N2EY wrote:

In article om, "Dee D.
Flint" writes:


Yet I believe Novice DOES have permanent credit towards the 5wpm.

Cheers,
Bill K2UNK


The Novice license does indeed bestow lifetime credit but that is not the
same situation as a Tech who subsequent to the April 2000 passed element 1.
In the latter case, the credit is only good for 365 for the purposes of
upgrading as stated.

Dee D. Flint, N8UZE


You're both right, but there are even odder twists in Part 97.

Any expired license still in the grace period bestows the obvious element
credits.

A Novice license expired beyond the grace period bestows Element 1

A Technician license expired beyond the grace period *and* issued before Feb
14, 1991 bestows Element 1 (but not Element 2!)

A Technician license expired beyond the grace period *and* issued before Mar
21, 1987 bestows Elements 1 and 3 (but not Element 2!)

Any commercial radiotelegraph license (issued by FCC, of course) current or
expired less than 5 years bestows Element 1

No other credit for expired licenses.

Think of all the twists!

Suppose someone had a Tech Plus issued after Feb 14, 1991 but more than 12
years prior to today, and they did not renew it, and they bypassed the Novice
back then. No credit. But if they'd gotten that same license before Feb 14,
1991, they'd have credit for Element 1. And if they'd gotten that same license
before Mar 21, 1987, they'd have credit for Elements 1 and 3.

Or suppose someone got a Novice or Tech way back in 1951 (52 years ago) and
never did anyting with it. The old license document would be good for Element 1
in both cases and also Element 3 in the Technician case. But someone who
bypassed those licenses and went straight for General or above gets *no*
credits at all.

Lots of other scenarios. A 1951 Tech whose let his/her license expire in 1956
needs only the old license document and Element 2 to get a General, but someone
who went straight to Extra 12 years and 1 day ago and did not renew gets no
credit at all.

It seems to me it would be a lot simpler to have the rules say that *any* class
of code tested license or equivalent CSCE would grant Element 1 credit, but
they don't. The written test situation is even odder, but it could be argued
that the old writtens did not include RF exposure questions and the regs have
changed quite a bit.

I'll bet you have a headache now, Jim! Its kind of like what I was
saying about actions and their consequences. Any time you change a rule
there are plenty of consequenses - like removing Element one without any
other changes. (which I think is impossible anyway, BTW)

- Mike KB3EIA -

It seems to me it would be a lot simpler to have the rules say that
*any* class
of code tested license or equivalent CSCE would grant Element 1
credit, but
they don't. The written test situation is even odder, but it could be
argued
that the old writtens did not include RF exposure questions and the
regs have
changed quite a bit.


I'll bet you have a headache now, Jim! Its kind of like what I was
saying about actions and their consequences. Any time you change a
rule there are plenty of consequenses - like removing Element one
without any other changes. (which I think is impossible anyway, BTW)

Some brearucrat must have wrote those rules. And didn't understand that
a 13wpm or
20wpm code test would imply the ability to do 5wpm, and thus deserve
credit for element 1.
Said brearucrat was probably told to get the ham rules done this
afternoon, and get on
the new cell phone or whatever rules tommrow.

In article , Mike Coslo
writes:

I'll bet you have a headache now, Jim!

Not at all, Mike. I'm used to the rules having all sorts of twists like that.
You should have seen what the FCC rules for the ARS looked like in the early
'70s! Particularly to put a repeater on the air.

Didja know that there was a considerable period of time (started in the early
1950s) when, if a General or Advanced class ham could document heving held an
amateur license before WW1 (USA entered WW1 in May 1917) the FCC would give you
an Extra with no tests at all?

Its kind of like what I was
saying about actions and their consequences. Any time you change a rule
there are plenty of consequenses - like removing Element one without any
other changes. (which I think is impossible anyway, BTW)

Sure. It's called "The Law of Unexpected Results". Change something, and a
other things will change, too.

For example, look at traffic light timing. It used to be the standard that when
the yellow interval ended in one direction, the green for conflicting traffic
would display right away. Traffic engineers noticed that sometimes accidents
would result from drivers "crowding the yellow" too closely. ("It was orange,
Officer!")

So they decided that there should be a 3 second interval of "all red" to give
time for the intersection to clear.

But after a while they noted people entering intersections *against the red*
(when the yellow interval had just ended) because they knew they had 3 seconds.
Result: More accidents.

But it *is* possible for the FCC to just drop Element 1. K2UNK and I discussed
this some time back right here on rrap and outlined the paragraphs in Part 97
that needed changing or deletion for that to happen. There weren't many!

FCC could make it even simpler, though. They could add the following to the
rules:

"Pending further review and rules changes, Element 1 credit is given to any
applicant for an amateur radio license of any class".

or

"Pending further review and rules changes, the requirement for Element 1 is
waived for an amateur radio license of any class".

One sentence, no other changes until FCC gets the proverbial round tuit.

And if FCC were 100% convinced that code testing serves no purpose, it would
have been dropped by now. Instead, it looks more and more like we're headed for
another NPRM cycle.

73 de Jim, N2EY

N2EY wrote:
In article , Mike Coslo
writes:


I'll bet you have a headache now, Jim!


Not at all, Mike. I'm used to the rules having all sorts of twists like that.
You should have seen what the FCC rules for the ARS looked like in the early
'70s! Particularly to put a repeater on the air.

Didja know that there was a considerable period of time (started in the early
1950s) when, if a General or Advanced class ham could document heving held an
amateur license before WW1 (USA entered WW1 in May 1917) the FCC would give you
an Extra with no tests at all?

Its kind of like what I was
saying about actions and their consequences. Any time you change a rule
there are plenty of consequenses - like removing Element one without any
other changes. (which I think is impossible anyway, BTW)


Sure. It's called "The Law of Unexpected Results". Change something, and a
other things will change, too.

For example, look at traffic light timing. It used to be the standard that when
the yellow interval ended in one direction, the green for conflicting traffic
would display right away. Traffic engineers noticed that sometimes accidents
would result from drivers "crowding the yellow" too closely. ("It was orange,
Officer!")

So they decided that there should be a 3 second interval of "all red" to give
time for the intersection to clear.

Green= go like crazy
Yellow= foot to the floor
Red= only 3 more cars through the intersection.


And some people blame the root of all this on the right turn on red rule.

But after a while they noted people entering intersections *against the red*
(when the yellow interval had just ended) because they knew they had 3 seconds.
Result: More accidents.

But it *is* possible for the FCC to just drop Element 1. K2UNK and I discussed
this some time back right here on rrap and outlined the paragraphs in Part 97
that needed changing or deletion for that to happen. There weren't many!

FCC could make it even simpler, though. They could add the following to the
rules:

"Pending further review and rules changes, Element 1 credit is given to any
applicant for an amateur radio license of any class".

or

"Pending further review and rules changes, the requirement for Element 1 is
waived for an amateur radio license of any class".

Yeah, I guess so. Maybe they can eventually give the other element
credits that way too! ;^)

One sentence, no other changes until FCC gets the proverbial round tuit.

And if FCC were 100% convinced that code testing serves no purpose, it would
have been dropped by now. Instead, it looks more and more like we're headed for
another NPRM cycle.

About 3.5 years, if my predictions hold.

- Mike KB3EIA -