"Dee D. Flint" wrote-

I repeat the words in 97.1a amount only to a recognition of the fact
that we
do public service and encouragement to us to continue. It is not an
authorization to do public service. We need no authorization
whatsoever to
do public service. Amateur radio operators have always participated
in
public service and have done so since before those words were
incorporated
into the FCC rules. There is NO mandate. There is NO authorization.

You guys are engaged in picking fly**** out of the pepper pot. Since
97.1 is headlined "Basis and Purpose", we can pretty much accept that
97.1(a) is the equivalent of a direct order.

Putting it another way, if ARRL BoD at their meeting this weekend passes
a resolution that the FCC has not authorized us to public service
communications, and therefore hams are no longer mandated to provide it,
our continued use of the spectrum would come to a quick end.

73, de Hans, K0HB

In article , Dave Heil
writes:

Len Over 21 wrote:

This newsgroup is all about lets-pretend fish-story-tellers trying
to put down lots of other amateurs. All amateurishly.

You seem confused again, old timer. While you tell your fish stories
and put down radio amateurs, you aren't in fact a radio amateur.

I'm all for eliminating the morse code test from any radio license
examination. That's all.

"Go for it, EX purchasing agent..."

"Of course you did...right after you accepted the Presidential Medal
of Freedom for keeping Homeland Security safe through ham radio."

"Yeah, like a little few-page weekly is on par with the New York
TIMES."

"MODERN HF amateur radio: 'What was good in the 1930s is still
good in 2000s!'"

"Real ham radio is working DX on HF with CW."

"Quit trying to be a Host, sweetums. The only "host" you can be is
of a communicable disease."

"Go get some therapy."

Yep, it appears quite evident from the quoted material just from one of
your posts, Len. You just want to eliminate a code test.

Dave,

Remember this gem of an example of "civil debate" from the same author as the
above:

"Shut the hell up, you little USMC feldwebel. Learn to READ English."

(October 28, 2003)

"Dee D. Flint" wrote:

(snip) We need no authorization whatsoever
to do public service. (snip) There is NO
mandate. There is NO authorization.


How can you sit there and say that, Dee? Again, if you're going to do
public service with a Ham radio, you're only allowed to do public service
which is authorized. You may not do it for profit. You may not do it for a
for-profit business or organization unless it serves the public only, not
the for-profit entity. You may not do it for a non-profit entity if it can
be used for profit (status reports for a walk-a-thon, for example). You may
do it only on the frequencies authorized. And so on. There are rules across
the board as to what is and isn't authorized.


Dwight Stewart (W5NET)

http://www.qsl.net/w5net/

"Dee D. Flint" wrote:

But that is not the context in which you used
it. There is nothing in Part 97 authorizing us
to do public service. (snip)


Okay, lets try a different tact, Dee. If you use your radio for public
service, what types of public service are you authorized to do? What
frequencies are you authorized to use? What types of transmissions are you
authorized to make? What messages are you authorized to transmit? Are you
honestly going to say nothing to each of these questions?


Dwight Stewart (W5NET)

http://www.qsl.net/w5net/

"Leo" wrote:

The belief that a mandate for amateur
radio to participate in public service
communications is quite common -
just did a quick search on Google,
and II have attached an ARRL
reference as well as one amateur
radio club, who both clearly call it a
"mandate".


No, the real problem is that some simply don't understand the full meaning
of the word "mandate." They feel there is some kind of requirement behind
it. So, of course, they get confused when it is used in a non-required
context. However, there is no requirements associated associated with the
other senses of the word. For example, the president can be given a mandate
by the voters to lower taxes, but there is no requirement to do so. Amateur
Radio operators have a mandate to perform public service (it's in the basis
and purpose of this radio service), but there is no requirement to do so.


Dwight Stewart (W5NET)

http://www.qsl.net/w5net/

"Dee D. Flint" wrote:

There is no authorization from the FCC
required to do public service. (snip)


I give up, Dee. You simply cannot get past the word "required." Again,
there is no "required" associated with "mandate" or "authorization" in the
sense used.


You have just demonstrated how little
you know about ARES and RACES.


I've said nothing in the message you replied to about ARES or RACES other
than "the FCC has set rules on what is and isn't authorized in that
situation." Please explain how that demonstrates how little I know about
them?


Dwight Stewart (W5NET)

http://www.qsl.net/w5net/

"KØHB" wrote in message ink.net...
"Dee D. Flint" wrote-

I repeat the words in 97.1a amount only to a recognition of the fact
that we
do public service and encouragement to us to continue. It is not an
authorization to do public service. We need no authorization
whatsoever to
do public service. Amateur radio operators have always participated
in
public service and have done so since before those words were
incorporated
into the FCC rules. There is NO mandate. There is NO authorization.

You guys are engaged in picking fly**** out of the pepper pot. Since
97.1 is headlined "Basis and Purpose", we can pretty much accept that
97.1(a) is the equivalent of a direct order.

Putting it another way, if ARRL BoD at their meeting this weekend passes
a resolution that the FCC has not authorized us to public service
communications, and therefore hams are no longer mandated to provide it,
our continued use of the spectrum would come to a quick end.

73, de Hans, K0HB

We only have what we do by the grace on the FCC and Congress. There is
no part of part 95 or 97 that is a congress passed law only a rule set
up by the FCC. We only have what we do because of the possibility that
we may perform a public service. Hans is correct. No public service
equals no amateur radio. Most public service today could be carried
using Nextel or some other cell. Most PS is auto traffic or weather
and could easily be done that way.

