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#1
January 20th 04, 01:57 AM
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In article , Alun
writes: (N2EY) wrote in news:c2356669.0401191008.a3c8376 : http://www.arrl.org/news/stories/2004/01/19/1/?nc=1 Summary: 3 classes of license: Novice, General, Extra The _only_ merit to that is that testing was free for Novices, so it would reintroduce a free licence class. Not part of the proposal as I read it. The new Novice would replace the existing Technician class as the entry level exam. It would have less power and fewer VHF/UHF privileges, but more HF privileges. Provided the new class that happened to be called Novice had Tech Plus privileges and they had to pass the current Element 2 I would have no trouble with that Why? Current Element 2 is very VHF/UHF centric, and so are current Tech Plus privs. The goal seems to be to strike more of a balance between above and below 30 MHz privileges. 5 wpm code test retained for Extra only Predictably, I do have a problem with that. Me too. Should be at least 13 and preferably 20 wpm. Sending and receiving. Morse skill testing for voice privileges is illogical and should be dumped. It's no more illogical than testing theory in order to be allowed to use manufactured equipment. Moreover, it can be now, since it has not been required by the ITU for the last six months. FCC will most probably just drop it completely. Existing Advanceds get free upgrade to Extra, OK Why OK? Why not simply carry the Advanceds as a separate class, as has been done for the past 3 years and 9 months? Techs and Tech Pluses get free upgrade to General Not OK in this scenario, given my comments above Agreed - but why is it OK for Advanceds to get a free upgrade to Extra, but not OK for Techs and Tech Pluses to get free upgrade to General? What is the fundamental difference that makes one freebie OK but not the other? 'Phone image subbands for 80/40/15 widened slightly Good. Bad. Some phone below 7100? No? Why not? That space is needed for CW and digital modes. Old Novice subbands replaced by additional CW/data and 'phone subbands on 80/40/15. Novices also get privs on 6, 2, 222, and 440 See above Please clarify. Novice power level set below that requiring RF exposure evaluation OK Agreed. Novice test to be 25 questions on "basics", Not OK Why not? Current Element 2 is only 35 questions! And it has a lot more ground to cover, including all amateur VHF/UHF bands and modes, power up to "meat cooking" levels (love that WK3C phrase) and much more. By reducing the entry-level privs, 25 questions should be enough. General to be derived from Tech and General, Extra pretty much as-is. What do you actually think of this proposal yourself, Jim? You don't say here. See above. A few good ideas and a few bad ideas. Obviously the work of a committee looking to give everyone something they want, but not giving anyone everything they want. What will FCC do? First off, they may just go for the "new Novice", in an effort to attract more new hams. Second, they will probably just dump Element 1. Third, they will probably not hand out free upgrades because it costs them little or nothing to keep the closed-off classes. And that's probably about it. 73 de Jim, N2EY 73 de Jim, N2EY |
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#2
January 20th 04, 03:57 AM
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#3
January 26th 04, 02:40 AM
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#4
January 20th 04, 11:51 AM
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#6
January 20th 04, 04:44 PM
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"Alun" wrote As I understand it, the law providing free testing for Novices remains on the books. Hence, it really does matter what the entry level licence is called. If it is re-named 'Novice', then the test is free. There is no such law. As an incentive to stimulate interest, the ARRL VEC (maybe others) adopted a policy of waiving the authorized charge for the Novice examination. W5YI VEC (for one) tossed a hissy fit and tried to convince FCC to require a fee, but the FCC declined to make it mandatory. 73, de Hans, K0HB |
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#7
January 21st 04, 03:39 AM
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"KØHB" wrote in news:HVcPb.20602$zj7.12312
@newsread1.news.pas.earthlink.net: "Alun" wrote As I understand it, the law providing free testing for Novices remains on the books. Hence, it really does matter what the entry level licence is called. If it is re-named 'Novice', then the test is free. There is no such law. As an incentive to stimulate interest, the ARRL VEC (maybe others) adopted a policy of waiving the authorized charge for the Novice examination. W5YI VEC (for one) tossed a hissy fit and tried to convince FCC to require a fee, but the FCC declined to make it mandatory. 73, de Hans, K0HB That's not what I read. As far as I know it is in a law that was sponsored by the late Senator Barry Goldwater, K7UGA. |
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#8
January 20th 04, 10:59 PM
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Alun wrote in message . ..
