Radioman wrote in message ...
Vippy, you've just been promoted from "Idiot" to "Complete Idiot".


Youre village called, there missing they're idiot.

Huh?

I think you meant: "Your village called; they're missing thier
idiot"...or something like that. Even spelled correctly it's had to
ascertain your intent.

Steve, K4YZ

Just even one more proof of what I mean. Attempting to control free speech
when a differing opinion occurs....
Why should they have exclusive control of the whole amateur community when
they only represent (roughly) a quarter of the population?

You keep saying I should join, but why should I?? List specific reasons,
backed by facts. Not vague generalities or "big-brother/mafioso-like"
reasons? All it is, is a very expensive magazine subscription, so let's not
kid ourselves.


--
Ryan, KC8PMX
FF1-FF2-MFR-(pending NREMT-B!)
--. --- -.. ... .- -. --. . .-.. ... .- .-. . ..-. .. .-. . ..-.
... --. .... - . .-. ...


No need to slam the ARRL. There isn't any other group available to do so.
They have the resources to evaluate the common usage of the band, develop
it
into a band plan, and then to widely disseminate the information so that
it
is useful to all. What other group can match that? Simple: None. If you
want input, join the group and work from within. Don't slam it from
without.

Dee D. Flint, N8UZE

"Ryan, KC8PMX" wrote in message
...
Just even one more proof of what I mean. Attempting to control free
speech
when a differing opinion occurs....
Why should they have exclusive control of the whole amateur community when
they only represent (roughly) a quarter of the population?

You keep saying I should join, but why should I?? List specific reasons,
backed by facts. Not vague generalities or "big-brother/mafioso-like"
reasons? All it is, is a very expensive magazine subscription, so let's
not
kid ourselves.


They are not trying to control free speech. Show your proof that they are
doing so. They establish policies based on the input of their membership as
does any other organization. They then carry through on that policy.
Naturally not every member agrees with it but if we had to have a unanimous
consensus nothing would ever get done. And they have no reason or
obligation to pay any attention to the opinions of non-members.

They do not have nor try to have exclusive control of the whole amateur
community. Show your proof that they do. They establish goals based on
what their membership wants. That is what any organization does. Again
they have no reason or obligation to establish their goals based on the
opinions of non-members.

You seem to expect them to roll over and adopt YOUR opinion. That's
unrealistic. Whether you join or not is your business of course. But
unless you are a member, you have no right to expect to control their
policies or for them to listen to your opinions and adopt your opinions. If
you want to change them, join. If you aren't willing to join, don't expect
to change them. That's pretty simple.

I know why I am a member. They can do things that I cannot.
1) Take the current BPL situation. They have the finances and facilities
to do the research that I can't afford. That is but one of many things.
2) Product tests/reviews. I can't afford to buy all the test equipment,
every new radio, antenna, etc and run my own comparisons.
.... and so on.


Dee D. Flint, N8UZE

"Dee D. Flint" wrote in message
gy.com...

"Ryan, KC8PMX" wrote in message
...
Just even one more proof of what I mean. Attempting to control free
speech
when a differing opinion occurs....
Why should they have exclusive control of the whole amateur community
when
they only represent (roughly) a quarter of the population?

You keep saying I should join, but why should I?? List specific
reasons,
backed by facts. Not vague generalities or "big-brother/mafioso-like"
reasons? All it is, is a very expensive magazine subscription, so let's
not
kid ourselves.


They are not trying to control free speech. Show your proof that they are
doing so. They establish policies based on the input of their membership
as
does any other organization. They then carry through on that policy.
Naturally not every member agrees with it but if we had to have a
unanimous
consensus nothing would ever get done. And they have no reason or
obligation to pay any attention to the opinions of non-members.

They do not have nor try to have exclusive control of the whole amateur
community. Show your proof that they do. They establish goals based on
what their membership wants. That is what any organization does. Again
they have no reason or obligation to establish their goals based on the
opinions of non-members.

You seem to expect them to roll over and adopt YOUR opinion. That's
unrealistic. Whether you join or not is your business of course. But
unless you are a member, you have no right to expect to control their
policies or for them to listen to your opinions and adopt your opinions.
If
you want to change them, join. If you aren't willing to join, don't
expect
to change them. That's pretty simple.

