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  #161   Report Post  
Old February 10th 04, 03:58 AM
Carl R. Stevenson
 
Posts: n/a
Default


"N2EY" wrote in message
...
In article , "Carl R. Stevenson"
writes:

"N2EY" wrote in message
...
In article t, "Bill

Sohl"
writes:

[snip]

If all 83,000 Advanceds get a free upgrade to Extra, they'll have

access
to
those choice slices and they'll probably increase the QRM level. So

giving
them
a free upgrade *does* take something away from existing Extras.


Jim,

I'm willing to share the Extra sub-bands with a few others.


Only a few? I'm willing to share them with as many as can pass the
required tests. Particularly the *written* tests.

Be careful ... your "not in my sandbox" motives are showing.


You're the one willing to share with "a few"....


You're squirming pretty hard and stretching pretty far with your attempt
to twist my use of the words "a few others" into something you know
damned well I didn't mean the way you're trying to spin it ...

And I do recall someone saying they'd **NEVER** support a reduction
in the **WRITTEN** test requirements.


I'm not ... I'm supporting the establishment of a reasonable, viable
entry level class with appropriate testing and restrictions.

Yet now I see that same person
supporting free upgrades that involve not even having to take *written*
tests...


As Ed pointed out, the difference between the Tech and General written
tests is not that large - it's a one-shot deal to "make things right" in a
way
where nobody loses privs, and as Bill pointed out, those Techs are already
authorized 1500W at frequencies that the FCC and anyone with any knowledge
of RF safety knows are more "risky" than HF.

Like all those Advanced are on the air now. Give me a break.


If they're not on the air, there's no reason to give them upgrades,
is there?


They'll get upgrades, even if they're SKs whose family hasn't
sent in their license for cancellation - so what?


Why not upgrade all existing hams except Novices to Extra, then?


Because that doesn't comport with either the FCC's or the ARRL's
(or my) desire to have some reason for folks to learn more to upgrade.

[snip]

After careful consideration of Ed Hare's (personal, not ARRL)
comments on the subject on eHam.net


I'll ask again for a link to those comments.


Go to eham.net (or use Google) ... I don't have the URL direct
to Ed's comments handy ...


I (personally, not as NCI)
think it makes the best sense as a one-shot deal as a way forward
to a license/priv structure that makes sense for the future.

Even though it means a one-shot reduction in written test requirements
for over 400,000 hams. That's almost 60% of those licensed today.


Again, the differences are not that great (in content - I know you have
a BIG hangup about the number of questions on the test ...)

Here's another thought: Rules changes like that don't happen overnight -
there's always a time delay between when a rules change is announced and

the
new rules take effect. So if FCC simply accepted ARRL's proposal tomorrow,
they'd probably make it effective a few months hence.


They could make a rules change effective 30 days from publication in the
Federal Register ...

So someone without a license could just take the Tech before the changes

take
place, and then ride the free upgrade bus to General.


Give me a break ... your arguments are just plain lame and your "someone
might
get privs without taking a test with the same number of questions as I took"
is
REALLY showing.

I'd really like to see a link to Ed's arguments...


Go find them - you know how to google.

36-1/2 :-)
Carl - wk3c

  #162   Report Post  
Old February 10th 04, 03:59 AM
Dave Heil
 
Posts: n/a
Default



Mike Coslo wrote:

Dave Heil wrote:
"Carl R. Stevenson" wrote:

"N2EY" wrote in message
...

In article t, "Bill

Sohl"

writes:


[snip]


If all 83,000 Advanceds get a free upgrade to Extra, they'll have

access

to

those choice slices and they'll probably increase the QRM level. So

giving

them

a free upgrade *does* take something away from existing Extras.

Jim,

I'm willing to share the Extra sub-bands with a few others.



That's awfully big of you, Carl.


Be careful ... your "not in my sandbox" motives are showing.



Ah, but it IS his sandbox. It is also MY sandbox and, through a
lowering of the qualifications for obtaining an Extra class license, it
happens to be your sandbox.


