(N2EY) wrote in message ...
In article . net, "Dan/W4NTI"
w4nti@get rid of this mindspring.com writes:

But, I'll bet, if you think about it.....it made you a better operator. It
was a SKILL you HAD TO LEARN in order to StAY ON THE AIR? Think about it.

'zactly. No other option. The Novice was not supposed to be a permanent
license. That's why it had so few privileges and was so focused,

And the old Novice had another feature - it was a one-time one year license
until 1967, when it became two years. Which meant that you either upgraded
before the license ran out or you were off the air. The Novice year/2 years was
a big learning time. Lotta incentive!

In fact, one of the reasons FCC gave us incentive licensing was that they
perceived a drop off in learning after the Novice year.

Most sensible newbies in those times had at least a receiver and antenna set up
and working before they went for the Novice exam. They'd spent serious time
listening to hams on the air before ever taking a test. They knew which bands
were best at various times of day and year simply from observation. They
developed a lot of operating skills and knowledge of operating practices before
ever getting a transmitter.

When the Novice became 5 year renewable, that incentive went away.

We're not going to get the mfrs. to stop making IC-706s and start making S-40s,
so what's the solution?

Merge the Novice and Tech Plus classes into a new class and give the
new class the privileges of both. Along with moving what are now the
HF Novice bands down to the XX.025s with a 100-200W max power out.
Wouldn't hurt anything and it might work.

73 de Jim, N2EY

w3rv

(Brian Kelly) wrote in message . com...
(N2EY) wrote in message ...
In article . net, "Dan/W4NTI"
w4nti@get rid of this mindspring.com writes:

But, I'll bet, if you think about it.....it made you a better operator. It
was a SKILL you HAD TO LEARN in order to StAY ON THE AIR? Think about it.

'zactly. No other option. The Novice was not supposed to be a permanent
license. That's why it had so few privileges and was so focused,

And the old Novice had another feature - it was a one-time one year license
until 1967, when it became two years. Which meant that you either upgraded
before the license ran out or you were off the air. The Novice year/2 years was
a big learning time. Lotta incentive!

In fact, one of the reasons FCC gave us incentive licensing was that they
perceived a drop off in learning after the Novice year.

Most sensible newbies in those times had at least a receiver and antenna set up
and working before they went for the Novice exam. They'd spent serious time
listening to hams on the air before ever taking a test. They knew which bands
were best at various times of day and year simply from observation. They
developed a lot of operating skills and knowledge of operating practices before
ever getting a transmitter.

When the Novice became 5 year renewable, that incentive went away.

We're not going to get the mfrs. to stop making IC-706s and start making S-40s,
so what's the solution?

Merge the Novice and Tech Plus classes into a new class and give the
new class the privileges of both. Along with moving what are now the
HF Novice bands down to the XX.025s with a 100-200W max power out.
Wouldn't hurt anything and it might work.

Sounds good but doesn't go far enough.

How about this:

1) Three classes of license: Basic, Intermediate, Full (change the
names if you don't like them - Third, Second, First, Novice,
General, Extra, whatever)

2) HF/MF bands split into subbands by mode and split again by
license class. Some bands may be split by mode only.
Bottom of each band is CW only, middle is CW/digital, top is
phone/image. Percentage division about 20%/30%/50% (varies with
band). "Digital" includes digital voice modes if bandwidth under
1 kHz.

3) "Basic" license test is simple 20-25 question exam on regs,
procedures, and safety. Very little technical and RF exposure
stuff. Main objective is to keep Basics out of trouble. Basics
get 200-50 watts on HF/MF and 25 watts or so on VHF/UHF (power
level is below the point where RF exposure evaluation required).
Modes are CW, analog voice, PSK31, RTTY and many of the other
common data modes like packet. Basics cannot be VEs, control
ops for repeaters, or club trustees. Basics get most VHF/UHF
and about half of HF/MF spectrum, including parts of all
subbands-by-mode. Basic is meant as the entry level. Easy to
get, lots of privs, yet there's still a reason to upgrade.