I know why I am a member. They can do things that I cannot.
1) Take the current BPL situation. They have the finances and facilities
to do the research that I can't afford. That is but one of many things.
2) Product tests/reviews. I can't afford to buy all the test equipment,
every new radio, antenna, etc and run my own comparisons.
... and so on.

Dee D. Flint, N8UZE

Dee,

Well said!

For all those that complain about ARRL, no one has effectively
started an alternative in all these years. I see ARRL as the best
bang for my buck on most matters of amateur issues. I departed from
ARRL position on the code issue and have been a director of
NCI because of that ONE issue. The point is, that NCI, while
a separate org from ARRL, is not trying to replace ARRL's
role in amateur issues EXCEPT on the code/nocode test issue...
and of late, there's less disparity there then 5 years ago.

Cheers,
Bill K2UNK

"Dee D. Flint" wrote in message
gy.com...

"Ryan, KC8PMX" wrote in message
...
Just even one more proof of what I mean. Attempting to control free
speech
when a differing opinion occurs....
Why should they have exclusive control of the whole amateur community
when
they only represent (roughly) a quarter of the population?

You keep saying I should join, but why should I?? List specific
reasons,
backed by facts. Not vague generalities or "big-brother/mafioso-like"
reasons? All it is, is a very expensive magazine subscription, so let's
not
kid ourselves.


They are not trying to control free speech. Show your proof that they are
doing so.

They are by virtue of a member attempting to do so. Either a member is or
is not a representative of the arrl.

They establish policies based on the input of their membership as
does any other organization. They then carry through on that policy.
Naturally not every member agrees with it but if we had to have a
unanimous
consensus nothing would ever get done. And they have no reason or
obligation to pay any attention to the opinions of non-members.

As well as they should not be representing "non-members" either. The ARRL
is responsible for the state of amateur radio it is today, as they have
convinced the FCC that they are the "only voice."


They do not have nor try to have exclusive control of the whole amateur
community. Show your proof that they do.

Let me dig up a QST magazine.... said it right on the front cover.....


They establish goals based on
what their membership wants. That is what any organization does. Again
they have no reason or obligation to establish their goals based on the
opinions of non-members.

Only if one chooses to request that information beased upon the decision
whether or not to join. Its like going to a car dealership and the car
salesperson stating that you will be buying a vehicle, but not tell you
anything about it.



You seem to expect them to roll over and adopt YOUR opinion. That's
unrealistic. Whether you join or not is your business of course. But
unless you are a member, you have no right to expect to control their
policies or for them to listen to your opinions and adopt your opinions.
If
you want to change them, join. If you aren't willing to join, don't
expect
to change them. That's pretty simple.

Never did I state they should roll over to my opinions exclusively, but my
opinions are not singular, there are many more that hold the same position
on a variety of issues. If they are claiming control of amateur radio as a
whole, not just the membership, then my opinion should count in that
respect. I can tell you however, there are alot of the opinions I hold that
are held by a ton of people with ham licenses.



I know why I am a member. They can do things that I cannot.
1) Take the current BPL situation. They have the finances and facilities
to do the research that I can't afford. That is but one of many things.

Yeah.... they must be the only one's too eh?

2) Product tests/reviews. I can't afford to buy all the test equipment,
every new radio, antenna, etc and run my own comparisons.
... and so on.

Again, CQ magazine does that as well. Granted, I will wholeheartedly admit
that QST is a decent magazine, even though it is getting thinner and
thinner, but it is a good magazine. My only observation is that it should
also include some technical material for the newer hams, as not all of us
are Extra class electrical/electronics engineers. Although I am above the
"simple circuit" stage, I am however not the highest qualified in the
electronics side of this hobby. I am man enough to admit I need to learn
more.

Again, You keep saying I should join, but why should I?? List specific
reasons, backed by facts. Not vague generalities or
"big-brother/mafioso-like" reasons? All it is, is a very expensive magazine
subscription, so let's
not kid ourselves. If there are some actual reasons listed, I might
consider joining. If not, then that sums it up pretty good.

