Kim W5TIT wrote:
"Dwight Stewart" wrote in message
hlink.net...

"Larry Roll K3LT" wrote:

How many CW contacts have you made in your
ham "career?" I'm into the multiple thousands. If
you have less than 500, then you're not even close
to being qualified to render a judgment against
code testing.


And exactly how does the number of CW contacts made qualify one to make

a

judgement about the value of code testing as a license requirement?



Well, more importantly, when was the last time Larry wore a bra?
(Wooshhhhhh--he will never get that one).

Now THAT doesn't bring up good mental images, Kim! I may be damaged
now! 8^)

- Mike KB3EIA -

"Dwight Stewart" wrote in message
hlink.net...
"Larry Roll K3LT" wrote:

(snip) However, as previously stated, you are not qualified
to make any judgment against the code testing requirement,
since you have not gained practical operational experience
in this mode. (snip)


Larry, one does not need to survive a house fire to make judgements
about
fire safety. Or be attacked by a foreign government to make a judgement
about certain defense planning. Or live under a dictator to make
judgements
about laws affecting our freedoms. Or experience a business failure to
make
wise business judgements. Or experience anything else firsthand to make
value judgements about it.


HEY! a roundabout way of what I said earlier in the thread when
told "you weren't there, so you couldn't KNOW!"

Clint
KB5ZHT

One does have to eat a pizza to evaluate its taste and whether they will
like it or not.

snip erroneous diatribe

incorrect anology... the correct one would be to say "you don't have to eat
a pizza to know WHAT it is, and WHAT it's made of".

it's so easy.

Clint
KB5ZHT

"Clint" rattlehead at computron dot net wrote in message
...


One does have to eat a pizza to evaluate its taste and whether they will
like it or not.

snip erroneous diatribe

incorrect anology... the correct one would be to say "you don't have to
eat
a pizza to know WHAT it is, and WHAT it's made of".

it's so easy.

Clint
KB5ZHT

No my analogy is quite correct. To determine the worth of pizza, you must
eat to see if it is a food worth your bother. Knowing the ingredients will
not tell you that. Watching other people eat one will not tell you that.
Same with Morse code. Reading about past and present usage, looking at the
table of dots and dashes, and watching other people operate, etc will not
tell you whether you like it. It will only tell you what it is and what it
is made of. Until you experience using the code for yourself (i.e. eating
the pizza for yourself), it is impossible to tell whether you will like it.

Dee D. Flint, N8UZE

"Kim W5TIT" wrote ...

But, but, but!!!! Larry's obviously got or had large boobs, and has
obviously worn a bra. Right?! He *has* hasn't he? Surely, for if not he
would not be making value judgements on my callsign.
__________________________________________________ _______________

It took a while, but I have grown accustomed to your callsign, Kim. And it
wasn't necessary for me to wear a bra to do it. ;-)

Arnie -
KT4ST

Clint wrote:
One does have to eat a pizza to evaluate its taste and whether they will
like it or not.


snip erroneous diatribe

incorrect anology... the correct one would be to say "you don't have to eat
a pizza to know WHAT it is, and WHAT it's made of".

it's so easy.

Clint
KB5ZHT

In article k.net, "Dwight
Stewart" writes:

"Larry Roll K3LT" wrote:

(snip) However, as previously stated, you are not qualified
to make any judgment against the code testing requirement,
since you have not gained practical operational experience
in this mode. (snip)

Larry, one does not need to survive a house fire to make judgements about
fire safety. Or be attacked by a foreign government to make a judgement
about certain defense planning. Or live under a dictator to make judgements
about laws affecting our freedoms. Or experience a business failure to make
wise business judgements. Or experience anything else firsthand to make
value judgements about it.

Dwight, if Larrah had to do it, EVERYBODY has to do it.

(snip) You have not had that mode's unique benefits
and advantages proved to you over and over again through
years of daily OTA use. I have. (snip)

Again, this is not about Morse Code/CW use - it's about the code test
requirement. I can have that operational experience without a test
requirement and you can continue to enjoy the "mode's unique benefits and
advantages" long after the testing requirement is gone.

