"N2EY" wrote in message
...
In article , "Ryan, KC8PMX"
writes:

Yeah Jim.... six meter all mode.

I made a lucky guess.


Probably, but I also had made mention at least once somewhere in the past as
well.



It's hard as hell to use it right now with
the powerline interference in this freakin' county even before they
implement this whole BPL stuff!!!!!

Oh man...they can't even keep the lines quiet without BPL...

Perhaps their own line noise will mess up BPL performance.

We could only hope so! Wouldn't that be the ultimate irony. Using my
shortwave reciever is next to being a futile attempt. Have packed the
damned thing away for that same reason. In the truck, the AM radio can be a
trick to listen to if you are trying to listen to a station that is normally
always 5-9. If you run along a line of powerlines that happen to be
parallel to the roadway for a bit, forget listening to that station for a
while.....


--
Ryan, KC8PMX
FF1-FF2-MFR
--. --- -.. ... .- -. --. . .-.. ... .- .-. . ..-. .. .-. . ..-.
... --. .... - . .-. ...

"Ryan, KC8PMX" wrote in message
...

"N2EY" wrote in message
...
In article , "Ryan, KC8PMX"
writes:

Yeah Jim.... six meter all mode.

I made a lucky guess.


Probably, but I also had made mention at least once somewhere in the past
as
well.



It's hard as hell to use it right now with
the powerline interference in this freakin' county even before they
implement this whole BPL stuff!!!!!

Oh man...they can't even keep the lines quiet without BPL...

Perhaps their own line noise will mess up BPL performance.

We could only hope so! Wouldn't that be the ultimate irony. Using my
shortwave reciever is next to being a futile attempt. Have packed the
damned thing away for that same reason. In the truck, the AM radio can be
a
trick to listen to if you are trying to listen to a station that is
normally
always 5-9. If you run along a line of powerlines that happen to be
parallel to the roadway for a bit, forget listening to that station for a
while.....


--
Ryan, KC8PMX
FF1-FF2-MFR
--. --- -.. ... .- -. --. . .-.. ... .- .-. . ..-. .. .-. . ..-.
.. --. .... - . .-. ...


Tell me about it. I've been fighting with Alabama Power for 4 years. And I
still have noise.

Dan/W4NTI

Fortunately Charter around here is somewhat ameanable (sp.?) to repairing
their systems, but it is a challenge still. Consumers Energy around here is
next to impossible to deal with though. I am still a strong proponent to
buried power lines as opposed to powerlines on poles.


--
Ryan, KC8PMX
FF1-FF2-MFR-(pending NREMT-B!)
--. --- -.. ... .- -. --. . .-.. ... .- .-. . ..-. .. .-. . ..-.
... --. .... - . .-. ...

(snippage)
a
trick to listen to if you are trying to listen to a station that is
normally
always 5-9. If you run along a line of powerlines that happen to be
parallel to the roadway for a bit, forget listening to that station for
a
while.....


--
Ryan, KC8PMX
FF1-FF2-MFR
--. --- -.. ... .- -. --. . .-.. ... .- .-. . ..-. .. .-. . ..-.
.. --. .... - . .-. ...


Tell me about it. I've been fighting with Alabama Power for 4 years. And
I
still have noise.

Dan/W4NTI

"Ryan, KC8PMX" wrote in message
...
Fortunately Charter around here is somewhat ameanable (sp.?) to repairing
their systems, but it is a challenge still. Consumers Energy around here
is
next to impossible to deal with though. I am still a strong proponent to
buried power lines as opposed to powerlines on poles.


Even if the area distribution lines are buried, the wires come up
to (usually pad-mounted above ground) transformers and the
BPL signal will permeate all the wiring in your (and your
neighbors') house(s) ...

Underground distribution will help (some) but it doesn't actually
solve the problem.

Carl - wk3c

Even if the area distribution lines are buried, the wires come up
to (usually pad-mounted above ground) transformers and the
BPL signal will permeate all the wiring in your (and your
neighbors') house(s) ...

Underground distribution will help (some) but it doesn't actually
solve the problem.

Right now, the emissions I heard in the trial areas were weaker in areas of
underground distribution. However, the losses are higher, so the utility would
have to install its digital repeaters more often along the underground lines.
It is a safe assumption that the industry that is asking the FCC for higher
emissions limits will increase the power so that underground wiring is at those
limits, too. We need to stay focused on what the rules would permit -- 30 uV/m
at 30 m -- rather than individual implementations that may be below the limits
in some cases.

Right now, the companies are probably using "stock" equipment for these
marketing trials. When it goes live, you can bet they will develop higher
powered systems as the most economical way to deploy in underground-wiring
areas.

73,
Ed Hare, W1RFI

In article ,
(W1RFI) writes:

Even if the area distribution lines are buried, the wires come up
to (usually pad-mounted above ground) transformers and the
BPL signal will permeate all the wiring in your (and your
neighbors') house(s) ...