Like all those Advanced are on the air now. Give me a break.

If they're not on the air, there's no reason to give them upgrades,
is there?

They'll get upgrades, even if they're SKs whose family hasn't
sent in their license for cancellation - so what?



Why should anyone obtain an upgrade without testing?


83,000 advanced today who are either SK, inactive or just
don't see the need to upgrade and you expect even a measurable
increase in QRM because some of them may suddenly start
operating in the Extra only segments.

Then just leave 'em be!

That would require essentially maintaining the status quo, which
is unacceptable.



How so and to whom?


The FCC wants to simplify -



Really?


the ARRL wants to create a viable
entry level class with meaningful HF privs and reasonable power
limits.

After careful consideration of Ed Hare's (personal, not ARRL)
comments on the subject on eHam.net, I (personally, not as NCI)
think it makes the best sense as a one-shot deal as a way forward
to a license/priv structure that makes sense for the future.



So a "gimme" for tens of thousands is what makes sense to you, huh?
You've often written of morse tests as hoops and hazing, preventing
"otherwise qualified" people from entering amateur radio.


The Morse code was keeping tens of thousands of otherwise *unqualified*
people out too!


That was Carl's litany some years back and why I trotted it out for use
in this instance.

You vowed that
you'd never support a watering down of written tests. Now you are
supporting a freebie for these thousands of "otherwise qualified"
individuals. "Otherwise qualified" must mean those people who can't
pass a required examination.


I'm "otherwise qualified" to be a neurosurgeon!


....and this one was pointed out to Carl and others here by me some years
back.

The idea of a "gimme" for tens of thousands makes no more sense than
Carl's reversal on his vowed support for tougher written exams.

Dave K8MN
  #163   Report Post  
Old February 10th 04, 04:06 AM
Leo
 
Posts: n/a
Default

On Tue, 10 Feb 2004 02:58:14 -0000, "Carl R. Stevenson"
wrote:

snip


.... twist my use of the words "a few others" into something you know
damned well I didn't mean the way you're trying to spin it ...


Hmmm - I think I've had that done to a few of my posts a time or two
as well!

The best defense is still a good offense, I guess......

snip
36-1/2 :-)
Carl - wk3c


73, Leo

  #164   Report Post  
Old February 10th 04, 05:55 AM
Len Over 21
 
Posts: n/a
Default

In article , "Helmut"
writes:

How does the number of new hams since the changes compare to an equal
period of time before the changes?


Jim, it is not the difference in numbers, it is just the fact, that it
happend. Give yourself the cream upon the cake and think positive about the
new situation. Showing anger and agressiv language against those beeing a
"victim" of the restructuring process doesn't bring any good to the ham
family. Not in your country, and not around the world. And where we cannot
do anything against it, it's not worth to argue about it. It is NOT
negotiable.


Helmut, what you say is true but the verbose regulars in this newsgroup
are adamant "America-firsters," that is, what the Americans do is "best"
and therefore that is good for the rest of the world.

The IARU came out with the opinion years ago that morse code testing
should be eliminated from an ITU requirement. The ARRL, a supposed
leader of American amateur radio (with membership less than 25% of
all American amateur licensees) was against it. They aren't really for
eliminating any of it and remain in a middle position, neither for nor
against it. ARRL tries to please too many, therefore there is no real
consensus possible. It reduces to a simple phrasing for American
radio amateurs: All must do as was done in the old days by the old-
timers...because the old-timers imagine they are "the best."

It is a sad situation for the entire world in my estimation, a stubborn
opinion that belongs better in times of two centuries ago. As an
American who loves his country and has done so longer than most
other Americans in here, I am ashamed of their "radio-backwoodsman"
attitudes. Such reflects poorly on us, yet so many remain stubbornly
resolute in an America-first belief, a parochial attitude centering
around themselves with little regard to this nation or the world.

Fortunately for the rest of the radio world (much larger than amateurism)
the USA's negotiations on that rest of the radio world activity is better
and more liberal, willing to listen to other points of view. In here there
is NO other view allowed if it displeases the old-time regulars.

