"Kim W5TIT" wrote:

(snip) I am telling you that my experience has been
that people who are customarily born in this country
feel that the jobs we are speaking of are beneath them.
(snip) But, how dare you dismiss the experiences I have
seen.


Again, I'm not dismissing your experiences. Instead, I'm questioning the
conclusions you've made about those experiences. You say, based on your
experiences with other people, nobody in this country other than immigrants
is willing to do those jobs? How many of those non-immigrant people did you
ask if they would take those jobs if the wages were better? I suspect just
about all of them would at least consider, and many would gladly take, those
jobs under different wage conditions. If I'm right, your conclusions are
flat wrong - non-immigrants are willing to do those jobs. And, if you are
wrong, to continue to perpetrate a myth that non-immigrants are either too
lazy or too uppish to do that work is simply insulting.


And, how dare you again, Dwight. (snip) How dare you
imply that I "don't care" about bad policies in this country.
Have I once said I don't care? (snip)


Lay off the false outrage, Kim. Nobody said you didn't care. I said "few
seem to care," not "Kim doesn't care." If you apply those words to yourself,
you do so in your own mind. If others want to apply those words to you,
they'll do so after reading what you've said.


(snip) and I've just told you I am basing that on experience. Go
to the Unemployment lines. I haven't--but I *BET* the majority
of people in those lines are not looking for work on farms, at
Wal-Mart, with municipalities, landscape companies, construction
firms, asbestos abatement firms, chemical and biological hazard
waste firms, and our ever-famous convenience stores such as
7-Eleven--all of which need people constantly.


Your experiences are clearly somewhat limited. Walmart doesn't hire
through state or outside employment agencies. Potential employees apply at
the individual stores and there are rarely shortages of applicants.
Municipalities tend to pay fairly well (with good benefits), hence rarely
have a shortage of applicants (skilled applicants is another matter).
Landscape companies, to keep costs down, are perhaps the largest employers
of illegal immigrants. Construction companies only have problems finding
skilled applicants (laborers are plentiful). The same with most other
companies seeking skilled labor. Convenience store jobs are among the lowest
paying, and most dangerous, in the country. In other words, none of these
tend to prove your point.


(snip) All one need do is look around them to see where our
youth find important and meaningful employment: McDonald's
and other fast food joints, light dining restaurants, and that's
about it. (snip)


You've got to be kidding, Kim. You consider employment at fast food
joints, some of the lowest paying jobs in this country, to be "important and
meaningful employment?"


(snip) Why did I break-out to light dining restaurants? Because
I don't see teen-agers in the "finer" dining restaraunts - and my
husband and I love to eat out so we have some experience.
Know why *I* think they (teen-agers) aren't there? Because
there, the customer service is higher scale, which demands more
personality, better etiquette, and of course--greater work ethic.


Or maybe the owners simply don't hire teenagers.


Guess who we do see serving us in those restaurants?


Who, Kim? You've already said teenagers (immigrant and non-immigrant)
don't work in these restaurants. That leaves only adults. I suppose you're
now going to say immigrant adults have more personally, better etiquette,
and a greater work ethic, than non-immigrant adults in this country, which
is why immigrant adults, not non-immigrant adults, work in the restaurants
you go to.


My husband has been at his formerly family-owned business
for 27 years. His mom sold the company last year. For most
of those 27 years, until about 10 years ago, they had a great
crew of folks. Since then, the main focus of my husband's
every day work has been to get someone in there who wants
a job and will work. Know how many nieces nephews, and
his own kids and my son, he has had through those years?
Ten. Not one of them has ever, ever worked there. (snip)


Perhaps that says more about your husband than the nieces, nephews, and
kids. That's not intended as an insult. Instead, it's just to point out that
few kids are willing to work for parents or immediate relatives - parents
and relatives tend to be more demanding and more judgmental than the normal
employer.


If the factories are closing, then what jobs are the immigrants
moving in to take? (snip) I am still curious to know if factories
are closing, what jobs are available for anyone to take? (snip)


Didn't I pretty much answer that in the next paragraph of that message?
There are obviously more jobs in town than just factory jobs, Kim. The
elimination of those factory jobs simply adds to the competition for those
remaining jobs.


Well, excuse me for the honesty--you'll call it having my
blinders on or not caring, maybe even because I am a
"liberal"--but, if one contract put this company out of
business, then perhaps the person should have gone on
to some form of vocational or higher level training in
business practices before they took such a jump. (snip)


It happened to be about a $450k per year contract, the loss of which his
company could not absorb.


(snip) if we have no control over the employment
situation in this country--we don't whine about it. We
knuckle under, get the menial jobs, sell the big house,
get the little house, sell the SUV and get the Saturn,
and we begin the task of seeing what we can do--if
anything--to change the route of what we perceive as
being awful. (snip)


Kim, as voters and citizens, we're supposed to have control over the
employment situation in this country. We don't simply because too many
choose to "knuckle under" instead of demanding better. Of course, they
probably don't have that much of a choice as long as most people are
heartless enough to think the solution for those people is to sell
everything, take a menial job, and live in poverty.


Then, report the company to INS. REPORT THEM. If
the company is getting contracts based on their employment
of illegeal aliens, then I am sure the firms they are doing
services for will want to know this. For goodness sake,
REPORT their ass.


I've already filed complaints. Sadly, it just doesn't work that way, Kim.
When it comes to businesses hiring illegal immigrants, government agencies
only take on a few, high profile, cases each year (such as Walmart
recently). Because of that, you could complain until you're blue in the face
and absolutely nothing will come of it. I truly wish it were different, but
that's simply the way it is (which is exactly why so many companies are now
willing to hire illegal immigrants).


Dwight Stewart (W5NET)

http://www.qsl.net/w5net/