(N2EY) wrote in : In article , Alun writes: (N2EY) wrote in news:c2356669.0401191008.a3c8376 : http://www.arrl.org/news/stories/2004/01/19/1/?nc=1 Summary: 3 classes of license: Novice, General, Extra The _only_ merit to that is that testing was free for Novices, so it would reintroduce a free licence class. Not part of the proposal as I read it. As I understand it, the law providing free testing for Novices remains on the books. Hence, it really does matter what the entry level licence is called. If it is re-named 'Novice', then the test is free. No, it's not part of the proposal, and having since read the whole thing on the ARRL web site, it appears that the league haven't thought about this particular wrinkle, as they say that the name is still open and it could be called something else. Unless K0HB is mistaken, no such rule exists in Part 97. And since no new Novices have been issued in almost 4 years, it's a bit of a moot point. But it might be a nice thing for VECs to do... The new Novice would replace the existing Technician class as the entry level exam. It would have less power and fewer VHF/UHF privileges, but more HF privileges. Provided the new class that happened to be called Novice had Tech Plus privileges and they had to pass the current Element 2 I would have no trouble with that Why? I thought the old Novice was too easy Why? The old 20-25 question Novice I took in 1967 at the age of 13 was adequate to keep me out of trouble, even though my first station was homebrewed from junk parts. And that Novice license started me on the path to Advanced in about a year, Extra in about 3 years and BSEE in a little over 8 years.... And there were many many Novices like me. If an entry level license keeps the newbies out of trouble and inspires them to learn and do more, isn't that just about perfect? Current Element 2 is very VHF/UHF centric, and so are current Tech Plus privs. The goal seems to be to strike more of a balance between above and below 30 MHz privileges. So change the question pool, but don't dumb it down How do we define "dumbing it down"? If 35 questions are adequate for all amateur VHF/UHF at full meat-cooking power, plus 200 watts on parts of HF, shouldn't 25 be adequate for the limited privs proposed for the Novice? 5 wpm code test retained for Extra only Predictably, I do have a problem with that. Me too. Should be at least 13 and preferably 20 wpm. Sending and receiving. Won't happen Probably not, but it's still a good idea. Morse skill testing for voice privileges is illogical and should be dumped. It's no more illogical than testing theory in order to be allowed to use manufactured equipment. Not in my opinion It's the same argument used against the code test. Why *must* a ham learn all that theory to use manufactured, approved gear with no critical adjustments? Heck, most ham gear today won't transmit out of band unless modified! Moreover, it can be now, since it has not been required by the ITU for the last six months. FCC will most probably just drop it completely. I think they will too Unfortunately Existing Advanceds get free upgrade to Extra, OK Why OK? Why not simply carry the Advanceds as a separate class, as has been done for the past 3 years and 9 months? Can't stand loose ends What's the problem? FCC kept the Advanced on the books from 1953 to 1967 even though no new ones were issued and the license conveyed no additional privileges at all. Techs and Tech Pluses get free upgrade to General Not OK in this scenario, given my comments above Agreed - but why is it OK for Advanceds to get a free upgrade to Extra, but not OK for Techs and Tech Pluses to get free upgrade to General? What is the fundamental difference that makes one freebie OK but not the other? As I see it, the new Novice would be a replacement for the Tech, which is already pretty easy Exactly. But that doesn't answer the question. You want Advanceds to get free upgrades to avoid ~82,000 loose ends, but not Techs and Tech pluses, who would amount to ~322,000 loose ends. I don't see why one and not the other. 'Phone image subbands for 80/40/15 widened slightly Good. Bad. Some phone below 7100? No? Why not? That space is needed for CW and digital modes. Better to keep those on the Novice freqs and refarm more useful spectrum to phone Why reward the most spectrum-inefficent modes? Why not digital voice? Old Novice subbands replaced by additional CW/data and 'phone subbands on 80/40/15. Novices also get privs on 6, 2, 222, and 440 See above Please clarify. I see no benefit in giving over 7125-7150 to phone. 