4) "Intermediate" license test is more complex 50-60 question exam
on regs, procedures, safety and technical stuff. Intermediates
get 300-400 watts on all bands, all modes. Intermediates can be
VEs after qualification (see below), control ops for repeaters,
and club trustees. Intermediates get all VHF/UHF and about
three quarters (or more) of HF/MF spectrum. Intermediate requires
at least one year experience as a Basic.

5) "Full" license test is quite complex 100-120 question exam on
regs, procedures, safety and technical stuff. Mostly technical,
with some regs to cover expanded privs. Fulls get all
privileges, modes, bands, etc. except that Fulls can be VEs
only after qualification (see below). Full license requires
at least one year as an Intermediate.

6) All licenses are 10 year and fully renewable/modifiable. No
age requirements or limits.

7) Basics have six-character calls, Intermediates have five- or
six-character calls, and Fulls have four-, five-, or
six-character calls. Nobody has to give up an existing callsign.

8) Separate 30-35 question test for VE qualification, open to
Intermediates and Fulls, which allows them to be VEs. Existing
VEs are grandfathered.

9) Existing Novices, Techs and Tech Pluses become Basics,
existing Generals and Advanceds become Intermediates, and
existing Extras become Fulls. Existing hams can continue to
use their current privileges as long as they retain license
documents showing their old license class.

10) Experience requirement is not waived for existing hams to
upgrade, but their time in existing classes counts.

End result is a system that is easy to get into (Basic is
envisioned as a 21st century version of the Novice) and has
reasonable but meaningful steps to reach full privileges.
Testing matches the privs granted. Power levels are set about
one S-unit apart. Nobody loses any privileges. There are only
three license classes and four written tests, so FCC doesn't
have more work.

Example of new privileges:

80/75 meters
3500-3575 CW only
3575-3750 CW/data
3750-4000 CW/analog phone/image

Basic: 3525-3625 and 3900-4000
Intermediate: 3525-3750 and 3850-4000
Full: entire band


73 de Jim, N2EY

"N2EY" wrote in message
om...
(Brian Kelly) wrote in message
. com...
(N2EY) wrote in message
...
In article . net,
"Dan/W4NTI"
w4nti@get rid of this mindspring.com writes:

But, I'll bet, if you think about it.....it made you a better
operator. It
was a SKILL you HAD TO LEARN in order to StAY ON THE AIR? Think
about it.

'zactly. No other option. The Novice was not supposed to be a
permanent
license. That's why it had so few privileges and was so focused,

And the old Novice had another feature - it was a one-time one year
license
until 1967, when it became two years. Which meant that you either
upgraded
before the license ran out or you were off the air. The Novice year/2
years was
a big learning time. Lotta incentive!

In fact, one of the reasons FCC gave us incentive licensing was that
they
perceived a drop off in learning after the Novice year.

Most sensible newbies in those times had at least a receiver and
antenna set up
and working before they went for the Novice exam. They'd spent serious
time
listening to hams on the air before ever taking a test. They knew
which bands
were best at various times of day and year simply from observation.
They
developed a lot of operating skills and knowledge of operating
practices before
ever getting a transmitter.

When the Novice became 5 year renewable, that incentive went away.

We're not going to get the mfrs. to stop making IC-706s and start
making S-40s,
so what's the solution?

Merge the Novice and Tech Plus classes into a new class and give the
new class the privileges of both. Along with moving what are now the
HF Novice bands down to the XX.025s with a 100-200W max power out.
Wouldn't hurt anything and it might work.

Sounds good but doesn't go far enough.

How about this:

1) Three classes of license: Basic, Intermediate, Full (change the
names if you don't like them - Third, Second, First, Novice,
General, Extra, whatever)

2) HF/MF bands split into subbands by mode and split again by
license class. Some bands may be split by mode only.
Bottom of each band is CW only, middle is CW/digital, top is
phone/image. Percentage division about 20%/30%/50% (varies with
band). "Digital" includes digital voice modes if bandwidth under
1 kHz.

