"Ryan, KC8PMX" wrote in message ...
But its perfectly okay to pay some union bum a ton of wages for doing a
repetitive task, (a skill that same 14 y.o. that passed a ham test could
do) therefore jacking the cost of a product, lets say a car for this
example, to a ridiculous price??? (actually both the fast food worker and
the person on the line at the factory ARE BOTH doing repetitive tasks....)

Hold on a sec....

"union bum"?

The basic concept that Dwight is talking about is a "living wage" -
meaning jobs that pay enough in wages and benefits to permit people to
live above the poverty line *without* government help. Yes, paying a
living wage makes products and services cost more, but it also removes
people from the govt. support system.

Some say "the marketplace" should set wages. But "the marketplace" is
tilted by a bunch of factors, such as the exportation of jobs and the
importation of workers.

The "living wage" concept and reality are largely a result of
organized labor unions leveling the playing field a bit by unifying
the many workers in negotiating with the relatively few employees. The
really smart employers learned to treat their workers well enough that
they wouldn't unionize.

Look at what working conditions were like in various industries
100-150 years ago, before organized labor had any real power.

Believe it or not, there are alot more people out there trying to survive on
the poverty level wages. Based strictly on my local region, that would be
any job under 9-10 dollars per hour before taxes and if any, benefits. And
unfortunately some of these people are NOT counted, in the unemployment or
other job related statistics, if they are not participating in the various
government programs like the employment security commision that Michigan
has... (think its called MichiganWorks)

Yep. $20,000/yr isn't much at all anymore in many parts of the
country. Not to raise a family, anyway.

As for the $15 burrito and coke at Taco Bell, think about this:

At least here in EPA, we have a decent selection of independent diners
as an alternative to the fast food chains. The food in them is not
much more expensive than the chains, and usually better for you. The
workers in those places make at least as much as the fast food chains.
One reason for their survival is that they don't spend bazillions on
advertising. Another is local loyalty of customers.

So what's the answer, Dwight - Ryan - Kim?

73 de Jim, N2EY

"N2EY" wrote in message
om...
"Ryan, KC8PMX" wrote in message
...
But its perfectly okay to pay some union bum a ton of wages for doing a
repetitive task, (a skill that same 14 y.o. that passed a ham test
could
do) therefore jacking the cost of a product, lets say a car for this
example, to a ridiculous price??? (actually both the fast food worker
and
the person on the line at the factory ARE BOTH doing repetitive
tasks....)

Hold on a sec....

"union bum"?

The basic concept that Dwight is talking about is a "living wage" -
meaning jobs that pay enough in wages and benefits to permit people to
live above the poverty line *without* government help. Yes, paying a
living wage makes products and services cost more, but it also removes
people from the govt. support system.

Some say "the marketplace" should set wages. But "the marketplace" is
tilted by a bunch of factors, such as the exportation of jobs and the
importation of workers.

The "living wage" concept and reality are largely a result of
organized labor unions leveling the playing field a bit by unifying
the many workers in negotiating with the relatively few employees. The
really smart employers learned to treat their workers well enough that
they wouldn't unionize.

Look at what working conditions were like in various industries
100-150 years ago, before organized labor had any real power.

Believe it or not, there are alot more people out there trying to
survive on
the poverty level wages. Based strictly on my local region, that would
be
any job under 9-10 dollars per hour before taxes and if any, benefits.
And
unfortunately some of these people are NOT counted, in the unemployment
or
other job related statistics, if they are not participating in the
various
government programs like the employment security commision that Michigan
has... (think its called MichiganWorks)

Yep. $20,000/yr isn't much at all anymore in many parts of the
country. Not to raise a family, anyway.

As for the $15 burrito and coke at Taco Bell, think about this:

At least here in EPA, we have a decent selection of independent diners
as an alternative to the fast food chains. The food in them is not
much more expensive than the chains, and usually better for you. The
workers in those places make at least as much as the fast food chains.
One reason for their survival is that they don't spend bazillions on
advertising. Another is local loyalty of customers.

So what's the answer, Dwight - Ryan - Kim?

