On 6 Sep 2003 07:23:43 -0700, (Brian) wrote:

S. Hanrahan wrote in message . ..
On Thu, 04 Sep 2003 10:00:13 -0400, Bob Brock
wrote:


Why would you want to foil computer copy?

Because no law says you can't.

For you to do the test to
make sure that it works and then advocate it's use, you can't really
say that wasn't your intention.

What if it was? Nothing you can do about it but learn the code.

Oh, geez. Here's another Morse Elitist that apparently advocates
sending code so **** poorly that it can't be computer copied. Hoo-ah!

At 5 WPM, you don't need a computer to copy good or poor code.

"S. Hanrahan" wrote in message
...
On 6 Sep 2003 07:23:43 -0700, (Brian) wrote:
Oh, geez. Here's another Morse Elitist that apparently advocates
sending code so **** poorly that it can't be computer copied. Hoo-ah!

At 5 WPM, you don't need a computer to copy good or poor code.

I think you've just hit the nail on the head. It's really not how hard or
easy 5-wpm is, it's the willingness (or lack thereof) to make the initial
(i.e. "initiative") effort to learn the 43 required characters.

I came into the fray relatively unbiased re. the code vs. no-code debate.
However, once you hear some of the arguments presented, it's hard not to see
it for what it really is.

73 de Bert
WA2SI

On Wed, 05 Nov 2003 12:35:58 GMT, "Bert Craig"
wrote:

"S. Hanrahan" wrote in message
..
At 5 WPM, you don't need a computer to copy good or poor code.

I think you've just hit the nail on the head. It's really not how hard or
easy 5-wpm is, it's the willingness (or lack thereof) to make the initial
(i.e. "initiative") effort to learn the 43 required characters.

Exactly. I look at it this way, if a person doesn't want to learn the
code, fine, if they want to fine, just don't come up to me and bitch
and moan that 5 WPM is a hurdle or mountain too high to climb.

I'm hearing impaired in both ears, and I can copy 45-50 WPM in my head
solidly, and attained the 20 before taking my General class written,
without waivers.

As I said, I can copy 45-50 WPM solidly. 99.9% of my casual CW
contacts are no faster than 18 WPM or adjusted accordingly if I'm
responding to someones else's CQ.

Stacey/AA7YA

S. Hanrahan wrote in
:

On Wed, 05 Nov 2003 12:35:58 GMT, "Bert Craig"
wrote:

"S. Hanrahan" wrote in message
. .
At 5 WPM, you don't need a computer to copy good or poor code.

I think you've just hit the nail on the head. It's really not how hard
or
easy 5-wpm is, it's the willingness (or lack thereof) to make the
initial
(i.e. "initiative") effort to learn the 43 required characters.

Exactly. I look at it this way, if a person doesn't want to learn the
code, fine, if they want to fine, just don't come up to me and bitch
and moan that 5 WPM is a hurdle or mountain too high to climb.

I'm hearing impaired in both ears, and I can copy 45-50 WPM in my head
solidly, and attained the 20 before taking my General class written,
without waivers.

As I said, I can copy 45-50 WPM solidly. 99.9% of my casual CW
contacts are no faster than 18 WPM or adjusted accordingly if I'm
responding to someones else's CQ.

Stacey/AA7YA


5 wpm is easy. I admit that. However, as you can copy 45-50 wpm, you are
so far to the other extreme end of the bell curve that I don't beleive you
really know that yourself. It would be like Michelle Kwan wondering how
beginners can fall over on the ice.

More to the point, a 5wpm test is slow enough to be pointless, as someone
who passes it doesn't really have much of a useful skill level. At 13 wpm
it was a significant hurdle, but at 5 it's merely a waste of time. Either
way, it still has no relevance to the use of a microphone.It's like
learning to ice skate to take part in a bicycle race.

Alun Palmer wrote in message . ..
S. Hanrahan wrote in
:

On Wed, 05 Nov 2003 12:35:58 GMT, "Bert Craig"
wrote:

"S. Hanrahan" wrote in message
. .
At 5 WPM, you don't need a computer to copy good or poor code.

I think you've just hit the nail on the head. It's really not how hard
or
easy 5-wpm is, it's the willingness (or lack thereof) to make the
initial
(i.e. "initiative") effort to learn the 43 required characters.

Exactly. I look at it this way, if a person doesn't want to learn the
code, fine, if they want to fine, just don't come up to me and bitch
and moan that 5 WPM is a hurdle or mountain too high to climb.

I'm hearing impaired in both ears, and I can copy 45-50 WPM in my head
solidly, and attained the 20 before taking my General class written,
without waivers.

As I said, I can copy 45-50 WPM solidly. 99.9% of my casual CW
contacts are no faster than 18 WPM or adjusted accordingly if I'm
responding to someones else's CQ.