Larrah can't grasp the theological import of that clear and concise idea.
He is a self-professed "true believer" and cannot see ANY other religious
idea but his old cult status.

LHA

In article , ospam
(Larry Roll K3LT) writes:

In article k.net, "Dwight
Stewart" writes:

"Larry Roll K3LT" wrote:

This may be so, but it is an imperfect system being
directed by people with imperfect wisdom and
questionable motives. I say questionable because
their motives, for the most part, are entirely
self-serving.


Can you can show me one law in this country that wasn't advocated by
people with self-serving motives? Laws, by their very nature, tend to serve
the interests of at least someone. In reality, the only reason you're
pointing to this is because people are now advocating the change of a law
you happen to like (the code test requirement). And, of course, you would
like everyone to believe your position in all this is not at all
self-serving.

Dwight:

Which it isn't. The only outcome I desire is to preserve Morse code testing
in order to preserve the continued growth in the numbers of new hams who
have been exposed to training in this mode, in the interest of getting some
percentage of them to get to the point where they can effectively use it
OTA.

Riiiiiiiigt... :-)

Outside of sounding like low-grade bull****, that "reason" could be taken
as wanting a government WELFARE program to preserve morse code.

If morsemanship is so damn much fun, easy to learn, etc., then it can
be done WITHOUT needing the subsistence of any federal testing.

And it is my right as an American Citizen to make an
attempt to preserve this requirement. I am not
challenging your right to do the opposite, even though
you seem interesting in squelching my own efforts. What
are you afraid of?

I'm afraid of your motives in all this, Larry. I don't like the words I
hear from many advocating the continuation of the code testing requirement.
Those words often reek of bigotry, elitism, and discrimination against other
Americans.

One of the classic NCTA whines. Us horrible old PCTA's want to keep
Morse code going so that we can continue to demonstrate the dominance
of the white, middle-class, American male, who represents 5% of the
world's population yet consumes 25% of the planet's resources, and is
responsible for racism, bigotry, famine, disease, poverty, ethnic cleansing,
global warming, destruction of the environment, homophobia, halitosis,
and every other bad thing you can think of.

All Dwight said was that "your words reek of bigotry, elitism, and
discrimination against other Americans."

If you want to sound immature, do continue in your demonstrated mode
instead of trying to present cogent counter-arguments. [that would be a
refreshing change...]

Yawn! However, I guess that
works for you NCTA's, in the absence of any truly valid reason for the
further dumbing-down of licensing requirements in the ARS.

"Dumbing down" would be accurate for the Archaic Radiotelegraphy
Society (ARS).

However, in the United States, the Amateur Radio Service is NOT all
about morsemanship. Therefore, trying to KEEP the US ARS at 1930s
standards and practices is definitely a DUMBING DOWN...and you ARE
guilty of that.


Are you comfortable with some of the things said by those with
your position? Are you comfortable with some of the things you've said (the
garbage about a dumb downed America, your superiority, and so on)?

Don't look now, Dwight, but America *is* dumbed-down.

Roll, you've lost what little senses you have, even after that BA in "Human
Resources." :-(

It has been made
that way by a liberal, socialist media that continuously mocks traditional
values of morality, integrity, ingenuity and hard work, and makes it a virtue
to be dependent on government for cradle-to-grave life support.

...all because YOU didn't get a high-level position in Human Resources
(that you naturally deserve) on graduating college? Tsk, tsk, tsk.



Since it appears only a small minority of hams use Morse/CW on a regular
or routine basis,

And it is my desire that the ARS continues to have at least that "small
number"
of CW-using hams among it's ranks. I don't think that's too much to ask.

That can still be done...WITHOUT testing.

If YOU want to TRULY support personal initiative without "government
support" (and all its 'evil' socialist-like things) then you should be able
to eliminate the federal code test!

Except you do NOT. You keep demanding that the government continue
the federal code test in order to keep a few code users around...

