Residence vs. Mailing Address
 

On Feb 16, 11:54�pm, wrote:
On Feb 16, 5:49 pm, wrote:
On Feb 16, 3:55?pm, "
wrote:

* *fraudulently claimed a Hawaiian
Post Office Box address as being his "residence," one
that would allow him to obtain a Hawaiian amateur
radio station call sign. ?

Len:

I suggest you read Part 97 again.

I suggest you go to your local Post Office and ask
them about renting
a PO Box then using it for other people.

Why?

What matters is what the regulations were back then, not
what they are now.

The regulations do not require that someone give the FCC
their "residence". All the FCC requires is a valid mailing
address.

Just any valid mailing address?

That question has already been answered. See (1) below

In the case of certain callsigns, the mailing address
must be in certain locations, such as Hawaii, but there is
no residence requirement.

Just any valid mailing address?

That question has already been answered. See (1) below

FCC used to care about where a licensee lived, and the
actual station location. But all that changed many years
ago, and all they have required for may years is a valid
mailing address where the licensee may receive mail
from FCC.

(1) a valid mailing address where the licensee may
receive mail from FCC.

What do the Postal Regulations say about it?

I don't know what they said about it in 2000. That's
what matters.

There are a number of retired "RV" people nowadays who
don't really have a "residence" in the classic sense. They
live in their RVs, travelling the country as they see fit, and
living wherever their travel leads them. At least some of them
are radio amateurs.

Of course they have a "mailing address", which is often just
a post office box. Someone checks their mail regularly, and
deals with important items as needed. FCC and the post office
have no problem with this, and no fraud is involved.

In some rural areas, people maintain post office boxes
"in town" and pick up their mail there when they get to town.
FCC and the post office have no problem with this, and no
fraud is involved.

How are these cases any different from the use of a Hawaiian
post office box?

After all, the FCC did accept and process the vanity call
applications, and did issue the callsigns. Perhaps it was
simply a misunderstanding of the intent of the rules,
rather than the letter of the law.

The government can be defrauded as well as anyone,

That's true.

and there was no misunderstanding.

How do you know?

Obviously the vanity callsign applications met the
letter of the law - otherwise FCC would not have
processed them nor issued the callsigns. Whether
the met the *intent* of the law is another issue, and
intent is a matter of interpretation.

*It was poor amateur practice.

Why?

Were the callsigns that were cancelled ones that other
amateurs wanted, but could not get?

Have any of the cancelled callsigns been reissued
through the vanity callsign program?

FCC has issued some vanity callsigns that some consider
inappropriate for the amateur radio service. Those
callsigns
would not normally be issued in sequence, so the FCC is
aware of the controversy, yet they issued those callsigns
when requested through the vanity program.

We're not talking about Kim, we're talking about
Michael P. Deignan of the RF Commandos.

The subject is the letter of the law regarding vanity callsigns
versus the intent of that law. There's also the question of
good vs. poor amateur practice.

Kim is not the only amateur, nor the first, to have a callsign
that some consider inappropriate. Indeed, she was not the
first to have a callsign with a certain particular suffix.

MD is not the only amateur
to be trustee of multiple club callsigns.

There was lengthy discussion here about the appropriateness
of certain Amateur Radio vanity callsigns. The defense was
that if the FCC issued the callsigns, they were appropriate.
Although I was initially unconvinced, I changed my mind.

Is that not correct?

Besides - all that stuff about the club calls is more than six
years old. Why are you living in the past?

In ham years that was barely yesterday.

If it is OK to discuss those old callsign events, then it's
also OK to discuss other old events, such as boasts of
getting an Extra out of the box, or of opposing real estate
zoning changes. Etc.

Is it because the
person who held all those calls was and is an advocate of
complete Morse Code test elimination?

It's because the individual incessantly tells others how to
live their ham-lives,

Where?

The person involved hadn't posted here for *years*. His
posts are rather few in number, and quite short and
to-the-point.

Other individuals who post here, including one who isn't even
a radio amateur, incessantly tell others how to live their
ham-lives. Is that wrong?

then defrauds his friend and the FCC.