LHA / WMD
  #165   Report Post  
Old February 10th 04, 11:01 AM
N2EY
 
Posts: n/a
Default

In article , "Carl R. Stevenson"
writes:

"N2EY" wrote in message
...
In article , "Carl R. Stevenson"
writes:

"N2EY" wrote in message
...
In article t, "Bill
Sohl"
writes:

[snip]

If all 83,000 Advanceds get a free upgrade to Extra, they'll have
access
to
those choice slices and they'll probably increase the QRM level. So
giving
them
a free upgrade *does* take something away from existing Extras.

Jim,

I'm willing to share the Extra sub-bands with a few others.


Only a few? I'm willing to share them with as many as can pass the
required tests. Particularly the *written* tests.

Be careful ... your "not in my sandbox" motives are showing.


You're the one willing to share with "a few"....


You're squirming pretty hard and stretching pretty far with your attempt
to twist my use of the words "a few others" into something you know


[expletive deleted]

well I didn't mean the way you're trying to spin it ...


I'm not squirming or stretching, Carl. Just pointing out some facts. And I
don't
know what you intended to mean - I just know what you actually wrote. Frankly,
I was very surprised that you support free upgrades without *written* testing
for over 400,000 US hams

And I do recall someone saying they'd **NEVER** support a reduction
in the **WRITTEN** test requirements.


I'm not ...


Let's get this clear right now.

ARRL proposes that all current Techs and Tech Pluses get a free upgrade to
General with no additional testing.

They also propose that all current Advanceds get a free upgrade to Extra
with no additional testing.

Do you support those free upgrades or not?

If you support them, then by definition you are supoorting a reduction in
the written test requirements for those licenses.

Now you might argue that it's only a temporary or one-time reduction, but it's
still a reduction. And since it affects over 400,000 hams, it's not a small
matter.

I'm supporting the establishment of a reasonable, viable
entry level class with appropriate testing and restrictions.


That's a completely different issue. And I support the "NewNovice" concept as
well. In fact I proposed it here more than two years ago.

Yet now I see that same person
supporting free upgrades that involve not even having to take *written*
tests...


As Ed pointed out, the difference between the Tech and General written
tests is not that large - it's a one-shot deal to "make things right" in a
way
where nobody loses privs, and as Bill pointed out, those Techs are already
authorized 1500W at frequencies that the FCC and anyone with any knowledge
of RF safety knows are more "risky" than HF.


Then why should *anyone* have to take the General test? If the Tech written is
adequate for General HF privs for some, why not for all? Why not simply dump
the General question pools into the Extra, and use the current Tech pool for
General?

Like all those Advanced are on the air now. Give me a break.


If they're not on the air, there's no reason to give them upgrades,
is there?

They'll get upgrades, even if they're SKs whose family hasn't
sent in their license for cancellation - so what?


Why not upgrade all existing hams except Novices to Extra, then?


Because that doesn't comport with either the FCC's or the ARRL's
(or my) desire to have some reason for folks to learn more to upgrade.

How do you know what FCC wants?

[snip]

After careful consideration of Ed Hare's (personal, not ARRL)
comments on the subject on eHam.net


I'll ask again for a link to those comments.


Go to eham.net (or use Google) ..


I did. No luck.

I don't have the URL direct to Ed's comments handy ...

So there's a wonderful set of arguments out there, but you can't/won't
point us to them.....That's not how you sell something, Carl.

I (personally, not as NCI)
think it makes the best sense as a one-shot deal as a way forward
to a license/priv structure that makes sense for the future.

Even though it means a one-shot reduction in written test requirements
for over 400,000 hams. That's almost 60% of those licensed today.


Again, the differences are not that great (in content - I know you have
a BIG hangup about the number of questions on the test ...)


I don;t have any hangups about the tests. I'm all for them.

If the difference isn't so great, why require the General test at all?

Here's another thought: Rules changes like that don't happen overnight -
there's always a time delay between when a rules change is announced and
the
new rules take effect. So if FCC simply accepted ARRL's proposal tomorrow,
they'd probably make it effective a few months hence.