H Y P O C R I S Y


And it is my belief that unless we preserve code testing, those goals cannot
be fully achieved.

You seem very confused. First you damn all that federal government
welfare...then you demand that the government keep on testing code.



Therefore, any testing requirement
must be judged within the context of each of these. The code testing
requirement fails in each regard.

Just the opposite is true. However, as previously stated, you are not
qualified to make any judgment against the code testing requirement,
since you have not gained practical operational experience in this mode.

Reducto ad absurdum judgement.

The FCC regulates and licenses ALL civil radio in the USA...yet none of
the staff nor commission of the FCC is required to pass any morse code
test in order to regulate US amateur radio.

You seem dumb and dumberer to the fact that every other radio service
(except a small part of maritime radio) in the USA has either DROPPED
morse code skill or never considered it as worthwhile when that service
started. Morse code is "alive" only in AMATEUR radio...and then only as
just another recreation.

You have not had that mode's unique benefits and advantages proved
to you over and over again through years of daily OTA use.

Every other radio service that ever used morse code, not only "daily"
but in 24/7 use, has DROPPED it. There were NO "benefits" or
"advantages" there that they found. Had there been any, they would
have kept it.

I have.

You are NOT any sort of "authority." You pretend to be one, but your
pretense is transparent.

And I didn't go into ham radio as a CW "lover" by any means -- in fact,
I was a dedicated NCTA at the time. I came across to the other side
due to my own experience with Morse/CW, and thus became a True
Believer.

Nonsense. You were able to achieve tested proficiency in code by
passing a 20 WPM federal test...that enabled you to get an Amateur
Extra class license so that you could now have SOME kind of "high"
award for your life experience. That rank-status-privilege artificiality
allowed you to be "better" than "lower" classes.


I'm reasonably sure you'll ultimately get your way, since that's the
direction this country is going in general -- down the tubes.

Not really. YOUR life may be going down the tubes but the rest of us
are rather firmly involved with optimism and are forging a brighter future
even for those who, like yourself, remain rooted in old ways, old values,
old standards, old practices, with a strict moral-superiority code stuck
in your own ego.

Get some mental therapy, Roll. It will help you in the long run.

LHA

No my analogy is quite correct. To determine the worth of pizza, you
must
eat to see if it is a food worth your bother. Knowing the ingredients
will
not tell you that.

here's a more accurate anology....

"You can't possibly know anything about pizza, and i'm telling you that
it's an important staple to you diet. Your opinion means nothing; I
am now pointing the gun of licenseing system at your head and
ORDERING you to take a bite of the pizza, I am not worried
one bit about what the facts are or what the market wants... I am
going to see to it that everybody is force fed pizza whether they
like it or not."

Clint
KB5ZHT

Outside of sounding like low-grade bull****, that "reason" could be
taken
as wanting a government WELFARE program to preserve morse code.

If morsemanship is so damn much fun, easy to learn, etc., then it can
be done WITHOUT needing the subsistence of any federal testing.

That was my EXACT point in an earlier post.... I was told by a certain
PCTA type that "it won't exist anymore unless we force it on everybody"...
well, heh, according to darwin and also the free market, the most fit
survive and the free market, left to run the course as it will in and of
its own needs will result in the best suited result.

If you have to MAKE it happen, then it isn't making it on it's own
merit.




I'm afraid of your motives in all this, Larry. I don't like the words
I
hear from many advocating the continuation of the code testing
requirement.
Those words often reek of bigotry, elitism, and discrimination against
other
Americans.

social engineering.
it's affirmative action for CW; it's as you said, a welfare program for
it....


One of the classic NCTA whines. Us horrible old PCTA's want to keep
Morse code going so that we can continue to demonstrate the dominance
of the white, middle-class, American male, who represents 5% of the
world's population yet consumes 25% of the planet's resources,

and ALSO produces 33% of the worlds economic output, to the tune
of 11 TRILLION dollars out of the 33 trillion sum total of all nations.

Just to keep the record straight.

Clint
KB5ZHT