How was anyone defrauded?

Was there some sort of penalty, such as a forfeiture of money
or an operator license suspension/revocation?

What brought the whole issue to FCC's attention, anyway?
Did someone want one of those callsigns?

Jim, N2EY

Residence vs. Mailing Address
 

wrote:

What matters is what the regulations were back then, not
what they are now.

Exactly.

I've had a PO Box for years. Having a rural mainland address, there are
times when my mail will collect for weeks at a time when I'm not home
(having that ocean-going trawler based in WA takes a lot of my time...) I
also don't like having clients mail me checks to my mainland home, so I use
a PO Box.

From time to time, folks I work on projects with also receive mail at my PO
box. Case in point: About a year ago I was working on a project with "Mark".
We needed a piece of software to complete the job, so "Mark" ordered the
software for us on my company credit card. Rather than it coming addressed
to "My Company, My PO Box" (the correct ship-to address which is also my CC
billing address) it was shipped to "Mark, My PO Box".

The USPS delivered it just fine. Now, from time to time, "Mark" gets mail at
my PO Box. Apparently the company sold his name on a mailing list. Still
haven't heard a peep from the Postmaster. I suspect "Mark" could also
receive non-junk-mail at my PO box just fine. I suspect the Postmaster
doesn't care. After all, if anything "bad" was ever associated with my PO
Box, the Postmaster knows where to find me.


How are these cases any different from the use of a
Hawaiian post office box?

Brian doesn't have one?


MD is not the only amateur to be trustee of multiple club
callsigns.

Only 1 club callsign at the moment, which is used exclusively on our beacons
used for DF foxhunts.


What brought the whole issue to FCC's attention, anyway?

Riley's first letter to me references coorespondence from Jeff. Since there
is no official coorespondence in the record to suggest otherwise, it is my
personal opinion that Jeff did.

73
kh6hz

Residence vs. Mailing Address
 

On Feb 17, 7:24�am, wrote:
On Feb 17, 6:52 am, "KH6HZ" wrote:

wrote:
I suggest you go to your local Post Office and ask them about renting
a PO Box then using it for other people.

Perfectly 100% legal within postal regulations.

Sure it is.

What do the Postal Regulations say about it?

Since you're the "expert" Brain, why don't you tell us?

Free clue: Be sure to refer to the pre-9/11 / Patriot Act postal
regulations.

My PO Boxes were all pre-9/11 Patriot Act. *Thanks for the distractor.

Darn! I don't have a Post Office Box! I guess I can't be
an amateur... :-(

The government can be defrauded as well as anyone, and there was no
misunderstanding. *It was poor amateur practice.

Says you. But then, you don't count.

Someone counted. *Someone counted up your call signs and mailed you a
letter.

Tsk, even the www.ah0a.org site COUNTED. Poor Mikey D.
was way down on the list...but still there.

It's because the individual incessantly tells others how to live their
ham-lives, then defrauds his friend and the FCC.

Neither the FCC nor my friend were defrauded, despite your repeated
foot-stomping and tantrums to the contrary.

I don't think he's your friend anymore, or at least he's not defending
you. *But now you have Jim.

The FCC? *Riley takes care of that business like he took care of you.

Riley Hollingsworth, Special Counsel to the FCC, has about
700,000 (give or take) licensees to "count" and "take care
of." I doubt he would even blink twice at Mikey D's dozen.
But he DID notice once and that got on the "notices."

Now if all this was so "legal" as Mikey D sez, why would it
get into the "notices?" If it was so "legal" then it should
never have been there.

No sweat, the Guru and Reknowned Historian is all for
code-tested amateur extras...they can do no real wrong
in his eyes. All "very legal." barf

Residence vs. Mailing Address
 

You must have seen the awesome "Who's Morky?" remark.

Jim stood toe to toe with the Robesinner and didn't blink (Tom Petty
playing "Won't Back Down" in the background).

