(Bert Craig) wrote in
om:

Alun wrote in message
. ..
(Bert Craig) wrote in
om:

Alun wrote in message
. ..
"Bert Craig" wrote in
t:

"Rupert" wrote in message
ink.net...
Len Over 21 wrote:

As of 6 PM EST on 11 November 2003, the number of ECFS
documents on public view a

What would be interesting is to find out how many are for the
change, and how many want to keep the code.

Me too. All this roundabout bravo sierra could be bypassed if
there was a ballot sent to all approx. 700,000 U.S. licensed
hams. As long as quorum is met, it's on! This concept (Democracy)
frightens the bejesus out of many folks who claim to speak for
those not yet licensed.

But that's an empty argument. Get licensed and vote, tah dah! The
big bad "barrier" does not preclude anyone from getting their
no-code Tech ticket and executing a vote.

Simply announce a "record date" by which one must be licensed (To
give those "yet to be licensed a fair shot at a voice in the
process.) and send a ballot out to all those licensed "of
record." Makes too much sense and requires some effort. IOW,
against the contemporary trend.

73 de Bert
WA2SI




Those who have not obtained a licence because of the code trest are
just as entitled to express their opinion to the FCC as you or I.

I agree, Alun. The Technician license requires no code test.

73 de Bert
WA2SI


True, but some don't take it because they only want HF, not because
they couldn't answer the questions. All I'm saying is that they should
have a vote in any poll.

73 de Alun, N3KIP

Hmm, sounds like a motivational issue. If you want HF, the road to the
General and Extra begins with the Technician exam...no matter what. If
they're truly "interested" in participating in participating in the
process of this change, you'd think the Tech exam would be...wait a
sec, lemme stop. I just remembered whom we're talking about. Kinda
sad. :-(

No, Alun. I really DO believe that Amateur Radio operators should
define Amateur Radio. What a concept, eh?

73 de Bert
WA2SI


Well, I guess that's a religeous issue, so I won't be able to convince you
otherwise.

If you look me up you'll see I'm an Extra, and you'll be able to figure
out that I passed 20 wpm. What you won't see, is that I've been a ham
since 1980, not 1992, as I'm not originally from this country.

However, ham radio is not a job or a vocation, just a hobby. I welcome the
unmotivated as much as I would welcome anyone else. Why shouldn't they
have fun too? If someone wants HF and doesn't want to learn code, why
should they bother to study for a VHF and above licence, when they could
be scuba diving or building model railroads or what have you? (Not hobbies
of mine, personally, but whatever turns you on). I know this is sacrilege
to true beleivers, but so what?

The notion that only hams should decide the future of ham radio is just
that, a notion. I can absolutely guarantee that it is not a point of view
shared by the FCC, and it makes little sense to me either. At the very
least all prospective hams have a vested interest, irregardless of the
reasons they don't have a licence, reasonable or otherwise. I'm sure the
FCC would cast their net a lot wider than that.

73 de Alun, N3KIP

In article , Alun
writes:

However, ham radio is not a job or a vocation, just a hobby.

For many hams that's true.

But does that mean there should be no standards or requirements to join?

I welcome the
unmotivated as much as I would welcome anyone else. Why shouldn't they
have fun too?

OK, fine.

What do you think of this idea, Alun:

Require all new hams to pass the Extra written in 10 years or less or they get
tossed off the amateur bands.

Is that a good idea or a bad idea?

If someone wants HF and doesn't want to learn code, why
should they bother to study for a VHF and above licence, when they could
be scuba diving or building model railroads or what have you? (Not hobbies
of mine, personally, but whatever turns you on). I know this is sacrilege
to true beleivers, but so what?

OK, fine.

If someone wants to operate radios rather than build them, why must they learn
a lot of theory stuff that they are not interested in? To suit someone else's
idea of what amateur radio should be?

Why is a Technician Plus class licensee qualified to do anything allowed by the
rules on 2 meters, but not on 20 meters? What special knowledge is imparted by
the General and Extra class written tests?

The notion that only hams should decide the future of ham radio is just
that, a notion. I can absolutely guarantee that it is not a point of view
shared by the FCC, and it makes little sense to me either. At the very
least all prospective hams have a vested interest, irregardless of the
reasons they don't have a licence, reasonable or otherwise. I'm sure the
FCC would cast their net a lot wider than that.

Actually the FCC won't cast their net at all. They don't do polls or surveys -
just comments, petitions and proposals.

How many comments did the last restructuring get - 2500? Almost all of them
were from already-licensed hams. Less than 1/2 of 1%, too.