73 de Jim, N2EY

I'm out of it...speculation won't solve a thing and I choose not to be as
depressed and bitter and hateful as others...

Kim W5TIT

"Kim" wrote in message ...
"N2EY" wrote in message
om...
"Ryan, KC8PMX" wrote in message
...
But its perfectly okay to pay some union bum a ton of wages for doing a
repetitive task, (a skill that same 14 y.o. that passed a ham test
could
do) therefore jacking the cost of a product, lets say a car for this
example, to a ridiculous price??? (actually both the fast food worker
and
the person on the line at the factory ARE BOTH doing repetitive
tasks....)

Hold on a sec....

"union bum"?

The basic concept that Dwight is talking about is a "living wage" -
meaning jobs that pay enough in wages and benefits to permit people to
live above the poverty line *without* government help. Yes, paying a
living wage makes products and services cost more, but it also removes
people from the govt. support system.

Some say "the marketplace" should set wages. But "the marketplace" is
tilted by a bunch of factors, such as the exportation of jobs and the
importation of workers.

The "living wage" concept and reality are largely a result of
organized labor unions leveling the playing field a bit by unifying
the many workers in negotiating with the relatively few employees. The
really smart employers learned to treat their workers well enough that
they wouldn't unionize.

Look at what working conditions were like in various industries
100-150 years ago, before organized labor had any real power.

Believe it or not, there are alot more people out there trying to
survive on
the poverty level wages. Based strictly on my local region, that would
be
any job under 9-10 dollars per hour before taxes and if any, benefits.
And
unfortunately some of these people are NOT counted, in the unemployment
or
other job related statistics, if they are not participating in the
various
government programs like the employment security commision that Michigan
has... (think its called MichiganWorks)

Yep. $20,000/yr isn't much at all anymore in many parts of the
country. Not to raise a family, anyway.

As for the $15 burrito and coke at Taco Bell, think about this:

At least here in EPA, we have a decent selection of independent diners
as an alternative to the fast food chains. The food in them is not
much more expensive than the chains, and usually better for you. The
workers in those places make at least as much as the fast food chains.
One reason for their survival is that they don't spend bazillions on
advertising. Another is local loyalty of customers.

So what's the answer, Dwight - Ryan - Kim?

73 de Jim, N2EY

I'm out of it...speculation won't solve a thing and I choose not to be as
depressed and bitter and hateful as others...

Kim,

I hope you weren't referring to me....

73 de Jim, N2EY

"N2EY" wrote in message
om...
"Kim" wrote in message
...
"N2EY" wrote in message

At least here in EPA, we have a decent selection of independent diners
as an alternative to the fast food chains. The food in them is not
much more expensive than the chains, and usually better for you. The
workers in those places make at least as much as the fast food chains.
One reason for their survival is that they don't spend bazillions on
advertising. Another is local loyalty of customers.

So what's the answer, Dwight - Ryan - Kim?

73 de Jim, N2EY

I'm out of it...speculation won't solve a thing and I choose not to be
as
depressed and bitter and hateful as others...

Kim,

I hope you weren't referring to me....

73 de Jim, N2EY

Oh goodness...no. I was specifically referring to Dwight...

Kim W5TIT

"Kim W5TIT" wrote:
"N2EY" wrote:
"Kim" wrote:
I'm out of it...speculation won't solve a thing and I
choose not to be as depressed and bitter and
hateful as others...

I hope you weren't referring to me....

Oh goodness...no. I was specifically referring to Dwight.


Grow up, Kim. If you can't handle spirited discussion and debate, then
you're clearly in the wrong place because most of these newsgroups were
created for exactly that - not pleasant, dainty, little discussions that
never offend your delicate, child-like, sensibilities. Regardless, if you
post obstinate and contrary opinions in these newsgroups, then you should
expect, and be prepared for, obstinate and contrary responses (without
crying about it for days afterwards). Whatever the case, I wasn't put on
this Earth to cater to your sensibilities, so will only consider that to a
limited extent when responding to what you post (and it will be a cold day
in Hades before I consider it at all when you attack me personally).