Thanks for the memory jog. I always liked that song. Guess I'll have to
fire
up Limewire and see if I can d-load it.
Yup, Markie, before you jump, I am willfully violating copyright laws by
downloading old songs such as this.

Old? It doesn't seem old to me. How many ham-years ago did Tom
release it?

Like you, who conveniently blames
everybody else, I'll blame HH&C for putting me in mind of this great old
song. He made me do it.

Flip Wilson, "The Devil Made Me Do It!"

Thanks, HH&C. Have you any more songs to suggest?-

Anything by David Hasselhoff.


OK. Hasselhoff it is. Hop In My Car will be first up.

Maybe later I can get some Boy George for Mark.

Residence vs. Mailing Address
 

On Feb 17, 2:10 pm, "
wrote:
On Feb 17, 7:24?am, wrote:





On Feb 17, 6:52 am, "KH6HZ" wrote:

wrote:
I suggest you go to your local Post Office and ask them about renting
a PO Box then using it for other people.

Perfectly 100% legal within postal regulations.

Sure it is.

What do the Postal Regulations say about it?

Since you're the "expert" Brain, why don't you tell us?

Free clue: Be sure to refer to the pre-9/11 / Patriot Act postal
regulations.

My PO Boxes were all pre-9/11 Patriot Act. ?Thanks for the distractor.

Darn! I don't have a Post Office Box! I guess I can't be
an amateur... :-(

You're welcome to act amateurishly like most in RRAP.

The government can be defrauded as well as anyone, and there was no
misunderstanding. ?It was poor amateur practice.

Says you. But then, you don't count.

Someone counted. ?Someone counted up your call signs and mailed you a
letter.

Tsk, even thewww.ah0a.orgsite COUNTED. Poor Mikey D.
was way down on the list...but still there.

He's an underachiever.

It's because the individual incessantly tells others how to live their
ham-lives, then defrauds his friend and the FCC.

Neither the FCC nor my friend were defrauded, despite your repeated
foot-stomping and tantrums to the contrary.

I don't think he's your friend anymore, or at least he's not defending
you. ?But now you have Jim.

The FCC? ?Riley takes care of that business like he took care of you.

Riley Hollingsworth, Special Counsel to the FCC, has about
700,000 (give or take) licensees to "count" and "take care
of." I doubt he would even blink twice at Mikey D's dozen.
But he DID notice once and that got on the "notices."

Now if all this was so "legal" as Mikey D sez, why would it
get into the "notices?" If it was so "legal" then it should
never have been there.

If it was legal, why did Mike let all those callsigns go without so
much as a whimper?

No sweat, the Guru and Reknowned Historian is all for
code-tested amateur extras...they can do no real wrong
in his eyes. All "very legal." barf-

RHIP, but only for Extras.

Residence vs. Mailing Address
 

On Feb 17, 1:09 pm, wrote:
On Feb 16, 11:54?pm, wrote:

On Feb 16, 5:49 pm, wrote:
On Feb 16, 3:55?pm, "
wrote:

? ?fraudulently claimed a Hawaiian
Post Office Box address as being his "residence," one
that would allow him to obtain a Hawaiian amateur
radio station call sign. ?

Len:

I suggest you read Part 97 again.

I suggest you go to your local Post Office and ask
them about renting
a PO Box then using it for other people.

Why?

What matters is what the regulations were back then, not
what they are now.

Back in 1990/91, the PO Boxes on Guam were for the person listed on
the card for that box, not for friends, neighbors, and people who wish
to defraud the US Governemnt. When you sign for the box, you sign an
AGREEMENT. Hopefully, you read the agreement. Apparently Hermann did
not. Hermann got a KH2 call because he was "interested" in a job on
Guam. He had never been there.
The regulations do not require that someone give the FCC
their "residence". All the FCC requires is a valid mailing
address.

Just any valid mailing address?

That question has already been answered. See (1) below

The mailing address where the FCC can reach you. In this case, the
FCC could reach Jeffrey Hermann at the listed address, not Michael
Deignan.

In the case of certain callsigns, the mailing address
must be in certain locations, such as Hawaii, but there is
no residence requirement.