25 kHz more. 7075-7100, for example, would be the same size and in a more useful place. Moreover, it would harmonise Region 2 US hams with US hams outside R2. Hams outside Region 2 will be getting 7100-7200 anyway. Let them harmonize with us. Novice power level set below that requiring RF exposure evaluation OK Agreed. Novice test to be 25 questions on "basics", Not OK Why not? Current Element 2 is only 35 questions! And it has a lot more ground to cover, including all amateur VHF/UHF bands and modes, power up to "meat cooking" levels (love that WK3C phrase) and much more. By reducing the entry-level privs, 25 questions should be enough. With that power limit you could take out the RF exposure questions, but I think the test is already easy enough. To a beginner, it's not so easy. General to be derived from Tech and General, Extra pretty much as-is. What do you actually think of this proposal yourself, Jim? You don't say here. See above. A few good ideas and a few bad ideas. Obviously the work of a committee looking to give everyone something they want, but not giving anyone everything they want. What will FCC do? First off, they may just go for the "new Novice", in an effort to attract more new hams. Re-naming the Tech as a Novice would make the test free under existing law. That has some appeal. See above about the "law". Second, they will probably just dump Element 1. Agreed Third, they will probably not hand out free upgrades because it costs them little or nothing to keep the closed-off classes. I think that for some reason their computers are only set up to handle 5 classes of licence, but I guess that works out as there won't be two types of Tech anymore (this is also the reason why they aren't recorded differently right now). Incorrect! Before restructuring, their computers handled 6 classes of license (Novice, Tech, Tech Plus, General, Advanced, Extra). In fact their computers *still* handle 6 classes! So there should be no problem at all. And as Tech Pluses continue to be renewed as Techs, expire, and upgrade, that class will disappear completely. I personally am not in favour of keeping closed licence classes, though. I think it is better to move on. I agree, but not at the price of giveaways just to make things look neater. How would you feel if it were decided to give all existing hams except Novices a free upgrade to Extra, then have just two classes - "Limited" (new name for Novice) and "Full" (everybody else)? 73 de Jim, N2EY |
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#9
January 21st 04, 03:48 AM
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(N2EY) wrote in
om: Alun wrote in message . .. (N2EY) wrote in : In article , Alun writes: (N2EY) wrote in news:c2356669.0401191008.a3c8376 : http://www.arrl.org/news/stories/2004/01/19/1/?nc=1 Summary: 3 classes of license: Novice, General, Extra The _only_ merit to that is that testing was free for Novices, so it would reintroduce a free licence class. Not part of the proposal as I read it. As I understand it, the law providing free testing for Novices remains on the books. Hence, it really does matter what the entry level licence is called. If it is re-named 'Novice', then the test is free. No, it's not part of the proposal, and having since read the whole thing on the ARRL web site, it appears that the league haven't thought about this particular wrinkle, as they say that the name is still open and it could be called something else. Unless K0HB is mistaken, no such rule exists in Part 97. And since no new Novices have been issued in almost 4 years, it's a bit of a moot point. But it might be a nice thing for VECs to do... The new Novice would replace the existing Technician class as the entry level exam. It would have less power and fewer VHF/UHF privileges, but more HF privileges. Provided the new class that happened to be called Novice had Tech Plus privileges and they had to pass the current Element 2 I would have no trouble with that Why? I thought the old Novice was too easy Why? The old 20-25 question Novice I took in 1967 at the age of 13 was adequate to keep me out of trouble, even though my first station was homebrewed from junk parts. And that Novice license started me on the path to Advanced in about a year, Extra in about 3 years and BSEE in a little over 8 years.... And there were many many Novices like me. If an entry level license keeps the newbies out of trouble and inspires them to learn and do more, isn't that just about perfect? Current Element 2 is very VHF/UHF centric, and so are current Tech Plus privs. The goal seems to be to strike more of a balance between above and below 30 MHz privileges. So change the question pool, but don't dumb it down How do we define "dumbing it down"? If 35 questions are adequate for all amateur VHF/UHF at full meat-cooking power, plus 200 watts on parts of HF, shouldn't 25 be adequate for the limited privs proposed for the Novice? 5 wpm code test retained for Extra only Predictably, I do have a problem with that. Me too. Should be at least 13 and preferably 20 wpm. Sending and receiving. Won't happen Probably not, but it's still a good idea. Morse skill testing for voice privileges is illogical and should be dumped. It's no more illogical than testing theory in order to be allowed to use manufactured equipment. Not in my opinion It's the same argument used against the code test. Why *must* a ham learn all that theory to use manufactured, approved gear with no critical adjustments? Heck, most ham gear today won't transmit out of band unless modified! Moreover, it can be now, since it has not been required by the ITU for the last six months. FCC will most probably just drop it completely. I think they will too Unfortunately Existing Advanceds get free upgrade to Extra, OK Why OK? Why not simply carry the Advanceds as a separate class, as has been done for the past 3 years and 9 months? Can't stand