They could make a rules change effective 30 days from publication in the
Federal Register ...

Sure - but they don't. Look at the 2000 restructuring - announced in late
December 1999, made effective April 15, 2000. More than 3-1/2 months
- over 100 days - of prep time.

So someone without a license could just take the Tech before the changes
take
place, and then ride the free upgrade bus to General.


Give me a break ...


What do you mean? That's exactly what a lot of people will do.

Those with no license or an existing Novice will have an incentive
to get a Tech before the rules change and ride the free upgrade
bus to General. Those with Tech will have a *disincentive* to
actually take (or study for) the General. Same for Advanceds
and the Extra.

your arguments are just plain lame


How? Do you think people won't do this?

and your "someone might
get privs without taking a test with the same number of questions as I took"
is REALLY showing.


Nobody today can even take the tests I took. You couldn't pass the tests I
took,
Carl.

The tests I took are not the issue. Free upgrades and reduction in written test
requirements are the issue.

I'd really like to see a link to Ed's arguments...


Go find them - you know how to google.


I'll look again but it's quite telling that you are being very unhelpful when
asked for assistance

73 de Jim, N2EY


  #166   Report Post  
Old February 10th 04, 12:44 PM
Helmut
 
Posts: n/a
Default

Len and the group,

reading here since a few weeks, i do agree with the sight of view from your
standpoint.


"Len Over 21" schrieb im Newsbeitrag
...
In article , "Helmut"


writes:

How does the number of new hams since the changes compare to an equal
period of time before the changes?


Jim, it is not the difference in numbers, it is just the fact, that it
happend. Give yourself the cream upon the cake and think positive about

the
new situation. Showing anger and agressiv language against those beeing a
"victim" of the restructuring process doesn't bring any good to the ham
family. Not in your country, and not around the world. And where we

cannot
do anything against it, it's not worth to argue about it. It is NOT
negotiable.


Helmut, what you say is true but the verbose regulars in this newsgroup
are adamant "America-firsters," that is, what the Americans do is

"best"
and therefore that is good for the rest of the world.


There is nothing wrong to be patriotic. But beeing patriotic does not mean,
whats good for my countrie must be good for any other one. Amateur Radio is
a global "institution". The rules for AR are set by an international entity.

The IARU came out with the opinion years ago that morse code testing
should be eliminated from an ITU requirement. The ARRL, a supposed
leader of American amateur radio (with membership less than 25% of
all American amateur licensees) was against it. They aren't really for
eliminating any of it and remain in a middle position, neither for nor
against it. ARRL tries to please too many, therefore there is no real
consensus possible. It reduces to a simple phrasing for American
radio amateurs: All must do as was done in the old days by the old-
timers...because the old-timers imagine they are "the best."


Are this oldtime-hams still use spark gap TX? Thats what they should do when
argueing this way. The Americans never would have reached the moon, thinking
this "old days" way.


It is a sad situation for the entire world in my estimation, a stubborn
opinion that belongs better in times of two centuries ago. As an
American who loves his country and has done so longer than most
other Americans in here, I am ashamed of their "radio-backwoodsman"
attitudes. Such reflects poorly on us, yet so many remain stubbornly
resolute in an America-first belief, a parochial attitude centering
around themselves with little regard to this nation or the world.

Fortunately for the rest of the radio world (much larger than

amateurism)
the USA's negotiations on that rest of the radio world activity is

better
and more liberal, willing to listen to other points of view. In here

there
is NO other view allowed if it displeases the old-time regulars.


What makes me frightened is, theat there is no will to change ones way of
thinking into a global range. The kind of "this is my fence, I dont care
whats outside" mentality is not a hams mentality. It reminds me of the
mentality of the ancient "southstates and yankee" disputes in the OLD US. It
must be the genes, keeping fellow hams from going the right, the ham way.

