Phil, I doubt you're kidding, but a single wire with a ground return? That
is going to have a ton of problems even *without* putting broadband on it.
My guess is if it is implemented, everyone should look up all am radio
stations that they fall in the secondary service area of (or near the limit
of the primary service area) and find one or more that the system interferes
with. Then complain to the commercial station and the FCC that you want to
hear the commercial station. The FCC tends to react to problems involving
commercial radio stations quite quickly (as some outlaw FM broadcasters have
found out). I wonder how the broadband will impact the newly developed am
stereo broadcasting? At least the commercial stations have deep pockets
(since there are only a few owners of almost all the radio and television
stations in the US nowadays).

73 from Rochester, NY
Jim AA2QA



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On Wed, 09 Jul 2003 03:02:43 GMT, Jim Hampton wrote:

Phil, I doubt you're kidding, but a single wire with a ground return? That
is going to have a ton of problems even *without* putting broadband on it.

That amazed me too - but there's only one insulator on the pole pig
and one wire crossing the street to same. Three phase primary is
three wire, so there isn't even a Wye Neutral for return.

I first saw this system along the Trans-Canada highway in Alberta in
1970 and I put it down to the rural-ness of the area. But suburban
Portland in the 21st Century?

--
73 de K2ASP - Phil Kane

Phil Kane wrote:

On Wed, 09 Jul 2003 03:02:43 GMT, Jim Hampton wrote:

Phil, I doubt you're kidding, but a single wire with a ground return? That
is going to have a ton of problems even *without* putting broadband on it.

That amazed me too - but there's only one insulator on the pole pig
and one wire crossing the street to same. Three phase primary is
three wire, so there isn't even a Wye Neutral for return.

I first saw this system along the Trans-Canada highway in Alberta in
1970 and I put it down to the rural-ness of the area. But suburban
Portland in the 21st Century?

Isn't that putting a lot of faith in the quality of the ground? I still
remember
years ago when I serviced a repeater out in the national forest that appeared to
be working normally until some remote user keyed it up while I had my VM probes
in the AC socket- the primary voltage suddenly dropped from 118 to about 50
volts.

It was instantly obvious what was wrong- the neutral return was open and the
keydown load on the AC now found the series resistance of the ground
return-actually earth now- was such that it dropped the primary voltage that
much. And the pole pig was only a few feet away.

I gotta wonder how in the world a utilitly could reliably use earth for a
return
when they have no idea what load the consumer will place on it. I've never seen
earth with resistance as low as copper! :^)

Dick

"Phil Kane" wrote in message t.net...
On Wed, 09 Jul 2003 03:02:43 GMT, Jim Hampton wrote:

Phil, I doubt you're kidding, but a single wire with a ground return? That
is going to have a ton of problems even *without* putting broadband on it.

That amazed me too - but there's only one insulator on the pole pig
and one wire crossing the street to same. Three phase primary is
three wire, so there isn't even a Wye Neutral for return.

I first saw this system along the Trans-Canada highway in Alberta in
1970 and I put it down to the rural-ness of the area. But suburban
Portland in the 21st Century?

Are there NO other wires on the pole?

Here in EPA, most residential areas have three-phase going down the
larger streets (like South Devon Ave. here in Wayne), with
single-phase feeders going to the side streets. The return is partly
through the dirt but mostly through the main messenger that carries
the 120/240 twisted wires.

Earth return will work fine, if the ground is good enough. The few
HVDC lines that have been installed can be operated that way if one
conductor fails.

73 de Jim, N2EY

"N2EY" wrote in message
om...
| "Phil Kane" wrote in message
t.net...
| On Wed, 09 Jul 2003 03:02:43 GMT, Jim Hampton wrote:
|
| Phil, I doubt you're kidding, but a single wire with a ground
return? That
| is going to have a ton of problems even *without* putting
broadband on it.
|
| That amazed me too - but there's only one insulator on the pole
pig
| and one wire crossing the street to same. Three phase primary
is
| three wire, so there isn't even a Wye Neutral for return.
|
| I first saw this system along the Trans-Canada highway in
Alberta in
| 1970 and I put it down to the rural-ness of the area. But
suburban
| Portland in the 21st Century?
|
| Are there NO other wires on the pole?
|
| Here in EPA, most residential areas have three-phase going down the
| larger streets (like South Devon Ave. here in Wayne), with
| single-phase feeders going to the side streets. The return is partly
| through the dirt but mostly through the main messenger that carries
| the 120/240 twisted wires.
|
| Earth return will work fine, if the ground is good enough. The few
| HVDC lines that have been installed can be operated that way if one
| conductor fails.
|
73 de Jim, N2EY
The problem is, in most parts of the country the ground conductivity
is VERY poor. Just ask anyone who is familiar with commercial AM
broadcast station operation. They all wouldn't bury literally MILES
of copper wire around their towers in order to get somewhat of a
ground if they didn't have to. Besides our local electric utility
had nothing but big problems with 3-phase feeder lines without a
neutral along with the hot lines. They lose transformers whenever we
have a dandy lightning storm.