Dwight Stewart (W5NET)

http://www.qsl.net/w5net/

"Dwight Stewart" wrote in message
link.net...
"Kim W5TIT" wrote:
"N2EY" wrote:
"Kim" wrote:
I'm out of it...speculation won't solve a thing and I
choose not to be as depressed and bitter and
hateful as others...

I hope you weren't referring to me....

Oh goodness...no. I was specifically referring to Dwight.


Grow up, Kim. If you can't handle spirited discussion and debate, then
you're clearly in the wrong place because most of these newsgroups were
created for exactly that - not pleasant, dainty, little discussions that
never offend your delicate, child-like, sensibilities. Regardless, if you
post obstinate and contrary opinions in these newsgroups, then you should
expect, and be prepared for, obstinate and contrary responses (without
crying about it for days afterwards). Whatever the case, I wasn't put on
this Earth to cater to your sensibilities, so will only consider that to a
limited extent when responding to what you post (and it will be a cold day
in Hades before I consider it at all when you attack me personally).


Dwight Stewart (W5NET)

http://www.qsl.net/w5net/



Dwight in training for the Larry Roll Project...

Kim W5TIT

"N2EY" wrote in message
om...
"Ryan, KC8PMX" wrote in message
...
But its perfectly okay to pay some union bum a ton of wages for doing a
repetitive task, (a skill that same 14 y.o. that passed a ham test
could
do) therefore jacking the cost of a product, lets say a car for this
example, to a ridiculous price??? (actually both the fast food worker
and
the person on the line at the factory ARE BOTH doing repetitive
tasks....)

Hold on a sec....

"union bum"?

Yep... there are a ton of them in this state..... collect a "phat" wage ($20
per hour or more) for a job a kid could do, brag about only working 2 of the
8 hours in a shift, and admit to stealing and other fraudulant
practices..... .yeah, those are bums... Not all union workers are bums, but
there are alot that are.


The basic concept that Dwight is talking about is a "living wage" -
meaning jobs that pay enough in wages and benefits to permit people to
live above the poverty line *without* government help. Yes, paying a
living wage makes products and services cost more, but it also removes
people from the govt. support system.

So.... basically, one way or another people have to pay for it, be it in
higher service/product costs or paying in taxes for a government program.



Some say "the marketplace" should set wages. But "the marketplace" is
tilted by a bunch of factors, such as the exportation of jobs and the
importation of workers.

Yes, that is what is called an idealism, but in reality it doesn't work that
way. Let's look at my county for example..... Republican owners of
businesses and places to rent charge considerably higher for products,
services and housing. These are also in most of the cases the employers in
the area. For example, on average, a single bedroom apartment cannot be
found for less than $350-400. That does not even include utilities. The
average wage around here, what is considered the alleged "living" or minimum
wage is between $5.25-6.00 per hour. Now, do the math on that. The first
of the normal 2 paychecks (paid every 2 weeks) each month barely even
covers the rent, let alone the utilities. Factor in transportation of any
means, and basic food needs, and that exceeds the second check. This does
not include for any savings, clothing or medicine purchases and of course
nothing in the "entertainment" category on the spreadsheet.
That is why alot of people around here are forced to work two jobs. Problem
there is, there is no time left over for family or even better, trying to
take classes to get a degree to get out of the ruts. Typically in my area
as well, certain market indicators such as milk, bread, gasoline etc, is at
least 10-20 percent higher than surrounding counties. Basically they want
you to work for as little as possible, but charge ya up the ying-yang for
everything. Guess that is the American way eh?





The "living wage" concept and reality are largely a result of
organized labor unions leveling the playing field a bit by unifying
the many workers in negotiating with the relatively few employees. The
really smart employers learned to treat their workers well enough that
they wouldn't unionize.

Look at what working conditions were like in various industries
100-150 years ago, before organized labor had any real power.

Just like they are for non-unionized labor now! hihi



Believe it or not, there are alot more people out there trying to
survive on
the poverty level wages. Based strictly on my local region, that would
be
any job under 9-10 dollars per hour before taxes and if any, benefits.
And
unfortunately some of these people are NOT counted, in the unemployment
or
other job related statistics, if they are not participating in the
various
government programs like the employment security commision that Michigan
has... (think its called MichiganWorks)

Yep. $20,000/yr isn't much at all anymore in many parts of the
country. Not to raise a family, anyway.