I can honestly say that you are one of the few people that I have met on
here, and I like you as a person. But there is one thing as a fact I know
for sure, we will never agree on is the ARRL. I do not take the ARRL as
blind faith, or like a religion. I do not put the ARRL in a position close
to god as some put here and elsewhere. I do not consider the arrl like a
religion or a church organization as some people equate it to. I will be
one of the first people to join if there ever becomes a group like the
United States Amateur Radio Association or the National Radio Relay League
or any other similar group. (don't know if either of those exist.....) The
arrl needs the competition to keep them in check. Hell, Republicrats claim
competition is a GOOD thing. (except when it encroaches on "their"
businesses.)


Have a great Labor Day Weekend!

--
Ryan, KC8PMX
FF1-FF2-MFR-(pending NREMT-B!)
--. --- -.. ... .- -. --. . .-.. ... .- .-. . ..-. .. .-. . ..-.
... --. .... - . .-. ...

"Bill Sohl" wrote in message
.net...

"Dee D. Flint" wrote in message
gy.com...

"Ryan, KC8PMX" wrote in message
...
Just even one more proof of what I mean. Attempting to control free
speech
when a differing opinion occurs....
Why should they have exclusive control of the whole amateur community
when
they only represent (roughly) a quarter of the population?

You keep saying I should join, but why should I?? List specific
reasons,
backed by facts. Not vague generalities or "big-brother/mafioso-like"
reasons? All it is, is a very expensive magazine subscription, so
let's
not
kid ourselves.


They are not trying to control free speech. Show your proof that they
are
doing so. They establish policies based on the input of their
membership
as
does any other organization. They then carry through on that policy.
Naturally not every member agrees with it but if we had to have a
unanimous
consensus nothing would ever get done. And they have no reason or
obligation to pay any attention to the opinions of non-members.

They do not have nor try to have exclusive control of the whole amateur
community. Show your proof that they do. They establish goals based on
what their membership wants. That is what any organization does. Again
they have no reason or obligation to establish their goals based on the
opinions of non-members.

You seem to expect them to roll over and adopt YOUR opinion. That's
unrealistic. Whether you join or not is your business of course. But
unless you are a member, you have no right to expect to control their
policies or for them to listen to your opinions and adopt your opinions.
If
you want to change them, join. If you aren't willing to join, don't
expect
to change them. That's pretty simple.

I know why I am a member. They can do things that I cannot.
1) Take the current BPL situation. They have the finances and
facilities
to do the research that I can't afford. That is but one of many things.
2) Product tests/reviews. I can't afford to buy all the test
equipment,
every new radio, antenna, etc and run my own comparisons.
... and so on.

Dee D. Flint, N8UZE

Dee,

Well said!

For all those that complain about ARRL, no one has effectively
started an alternative in all these years. I see ARRL as the best
bang for my buck on most matters of amateur issues. I departed from
ARRL position on the code issue and have been a director of
NCI because of that ONE issue. The point is, that NCI, while
a separate org from ARRL, is not trying to replace ARRL's
role in amateur issues EXCEPT on the code/nocode test issue...
and of late, there's less disparity there then 5 years ago.

Cheers,
Bill K2UNK

Although I do not agree with you on the code issue, I do commend you for
going out and DOING something rather than sitting back and whining as so
many are prone to do. Not only did you join an organization that supported
your point of view but you obviously became actively involved since you are
one of the directors. I would suspect, however, that you are still a member
of the ARRL even though you disagreed on one issue. i.e. You did not expect
the ARRL to be a single issue organization.

Dee D. Flint, N8UZE

Bill Sohl wrote:


Dee,

Well said!

For all those that complain about ARRL, no one has effectively
started an alternative in all these years.

Fox News?

- Mike KB3EIA -

In article , "Ryan, KC8PMX"
writes:

"Dee D. Flint" wrote in message
igy.com...

"Ryan, KC8PMX" wrote in message
...
Just even one more proof of what I mean. Attempting to control free
speech
when a differing opinion occurs....
Why should they have exclusive control of the whole amateur community
when
they only represent (roughly) a quarter of the population?

You keep saying I should join, but why should I?? List specific
reasons,
backed by facts. Not vague generalities or "big-brother/mafioso-like"
reasons? All it is, is a very expensive magazine subscription, so let's
not
kid ourselves.


They are not trying to control free speech. Show your proof that they are
doing so.

They are by virtue of a member attempting to do so. Either a member is or
is not a representative of the arrl.