73 de OE8SOQ
Helmut



LHA / WMD



  #167   Report Post  
Old February 10th 04, 03:46 PM
Mike Coslo
 
Posts: n/a
Default

Carl R. Stevenson wrote:
"N2EY" wrote in message
...

In article , "Carl R. Stevenson"
writes:


"N2EY" wrote in message
...

In article t, "Bill

Sohl"

writes:


[snip]


If all 83,000 Advanceds get a free upgrade to Extra, they'll have

access

to

those choice slices and they'll probably increase the QRM level. So

giving

them

a free upgrade *does* take something away from existing Extras.

Jim,

I'm willing to share the Extra sub-bands with a few others.


Only a few? I'm willing to share them with as many as can pass the
required tests. Particularly the *written* tests.

Be careful ... your "not in my sandbox" motives are showing.


You're the one willing to share with "a few"....



You're squirming pretty hard and stretching pretty far with your attempt
to twist my use of the words "a few others" into something you know
damned well I didn't mean the way you're trying to spin it ...


And I do recall someone saying they'd **NEVER** support a reduction
in the **WRITTEN** test requirements.



I'm not ... I'm supporting the establishment of a reasonable, viable
entry level class with appropriate testing and restrictions.


Speaking of spin!



Yet now I see that same person
supporting free upgrades that involve not even having to take *written*
tests...



As Ed pointed out, the difference between the Tech and General written
tests is not that large - it's a one-shot deal to "make things right" in a
way where nobody loses privs, and as Bill pointed out, those Techs are already
authorized 1500W at frequencies that the FCC and anyone with any knowledge
of RF safety knows are more "risky" than HF.


More spin.

Mistake number one is that this doesn't "make things right".

Mistake number two is assuming that this will be a one shot deal.

What is the rationale for the return to more stringent requirements
after the mass upgrade? That will be looked at as a clear disincentive
to adding new hams after the "upgrade" process.



Like all those Advanced are on the air now. Give me a break.

If they're not on the air, there's no reason to give them upgrades,
is there?

They'll get upgrades, even if they're SKs whose family hasn't
sent in their license for cancellation - so what?


Why not upgrade all existing hams except Novices to Extra, then?



Because that doesn't comport with either the FCC's or the ARRL's
(or my) desire to have some reason for folks to learn more to upgrade.


How are you going to counter the argument that the requirements are
suddenly increased after "making things right"?

If a person that that takes the Technician test today is qualified to
be on HF, then they are equally as qualified the day after things are
"made right".

The only way that this can even remotely be "fair" would be to make the
post restructuring test requirements for the entry level license much
easier.

But you'll never support that will you?



After careful consideration of Ed Hare's (personal, not ARRL)
comments on the subject on eHam.net


I'll ask again for a link to those comments.



Go to eham.net (or use Google) ... I don't have the URL direct
to Ed's comments handy ...


I've used both, and haven't found the comments.



I (personally, not as NCI)
think it makes the best sense as a one-shot deal as a way forward
to a license/priv structure that makes sense for the future.


Even though it means a one-shot reduction in written test requirements
for over 400,000 hams. That's almost 60% of those licensed today.



Again, the differences are not that great (in content - I know you have
a BIG hangup about the number of questions on the test ...)


Here's another thought: Rules changes like that don't happen overnight -
there's always a time delay between when a rules change is announced and


the

new rules take effect. So if FCC simply accepted ARRL's proposal tomorrow,
they'd probably make it effective a few months hence.



They could make a rules change effective 30 days from publication in the
Federal Register ...


So someone without a license could just take the Tech before the changes


take

place, and then ride the free upgrade bus to General.



Give me a break ... your arguments are just plain lame and your "someone
might get privs without taking a test with the same number of questions as
I took" is REALLY showing.



Sorry, Carl! The arguments aren't lame.


I'd really like to see a link to Ed's arguments...



Go find them - you know how to google.


Give us a break here Carl! Both of us have tried, and they seem to be
hidden in there. Perhaps they were removed?


- Mike KB3EIA -

  #168   Report Post  
Old February 10th 04, 06:52 PM
N2EY
 
Posts: n/a
Default

(James F. Aguiar) wrote in message . com...
I think the ARRL is doing a super job of taking care of its own cash
cow.


