N2EY wrote:

In article , Mike Coslo
writes:


N2EY wrote:


In article ,



(Larry Roll K3LT) writes:



I think that the most likely scenario is that they will do as you suggest,
and distill it down to two license classes, General and Extra. All current
Techs would be "grandfathered" to the General class, and the Extra will
remain the same, sans Element 1(a). This would be the easiest change
to accomplish from an administrative standpoint, and they wouldn't have
to even bother renaming the remaining license classes, which would only
risk causing resentment among current Extras. There could be, at most,
a requirement for current Techs to pass another written element, but the
grandfathering would be an easier fix.


ARRL asked for something very similar back in 1998 and FCC said no. (ARRL's
proposal would have given Novices and Tech Pluses instant upgrades to

General).

Such an instant upgrade has these problems:

1) A lot of screaming about "no giveaways"

Let's test your premise here, Jim. Would you support a one class system


in which all amateurs that have passed Novice, Tech, General or (of
course) Extra get an "instant upgrade" to Extra?


No. In fact, not just "no" but "HELL, NO!!"

Okay, now I know a little more where you stand on this. I wasn't sure if
you were being DA on it or what..... Wait a second... DA means Devil's
Advocate... other interpretations might not be so kind! 8^)


snip

Can anyone *prove* to me that the Extra written contains things a ham *must*
know to operate on the Extra-only subbands?

Nope! There is really not much reason to go from General to Extra
beyond personal satisfaction!

- Mike KB3EIA -

In article , Mike Coslo
writes:

Can anyone *prove* to me that the Extra written contains things a ham
*must*
know to operate on the Extra-only subbands?

Nope! There is really not much reason to go from General to Extra
beyond personal satisfaction!

- Mike KB3EIA -

Mike:

In the past (the Pre-Restructuring Era), the reason for upgrading was that
increased operating privileges were the reward for gaining increased
technical knowledge and operating skill. The ARS seems to have taken
a clue from the rest of our dumbed-down society and abandoned this
philosophy.

73 de Larry, K3LT

Larry Roll K3LT wrote:

In article , Mike Coslo
writes:


Can anyone *prove* to me that the Extra written contains things a ham

*must*

know to operate on the Extra-only subbands?

Nope! There is really not much reason to go from General to Extra
beyond personal satisfaction!

- Mike KB3EIA -


Mike:

In the past (the Pre-Restructuring Era), the reason for upgrading was that
increased operating privileges were the reward for gaining increased
technical knowledge and operating skill. The ARS seems to have taken
a clue from the rest of our dumbed-down society and abandoned this
philosophy.

And what I'm thinking is that unless it means something again, they
might as well get rid of it. That little sliver of operating frequencies
is not worth it, if increased privileges are the measuring stick.

- Mike KB3EIA -

"Mike Coslo" wrote in message
et...

And what I'm thinking is that unless it means something again, they
might as well get rid of it. That little sliver of operating frequencies
is not worth it, if increased privileges are the measuring stick.

- Mike KB3EIA -


Actually, the differences in privs from General to Extra are substantial.
With the FCC no longer issuing Advanced licenses, the only way to
gain access to the "Advanced sub-bands" is to upgrade to Extra.

I'd say that's a pretty good incentive.

73,
Carl - wk3c

"Carl R. Stevenson" wrote in message ...
"Mike Coslo" wrote in message
et...

And what I'm thinking is that unless it means something again, they
might as well get rid of it. That little sliver of operating frequencies
is not worth it, if increased privileges are the measuring stick.

Actually, the differences in privs from General to Extra are substantial.

Are they? Let's take a look...

What additional frequency spectrum does a General get by upgrading to
Extra?

On VHF/UHF - nothing

On MF - nothing

On HF:

100 kHz of non-phone/image space on 4 bands. This amounts to ~8.5% of
the 1182 kHz of non-phone/image space on the eight HF amateur bands.

350 kHz of phone/image space on 4 bands. This amounts to ~14.8% of the
2368 kHz of phone/image space on the eight HF amateur bands.

Total: 450 kHz of space out of a total of 3550 kHz on the eight HF
amateur bands. ~12.7% more space

What additional frequency spectrum does an Advanced get by upgrading
to Extra?

On VHF/UHF - nothing

On MF - nothing

On HF:

100 kHz of non-phone/image space on 4 bands. This amounts to ~8.5% of
the 1182 kHz of non-phone/image space on the eight HF amateur bands.

75 kHz of phone/image space on 3 bands. This amounts to ~3.2% of the
2368 kHz of phone/image space on the eight HF amateur bands.

Total: 175 kHz of space out of a total of 3550 kHz on the eight HF
amateur bands. ~4.9% more space

Of the 3550 kHz in the eight HF amateur bands, 66.7% - almost exactly
two-thirds - is allocated to phone/image, while slightly less than
one-third is non-phone/image space.

With the FCC no longer issuing Advanced licenses, the only way to
gain access to the "Advanced sub-bands" is to upgrade to Extra.