73 de Jim, N2EY

"N2EY" wrote

What special knowledge is imparted by
the General and Extra class written tests?

The tests aren't designed to 'impart' knowledge. They are designed to
determine if an applicant meets some predetermined minimum qualifications
for the level of license being sought. (I'd have thought you knew that.)



What do you think of this idea, Alun:

Require all new hams to pass the Extra written in 10
years or less or they get tossed off the amateur bands.

I don't know what Alun thinks, but I think it is a superb idea. In fact,
I've suggested it to the regulators.

73, de Hans, K0HB

(N2EY) wrote in
:

In article , Alun
writes:

However, ham radio is not a job or a vocation, just a hobby.

For many hams that's true.

But does that mean there should be no standards or requirements to
join?


Not atall. I think the current theory tests are reasonable

I welcome the
unmotivated as much as I would welcome anyone else. Why shouldn't they
have fun too?

OK, fine.

What do you think of this idea, Alun:

Require all new hams to pass the Extra written in 10 years or less or
they get tossed off the amateur bands.

Is that a good idea or a bad idea?

It's a pretty silly idea. If we can let someone on the air with a Tech
licence today, then why not 11 years later? Time limitations have always
been artificial. I may think it's a waste if someone stays a Tech for
decades. I will almost certainly encourage them to upgrade, but I don't
think their licence should be cancelled.


If someone wants HF and doesn't want to learn code, why
should they bother to study for a VHF and above licence, when they
could be scuba diving or building model railroads or what have you?
(Not hobbies of mine, personally, but whatever turns you on). I know
this is sacrilege to true beleivers, but so what?

OK, fine.

If someone wants to operate radios rather than build them, why must
they learn a lot of theory stuff that they are not interested in? To
suit someone else's idea of what amateur radio should be?


They can actually do that on CB, FRS, etc. I have no problem with that. Of
course, there are tight limitations on what they can do, designed to
ensure that they are harmless with their lack of knowledge, and
unfortunately often ignored on 27 MHz.

Why is a Technician Plus class licensee qualified to do anything
allowed by the rules on 2 meters, but not on 20 meters?

Because they know a bit less, and their signals will mostly only be heard
locally, hence limiting the potential effects. Granted that the additional
privileges of the Tech+ are not entirely consistent with that theory.

What special
knowledge is imparted by the General and Extra class written tests?

The General doesn't impart much in that way. The Extra does, however
require a better knowledge of radio theory.

I'm not sure that the present licence classes are very well tailored, but
politically it could be hard to change.

Personally, I'm in favour of a two tier system, where those who pass the
easier test stay above 30 MHz, or at least above 28 and maybe with access
to 1.8, but I don't actually think it's going to happen quite like that.
Too much inertia.


The notion that only hams should decide the future of ham radio is just
that, a notion. I can absolutely guarantee that it is not a point of
view shared by the FCC, and it makes little sense to me either. At the
very least all prospective hams have a vested interest, irregardless of
the reasons they don't have a licence, reasonable or otherwise. I'm
sure the FCC would cast their net a lot wider than that.

Actually the FCC won't cast their net at all. They don't do polls or
surveys - just comments, petitions and proposals.


Agreed

I was just commenting why I don't think a 'hams only' poll is the right
idea

How many comments did the last restructuring get - 2500? Almost all of
them were from already-licensed hams. Less than 1/2 of 1%, too.

73 de Jim, N2EY


It is, however, important that others could file a comment if they wanted
to.

73 de Alun, N3KIP

"N2EY" wrote in message
...
In article , Alun
Actually the FCC won't cast their net at all. They don't do polls or
surveys -
just comments, petitions and proposals.

How many comments did the last restructuring get - 2500? Almost all of
them
were from already-licensed hams. Less than 1/2 of 1%, too.

Actually one could consider the opportunity to post comments as functionally
equivalent to a poll. Anyone can file a comment, licensed or not, citizen
or not. That's as democratic as it gets.

All interested persons have the opportunity to know that these issues are up
for comment since they are listed on publicly available government pages.

Dee D. Flint, N8UZE

In article , Alun
writes:

(Bert Craig) wrote in
. com:

Alun wrote in message
. ..
(Bert Craig) wrote in
om:

Alun wrote in message
. ..
"Bert Craig" wrote in
t:

"Rupert" wrote in message
ink.net...
Len Over 21 wrote:

As of 6 PM EST on 11 November 2003, the number of ECFS
documents on public view a

What would be interesting is to find out how many are for the
change, and how many want to keep the code.