Do you think all of the work done at ARRL Hq could be done by unpaid
volunteers?

Ham Radio as we know it is changing in the interest of progress
with no considration for the hobby.


I have no idea what that is supposed to mean.

I bet if everyone who subscribes
to QST was to cancel their subscriptions,in other words, BOY COTT the
ARRL, their trend of thought would take a sudden change of direction.


Of course it would. But why should the members do that? What issue
would make
all of the members decide to drop out?

Who cares about manufactures who pay for glossy pages of advertisment
in QST.


I care about one or two of them.

After all didn't we all used to make our own radios once.


Some of us still do.

Is all of your ham gear home made?

It seems as though the reciepe is to dismantle the hobby of amateur
radio and ARRL is trying to hang on to what ever will keep them going
as money making tax free organization.


What, exactly, is ARRL doing that you disagree with? Please be
specific.

Ask your self, what has the ARRL ever done for you personally or for
anyone you know, I bet the answer is zero, nada.


You lose!

Here are some things ARRL has done for me:

- Excellent publications that helped me learn radio theory and
practice
- W1AW code practice helped me improve code skills
- ARRL-sponsored contests, awards and nets are a lot of fun and build
skills as well.
- PRB-1
- Fight against BPL
- Best ham magazine ever printed (QST)
- Representation in Washington and internationally, as well as
information.


I am glad that I have at least had the past 47 or so years of amateur
radio.


Without the ARRL, do you think we'd still have amateur radio? I don't.

I've been a ham for 36+ years, too.

That is how I feel and I just want to voice my personal opinion even
though I am going to get bashed for it.


No bashing, just some questions. You may *feel* the ARRL does nothing
for you, but the reality is quite different.

73 de Jim, N2EY



(N2EY) wrote in message . com...
"Helmut" wrote in message ...
Hi all, on this thread,


Hello!

"N2EY" schrieb im Newsbeitrag
...
In article , Mike Coslo
writes:

Carl R. Stevenson wrote:
"N2EY" wrote in message
Jim,
I'm willing to share the Extra sub-bands with a few others.
Only a few?
Fun fact:
When I got my Extra there were fewer than 10,000 others (other Extras,

that
is). Now there are over 104,000 others. Doesn't bother me a bit. The more

the
merrier - IF they pass the tests.

You all are on the wrong numbers, as you might recall, that the airwaves
wont stop ath the borders of your country.


The "others" I wrote of above are other US Amateur Extra licensees.

There are already hundrets of
thousands HAMS worldwide in "Your Sandbox".


It's not my sandbox. It's our sandbox. And all who can pass the
required
tests are welcome! Not just "a few".

Dont you think that beeing a ham
requires only some simple testing?


Yes! The tests for a US license are very simple, yet some people want
them
to be even more simple. I don't think that's a good idea.

It requires GLOBAL THINKING of open
minded persons. All what I could read here on this matter is everything else
than OPEN MINDED and not a bit of GLOBAL HAM THINKING.


Most of what is discussed here is amateur radio policy in the USA.
That's simply a result of it being US based and in English.

So am I. They need to be tested though, and they need to take the test
that other Extra's take.

Exactly.

Be careful ... your "not in my sandbox" motives are showing.

as are your motives.

As I said before - all who pass the required tests are welcome in *our*
sandbox.

What is "your sandbox"?


I don't have one!

Where can I make a test to access 40m above 7.100 ?


Move to ITU Region 2. Or convince your government to change the rules.

The reason hams in Regions 1 and 3 don't have 7.100-7.300 is that
their
governments wanted that spectrum for shortwave broacasting in 1938.
It's
not the fault of hams or governments in Region 2.

Where can I do the test for usage of 146 - 148 MHz?


Move to ITU Region 2. Or convince your government to change the rules.

This is your sandbox, I
assume.


Not mine. Ours.

But all the other Ham frequencies are also the sandbox and
playground of all the hams in the world. Their numbers are a lot more than
just 100k.