Just any valid mailing address?

That question has already been answered. See (1) below

FCC used to care about where a licensee lived, and the
actual station location. But all that changed many years
ago, and all they have required for may years is a valid
mailing address where the licensee may receive mail
from FCC.

(1) a valid mailing address where the licensee may
receive mail from FCC.

That is correct. Now see above.

What do the Postal Regulations say about it?

I don't know what they said about it in 2000. That's
what matters.

So you don't know. Shouldn't that be the end of the discussion for
you?

There are a number of retired "RV" people nowadays who
don't really have a "residence" in the classic sense. They
live in their RVs, travelling the country as they see fit, and
living wherever their travel leads them. At least some of them
are radio amateurs.

Just because something may be common doesn't make it legal.

Of course they have a "mailing address", which is often just
a post office box. Someone checks their mail regularly, and
deals with important items as needed. FCC and the post office
have no problem with this, and no fraud is involved.

Says you. Did you check?

In some rural areas, people maintain post office boxes
"in town" and pick up their mail there when they get to town.
FCC and the post office have no problem with this, and no
fraud is involved.

Newsflash... That has nothing to do with Deignan's intent to defraud
the FCC.

How are these cases any different from the use of a Hawaiian
post office box?

The intent was fraud, a KH6 callsign.

After all, the FCC did accept and process the vanity call
applications, and did issue the callsigns. Perhaps it was
simply a misunderstanding of the intent of the rules,
rather than the letter of the law.
The government can be defrauded as well as anyone,

That's true.

and there was no misunderstanding.

How do you know?

Obviously the vanity callsign applications met the
letter of the law - otherwise FCC would not have
processed them nor issued the callsigns.

Has the government never received a bad check? A fraudulent tax
return? Do they process them?

Whether
the met the *intent* of the law is another issue, and
intent is a matter of interpretation.

Poor amateur practice.

?It was poor amateur practice.

Why?

Were the callsigns that were cancelled ones that other
amateurs wanted, but could not get?

Have any of the cancelled callsigns been reissued
through the vanity callsign program?

It's like having to use the least amount of power to accomplish the
communication. One amateur callsign can't be used to accomplish the
desired communication? Well, Riley saw a problem with it.

FCC has issued some vanity callsigns that some consider
inappropriate for the amateur radio service. Those
callsigns
would not normally be issued in sequence, so the FCC is
aware of the controversy, yet they issued those callsigns
when requested through the vanity program.

We're not talking about Kim, we're talking about
Michael P. Deignan of the RF Commandos.

The subject is the letter of the law regarding vanity callsigns
versus the intent of that law. There's also the question of
good vs. poor amateur practice.

Kim is not the only amateur, nor the first, to have a callsign
that some consider inappropriate. Indeed, she was not the
first to have a callsign with a certain particular suffix.

MD is not the only amateur
to be trustee of multiple club callsigns.

There was lengthy discussion here about the appropriateness
of certain Amateur Radio vanity callsigns. The defense was
that if the FCC issued the callsigns, they were appropriate.
Although I was initially unconvinced, I changed my mind.

Is that not correct?

Diversion.

Besides - all that stuff about the club calls is more than six
years old. Why are you living in the past?

In ham years that was barely yesterday.

If it is OK to discuss those old callsign events, then it's
also OK to discuss other old events, such as boasts of
getting an Extra out of the box, or of opposing real estate
zoning changes. Etc.

You would anyway, and have.

Is it because the
person who held all those calls was and is an advocate of
complete Morse Code test elimination?

It's because the individual incessantly tells others how to
live their ham-lives,

Where?

The person involved hadn't posted here for *years*.

He's back, and I'm here to remind him of his transgressions.

His
posts are rather few in number, and quite short and
to-the-point.

So? I don't like his bahavio[u]r.

Other individuals who post here, including one who isn't even
a radio amateur, incessantly tell others how to live their
ham-lives. Is that wrong?

He doesn't tell me that I should get off the computer and study Morse
Code.

then defrauds his friend and the FCC.