Me too. All this roundabout bravo sierra could be bypassed if
there was a ballot sent to all approx. 700,000 U.S. licensed
hams. As long as quorum is met, it's on! This concept (Democracy)
frightens the bejesus out of many folks who claim to speak for
those not yet licensed.

But that's an empty argument. Get licensed and vote, tah dah! The
big bad "barrier" does not preclude anyone from getting their
no-code Tech ticket and executing a vote.

Simply announce a "record date" by which one must be licensed (To
give those "yet to be licensed a fair shot at a voice in the
process.) and send a ballot out to all those licensed "of
record." Makes too much sense and requires some effort. IOW,
against the contemporary trend.

73 de Bert
WA2SI




Those who have not obtained a licence because of the code trest are
just as entitled to express their opinion to the FCC as you or I.

I agree, Alun. The Technician license requires no code test.

73 de Bert
WA2SI


True, but some don't take it because they only want HF, not because
they couldn't answer the questions. All I'm saying is that they should
have a vote in any poll.

73 de Alun, N3KIP

Hmm, sounds like a motivational issue. If you want HF, the road to the
General and Extra begins with the Technician exam...no matter what. If
they're truly "interested" in participating in participating in the
process of this change, you'd think the Tech exam would be...wait a
sec, lemme stop. I just remembered whom we're talking about. Kinda
sad. :-(

No, Alun. I really DO believe that Amateur Radio operators should
define Amateur Radio. What a concept, eh?

73 de Bert
WA2SI


Well, I guess that's a religeous issue, so I won't be able to convince you
otherwise.

If you look me up you'll see I'm an Extra, and you'll be able to figure
out that I passed 20 wpm. What you won't see, is that I've been a ham
since 1980, not 1992, as I'm not originally from this country.

Alun, with all due respect, such experience ist VERBOTEN in this
chat room.

The requirement to exist in this chat room requires a struct obediance
to morsemanship, tradition forever rooted in old ways back before all
the morseodist regulars ever existed.

However, ham radio is not a job or a vocation, just a hobby.

In this chat room, the REGULARS maintain a LIFESTYLE of devotion,
obediance to love honor and obey amateur radio in all its past glory.

LIFESTYLES take precedence over logic, common sense, and
anything else not associated with amateur radio (except Michael
Jackson, foreign policy, overall economic decisions by government
and partisan politics).

Ham radio to the regulars is far more than a vocation. Vocations
in radio are to be pejorated, denigrated, spat upon, reviled, made fun
of and other niceties of the TURF where chat room homies consider
their 'hood.

There are NO First Amendment "rights" for chat room homies.
Their only constitution is that of the ARRL. E pluribus Sumner..

I welcome the
unmotivated as much as I would welcome anyone else. Why shouldn't they
have fun too? If someone wants HF and doesn't want to learn code, why
should they bother to study for a VHF and above licence, when they could
be scuba diving or building model railroads or what have you? (Not hobbies
of mine, personally, but whatever turns you on). I know this is sacrilege
to true beleivers, but so what?

So, Alun, such heretical statements against the True Beliefs of the
morseodist chat room homies are, and will be, reviled, castigated,
denigrated, and shown the door with an angry last phrase of "don't
let it hit your ass on the way out!"

THIS venue is the chat room homies' TURF, Alun. Territorial imperative.

None can venture into this place unless they are of Groupthink,
secure in their Beliefs of the Group.

The notion that only hams should decide the future of ham radio is just
that, a notion.

NOT here. This is morseodist TURF, their neighborhood. NONE may
challenge morseodist groupthink. NONE.

I can absolutely guarantee that it is not a point of view
shared by the FCC, and it makes little sense to me either.

Heresy.

All know that ham radio is governed by the BoD at Newington.

So it shall always be.

Amen.

dit dit

(Len Over 21) wrote in message ...
In article , Alun
writes:

I can absolutely guarantee that it is not a point of view
shared by the FCC, and it makes little sense to me either.

Heresy.

All know that ham radio is governed by the BoD at Newington.

So it shall always be.

Amen.

dit dit

Praise be to Hiram.

didit

Brian wrote:

(Len Over 21) wrote in message ...
In article , Alun
writes:

I can absolutely guarantee that it is not a point of view
shared by the FCC, and it makes little sense to me either.

Heresy.

All know that ham radio is governed by the BoD at Newington.

So it shall always be.

Amen.

dit dit

Praise be to Hiram.

didit

Always nice to have an affirmation from Len's Little Electrolyte.

Dave K8MN

Len Over 21 wrote:

In article , Alun
writes:

Well, I guess that's a religeous issue, so I won't be able to convince you
otherwise.