I'm not sure what you're saying, Ryan.

I don't agree with all ARRL policies, but I don't see ARRL trying to control my
free speech. Sure, it would be great if all members agreed on all issues but
that's simply not going to happen unless there's a mechanism like NCI has to
eliminate those who disagree.

Yes, ARRL says they represent their membership - just like your congresscritter
says he preresents his/her constituents. Does your congressperson agree with
you on every single issue?

They establish policies based on the input of their membership as
does any other organization. They then carry through on that policy.
Naturally not every member agrees with it but if we had to have a
unanimous
consensus nothing would ever get done. And they have no reason or
obligation to pay any attention to the opinions of non-members.

As well as they should not be representing "non-members" either.

Yet nonmembers get the benefit of ARRL actions.

The ARRL
is responsible for the state of amateur radio it is today, as they have
convinced the FCC that they are the "only voice."

Where do you get that idea? Read the Report and Order for the 2000
restructuring - FCC addresses many groups and individuals' positions, not just
ARRL's.


They do not have nor try to have exclusive control of the whole amateur
community. Show your proof that they do.

Let me dig up a QST magazine.... said it right on the front cover.....

What does it say?

They establish goals based on
what their membership wants. That is what any organization does. Again
they have no reason or obligation to establish their goals based on the
opinions of non-members.

Only if one chooses to request that information beased upon the decision
whether or not to join. Its like going to a car dealership and the car
salesperson stating that you will be buying a vehicle, but not tell you
anything about it.

Not at all. You can ask Hq for their policy. You can email your director. I
betcha if you emailed your director and asked his/her view on some issue, and
mentioned you were considering joining, you'd get an answer.

On the codetest issue, ARRL has been procodetest for a long time because that
has been the position of the majority of the membership. Maybe that's changed,
maybe it hasn't, but would you expect ARRL to go with the minority position?

You seem to expect them to roll over and adopt YOUR opinion. That's
unrealistic. Whether you join or not is your business of course. But
unless you are a member, you have no right to expect to control their
policies or for them to listen to your opinions and adopt your opinions.
If
you want to change them, join. If you aren't willing to join, don't
expect
to change them. That's pretty simple.

Never did I state they should roll over to my opinions exclusively, but my
opinions are not singular, there are many more that hold the same position
on a variety of issues. If they are claiming control of amateur radio as a
whole, not just the membership, then my opinion should count in that
respect. I can tell you however, there are alot of the opinions I hold that
are held by a ton of people with ham licenses.

Sure. And there are a ton of people who hold different opinions. That's the
nature of the game.

I know why I am a member. They can do things that I cannot.
1) Take the current BPL situation. They have the finances and facilities
to do the research that I can't afford. That is but one of many things.

Yeah.... they must be the only one's too eh?

Who else is doing what W1RFI & Co. did? A 121 page engineering analysis of the
impact of BPL on typical amateur stations, including measurements and
observations of actual installations, put together on short notice. Betcha Ed
wasn't working 40 hour weeks to put that baby together.

And if ya think BPL is an HF-only problem, note that it goes as high as 80 MHz
on fundamentals, and that outfits like Cingular are concerned about
interference from harmonics messing up their 800+ MHz services.

2) Product tests/reviews. I can't afford to buy all the test equipment,
every new radio, antenna, etc and run my own comparisons.
... and so on.

Again, CQ magazine does that as well.

Not the way ARRL does it. I've been to the ARRL lab, inside the screen room,
talked to the folks who do the testing. They buy actual production units
through regular channels and beat the #$%^& out of them in the lab. The
Extended Report (available to members only) goes even farther than the mag
report.

Does CQ even have a lab?

Granted, I will wholeheartedly admit
that QST is a decent magazine, even though it is getting thinner and
thinner, but it is a good magazine.

I've got every QST from the late 1920s to today, and they are getting fatter.

My only observation is that it should
also include some technical material for the newer hams, as not all of us
are Extra class electrical/electronics engineers. Although I am above the
"simple circuit" stage, I am however not the highest qualified in the
electronics side of this hobby. I am man enough to admit I need to learn
more.

The point of QST is the new and novel. The Handbook and other publications are
for the standard practices. There's also QEX.