How was anyone defrauded?

My tax dollars went in to the enforcement actions against Michael P.
Deignan and all the people like him. Don't you think an Extra should
know better than try a stun t like that?

Was there some sort of penalty, such as a forfeiture of money
or an operator license suspension/revocation?

Mike will tell you to look that up on the web.

What brought the whole issue to FCC's attention, anyway?
Did someone want one of those callsigns?

Jim, N2EY

My friend Jim, KH2D posted a nice essay on his KH2 website about the
greedy jerks that glom up all of the DX callsigns for no practical
purpose.

Residence vs. Mailing Address
 

On Feb 17, 2:10 pm, "KH6HZ" wrote:
wrote:
What matters is what the regulations were back then, not
what they are now.

Exactly.

No, not even close. We're not talking about now.

Deignan signed an agreement with the USPS back then. Jeffrey Hermann
signed an agreement with the USPS back then.

I've had a PO Box for years.

Then you know better.

Having a rural mainland address, there are
times when my mail will collect for weeks at a time when I'm not home
(having that ocean-going trawler based in WA takes a lot of my time...) I
also don't like having clients mail me checks to my mainland home, so I use
a PO Box.

That's certainly a legitimate use for a PO Box, but it is not
Hermann's PO Box, and that is the box in question. BTW, there was a
12th callsign at your street address issued to a YL. Don't you trust
her to keep your mail from stacking up or blowing away?

From time to time, folks I work on projects with also receive mail at my PO
box. Case in point: About a year ago I was working on a project with "Mark".
We needed a piece of software to complete the job, so "Mark" ordered the
software for us on my company credit card. Rather than it coming addressed
to "My Company, My PO Box" (the correct ship-to address which is also my CC
billing address) it was shipped to "Mark, My PO Box".

Again, "Mark" and your PO Box are not the subject of this discussion.
Hermann's box in Hawaii is.

The USPS delivered it just fine. Now, from time to time, "Mark" gets mail at
my PO Box. Apparently the company sold his name on a mailing list. Still
haven't heard a peep from the Postmaster. I suspect "Mark" could also
receive non-junk-mail at my PO box just fine. I suspect the Postmaster
doesn't care. After all, if anything "bad" was ever associated with my PO
Box, the Postmaster knows where to find me.

So basically, until charges are filed, no crime has occurred. Nice
diversion, nice defense.

How are these cases any different from the use of a
Hawaiian post office box?

Brian doesn't have one?

Not presently.

MD is not the only amateur to be trustee of multiple club
callsigns.

Only 1 club callsign at the moment, which is used exclusively on our beacons
used for DF foxhunts.

Almost interesting. Most any other DF club seems to be able to get by
with the callsign of the beacon owner with a "stroke B" to indicate
that its a beacon.

What brought the whole issue to FCC's attention, anyway?

Riley's first letter to me references coorespondence from Jeff. Since there
is no official coorespondence in the record to suggest otherwise, it is my
personal opinion that Jeff did.

73
kh6hz

Sounds like "Hot Water" and "Cold Feet." Greed cost Mike a friend.

Residence vs. Mailing Address
 

wrote:

In this case, the
FCC could reach Jeffrey Hermann at the listed address, not Michael
Deignan.

Odd, I received all the licenses mailed to me at the Hawaii address. Thus,
clearly, the FCC reached me at that address just fine.

Please play again soon!

Residence vs. Mailing Address
 

From: on Fri, Feb 16 2007 9:27 pm

On Feb 16, 7:50 pm, " wrote:
On Feb 16, 2:49?pm, wrote:
On Feb 16, 3:55?pm, " wrote:

After all, the FCC did accept and process the vanity call
applications, and did issue the callsigns. Perhaps it was
simply a misunderstanding of the intent of the rules,
rather than the letter of the law.

Sweetums, you are indeed NAIVE. "Misunderstanding
the intent of the rules" is total bull**** on your part.
Deignan saw what others were already doing and wanted
a piece of the action, plus getting a spiffy Hawaiian call
in the same process. He took advantage that few would
notice it in Gettysburg (they didn't) and bingo, there was
the spiffy "vanity call" denoting the state of Hawaii!