3) "Basic" license test is simple 20-25 question exam on regs,
procedures, and safety. Very little technical and RF exposure
stuff. Main objective is to keep Basics out of trouble. Basics
get 200-50 watts on HF/MF and 25 watts or so on VHF/UHF (power
level is below the point where RF exposure evaluation required).
Modes are CW, analog voice, PSK31, RTTY and many of the other
common data modes like packet. Basics cannot be VEs, control
ops for repeaters, or club trustees. Basics get most VHF/UHF
and about half of HF/MF spectrum, including parts of all
subbands-by-mode. Basic is meant as the entry level. Easy to
get, lots of privs, yet there's still a reason to upgrade.

4) "Intermediate" license test is more complex 50-60 question exam
on regs, procedures, safety and technical stuff. Intermediates
get 300-400 watts on all bands, all modes. Intermediates can be
VEs after qualification (see below), control ops for repeaters,
and club trustees. Intermediates get all VHF/UHF and about
three quarters (or more) of HF/MF spectrum. Intermediate requires
at least one year experience as a Basic.

5) "Full" license test is quite complex 100-120 question exam on
regs, procedures, safety and technical stuff. Mostly technical,
with some regs to cover expanded privs. Fulls get all
privileges, modes, bands, etc. except that Fulls can be VEs
only after qualification (see below). Full license requires
at least one year as an Intermediate.

6) All licenses are 10 year and fully renewable/modifiable. No
age requirements or limits.

7) Basics have six-character calls, Intermediates have five- or
six-character calls, and Fulls have four-, five-, or
six-character calls. Nobody has to give up an existing callsign.

8) Separate 30-35 question test for VE qualification, open to
Intermediates and Fulls, which allows them to be VEs. Existing
VEs are grandfathered.

9) Existing Novices, Techs and Tech Pluses become Basics,
existing Generals and Advanceds become Intermediates, and
existing Extras become Fulls. Existing hams can continue to
use their current privileges as long as they retain license
documents showing their old license class.

10) Experience requirement is not waived for existing hams to
upgrade, but their time in existing classes counts.

End result is a system that is easy to get into (Basic is
envisioned as a 21st century version of the Novice) and has
reasonable but meaningful steps to reach full privileges.
Testing matches the privs granted. Power levels are set about
one S-unit apart. Nobody loses any privileges. There are only
three license classes and four written tests, so FCC doesn't
have more work.

Example of new privileges:

80/75 meters
3500-3575 CW only
3575-3750 CW/data
3750-4000 CW/analog phone/image

Basic: 3525-3625 and 3900-4000
Intermediate: 3525-3750 and 3850-4000
Full: entire band



I like it Jim. I suggested to FCC years ago to go with a 3 tier license
structure. My major difference was to make the diverse modes a 'add on' to
the license. Instead of power restrictions.

Would be a lot easier to regulate that way. Having to test for a 'add on
endorsement' would still maintain the technical aspects of the ARS. And
provide a way of continued learning.

Just a thought.

Dan/W4NTI

73 de Jim, N2EY

Same here as well, but the basic would get full privileges except power,
limited to 200 watts (who needs much more than that anyways) on only 2
bands, one HF and one VHF/UHF band. At least I remember I had some thought
like that.....


--
Ryan, KC8PMX
FF1-FF2-MFR-(pending NREMT-B!)
--. --- -.. ... .- -. --. . .-.. ... .- .-. . ..-. .. .-. . ..-.
... --. .... - . .-. ...




I like it Jim. I suggested to FCC years ago to go with a 3 tier license
structure. My major difference was to make the diverse modes a 'add on'
to
the license. Instead of power restrictions.

Would be a lot easier to regulate that way. Having to test for a 'add on
endorsement' would still maintain the technical aspects of the ARS. And
provide a way of continued learning.

Just a thought.

Dan/W4NTI

73 de Jim, N2EY

(N2EY) wrote in message . com...
.. . . .

End result is a system that is easy to get into (Basic is
envisioned as a 21st century version of the Novice) and has
reasonable but meaningful steps to reach full privileges.
Testing matches the privs granted. Power levels are set about
one S-unit apart. Nobody loses any privileges. There are only
three license classes and four written tests, so FCC doesn't
have more work.