And they're all welcome. But how many of them are actually using, say,
7.000 to 7.025?

Like all those Advanced are on the air now. Give me a break.


If they're not on the air, there's no reason to give them upgrades,
is there?

They'll get upgrades, even if they're SKs whose family hasn't
sent in their license for cancellation - so what?


83,000 advanced today who are either SK, inactive or just
don't see the need to upgrade and you expect even a measurable
increase in QRM because some of them may suddenly start
operating in the Extra only segments.

Then just leave 'em be!


That would require essentially maintaining the status quo, which
is unacceptable.

Why? What happens if the staus quo is maintaned?

Good question.

The FCC wants to simplify - the ARRL wants to create a viable
entry level class with meaningful HF privs and reasonable power
limits.

On what relevant statements do you base this?

After careful consideration of Ed Hare's (personal, not ARRL)
comments on the subject on eHam.net, I (personally, not as NCI)
think it makes the best sense as a one-shot deal as a way forward
to a license/priv structure that makes sense for the future.

As a person that would never support a reduction in the written test
requirements, how do you support your rationale?

Do you now support a reduction in the test requirements? Obviously the
answer is yes.

Are these benificiaries of the so called "one shot deal" qualified to
operate at the level to which they will be advanced?

Thats the usual procedure in most countries of the globe to make a one shot
exam.



That's not the case in the USA. We have several classes of license,
with a very
easy and simple exam for the limited-privileges licenses and a more
advanced exam for the full-privileges license. By the standards of
most of the rest of
the world, the USA exams are very easy.

What is being discussed in this thread is a proposal that would give
more privileges to many with limited-privileges license *without* any
more tests.
I think that's a bad idea.

Assuming your answer is yes, what is the reasoning behind those who
come after the "one shot deal" to have to take a more difficult test?

That's the real problem - particularly for the Tech-to-General upgrade.

Effective after Aug. 15, 2003, this kind of upgrade from non-HF to HF- Hams
has occured after the WRC03 throughout the world.


Are you talking about the code test? We're talking about the *written*
tests.

This has been of greatest
benefit to ham radio after its developement. Now as there is young blood on
the bands, it will keep the ITU from knibbling on the bands.


How much difference has it really made?

How many countries have changed their rules?

How many new hams have gotten on the air since those changes?

How does the number of new hams since the changes compare to an equal
period of time before the changes?

73 de Jim, N2EY

  #170   Report Post  
Old February 10th 04, 08:26 PM
N2EY
 
Posts: n/a
Default

Mike Coslo wrote in message ...
Carl R. Stevenson wrote:
"N2EY" wrote in message
...

In article , "Carl R. Stevenson"
writes:


"N2EY" wrote in message
...

In article t, "Bill

Sohl"

writes:


[snip]


If all 83,000 Advanceds get a free upgrade to Extra, they'll have

access

to

those choice slices and they'll probably increase the QRM level. So

giving

them

a free upgrade *does* take something away from existing Extras.

Jim,

I'm willing to share the Extra sub-bands with a few others.

Only a few? I'm willing to share them with as many as can pass the
required tests. Particularly the *written* tests.

Be careful ... your "not in my sandbox" motives are showing.

You're the one willing to share with "a few"....



You're squirming pretty hard and stretching pretty far with your attempt
to twist my use of the words "a few others" into something you know
damned well I didn't mean the way you're trying to spin it ...


And I do recall someone saying they'd **NEVER** support a reduction
in the **WRITTEN** test requirements.



I'm not ... I'm supporting the establishment of a reasonable, viable
entry level class with appropriate testing and restrictions.


Speaking of spin!


By whom? ;-)

As I see it, the ARRL proposal has five distinct parts:

1) A revised entry level license (I call it the "NewNovice" to
differentiate it from existing license classes). This new class would
have different requirements *and* different privileges than the
current entry-level license (Technician). It would essentially be a
reworking of the old Novice license and would require a new question
pool.