Jim will wail and cry about Haliburton giving a service in the most
dangerous part of the world and expecting to be paid a high price for
it. But if another Extra wants a bunch of "club" calls and gloms a
KH6 personal call, then he rightly deserves them and is ENTITLED
(RHIP).

Abso-huckin-lutely...IF that extra has taken a code test.


You never saw all the "club call" listings atwww.ah0a.org?
Must not have (you turn a blind eye on many things).

Jim has never been to the AH0A site. Hi!

Pfaugh...but he "knows" about one small section of L.A.
real estate...NOT.


FCC has issued some vanity callsigns that some consider
inappropriate for the amateur radio service. Those callsigns
would not normally be issued in sequence, so the FCC is
aware of the controversy, yet they issued those callsigns
when requested through the vanity program.

Go and admonish some yokel who thinks you are some
kind of ancient guru-figure official. We regulars know
better.

Kim's callsign was just a diversion, unrelated to fraud.

Riiiiight...to all the manly men in here...


Besides - all that stuff about the club calls is more than six
years old.

Tsk, tsk! That's one year NEWER than your many-times-
repeated "boast of mine" about getting "an extra out-of-the-
box."

Selective ham years.

Selective ANYTHING to Cranky...if he can possibly find some
imagined moral-ethical "defect" in another who disagrees
with him.


Why are you living in the past?

...so asks the ancient guru of hamme raddio expounding on
"Bandplans of 1940" inwww.eham.netAS IF they ever applied
to His life experience.

Jim is the reincarnation of Hiram.

Let's all chip in for a nice bouquet of carnations for him.

Copies of carnations...call them "re-carnations."


Is it because the
person who held all those calls was and is an advocate of
complete Morse Code test elimination?

Total bull****, ancient guru. Deignan was always out for Deignan.

That's a fact, Jack!

He's an O. J. Snipeson showing "the glove don't fit."


Yeah, he passed an extra test at one time in the past. He got
an extra call. But...the ex-captain of the "Effluvia" WANTED
MORE. So, with the aid of a buddie in Hawaii, he conspires to
get a spiffy HAWAIIAN call (the "KH6" prefix) that would NOT
be issued to a (then) Rhode Island resident. Not only that, he
dreamed up a dozen FAKE "clubs" and got callsigns for them,
too.

But he's an Extra. RHIP.

Of course...they "deserve" to do anything they want...


Why don't you go back to your private little corner of OLDE TYMES
and memorize all the OLD rules so you can play the ancient guru
"authority" on times long gone? Or go get laid. [have you lost
your virginity yet?]

Yikes! Jim's sexuality or lack thereof has no place in RRAP.

Okay, so he's got a lot of "lack thereof." His problem.
But, the problem manifests itself with his actions in
here...


Better yet, why don't you arrange a 'sked' with K4YZ on "CW."
Then you can slap him directly over your very own raddio instead
of pretending to be a tuff guy in here?

You must have seen the awesome "Who's Morky?" remark.

Jim stood toe to toe with the Robesinner and didn't blink (Tom Petty
playing "Won't Back Down" in the background).

Sure...sure...meanwhile I'll get Kyle Petty to zoom it up
close to both of them...VERY close.

Red flag...red flag...debris on the track...

Geez...all this "interesting" discussion of an OJ-wannabe. Kind
of as enjoyable as watching my hard disk defrag.

Daytona tomorrow. Much, much better.

LA

Residence vs. Mailing Address
 

On Feb 17, 8:27 pm, "KH6HZ" wrote:
wrote:
In this case, the
FCC could reach Jeffrey Hermann at the listed address, not Michael
Deignan.

Odd, I received all the licenses mailed to me at the Hawaii address. Thus,
clearly, the FCC reached me at that address just fine.

Please play again soon!

You could have looked them up on-line. No need to make claims of
receiving them at Hermann's PO Box.