Underground distribution will help (some) but it doesn't actually
solve the problem.

Right now, the emissions I heard in the trial areas were weaker in areas of
underground distribution.

That's to be expected if you stayed on the street. If you drove up to a house,
the racket might be a lot more.

The real killer test would be to have a "typical" amateur station in a
neighborhood served by underground utilities carrying BPL. Say, a 2 story frame
house on a half-acre or so, with a G5RV or dipole at 50 feet strung over the
the house.

Wonder how much BPL garbage that setup would pick up?

However, the losses are higher, so the utility
would
have to install its digital repeaters more often along the underground lines.
It is a safe assumption that the industry that is asking the FCC for higher
emissions limits will increase the power so that underground wiring is at
those
limits, too. We need to stay focused on what the rules would permit -- 30
uV/m
at 30 m -- rather than individual implementations that may be below the
limits in some cases.

A question arises - 30 m from what? If every piece of house wiring has the BPL
signals on it, in many locations you cannot get 30 meters away.

Right now, the companies are probably using "stock" equipment for these
marketing trials. When it goes live, you can bet they will develop higher
powered systems as the most economical way to deploy in underground-wiring
areas.

Is there stock equipment for BPL yet? Or could they be using prototypes?

73 es tnx for all the hard work de Jim, N2EY

I still owe ya that lobstah, Ed.

Wonder how much BPL garbage that setup would pick up?

My guess is about S7 at 100 feet spacing between houses, on frequencies that
BPL was using. That is assuming they didn't crank up the power to meet Part 15
limits so they could go farther and/or have more immunity to noise.

A question arises - 30 m from what? If every piece of house wiring has the
BPL
signals on it, in many locations you cannot get 30 meters away.

Correct. The limit is for 30 meters distance. There are cases where it can't
be measured there, and the FCC allows measurements to be made at other
distances, and extrapolated to 30 meters. But here's the kicker -- they allow
the extrapolation at a 40log(distance ratio), unlike virtually every other
country in the world. That translates to an inverse-to-the-fourth power ratio.
Think any of the Part 15 guys make measurements at 3 meters that COULD be made
at 30 meters, just to gain that extra 20 dB?

Is there stock equipment for BPL yet? Or could they be using prototypes?

At this point, PPL is going commercial in the Allentown area. I have offered
several times to show them exactly what they are getting themselves into, but
their BPL engineer does not answer my email.

That is kinda' odd, because if I were about to invest millions of dollars and a
national organization came along and told me that there was a major problem
with it, then offered to drive 200 miles to show me, I think I would want to
hear what they had to say and would find an hour's time.

Any PPL shareholders here? :-)

73,
Ed Hare, W1RFI

I was referring to the noise in the power lines as it is now.... not with
BPL going......


--
Ryan, KC8PMX
FF1-FF2-MFR
--. --- -.. ... .- -. --. . .-.. ... .- .-. . ..-. .. .-. . ..-.
... --. .... - . .-. ...
"Carl R. Stevenson" wrote in message
...

"Ryan, KC8PMX" wrote in message
...
Fortunately Charter around here is somewhat ameanable (sp.?) to
repairing
their systems, but it is a challenge still. Consumers Energy around
here
is
next to impossible to deal with though. I am still a strong proponent
to
buried power lines as opposed to powerlines on poles.


Even if the area distribution lines are buried, the wires come up
to (usually pad-mounted above ground) transformers and the
BPL signal will permeate all the wiring in your (and your
neighbors') house(s) ...

Underground distribution will help (some) but it doesn't actually
solve the problem.

Carl - wk3c

"Ryan, KC8PMX" wrote in message ...
Fortunately Charter around here is somewhat ameanable (sp.?) to repairing
their systems, but it is a challenge still. Consumers Energy around here is
next to impossible to deal with though.

As Carl points out, burying the distribution doesn't solve the BPL
problem. The whole idea is to deliver the BPL signal to every outlet
in your house - and your garage, and your neighbors' houses, and the
street lights...

I am still a strong proponent to
buried power lines as opposed to powerlines on poles.

There are pros and cons to aerial vs. underground utilities.

Except in dense areas like the downtowns of cities where the cost of
duct lines is comparable to that of poles, the installation cost of
aerial is much lower.

Although immune to most weather problems, buried utilities are subject
to flooding. They are also not immune to lightning.

Buried electric power distribution is less efficient than aerial. This
effect increases with voltage and distance, too. Burying the drop from
the road to your house isn't an efficiency problem, but burying miles
of medium and high voltage stuff *is*.

The net effect of burying a significant part of the aerial network
would be to require the construction of many new generating facilities
(and their pollution, etc.) to make up for the losses of the
underground network. A real triple whammy - higher first cost of the
line, lots of new plants to build and pay for, and higher overall
operating cost.

And buried lines make our antennas stick out that much more ;-)

73 de Jim, N2EY