loose ends What's the problem? FCC kept the Advanced on the books from 1953 to 1967 even though no new ones were issued and the license conveyed no additional privileges at all. Techs and Tech Pluses get free upgrade to General Not OK in this scenario, given my comments above Agreed - but why is it OK for Advanceds to get a free upgrade to Extra, but not OK for Techs and Tech Pluses to get free upgrade to General? What is the fundamental difference that makes one freebie OK but not the other? As I see it, the new Novice would be a replacement for the Tech, which is already pretty easy Exactly. But that doesn't answer the question. You want Advanceds to get free upgrades to avoid ~82,000 loose ends, but not Techs and Tech pluses, who would amount to ~322,000 loose ends. I don't see why one and not the other. 'Phone image subbands for 80/40/15 widened slightly Good. Bad. Some phone below 7100? No? Why not? That space is needed for CW and digital modes. Better to keep those on the Novice freqs and refarm more useful spectrum to phone Why reward the most spectrum-inefficent modes? Why not digital voice? Old Novice subbands replaced by additional CW/data and 'phone subbands on 80/40/15. Novices also get privs on 6, 2, 222, and 440 See above Please clarify. I see no benefit in giving over 7125-7150 to phone. 25 kHz more. 7075-7100, for example, would be the same size and in a more useful place. Moreover, it would harmonise Region 2 US hams with US hams outside R2. Hams outside Region 2 will be getting 7100-7200 anyway. Let them harmonize with us. US hams outside R2 already have 7075-7100 phone Read it again. *US* hams outside R2 Novice power level set below that requiring RF exposure evaluation OK Agreed. Novice test to be 25 questions on "basics", Not OK Why not? Current Element 2 is only 35 questions! And it has a lot more ground to cover, including all amateur VHF/UHF bands and modes, power up to "meat cooking" levels (love that WK3C phrase) and much more. By reducing the entry-level privs, 25 questions should be enough. With that power limit you could take out the RF exposure questions, but I think the test is already easy enough. To a beginner, it's not so easy. General to be derived from Tech and General, Extra pretty much as-is. What do you actually think of this proposal yourself, Jim? You don't say here. See above. A few good ideas and a few bad ideas. Obviously the work of a committee looking to give everyone something they want, but not giving anyone everything they want. What will FCC do? First off, they may just go for the "new Novice", in an effort to attract more new hams. Re-naming the Tech as a Novice would make the test free under existing law. That has some appeal. See above about the "law". Second, they will probably just dump Element 1. Agreed Third, they will probably not hand out free upgrades because it costs them little or nothing to keep the closed-off classes. I think that for some reason their computers are only set up to handle 5 classes of licence, but I guess that works out as there won't be two types of Tech anymore (this is also the reason why they aren't recorded differently right now). Incorrect! Before restructuring, their computers handled 6 classes of license (Novice, Tech, Tech Plus, General, Advanced, Extra). In fact their computers *still* handle 6 classes! So there should be no problem at all. And as Tech Pluses continue to be renewed as Techs, expire, and upgrade, that class will disappear completely. I personally am not in favour of keeping closed licence classes, though. I think it is better to move on. I agree, but not at the price of giveaways just to make things look neater. Better that than the only possible alternative - taking privileges away How would you feel if it were decided to give all existing hams except Novices a free upgrade to Extra, then have just two classes - "Limited" (new name for Novice) and "Full" (everybody else)? 73 de Jim, N2EY I would be OK with that only if the Techs got only a limited licence. I would have no problem with giving Generals a full licence. Of course, to be fair you would have to extend that to Techs with old Element 3. |
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#10
January 21st 04, 12:16 AM
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"Alun" wrote in message ... I see no benefit in giving over 7125-7150 to phone. 7075-7100, for example, would be the same size and in a more useful place. Moreover, it would harmonise Region 2 US hams with US hams outside R2. This will crowd the CW/digital/data modes too much since there are so many US hams. It would be better to wait for the other treaty changes from the conference to take affect and synchronize Regions 1 and 3 with Region 2. You do know of course that the treaty now requires broadcasters to move out of 7.1 to 7.2 and that this will become an exclusive amateur allocation. I don't recall the timing but it is required in the treaty. Perhaps someday, the ITU will open up the 7.2 to 7.3 to the other regions. In the meantime, 7.150 to 7.200 could be a worldwide phone allocation. This is actually more space than either of the suggested proposals. Dee D. Flint, N8UZE |
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