"Dwight Stewart" wrote in message
ink.net...
"Kim W5TIT" wrote:
"Dwight Stewart" wrote:
(snip) I suppose you're now going to say immigrant
adults have more personally, better etiquette, and a
greater work ethic, than non-immigrant adults in this
country, which is why immigrant adults, not non-immigrant
adults, work in the restaurants you go to.

Yep, that's exactly what I'm saying. And, just for you and
Jim I'll say this: some.


Your bigotry towards American workers (non-immigrants) is noted.


Uh huh...OK Lar--- I mean Dwight.


However,
we're straying off the subject with way too many personal anecdotes, so
lets
get back to the core of this issue.

Again, I firmly believe the ONLY reason some people won't do some jobs is
because of the wages paid.


And, I believe your right, partly. I don't believe anything is that
concrete, Dwight. I am pretty sure there are lots of people who are like
you describe and I am pretty sure--certain in fact--that there are people
like I describe. Nevertheless, I certainly *don't* believe the immigrant
problem in this country is as bad as you believe.


There are people in this country (non-immigrants)
willing to walk into the containment chamber of a nuclear reactor if the
pay
is good enough. There are people (non-immigrants) willing to walk 500 ft
high steel girders of a building construction site if the pay is good
enough. There are people (non-immigrants) willing to place their lives on
the line to protect you from crime if the pay is good enough. There are
people (non-immigrants) willing to lay their lives on the line to defend
this country if the pay is good enough. In other words, there are people
(non-immigrants) willing to do any job, no matter how bad or how
dangerous,
if the pay is good enough. For you to now say otherwise, and instead
insist
Americans just won't work because they're too lazy or too uppish
(immigrants
workers are needed instead), is a slap in the face of every hard working
American.


Whutevah...


If some of your friends and associates are different and won't work if the
pay is good (which I highly doubt), that says more about the people you
hang
out with than it does about the American worker.


And, it's OK for you to call me a bigot because of my opinion, OK Larr---I
mean Dwight.


The Americans I see all
around me are willing to work. However, the key issue for all of them is
the
wages paid. It costs a lot of money to even be poor in this country today,
Kim.


Yes, it does, Dwight. And I am pretty sure I know more about that than you
do. Just 30 years ago I was a welfare mom with two kids, no car, a deadbeat
dad, was a High School Dropout, and lived in a town of less than 1K people.
My kids were raised on fried rice, rice casseroles that I came up with where
Cream of Mushroom Soup was a staple and meat was more a flavor--one piece
*maybe* two of chicken broke up and thrown into the recipe. Peanut butter
and jelly was often breakfast *and* lunch.

I watched all around me as people got "comfortable" with being bitter and
dismayed and beaten down about where they were. I watched them in my
rear-view mirror as I made decisions I sure enough didn't want to be making
about where I was going to live, what I was going to do for a living--all
the while telling these two kids "everything's OK." And, I watched all
around as people who'd become accustomed to being poor and sad were telling
me I was being a fool to ever think it was going to be any different. They
are probably still there.


Average rent prices are approaching $700 per month. Average utility
prices are approaching $200 per month. Average car and insurance payments,
even for an older used car, are approaching $250 per month. Average food
prices, even for a young couple, are approaching $250 per month. That
doesn't include cloths, medical expenses, gas for the car to get to work,
car repairs, hair cuts, school costs for those who want to better their
lives, and so on. And that certainly doesn't include luxuries or children
(mentioned because some don't think the poor should even have children).


And, I empathize with each and every one of the folks who start out young
today. It's hard--extremely hard. But, you know what? Housekeeping pays
high dollar these days...very high dollar. And, I am not talking about
getting a job with a nitwit hog of a person who has a company paying minimum
wage and getting people involved in the business. I am talking about jobs
like childcare, housekeeping, medical transcription and other computer jobs,
pooper scooper, dog walking, house sitting, all kinds of stuff people let go
right by them every day--because they are too busy being sad.

There's folks like that, Dwight. Yep, you're right. There are folks who
*will* do those jobs. But they are in the minority and how ironic. Because
it is more the minority immigrant population that does those jobs than a lot
of US citizens.


The average minimum wage worker is lucky to bring home $600 per month
after taxes. With that, even a two income family will have to give up some
of the basics of life (a car, a home, food, or something). Needless to
say,
even common sense suggests few people want to work in those low paying
jobs
and would rather hold out as long as possible for better paying jobs. You
seem to interpret that as they're simply too lazy or too uppish to work.


I know all about what the cost of living is, Dwight. And I know it from a
poor perspective and the perspective I am at now. Or, should I say the
perspective of believing nothing will ever change to making my own way to
where I am comfortable? And, if need be, I'll start over again. Hell no, I
wouldn't like it--I'd hate it--but I would do what I gotta do.


Bringing in immigrants to fill those jobs is not the answer. That still
leaves the people described above out of work and looking for jobs.
Indeed,
filling those lower paying jobs with immigrants only increases the glut of
workers seeking slightly better paying jobs, driving wages down for those
jobs too. And the cycle repeats for the next higher paying jobs as workers
already in those slightly better paying jobs seek higher paying work to
escape the glut in workers seeking their jobs. The ripple effect of this
practice is undermining the entire American labor force. In the end, the
inevitable result of all this is a much lower standard of living for all
working class Americans. And those people are not going to be happy
campers,
even less so as they hear some describe them as too lazy or too uppish to
work.