If you look me up you'll see I'm an Extra, and you'll be able to figure
out that I passed 20 wpm. What you won't see, is that I've been a ham
since 1980, not 1992, as I'm not originally from this country.

Alun, with all due respect, such experience ist VERBOTEN in this
chat room.

Len, with all the respect that you feel you're due, this still isn't a
chat room.

The requirement to exist in this chat room requires a struct obediance
to morsemanship, tradition forever rooted in old ways back before all
the morseodist regulars ever existed.

That flies in the face of evidence that there are a wide number of views
expressed here. Once again, this isn't a chat room.

However, ham radio is not a job or a vocation, just a hobby.

Hobby, avocation, interest, passion--it still boils down to the fact
that you aren't involved in it.

In this chat room, the REGULARS maintain a LIFESTYLE of devotion,
obediance to love honor and obey amateur radio in all its past glory.

This isn't a chat room and I submit that you have no way of knowing what
regulars who post here do in amateur radio. You don't have a close
friendship with any of them and you aren't connected to amateur radio.
By the way, aren't YOU a regular here?

LIFESTYLES take precedence over logic, common sense, and
anything else not associated with amateur radio (except Michael
Jackson, foreign policy, overall economic decisions by government
and partisan politics).

It would be interesting to see you come up with proof of the LIFESTYLES
claim or of your peculiar ideas about logic, common sense, etc. If
logic and common sense prevailed, you'd likely not haunt this newgroup
at all.

Ham radio to the regulars is far more than a vocation.

Excuse me, aren't you a regular? Do you believe that ham radio is more
than a vocation? Has anyone else here told you that they believe it?

Vocations
in radio are to be pejorated, denigrated, spat upon, reviled, made fun
of and other niceties of the TURF where chat room homies consider
their 'hood.

Now you're blowing smoke. I can't remember anyone taking shots at my
voacation in communications except YOU. So the guy complaining about
others not respecting his work in radio is the same guy insulting my
work in radio. Isn't that precious?

Good old Len "Do As I say and not as I do" Anderson!

Dave K8MN

(Len Over 21) wrote in message ...

Vocations
in radio are to be pejorated, denigrated, spat upon, reviled, made fun
of and other niceties of the TURF where chat room homies consider
their 'hood.

You mean like this sort of thing, Len?

BEGIN GOOGLE QUOTE

From: (Lenof21)
Subject: Morse monkeys are the worst!
Date: 2000/03/28
Message-ID:
References:
Organization: AOL http://www.aol.com
Newsgroups: rec.radio.amateur.policy
X-Admin:


In article , (Jeffrey Herman)
writes:

Jim wrote:
(Jeffrey Herman) wrote:

Gee, I was originally WA6QIJ (from '76). Two-by-three calls *can* be an
OTer's call.
Jeff KH6O (formerly WA6QIJ WH6AEQ NH6IL KH2PZ KH6OO WH6U)

Yeah, Jeff. But you're different. You talk the talk, but you don't
walk the walk......
73, Jim KH2D

I don't "walk the walk," eh? Try 12 hours on, 12 hours off for four
years straight, copying CW. 12 and 16 MHz in the left earphone, and 22
and 26 MHz in the right during the day, or 4 and 6 in the left, and 8
and 12 in the right at night -- the Collins receivers automatically
scanning the calling segments in each of those bands.

Pile-ups? How about one every six hours around the clock -- hundreds of
ships calling so as to pass their time-sensitive WX observations; at
the same time let's not forget that several ships are standing by with
distress situations -- medical emergencies, mechanical difficulties,
engine room fires, men overboard, shifted cargo / listing due to heavy
seas and taking on water. You'd wet your pants sitting one hour of a
typical shift. It wasn't a contest where you could turn off the radio and
take a nap if it got too stressful -- this was the real life stuff --
lives being lost or saved.

That's all very nice and dramatic but this was the United States
Coast Guard, right? The same USCG that gave you food, lodging,
shelter, and free clothes that you could wet in as needed? The
same USCG that taught you morse code cognition? It wasn't
amateur radio, was it?

Jeff, the time for demanding Medals for Meritorious Service in
the USCG is past for you. That was not amateur radio, it was
PROFESSIONAL radio. You were paid for what you did (in
several ways). It was your JOB. I'm sure that the USCG did
not put you on watch if you couldn't cut it. I don't see how
all that makes you some Number One Ichiban HAM Honcho
NOW.