Dwight,

I did some digging on this, and I believe that you are absolutely
correct - a mandate is an authorization or an approval.

In fact, the word "mandate" can be used to mean either a mandatory
requirement or an authorization. The dictionary defines "mandate" as:

http://www.yourdictionary.com/ahd/m/m0073800.html
http://dictionary.reference.com/search?q=mandate

1. An authoritative command or instruction.

2. A command or an authorization given by a political electorate to
its representative.

http://www.m-w.com/cgi-bin/dictionary

1. an authoritative command; especially : a formal order from a
superior court or official to an inferior one

2 : an authorization to act given to a representative accepted the
mandate of the people

Meaning #2, "authorization", would fit the wording and intent of the
regs quite well.

Cross referencing to the Thesaurus, we find the following synonyms
listed for the word "mandate":

http://thesaurus.reference.com/search?q=mandate

Entry: mandate
Function: noun
Definition: authority
Synonyms: authorization, behest, bidding, blank check, carte
blanche, charge, command, commission, decree, dictate, directive,
edict, fiat, go-ahead, green light, imperative, injunction,
instruction, order, precept, sanction, warrant, word
Concept: authorization
Source: Roget's Interactive Thesaurus, First Edition (v 1.0.0)
Copyright © 2004 by Lexico Publishing Group, LLC. All rights reserved.

Entry: approval
Function: noun
Definition: authorization
Synonyms: acquiescence, assent, bells, blessing, compliance,
concurrence, confirmation, consent, countenance, endorsement, finest
kind, go-ahead, green light, leave, license, mandate, ok, OK,
permission, ratification, recommendation, sanction, support, the nod,
validation
Antonyms: denial, disapproval, refusal, rejection
Concept: authorization

Note that both dictionary definitions are represented in the list, but
that the root concept of the word is "authorization". "Mandate is
also listed as a synonym for the word "approval"

The word "mandated" , however, is much clearer - it means "to makes
something mandatory", period.. Mandate, however, is not necessarily an
imperative. These similarity between these two words (and their
interchangeable usage in common speech) may be the source of the
confusion here.

Based on these references, the reference to authorization in the regs
could well be interpreted as a mandate, using the dictionary
definition #2 from both sources, and confirmed by the thesaurus.

73, Leo


On Wed, 14 Jan 2004 09:27:36 GMT, "Dwight Stewart"
wrote:

"Leo" wrote:

The belief that a mandate for amateur
radio to participate in public service
communications is quite common -
just did a quick search on Google,
and II have attached an ARRL
reference as well as one amateur
radio club, who both clearly call it a
"mandate".


No, the real problem is that some simply don't understand the full meaning
of the word "mandate." They feel there is some kind of requirement behind
it. So, of course, they get confused when it is used in a non-required
context. However, there is no requirements associated associated with the
other senses of the word. For example, the president can be given a mandate
by the voters to lower taxes, but there is no requirement to do so. Amateur
Radio operators have a mandate to perform public service (it's in the basis
and purpose of this radio service), but there is no requirement to do so.


Dwight Stewart (W5NET)

http://www.qsl.net/w5net/

"KØHB" wrote in message ink.net...

Since
97.1 is headlined "Basis and Purpose", we can pretty much accept that
97.1(a) is the equivalent of a direct order.

An order to the entire ARS, not to individual amateurs. Of course, if
no
individual amateurs do what 97.1(a) says, the ARS doesn't do it
either.

And a service which doesn't at least fulfill its B&P loses its reason
to exist.

Putting it another way, if ARRL BoD at their meeting this weekend passes
a resolution that the FCC has not authorized us to public service
communications, and therefore hams are no longer mandated to provide it,
our continued use of the spectrum would come to a quick end.

Fortunately, that won't ever happen.

But the following might:

Last evening I had the pleasure and honor of attending a meeting
of a large and well-known radio club. The meeting was well
attended due to the excellent program presented by Ed Hare, W1RFI,
on BPL.

In both simulation and actual measurements, BPL systems cause
interference levels that make any affected band virtually
useless for communication for amateurs and others near such systems.
Depending on the vagaries of HF propagation, amateurs and others
may experience harmful interference from systems that are not
nearby.

ARRL is doing all it can to fight the BPL threat, but there is no
guarantee they will be successful. The BPL companies are promising
inexpensive broadband access, new jobs, competition, new technology,
and all the other electropolitically and econopolitically correct
terms folks like to hear.

If this sounds like I'm stumping for support for ARRL and the fight
against BPL, yer dern right. Because if BPL gets implemented on
any sort of wide scale, issues like license tests or the
appropriateness of certain callsigns will be academic.

What does all this have to do with public service? Simple: The ARS'
right to exist is seriously threatened by BPL. The companies
pushing it say there are millions of people just begging for the
service, more jobs, etc.. And many of the systems work within
*existing* Part 15 radiated emission limits.

So in some ways it comes down to 'which is more important - this
newbroadband technology or ham radio?' Do you want to defend the
existence of amateur
radio based purely on it being "a fun hobby" with no reference to
public
service? If it comes down to that, we'll lose. Big time.

Some might say "BPL isn't my problem; I don't work those bands".
Trouble
is, you may have to deal with BPL harmonics. And a precedent that it's
OK for an unlicensed unintentional radiator to wipe out hams on HF and
low VHF sets
up a very grim future for any ham band.

Hans is right - take away the public service aspect, and the ARS'
reason
to exist is radically reduced, if not totally eliminated. Which may be
exactly why some nonhams find it necessary to deny that amateur radio
provides any public service, and to describe amateur radio as purely
"a fun hobby".

73 de Jim, N2EY