Yes, it is a vicious cycle...one more people need to jump on the bandwagon
about and get ****ed off enough to change. But they won't, Dwight. It's
been this way for years--this is nothing new. Hell, you buy anything from
China lately? You ever said to yourself you're going to stop buying things
from China? BRING IMMIGRANTS IN?????? Hell, stop buying from China. Worry
about the commies coming over here? Hell, stop buying from China.


Increasing wages is the only answer. And if that drives some less
efficient companies out of business, well too bad. There are no guarantees
in this country (as Charles says) and, if the business is at all
worthwhile,
plenty of other, hopefully better managed, companies will quickly spring
up
to take their place.


Dwight Stewart (W5NET)

http://www.qsl.net/w5net/



If your answer is to simply increase wages...you're setting yourself up to
be miserable. Companies are cutting back, trimming the fat, and freezing
wages. And, that is going to be the trend for a few years. The more people
want to deny that 9-11 "didn't affect us," the more they are putting their
heads in the sand. Since 9-11, this country has been trying to recover.
We'll do it...but we were and are a lot more affected than we admit--and
Binnie over there knows it.

Oh, and I note that it's OK--from your perspective--to say "too bad" if your
solution happens to drive some less efficient companies out of business (
your remark above, "And if that drives some less efficient companies out of
business, well too bad.") But you criticize and call me a bigot for my
thoughts along the same lines, from my perspective.

Thanks, Lar---I mean Dwight.

Kim W5TIT

"Kim W5TIT" wrote:

(snip) There's folks like that, Dwight. Yep, you're
right. There are folks who *will* do those jobs. But
they are in the minority and how ironic. Because it is
more the minority immigrant population that does
those jobs than a lot of US citizens.


I give up, Kim. You've convinced yourself American workers are garbage,
and immigrant workers are God's gift to the working world, and absolutely
nothing is going to change your mind. This fits right into the thinking of
many liberals who feel Americans deserve to be poor for all the bad things
they've done, while those poor, downtrodden, immigrants deserve all the
wealth they can get. And, while we sit here debating, wages for low to
medium income workers continue to decline while profits for big business
continues to grow - neither immigrants or a growing number of working
Americans can get decent paying jobs. At the same time, the factories moving
overseas are forcing more and more middle-aged and older workers out of
their jobs, adding to the numbers forced into lower paying jobs. And the
situation only gets increasingly hopeless as more and more people begin to
think like you. Where do you think this is all going to end, Kim? Do you
honestly believe big business is going to stop their efforts to drive down
wages at your doorstep - that this is never going to affect you or yours?
Even small businesses are going to feel the crunch as fewer can afford to
buy their products. If you can't see the inevitable outcome to all this,
you're simply not looking or are too shortsighted to see. And, with that, I
give up as I said before.


Dwight Stewart (W5NET)

http://www.qsl.net/w5net/

"Dwight Stewart" wrote in message
link.net...
"Kim W5TIT" wrote:

(snip) There's folks like that, Dwight. Yep, you're
right. There are folks who *will* do those jobs. But
they are in the minority and how ironic. Because it is
more the minority immigrant population that does
those jobs than a lot of US citizens.


I give up, Kim. You've convinced yourself American workers are garbage,
and immigrant workers are God's gift to the working world, and absolutely
nothing is going to change your mind. This fits right into the thinking of
many liberals who feel Americans deserve to be poor for all the bad things
they've done, while those poor, downtrodden, immigrants deserve all the
wealth they can get. And, while we sit here debating, wages for low to
medium income workers continue to decline while profits for big business
continues to grow - neither immigrants or a growing number of working
Americans can get decent paying jobs. At the same time, the factories
moving
overseas are forcing more and more middle-aged and older workers out of
their jobs, adding to the numbers forced into lower paying jobs. And the
situation only gets increasingly hopeless as more and more people begin to
think like you. Where do you think this is all going to end, Kim? Do you
honestly believe big business is going to stop their efforts to drive down
wages at your doorstep - that this is never going to affect you or yours?
Even small businesses are going to feel the crunch as fewer can afford to
buy their products. If you can't see the inevitable outcome to all this,
you're simply not looking or are too shortsighted to see. And, with that,
I
give up as I said before.


Dwight Stewart (W5NET)

http://www.qsl.net/w5net/



And I give up trying to explain to you that I am affected, Dwight. I work
for and have worked for companies that export jobs out of the United
States--and a good number of employees are people who are here on work
Visas. But, Dwight--I don't have the same fatalist point of view that you
do. This is something that, as I've said, been around for years. Nothing's
changed...it's the ebb and flow of the corporate environment.

And, you know what? Screw you for saying that I think American workers are
garbage!!! Screw you!!! I think people who are fatalistic about the
situation and want to make the situation 100% the fault of US Corporations
and immigrants--illegal and not--are the ones who are garbage. Take that a
smoke it, Dwight.

Kim W5TIT