Again, You keep saying I should join, but why should I?? List specific
reasons, backed by facts. Not vague generalities or
"big-brother/mafioso-like" reasons?

OK, here ya go:

1) Like it or not, ARRL is the only general-purpose membership org we hams have
in the USA. No other group is going to step up to the plate on issues like BPL,
CC&Rs, PRB-1, product testing, etc. You may not see those issues as affecting
you, but in the long run they affect all of us.

Heck, I remember a time when major manufacturers would put out ham gear with
known shortcomings because they knew nobody would really put the stuff to a
real test. Not any more!

2) One of the things that has kept ham radio going all these years is the
presence of strong national societies. The FCC and ITU have no vested interest
in keeping amateur radio alive and healthy. ARRL does.

All it is, is a very expensive magazine
subscription, so let's
not kid ourselves.

How much is it - $39 a year, single year? How much is CQ or any other mag? How
much are most small-circulation non-industry publications?

If there are some actual reasons listed, I might
consider joining. If not, then that sums it up pretty good.

I can honestly say that you are one of the few people that I have met on
here, and I like you as a person. But there is one thing as a fact I know
for sure, we will never agree on is the ARRL. I do not take the ARRL as
blind faith, or like a religion.

Nor do I. Some of their positions are downright bizarre.

I do not put the ARRL in a position close
to god as some put here and elsewhere. I do not consider the arrl like a
religion or a church organization as some people equate it to. I will be
one of the first people to join if there ever becomes a group like the
United States Amateur Radio Association or the National Radio Relay League
or any other similar group. (don't know if either of those exist.....)

Over the years there have been groups which tried to be an ARRL alternative.
None ever got more than a few thousand members, and all quietly disappeared
after a few years, usually because they could not achieve critical mass.

Heck, how big is NCI - 4000 members, worldwide, with a mandate to disappear
when code testing does? How about NCVEC - can anyone join and elect policy
makers?

The
arrl needs the competition to keep them in check. Hell, Republicrats claim
competition is a GOOD thing. (except when it encroaches on "their"
businesses.)

Right - and so we have the airline industry tottering on the verge of
bankruptcy even with megabuck bailouts, the telecom industry bubble, the Enron
mess, the Northeast blackout....

73 de Jim, N2EY
Have a great Labor Day Weekend!

"Mike Coslo" wrote in message
...


Ryan, KC8PMX wrote:
Just even one more proof of what I mean. Attempting to control free
speech
when a differing opinion occurs....
Why should they have exclusive control of the whole amateur community
when
they only represent (roughly) a quarter of the population?


Gee, Ryan. If I make a post with my opinion, and you make a post with a
different opinion, is that an attempt to control free speech on your part?

Only if the "you shouldn't say that" is the theme of the message. If it is
handled like a debate that is a bit different.....


Which begs some questions:

What do those people on this list who believe that a person who
disagrees with them is trying to deny them their civil rights want? Do
you just want to post with only replies that agree with you? Do you
want to extend the same to the other persons posts? Are you trying to
control them when you post a message disagreeing with their post?


I guess it would depend on how it is handled.....


--
Ryan, KC8PMX
FF1-FF2-MFR-(pending NREMT-B!)
--. --- -.. ... .- -. --. . .-.. ... .- .-. . ..-. .. .-. . ..-.
... --. .... - . .-. ...

"N2EY" wrote in message
...
In article , "Ryan, KC8PMX"
writes:

"Dee D. Flint" wrote in message
igy.com...

"Ryan, KC8PMX" wrote in message
...
Just even one more proof of what I mean. Attempting to control free
speech
when a differing opinion occurs....
Why should they have exclusive control of the whole amateur community
when
they only represent (roughly) a quarter of the population?

You keep saying I should join, but why should I?? List specific
reasons,
backed by facts. Not vague generalities or
"big-brother/mafioso-like"
reasons? All it is, is a very expensive magazine subscription, so
let's
not
kid ourselves.


They are not trying to control free speech. Show your proof that they
are
doing so.

They are by virtue of a member attempting to do so. Either a member is
or
is not a representative of the arrl.

I'm not sure what you're saying, Ryan.

I don't agree with all ARRL policies, but I don't see ARRL trying to
control my
free speech. Sure, it would be great if all members agreed on all issues
but
that's simply not going to happen unless there's a mechanism like NCI has
to
eliminate those who disagree.