As far as BPL is concerned, BIG PROBLEMS LOOM for almost all licensed
services, including amateur radio if this is allowed.

73, Sam

\"Sparky\" wrote:

"N2EY" wrote in message
om...
| "Phil Kane" wrote in message
t.net...
| On Wed, 09 Jul 2003 03:02:43 GMT, Jim Hampton wrote:
|
| Phil, I doubt you're kidding, but a single wire with a ground
return? That
| is going to have a ton of problems even *without* putting
broadband on it.
|
| That amazed me too - but there's only one insulator on the pole
pig
| and one wire crossing the street to same. Three phase primary
is
| three wire, so there isn't even a Wye Neutral for return.
|
| I first saw this system along the Trans-Canada highway in
Alberta in
| 1970 and I put it down to the rural-ness of the area. But
suburban
| Portland in the 21st Century?
|
| Are there NO other wires on the pole?
|
| Here in EPA, most residential areas have three-phase going down the
| larger streets (like South Devon Ave. here in Wayne), with
| single-phase feeders going to the side streets. The return is partly
| through the dirt but mostly through the main messenger that carries
| the 120/240 twisted wires.
|
| Earth return will work fine, if the ground is good enough. The few
| HVDC lines that have been installed can be operated that way if one
| conductor fails.
|
73 de Jim, N2EY
The problem is, in most parts of the country the ground conductivity
is VERY poor. Just ask anyone who is familiar with commercial AM
broadcast station operation. They all wouldn't bury literally MILES
of copper wire around their towers in order to get somewhat of a
ground if they didn't have to.

I still wonder about that AM tower I once passed in Santa Clara,CA that was
sitting on a salt marsh right at sea level....do they have all that wire in the
ground, er, water, too?



As far as BPL is concerned, BIG PROBLEMS LOOM for almost all licensed
services, including amateur radio if this is allowed.

That was exactly what I said in my comments to FCC on the docket:

"The use of the HF part of the spectrum as we have always known it
will be ended".

Dick

(snip)

|
| I still wonder about that AM tower I once passed in Santa Clara,CA
that was
| sitting on a salt marsh right at sea level....do they have all that
wire in the
| ground, er, water, too?


Not sure on that one. I haven't ever seen AM towers with salt marsh
surrounding it, but in that case they sure would put out a much better
signal than a tower located away on dry rocky ground with all the
buried radials.
|
| As far as BPL is concerned, BIG PROBLEMS LOOM for almost all
licensed
| services, including amateur radio if this is allowed.
|
| That was exactly what I said in my comments to FCC on the docket:
|
| "The use of the HF part of the spectrum as we have always known it
| will be ended".
|
| Dick

Well stated, Dick. I totally agree.

73, Sam

On 9 Jul 2003 11:55:18 -0700, N2EY wrote:

That amazed me too - but there's only one insulator on the pole pig
and one wire crossing the street to same. Three phase primary is
three wire, so there isn't even a Wye Neutral for return.

I first saw this system along the Trans-Canada highway in Alberta in
1970 and I put it down to the rural-ness of the area. But suburban
Portland in the 21st Century?

Are there NO other wires on the pole?

I checked it out a lot closer - there appears to be a neutral wire
running quite a distance below the primaries but above the cable and
telco stuff. It looked a lot like a messenger or guy wire, but it is
most probably serves as the neutral of a Wye primary.

Earth return will work fine, if the ground is good enough.

The rocks of western Oregon do not fall into that category.....

--
73 de K2ASP - Phil Kane

In article , "Phil Kane"
writes:

On 9 Jul 2003 11:55:18 -0700, N2EY wrote:

That amazed me too - but there's only one insulator on the pole pig
and one wire crossing the street to same. Three phase primary is
three wire, so there isn't even a Wye Neutral for return.

I first saw this system along the Trans-Canada highway in Alberta in
1970 and I put it down to the rural-ness of the area. But suburban
Portland in the 21st Century?

Are there NO other wires on the pole?

I checked it out a lot closer - there appears to be a neutral wire
running quite a distance below the primaries but above the cable and
telco stuff. It looked a lot like a messenger or guy wire, but it is
most probably serves as the neutral of a Wye primary.

That's exactly what it is. Most of the return current is in that wire.

The system you describe is in use all over the Northeast.

Earth return will work fine, if the ground is good enough.

The rocks of western Oregon do not fall into that category.....

Agreed - but the system described doesn;t use earth return.

73 de Jim, N2EY