2) Putting most of the Tech test stuff into a new revised General test
(because there won't be any more Tech test).

3) Removal of the code test requirement from all but the Extra.

4) Upgrading all existing Techs and Tech Pluses to General

5) Upgrading all existing Advanceds to Extra.

I think 1) and 2) are a very good ideas

Yet now I see that same person
supporting free upgrades that involve not even having to take *written*
tests...


As Ed pointed out, the difference between the Tech and General written
tests is not that large - it's a one-shot deal to "make things right" in a
way where nobody loses privs, and as Bill pointed out, those Techs are already
authorized 1500W at frequencies that the FCC and anyone with any knowledge
of RF safety knows are more "risky" than HF.


More spin.

Mistake number one is that this doesn't "make things right".

Mistake number two is assuming that this will be a one shot deal.


It will be, because after it's done there won't be any more Techs or
Tech Pluses. Or Advanceds. They'll all be Generals or Extras. No new
ones to be
issued.

What is the rationale for the return to more stringent requirements
after the mass upgrade?


Bingo!

Ham A got his General by passing the Tech and riding the free upgrade
bus.

Ham B has to pass the "NewNovice" (which is easier than the Tech) but
also
the revised General (which is harder than the existing General).

Explain to Ham B why she has to meet higher requirements than Ham A
for the same privileges. (I wanna be there when that is explained!)

That will be looked at as a clear disincentive
to adding new hams after the "upgrade" process.


Exactly.

Like all those Advanced are on the air now. Give me a break.

If they're not on the air, there's no reason to give them upgrades,
is there?

They'll get upgrades, even if they're SKs whose family hasn't
sent in their license for cancellation - so what?

Why not upgrade all existing hams except Novices to Extra, then?



Because that doesn't comport with either the FCC's or the ARRL's
(or my) desire to have some reason for folks to learn more to upgrade.


How are you going to counter the argument that the requirements are
suddenly increased after "making things right"?


bwaahaahaa

If a person that that takes the Technician test today is qualified to
be on HF, then they are equally as qualified the day after things are
"made right".


No more Tech tests will be offered after the Great Giveaway.

The only way that this can even remotely be "fair" would be to make the
post restructuring test requirements for the entry level license much
easier.


That's part of the plan.

But you'll never support that will you?


The privileges of the entry level license will be changed to match the
reduced written exam requirements.

After careful consideration of Ed Hare's (personal, not ARRL)
comments on the subject on eHam.net

I'll ask again for a link to those comments.



Go to eham.net (or use Google) ... I don't have the URL direct
to Ed's comments handy ...


I've used both, and haven't found the comments.

Nor I. So I emailed W1RFI and got a nice reply. I don't agree with his
logic but it was good to hear from him. No, I won't repost private
email here.

I (personally, not as NCI)
think it makes the best sense as a one-shot deal as a way forward
to a license/priv structure that makes sense for the future.

Even though it means a one-shot reduction in written test requirements
for over 400,000 hams. That's almost 60% of those licensed today.


Again, the differences are not that great (in content - I know you have
a BIG hangup about the number of questions on the test ...)


More spin...


Here's another thought: Rules changes like that don't happen overnight -
there's always a time delay between when a rules change is announced and


the

new rules take effect. So if FCC simply accepted ARRL's proposal tomorrow,
they'd probably make it effective a few months hence.



They could make a rules change effective 30 days from publication in the
Federal Register ...


So someone without a license could just take the Tech before the changes


take

place, and then ride the free upgrade bus to General.



Give me a break ... your arguments are just plain lame and your "someone
might get privs without taking a test with the same number of questions as
I took" is REALLY showing.



Sorry, Carl! The arguments aren't lame.


Exactly.

I'd really like to see a link to Ed's arguments...



Go find them - you know how to google.


Give us a break here Carl! Both of us have tried, and they seem to be
hidden in there. Perhaps they were removed?

I doubt they were removed, but perhaps I will paraphrase them in a
future post.

But as of now, Carl has not made a convincing case for free upgrades.

73 de Jim, N2EY
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