Stacey/AA7YA


5 wpm is easy. I admit that. However, as you can copy 45-50 wpm, you are
so far to the other extreme end of the bell curve that I don't beleive you
really know that yourself.

Well, then here's the voice of the other extreme.

It would be like Michelle Kwan wondering how
beginners can fall over on the ice.

I more liken it to requiring the beginner to learn the basics before
they can skate in the same rink with Michelle Kwan.

More to the point, a 5wpm test is slow enough to be pointless, as someone
who passes it doesn't really have much of a useful skill level.

The value is not so much in one's instant proficiency, it's in the
exposure level sufficient to allow said newbie to make a truly
educated decision as to whether or not s/he wishes to pursue CW any
further. There is also the intangible feeling of accomplishment that
comes with "earning" privileges by meeting a significant challenge. I
truly don't consider a 35 or 50 question multiple choice test out of
published Q&A pools of approx. six to eight hundred questions, much of
a "challenge."

At 13 wpm
it was a significant hurdle, but at 5 it's merely a waste of time.

The more "challenging" the hurdle, the more "privileges earned." Most
licenses aren't "rights," they're "privileges." That includes AR.

Either
way, it still has no relevance to the use of a microphone.

I don't want to reduce it to just that. There's a bigger picture.
(Read: more rounded.)

It's like
learning to ice skate to take part in a bicycle race.

No, it's like learning the basics of cycling before being allowed to
participate in the race. Most people take issue with the "being
allowed to" part and try to give all sorts of lame reasons why they
shouldn't be made to "jump through hoops" and hurdle "barriers." Like
I said, when you peel away the layers of the onion...theres no
substance at the core. And that's the sacrifice some are willing to
accept for an "easier" ARS.

73 de Bert
WA2SI

"Bert Craig" wrote in message
m...
Alun Palmer wrote in message
. ..
S. Hanrahan wrote in
:

On Wed, 05 Nov 2003 12:35:58 GMT, "Bert Craig"
wrote:

"S. Hanrahan" wrote in message
. .
At 5 WPM, you don't need a computer to copy good or poor code.

I think you've just hit the nail on the head. It's really not how hard
or
easy 5-wpm is, it's the willingness (or lack thereof) to make the
initial
(i.e. "initiative") effort to learn the 43 required characters.

Exactly. I look at it this way, if a person doesn't want to learn the
code, fine, if they want to fine, just don't come up to me and bitch
and moan that 5 WPM is a hurdle or mountain too high to climb.

I'm hearing impaired in both ears, and I can copy 45-50 WPM in my head
solidly, and attained the 20 before taking my General class written,
without waivers.

As I said, I can copy 45-50 WPM solidly. 99.9% of my casual CW
contacts are no faster than 18 WPM or adjusted accordingly if I'm
responding to someones else's CQ.

Stacey/AA7YA


5 wpm is easy. I admit that. However, as you can copy 45-50 wpm, you are
so far to the other extreme end of the bell curve that I don't beleive
you
really know that yourself.

Well, then here's the voice of the other extreme.

It would be like Michelle Kwan wondering how
beginners can fall over on the ice.

I more liken it to requiring the beginner to learn the basics before
they can skate in the same rink with Michelle Kwan.

More to the point, a 5wpm test is slow enough to be pointless, as
someone
who passes it doesn't really have much of a useful skill level.

The value is not so much in one's instant proficiency, it's in the
exposure level sufficient to allow said newbie to make a truly
educated decision as to whether or not s/he wishes to pursue CW any
further. There is also the intangible feeling of accomplishment that
comes with "earning" privileges by meeting a significant challenge. I
truly don't consider a 35 or 50 question multiple choice test out of
published Q&A pools of approx. six to eight hundred questions, much of
a "challenge."

At 13 wpm
it was a significant hurdle, but at 5 it's merely a waste of time.

The more "challenging" the hurdle, the more "privileges earned." Most
licenses aren't "rights," they're "privileges." That includes AR.

Either
way, it still has no relevance to the use of a microphone.

I don't want to reduce it to just that. There's a bigger picture.
(Read: more rounded.)

It's like
learning to ice skate to take part in a bicycle race.

No, it's like learning the basics of cycling before being allowed to
participate in the race. Most people take issue with the "being
allowed to" part and try to give all sorts of lame reasons why they
shouldn't be made to "jump through hoops" and hurdle "barriers." Like
I said, when you peel away the layers of the onion...theres no
substance at the core. And that's the sacrifice some are willing to
accept for an "easier" ARS.

73 de Bert
WA2SI

Dang Bert....I've never hear it put so well. Thanks for illuminating the
playing field.

Dan/W4NTI

"Bert Craig" wrote

No, it's like learning the basics of cycling before being allowed to
participate in the race.

Did your Dad & Mom make you take a test before they bought you your first
bike?

But actually, Morse code is a bit like learning to ride a bike.... it's
sort of "self testing"..... if you want to use it, you'll learn how.