Example of new privileges:

80/75 meters
3500-3575 CW only
3575-3750 CW/data
3750-4000 CW/analog phone/image

Basic: 3525-3625 and 3900-4000
Intermediate: 3525-3750 and 3850-4000
Full: entire band

That's all well and good James and I'd support your basics but what
you're suggesting is a radical, complete top-to-bottom restructuring.
Much more so than any we've seen in the past seventy-some years.
Versus some Band-Aids on what already exists. With the FCC we have
today we'd be lucky to get even a Band-Aid or two let alone a complete
rework of HF ham radio. We're allowed to dream but then comes cold
hard reality.

73 de Jim, N2EY

w3rv

"N2EY" wrote

3) "Basic" license test is simple 20-25 question
exam on regs, procedures, and safety. Very little
technical and RF exposure stuff. Main objective
is to keep Basics out of trouble. Basics get
200-50 watts on HF/MF and 25 watts or so on
VHF/UHF (power level is below the point where
RF exposure evaluation required). Modes are
CW, analog voice, PSK31, RTTY and many of
the other common data modes like packet. Basics
cannot be VEs, control ops for repeaters, or club
trustees. Basics get most VHF/UHF and about
half of HF/MF spectrum, including parts of all
subbands-by-mode. Basic is meant as the entry
level. Easy to get, lots of privs, yet there's still a
reason to upgrade. (snip)

(snip)

9) Existing Novices, Techs and Tech Pluses
become Basics, (snip)


What is the justification for sharply cutting back on existing Tech and
Tech Plus privileges? We can presently use up to 1500 watts on VHF/UHF. You
suggest a 25 watt limit. We can currently be repeater control ops. You
suggest we shouldn't. We currently have no limits on operating modes. You
propose limits. Since there have been no serious problems reported in any of
these areas, I don't see a justification for any of these changes.


Dwight Stewart (W5NET)

http://www.qsl.net/w5net/

In article . net, "Dwight
Stewart" writes:

"N2EY" wrote

3) "Basic" license test is simple 20-25 question
exam on regs, procedures, and safety. Very little
technical and RF exposure stuff. Main objective
is to keep Basics out of trouble. Basics get
200-50 watts on HF/MF and 25 watts or so on
VHF/UHF (power level is below the point where
RF exposure evaluation required). Modes are
CW, analog voice, PSK31, RTTY and many of
the other common data modes like packet. Basics
cannot be VEs, control ops for repeaters, or club
trustees. Basics get most VHF/UHF and about
half of HF/MF spectrum, including parts of all
subbands-by-mode. Basic is meant as the entry
level. Easy to get, lots of privs, yet there's still a
reason to upgrade. (snip)

(snip)

9) Existing Novices, Techs and Tech Pluses
become Basics, (snip)


What is the justification for sharply cutting back on existing Tech and
Tech Plus privileges?

You snipped the second sentence of 9), Dwight. Here it is again:

9) Existing Novices, Techs and Tech Pluses become Basics,
existing Generals and Advanceds become Intermediates, and
existing Extras become Fulls. Existing hams can continue to
use their current privileges as long as they retain license
documents showing their old license class.

"Existing hams can continue to use their current privileges as long as they
retain license documents showing their old license class."

Just like Tech Pluses who have been renewed as Techs can still use HF, and
anybody with an old Novice or code-tested-Tech license document gets Element 1
credit. If FCC accepts the idea for those uses, why not for the above?

IOW, no existing ham loses any privileges.

73 de Jim, N2EY






We can presently use up to 1500 watts on VHF/UHF. You
suggest a 25 watt limit. We can currently be repeater control ops. You
suggest we shouldn't. We currently have no limits on operating modes. You
propose limits. Since there have been no serious problems reported in any of
these areas, I don't see a justification for any of these changes.

I don't see a justification for any of these changes.


Dwight Stewart (W5NE

Of course you dont, you want a FREE HANDOUT License.

"WA8ULX" wrote:

Of course you dont, you want a FREE HANDOUT License.


Bruce, I've having a hard time even believing you have a license. Based
on your poorly written messages in this newsgroup and others, I don't see
how you were literate enough to even understand the license exams? Clearly,
you're one of those who had to memorize the question pool instead of
understanding the content. Now that you have a license, you still don't seem
to understand the concepts behind ham radio - the concept of "goodwill"
obviously went right over your head.


Dwight Stewart (W5NET)

http://www.qsl.net/w5net/