Yes, ARRL says they represent their membership - just like your
congresscritter
says he preresents his/her constituents. Does your congressperson agree
with
you on every single issue?

They establish policies based on the input of their membership as
does any other organization. They then carry through on that policy.
Naturally not every member agrees with it but if we had to have a
unanimous
consensus nothing would ever get done. And they have no reason or
obligation to pay any attention to the opinions of non-members.

As well as they should not be representing "non-members" either.

Yet nonmembers get the benefit of ARRL actions.


Such as, maybe you will specify, others haven't.



The ARRL
is responsible for the state of amateur radio it is today, as they have
convinced the FCC that they are the "only voice."

Where do you get that idea? Read the Report and Order for the 2000
restructuring - FCC addresses many groups and individuals' positions, not
just
ARRL's.

They do not have nor try to have exclusive control of the whole amateur
community. Show your proof that they do.

Let me dig up a QST magazine.... said it right on the front cover.....

What does it say?

Am not at home while typing this, but will look at one soon as I get ahold
of one.


They establish goals based on
what their membership wants. That is what any organization does.
Again
they have no reason or obligation to establish their goals based on the
opinions of non-members.

Only if one chooses to request that information beased upon the decision
whether or not to join. Its like going to a car dealership and the car
salesperson stating that you will be buying a vehicle, but not tell you
anything about it.

Not at all. You can ask Hq for their policy. You can email your director.
I
betcha if you emailed your director and asked his/her view on some issue,
and
mentioned you were considering joining, you'd get an answer.

On the codetest issue, ARRL has been procodetest for a long time because
that
has been the position of the majority of the membership. Maybe that's
changed,
maybe it hasn't, but would you expect ARRL to go with the minority
position?

The procode test is a minority position? I am in favor for retention of it.
Just because I personally do not like it, nor find it useful does not mean I
wish it to go away.


You seem to expect them to roll over and adopt YOUR opinion. That's
unrealistic. Whether you join or not is your business of course. But
unless you are a member, you have no right to expect to control their
policies or for them to listen to your opinions and adopt your
opinions.
If
you want to change them, join. If you aren't willing to join, don't
expect
to change them. That's pretty simple.

Never did I state they should roll over to my opinions exclusively, but
my
opinions are not singular, there are many more that hold the same
position
on a variety of issues. If they are claiming control of amateur radio as
a
whole, not just the membership, then my opinion should count in that
respect. I can tell you however, there are alot of the opinions I hold
that
are held by a ton of people with ham licenses.

Sure. And there are a ton of people who hold different opinions. That's
the
nature of the game.


Yeah, but I bet the overwhelming majority wish things would roll back to
where it was at least 15-20 years ago, and that is where I think it should
return to after seeing how things are after being licensed (not including
all participation, just licensure) for 3 years, I think it should be as
well. I am sick and tired of people that start (I mean locally at least)
saying something, or attempting to get a project going, but hold off as to
"check with the ARRL" for "approval." Think for yourself I say. Only rules
I will follow are the FCC's rules.

I know why I am a member. They can do things that I cannot.
1) Take the current BPL situation. They have the finances and
facilities
to do the research that I can't afford. That is but one of many
things.

Yeah.... they must be the only one's too eh?

Who else is doing what W1RFI & Co. did? A 121 page engineering analysis of
the
impact of BPL on typical amateur stations, including measurements and
observations of actual installations, put together on short notice. Betcha
Ed
wasn't working 40 hour weeks to put that baby together.

And if ya think BPL is an HF-only problem, note that it goes as high as 80
MHz
on fundamentals, and that outfits like Cingular are concerned about
interference from harmonics messing up their 800+ MHz services.

I haven't taken a side one way or another in this whole BPL issue as I am
the first to say that I do not have much knowledge nor had the opportunity
to review the whole situation, but I would find it hard to believe that the
arrl is the only one that has a lab in this big country of ours..... That
was the intention to that particular response....



2) Product tests/reviews. I can't afford to buy all the test
equipment,
every new radio, antenna, etc and run my own comparisons.
... and so on.

Again, CQ magazine does that as well.