73, de Hans, K0HB
--
"Beware of the man who works hard to learn something, learns it,
and finds himself no wiser than before. He is full of murderous
resentment of people who are ignorant without having come by
their ignorance the hard way." --Bokonon

"KØHB" wrote in message
hlink.net...
"Bert Craig" wrote

No, it's like learning the basics of cycling before being allowed to
participate in the race.

Did your Dad & Mom make you take a test before they bought you your first
bike?

Nope, only before I actually used it. It involved training wheels, lots of
patience, and constant evaluation...even more so when I "earned the
privilege" of being allowed to ride in the street. Good analogy, Hans.
Thanks.

But actually, Morse code is a bit like learning to ride a bike.... it's
sort of "self testing"..... if you want to use it, you'll learn how.

I hope the "once you learn it, you never forget it" axiom holds true.

73, de Hans, K0HB
--
"Beware of the man who works hard to learn something, learns it,
and finds himself no wiser than before. He is full of murderous
resentment of people who are ignorant without having come by
their ignorance the hard way." --Bokonon

Is this referring to the 5-wpm test? I don't think so. "Murderous
resentment?" ggg

73 de Bert
WA2SI

S. Hanrahan wrote:
On Wed, 05 Nov 2003 12:35:58 GMT, "Bert Craig"
wrote:


"S. Hanrahan" wrote in message
. .

At 5 WPM, you don't need a computer to copy good or poor code.

I think you've just hit the nail on the head. It's really not how hard or
easy 5-wpm is, it's the willingness (or lack thereof) to make the initial
(i.e. "initiative") effort to learn the 43 required characters.


Exactly. I look at it this way, if a person doesn't want to learn the
code, fine, if they want to fine, just don't come up to me and bitch
and moan that 5 WPM is a hurdle or mountain too high to climb.

I'm hearing impaired in both ears, and I can copy 45-50 WPM in my head
solidly, and attained the 20 before taking my General class written,
without waivers.

Now you have my attention, Stacey! What is the nature of your hearing
loss, if I may ask? I have tinnitus and am about 60 db down compared to
normal hearing, with several 100 db plus holes in various places. One
of the weird things about my particular flavor of hearing loss is that
all incoming sounds seem to get equal treatment in my brain. Whereas it
appears that most people can filter out the good stuff from the noise, I
end up treating all sounds equally. No mental DSP here, unfortunately! 8^)

At any rate, I've had to do a lot of work to get this far. Took 6 months
of intense work to get to 5wpm, and I've been working daily on
increasing my speed for the last month or so. I don't envy much, but I
envy those who were able to pick Morse code up in a few weekends.

- Mike KB3EIA -

"Mike Coslo" wrote in message
...
S. Hanrahan wrote:
On Wed, 05 Nov 2003 12:35:58 GMT, "Bert Craig"
wrote:


"S. Hanrahan" wrote in message
. .

At 5 WPM, you don't need a computer to copy good or poor code.

I think you've just hit the nail on the head. It's really not how hard
or
easy 5-wpm is, it's the willingness (or lack thereof) to make the
initial
(i.e. "initiative") effort to learn the 43 required characters.


Exactly. I look at it this way, if a person doesn't want to learn the
code, fine, if they want to fine, just don't come up to me and bitch
and moan that 5 WPM is a hurdle or mountain too high to climb.

I'm hearing impaired in both ears, and I can copy 45-50 WPM in my head
solidly, and attained the 20 before taking my General class written,
without waivers.

Now you have my attention, Stacey! What is the nature of your hearing
loss, if I may ask? I have tinnitus and am about 60 db down compared to
normal hearing, with several 100 db plus holes in various places. One
of the weird things about my particular flavor of hearing loss is that
all incoming sounds seem to get equal treatment in my brain. Whereas it
appears that most people can filter out the good stuff from the noise, I
end up treating all sounds equally. No mental DSP here, unfortunately! 8^)

At any rate, I've had to do a lot of work to get this far. Took 6 months
of intense work to get to 5wpm, and I've been working daily on
increasing my speed for the last month or so. I don't envy much, but I
envy those who were able to pick Morse code up in a few weekends.

- Mike KB3EIA -


We all envy those who can get it in a few hours. It takes a normal person
30 hours to get to 5wpm, 60 hours to get to 10wpm, 95 hours to get to 15wpm,
and 150 hours to get to 20wpm (info from the book "Morse Code, The Essential
Language"). Some of us will need more time and a few unusually talented
people will get it in a lot less.

So don't be discouraged. Keep at it. Get on the air and make some QSOs
even though you need to go slow. If you can tolerate the frustration, try a
contest even if you have to listen to the other station repeatedly to pick
out the info and then throw in your call. You'd very likely see a
noticeable improvement in speed.

Dee D. Flint, N8UZE