Said subbands consist of 275 kHz on four bands, all of it phone/image
space.

I'd say that's a pretty good incentive.

There's also the spiffy callsigns.

But it all depends on what it is a ham wants to do.

Back before restructuring, the ham who wasn't interested in
phone/image had no reason to get an Advanced. And the ham who wasn't
interested in CW/data had relatively little reason to get an Extra.

73 de Jim, N2EY

"N2EY" wrote in message
om...
Back before restructuring, the ham who wasn't interested in
phone/image had no reason to get an Advanced. And the ham who wasn't
interested in CW/data had relatively little reason to get an Extra.

73 de Jim, N2EY

Except that I found very early on that a lot of the more interesting DX
tended to be in what are the Extra subbands in the US. So I set my sights
on getting the Extra for that reason.

Dee D. Flint, N8UZE

In article , "Dee D. Flint"
writes:

"N2EY" wrote in message
. com...
Back before restructuring, the ham who wasn't interested in
phone/image had no reason to get an Advanced. And the ham who wasn't
interested in CW/data had relatively little reason to get an Extra.

73 de Jim, N2EY

Except that I found very early on that a lot of the more interesting DX
tended to be in what are the Extra subbands in the US. So I set my sights
on getting the Extra for that reason.

Of course! Those parts could also be very productive in contests because of the
reduced crowding,

My point was simply that the Advanced did not give any more CW/data privileges
- the incentive was all 'phone.

Some folks make a big deal about how "tough", "theoretical" and "mathematical"
the old Advanced written was. Supposedly tougher than the Extra, yada yada
yada.

But back in 1968, when I was at the FCC office for the General, the examiner
said "why not try the Advanced while you're here?" (Could not do Extra because
back then it had a 2 year experience requirement).

So I took it and passed easily even though I had not studied for it at all. I
was 14 and it was the summer between 8th and 9th grades. Not a big deal even
then because I knew of 12 year old Extras back then.

73 de Jim, N2EY

"Mike Coslo" wrote in message
et...
Larry Roll K3LT wrote:

In article , Mike Coslo
writes:


Can anyone *prove* to me that the Extra written contains things a ham

*must*

know to operate on the Extra-only subbands?

Nope! There is really not much reason to go from General to Extra
beyond personal satisfaction!

- Mike KB3EIA -


Mike:

In the past (the Pre-Restructuring Era), the reason for upgrading was
that
increased operating privileges were the reward for gaining increased
technical knowledge and operating skill. The ARS seems to have taken
a clue from the rest of our dumbed-down society and abandoned this
philosophy.

And what I'm thinking is that unless it means something again, they
might as well get rid of it. That little sliver of operating frequencies
is not worth it, if increased privileges are the measuring stick.

- Mike KB3EIA -


Wrong again Mike. Its a place to go to get away from the 'others'... hi.

Dan/W4NTI

Dan/W4NTI wrote:

"Mike Coslo" wrote in message
et...

Larry Roll K3LT wrote:


In article , Mike Coslo
writes:



Can anyone *prove* to me that the Extra written contains things a ham

*must*


know to operate on the Extra-only subbands?

Nope! There is really not much reason to go from General to Extra
beyond personal satisfaction!

- Mike KB3EIA -


Mike:

In the past (the Pre-Restructuring Era), the reason for upgrading was

that

increased operating privileges were the reward for gaining increased
technical knowledge and operating skill. The ARS seems to have taken
a clue from the rest of our dumbed-down society and abandoned this
philosophy.

And what I'm thinking is that unless it means something again, they
might as well get rid of it. That little sliver of operating frequencies
is not worth it, if increased privileges are the measuring stick.

- Mike KB3EIA -



Wrong again Mike. Its a place to go to get away from the 'others'... hi.

Hmm, you just might have a point there, Dan!

- Mike KB3EIA -

In article , Mike Coslo
writes:

In the past (the Pre-Restructuring Era), the reason for upgrading was that
increased operating privileges were the reward for gaining increased
technical knowledge and operating skill. The ARS seems to have taken
a clue from the rest of our dumbed-down society and abandoned this
philosophy.

And what I'm thinking is that unless it means something again, they
might as well get rid of it. That little sliver of operating frequencies
is not worth it, if increased privileges are the measuring stick.

- Mike KB3EIA -

Mike:

True, if you're talking about the difference between Advanced and Extra
under the Pre-Restructuring system. In that system, the motivation to
upgrade to Extra was to gain the International DX "windows" on phone
and CW, plus the benefit of the 1x2 and 2x1 callsigns, and the "status" that
went with being an Amateur Extra. I considered that to be well worth
the effort required to pass Elements 1(c) and 2(e). However, "status"
among hams is now Politically Incorrect, so we must now endure the
"socialized" licensing system we now have in the ARS. Personally, I
didn't have too many problems with the No-code Tech concept, except
for the fact that even though it literally gave away 97% of all amateur
operating privileges, it only led to greater expectations of even more
dumbing-down.

73 de Larry, K3LT