Or for a single person either...... that 20,000 grand is PRE-TAX and
PRE-BENEFIT (if any) and can quickly become as low as 13,000-15,000 dollars
depending on the circumstances.



As for the $15 burrito and coke at Taco Bell, think about this:

At least here in EPA, we have a decent selection of independent diners
as an alternative to the fast food chains. The food in them is not
much more expensive than the chains, and usually better for you. The
workers in those places make at least as much as the fast food chains.
One reason for their survival is that they don't spend bazillions on
advertising. Another is local loyalty of customers.

So what's the answer, Dwight - Ryan - Kim?
\

I don't assume to have all of the answers, but I am sure that you can go
through just about any company or organization and thin out the dead-wood.
People who just are not returning equivalent value for the service they are
supposed to provide as an employee. There is a case of 3 people who are
"riding the clock out" in my full time employment place of work. And
compared to the remainder of the department they are making more than twice
our wages for similar/same work but just have been here a while. With those
three people to finally retire or move on, that would allow for at least 4-5
more people to replace them, that will ACTUALLY WORK, and still allow for
the rest of the department to get a $1.00 per hour raise, and STILL SAVE
SOME MONEY on overall department wages. The math has been figured out here
on this and it is true....

The other answer is for employers to finally see the value in helping the
employee with training/education. If an employer is credible enough, the
employee will stay with that employer with the new training they have
recieved.

Even though people want to believe otherwise, there are more and more people
having to, and trying to survive on what were supposed to be considered
"high school kid" jobs.



--
Ryan KC8PMX

Never take life seriously. Nobody gets out alive anyway.

"Ryan, KC8PMX" wrote in message
...

The
average wage around here, what is considered the alleged "living" or
minimum
wage is between $5.25-6.00 per hour.

Keep in mind that the minimum wage was NEVER intended to be a "living" wage.

Dee D. Flint, N8UZE

In article , "Dee D. Flint"
writes:

"Ryan, KC8PMX" wrote in message
...

The
average wage around here, what is considered the alleged "living" or
minimum
wage is between $5.25-6.00 per hour.

Keep in mind that the minimum wage was NEVER intended to be a "living" wage.

It wasn't? I'd be interested in a reference on that.

I think what we're really seeing is inflation outpacing the minimum wage.

Fun fact: In 1976 I started a job as a degreed engineer at the princely sum of
about $12,000/yr - about $6 an hour. About minimum wage today, but back then
the prices of most things (particularly housing and transportation) was so much
lower that it was a lot of money - to me, anyway.

73 de Jim, N2EY

"N2EY" wrote in message
...
In article , "Dee D.
Flint"
writes:

"Ryan, KC8PMX" wrote in message
...

The
average wage around here, what is considered the alleged "living" or
minimum
wage is between $5.25-6.00 per hour.

Keep in mind that the minimum wage was NEVER intended to be a "living"
wage.

It wasn't? I'd be interested in a reference on that.

I think what we're really seeing is inflation outpacing the minimum wage.

Fun fact: In 1976 I started a job as a degreed engineer at the princely
sum of
about $12,000/yr - about $6 an hour. About minimum wage today, but back
then
the prices of most things (particularly housing and transportation) was so
much
lower that it was a lot of money - to me, anyway.

73 de Jim, N2EY


And at that time minimum wage was about $1.50 per hour. It wasn't a living
wage then either. Entry level jobs have never provided the income to
support a family. Anyone that I have ever known in my lifetime (52 years)
that made minimum wage either lived with their parents or other relatives, a
group of roommates, or had a working spouse even back when I was a child.
No adult male that I knew stayed in a minimum wage job any longer than it
took to find something else because they could not pay groc, rent, and
transportation on that. It has never been high enough to do so.

Wages versus costs is all relative. You have to look at how many hours it
takes to buy something. The majority of items but not all take fewer hours
of work to purchase than they did in 1976. The cost of electronics is down
in terms of hours to buy. The cost of houses is about the same in terms of
hours.

Dee D. Flint, N8UZE