HF CW too much for you? Okay, sit the evening MF CW watch, instead.
500 kHz in the left phone, 499 in the right (even you're bright enough
to figure out why). What's that? An Auto-Alarm? Don't wet your pants
again, Jim, just realize that those twelve four-second dashes with
one-second pauses are setting off alarm bells on board every ship
in the Pacific within radio range -- the ship's in grave distress,
breaking up in heavy seas. Imagine the intensity of a storm that
would rip a ship in half. Have you ever heard what a transmitter
sounds like when the radio room gets flooded with sea water? It
emits a scream-like sound -- here are the final words the RO was
sending to me at the moment his transmitter screamed:

SOS NMO DE D*** HV TO LEAVE SHIP NOW TU OM FER high pitched whine

That's where the log entry ends.

Transmitters don't "scream" Jeff. They are inanimate things that
run on electricity. When the radio room on that unfortunate ship
flooded, many things could have temporarily put the transmitter
on full Continuous Wave and also to shift frequency slightly.
The "scream" you heard, if it was not in your head alone, could
have been a true CW with a frequency shift just enough to make
it sound something like a "scream."

Now sit there, Jim, and try your best to comprehend that the man
you were just in QSO with has drowned; he was one of the last men
aboard the ship -- most of the others had taken to lifeboats.

You were safe on shore, listening to a radio...provided by the
USCG, the same military service that provided you with food,
lodging, shelter, clothes (to wet in), and a modest monetary
stipend each month for your JOB. I'll bet you even got Rank
with that USCG service.

Meanwhile, in time NOW, the last officer in charge has only
to start the GMDSS...which will send distress call AND the
position of the sinking ship. As accurate as possible without
having to wet pants or make some heroic, dramatic act out
of it. No "screaming" transmitters.

Maybe the voice position is more to your level of ability. Now don't
be overwhelmed -- you'll have to listen to about 30 voice channels:
2182 kHz, 2670 kHz, the 4, 6, 8, 12, 16, and 22 high seas maritime
and aeronautical SSB channels, and four remote VHF sites, with each
site piping in marine channels 6, 12, 16, 22, and 23. Don't worry,
each of the 30 speakers has a little LED which will flash so you'll
know which transmitter to key up to answer someone's call. Let's
see how good you are at juggling: You have a sinking motorboat on
Kauai ch. 16 with too many family members and not enough life jackets
-- listen to those screams in the background, Jim. You'll have to
phone the air-station to launch a helo and phone CG station Kauai to
launch their 41 footer, all the while extracting as much info from
the downing family as possible. What now? The Maui ch.16 speaker has
someone yelling for help -- he's aground on a reef; phone Maui fire
department so they can launch their helo and rescue boat. Whoops -- now
you've got a ship on 12 MHz SSB with a medical emergency -- crewman with a
burst appendicitis; get USPHS on the phone and set up a phone patch
between the duty doctor and the ship. Now you've got the helo and 41
footer on channel 23 asking you to take their radio guard while they're
enroute to the drowning family. Uh oh -- the two-tone SSB Auto Alarm on
2182; oh, it's just the drunk Mexican fishermen again, playing with their
radios and singing to each other; but don't touch that volume control --
you'll have to listen to their singing all night long.

What was your comment again?

....you knew the job was dangerous when you took it...

As I said, the time for Medals For Meritorious Radio Service in
the USCG is past for you, Jeff. You were safe on shore, no
lifeboats needed, and, when your watch was over, you could
go off duty, hit the bunk, or chow down on USCG food after
changing your pants.

Yeah, Jeff. But you're different. You talk the talk, but you don't
walk the walk......
73, Jim KH2D

You're right, Jim, I didn't walk any walk; I ran a marathon each
shift, a marathon that would have left you exhausted at the *starting*
line.

Thank you Superham, once more you've saved Metropolis.

Of course, if you want some "comparisons," you can always
hang around a TRACON sometime at a busy Center if
radio "marathons" are your cuppa. Plenty "runners" in that
radio "marathon," a whole room full plus lots in the sky,
all doing things on voice. If there be "screams," then
they can be heard on cockpit voice recorders.

Enjoy your little walk, Jim. And change your wet pants.

Jeff KH6O

Jeff, you've never been under Incoming, have you? While
trying to get return artillery support on a radio while your
ears, your whole body is numbed by HE infall on your
position? Most folks in that position don't wet their
pants...every sphincter tightens up, ears go deaf, eyes
close tight, and every breath may be the last.

I just helped plant my bro-in-law, another veteran.
Why don't you quit the shore station histrionics and go
back to ancient radio history. It will ease your troubled
mind...and keep your pants dry.

Len Anderson
ex-RA16408336


END GOOGLE QUOTE