Not the way ARRL does it. I've been to the ARRL lab, inside the screen
room,
talked to the folks who do the testing. They buy actual production units
through regular channels and beat the #$%^& out of them in the lab. The
Extended Report (available to members only) goes even farther than the mag
report.

Does CQ even have a lab?

Don't know as I have never been to their facilities but the information that
they give as well as other publishers is enough for me to either become more
interested and research further or to turn away from the product.


Granted, I will wholeheartedly admit
that QST is a decent magazine, even though it is getting thinner and
thinner, but it is a good magazine.

I've got every QST from the late 1920s to today, and they are getting
fatter.

I have the past 20 years or so, and since they have been with the 8.5x11"
size format, they have been getting thinner. I have not picked up the past
6-7 months though, as there now is no place to purchase it locally. The
closest location that carries it is Flint, which is about 75 miles away.


My only observation is that it should
also include some technical material for the newer hams, as not all of us
are Extra class electrical/electronics engineers. Although I am above
the
"simple circuit" stage, I am however not the highest qualified in the
electronics side of this hobby. I am man enough to admit I need to learn
more.

The point of QST is the new and novel. The Handbook and other publications
are
for the standard practices. There's also QEX.

I still think that it would be helpful to alot if there was something for
the beginners as well as the expert electronics buffs.


Again, You keep saying I should join, but why should I?? List specific
reasons, backed by facts. Not vague generalities or
"big-brother/mafioso-like" reasons?

OK, here ya go:

1) Like it or not, ARRL is the only general-purpose membership org we hams
have
in the USA. No other group is going to step up to the plate on issues like
BPL,
CC&Rs, PRB-1, product testing, etc. You may not see those issues as
affecting
you, but in the long run they affect all of us.

Okay... I point well taken for the time being, but I do feel the same way as
Cecil W5DXP does about the whole CC&R issue.


Heck, I remember a time when major manufacturers would put out ham gear
with
known shortcomings because they knew nobody would really put the stuff to
a
real test. Not any more!


Let me try it in my truck; if it breaks, fix that part better!

2) One of the things that has kept ham radio going all these years is the
presence of strong national societies. The FCC and ITU have no vested
interest
in keeping amateur radio alive and healthy. ARRL does.

All it is, is a very expensive magazine
subscription, so let's
not kid ourselves.

How much is it - $39 a year, single year? How much is CQ or any other mag?
How
much are most small-circulation non-industry publications?

Right now, I think it is either 2.95-4.95 per month per mag. (QST and CQ
when I can find them) That is what my budget allows for the two magazines
at this time. Until financial circumstances get better, 40 bucks at once
out of the "entertainment" part of my budget, as that is where it would fall
categorically, it too much of a hit at once.



If there are some actual reasons listed, I might
consider joining. If not, then that sums it up pretty good.

I can honestly say that you are one of the few people that I have met on
here, and I like you as a person. But there is one thing as a fact I
know
for sure, we will never agree on is the ARRL. I do not take the ARRL as
blind faith, or like a religion.

Nor do I. Some of their positions are downright bizarre.

I do not put the ARRL in a position close
to god as some put here and elsewhere. I do not consider the arrl like a
religion or a church organization as some people equate it to. I will
be
one of the first people to join if there ever becomes a group like the
United States Amateur Radio Association or the National Radio Relay
League
or any other similar group. (don't know if either of those exist.....)

Over the years there have been groups which tried to be an ARRL
alternative.
None ever got more than a few thousand members, and all quietly
disappeared
after a few years, usually because they could not achieve critical mass.

Heck, how big is NCI - 4000 members, worldwide, with a mandate to
disappear
when code testing does? How about NCVEC - can anyone join and elect policy
makers?

Don't know as I do not support NCI nor care to know anything about it,
except it is a single issue group; the morse code issue.


The
arrl needs the competition to keep them in check. Hell, Republicrats
claim
competition is a GOOD thing. (except when it encroaches on "their"
businesses.)

Right - and so we have the airline industry tottering on the verge of
bankruptcy even with megabuck bailouts, the telecom industry bubble, the
Enron
mess, the Northeast blackout....

Hmmm.... Republicans helping Republicans I see!




--
Ryan, KC8PMX
FF1-FF2-MFR-(pending NREMT-B!)
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