hi Stefan,

Not quite what I'm saying.

I'm saying the the US FCC has no jurisdiction to enforce the laws of
another country. If any laws are broken in this case, they are broken
in Mynamar (Burma), and FCC has no jursidiction outside the USA or US
flagged vessels on the high seas (neither does the FBI for that
matter) .

73, de Hans, K0HB

On Feb 6, 11:11�pm, Dave Heil wrote:
Stefan Wolfe wrote:
"KC4UAI" wrote in message
oups.com...
On Feb 5, 9:53 pm, "Stefan Wolfe" wrote:
"KC4UAI" wrote in message

groups.com...

On Feb 2, 9:20 pm, "Stefan Wolfe" wrote:
And is it legal for a licensed amateur to violate rules of a sovereign
country (no matter how well-intentioned?
Um...
Until this guy gets convicted of a crime in the US, the FCC won't have
much to say...
So, are you saying he violated US law? *If not then what's the point?
The US Government tends to frown on US citizens providing material
support
snip

Then, get the guy convicted of a crime and *then* complain to the FCC
about his license... *The FCC is not in the business of enforcing all
the laws of the US, just the ones they wrote.

If it involves illegal transmission by a US citizen or resident of
electromagnetic waves anywhere, between 3000Hz and light waves, it is within
the FCC's scope to take action.

You should really rethink your position. *A couple of people here have
attempted to steer you in the right direction. *The FCC has no
jurisdiction in a foreign land.

I think the FCC could take some very indirect action, if they really
wanted to. That does not mean FCC has jurisdiction outside US-
controlled territory.

For example, if a person commits communications-related violations
elsewhere, FCC could consider those violations as a "character issue"
when issuing or renewing someone's FCC license. That thinking goes
along the lines of "if the person won't follow the communications laws
of Country X when the person is in Country X, why should we expect
that person to follow FCC rules when they are under FCC
jurisdiction?".

FCC has used a similar argument against the licenses of people
convicted of non-radio crimes in the USA.

So while it is not directly going after someone for violations
committed outside FCC's jurisdiction, those violations could have FCC-
related consequences.

73 de Jim, N2EY

wrote:
On Feb 6, 11:11�pm, Dave Heil wrote:
Stefan Wolfe wrote:
"KC4UAI" wrote in message
ups.com...
On Feb 5, 9:53 pm, "Stefan Wolfe" wrote:
"KC4UAI" wrote in message
ups.com...
On Feb 2, 9:20 pm, "Stefan Wolfe" wrote:
And is it legal for a licensed amateur to violate rules of a sovereign
country (no matter how well-intentioned?
Um...
Until this guy gets convicted of a crime in the US, the FCC won't have
much to say...
So, are you saying he violated US law? �If not then what's the point?
The US Government tends to frown on US citizens providing material
support
snip
Then, get the guy convicted of a crime and *then* complain to the FCC
about his license... �The FCC is not in the business of enforcing all
the laws of the US, just the ones they wrote.
If it involves illegal transmission by a US citizen or resident of
electromagnetic waves anywhere, between 3000Hz and light waves, it is within
the FCC's scope to take action.
You should really rethink your position. �A couple of people here have
attempted to steer you in the right direction. �The FCC has no
jurisdiction in a foreign land.

I think the FCC could take some very indirect action, if they really
wanted to. That does not mean FCC has jurisdiction outside US-
controlled territory.

Right. "Could" but not "will".

For example, if a person commits communications-related violations
elsewhere, FCC could consider those violations as a "character issue"
when issuing or renewing someone's FCC license. That thinking goes
along the lines of "if the person won't follow the communications laws
of Country X when the person is in Country X, why should we expect
that person to follow FCC rules when they are under FCC
jurisdiction?".

If it doesn't come up in criminal or civil prosecution by the foreign
government, it'll never blip the radar at the FCC. Until or unless one
of those takes place, it is simply hearsay.

FCC has used a similar argument against the licenses of people
convicted of non-radio crimes in the USA.

....but I don't know of a single case where the FCC has acted based upon
what an individual has done outside the United States, radio related or not.

So while it is not directly going after someone for violations
committed outside FCC's jurisdiction, those violations could have FCC-
related consequences.

I'd think it very unlikely unless an individual is prosecuted and found
guilty in a foreign court.

73 de Jim, N2EY

Dave K8MN

On Feb 8, 12:16�pm, Dave Heil wrote:
wrote:
On Feb 6, 11:11?pm, Dave Heil wrote:
Stefan Wolfe wrote:
"KC4UAI" wrote in message
groups.com...
On Feb 5, 9:53 pm, "Stefan Wolfe" wrote:
"KC4UAI" wrote in message
legroups.com...
On Feb 2, 9:20 pm, "Stefan Wolfe" wrote:
And is it legal for a licensed amateur to violate rules of a sovereign
country (no matter how well-intentioned?
Um...
Until this guy gets convicted of a crime in the US, the FCC won't have
much to say...
So, are you saying he violated US law? ?If not then what's the point?
The US Government tends to frown on US citizens providing material
support
snip
Then, get the guy convicted of a crime and *then* complain to the FCC
about his license... ?The FCC is not in the business of enforcing all
the laws of the US, just the ones they wrote.
If it involves illegal transmission by a US citizen or resident of
electromagnetic waves anywhere, between 3000Hz and light waves, it is within
the FCC's scope to take action.
You should really rethink your position. ?A couple of people here have
attempted to steer you in the right direction. ?The FCC has no
jurisdiction in a foreign land.

I think the FCC could take some very indirect action, if they really
wanted to. That does not mean FCC has jurisdiction outside US-
controlled territory.

Right. *"Could" but not "will".

Better yet, "may".

For example, if a person commits communications-related violations
elsewhere, FCC could consider those violations as a "character issue"
when issuing or renewing someone's FCC license. That thinking goes
along the lines of "if the person won't follow the communications laws
of Country X when the person is in Country X, why should we expect
that person to follow FCC rules when they are under FCC
jurisdiction?".

If it doesn't come up in criminal or civil prosecution by the foreign
government, it'll never blip the radar at the FCC. *Until or unless one
of those takes place, it is simply hearsay.

Good point! It takes a conviction, not just an accusation.

FCC has used a similar argument against the licenses of people
convicted of non-radio crimes in the USA.

...but I don't know of a single case where the FCC has acted based upon
what an individual has done outside the United States, radio related or not.

I don't either. Point is, they have the authority to do it *if* there
is a conviction and at their own discretion.

So while it is not directly going after someone for violations
committed outside FCC's jurisdiction, those violations could have FCC-
related consequences.

I'd think it very unlikely unless an individual is prosecuted and found
guilty in a foreign court.

Unlikely but not impossible.

73 de Jim, N2EY