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  #22   Report Post  
Old January 20th 04, 12:38 PM
Steve Robeson, K4CAP
 
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"Tom Winston" wrote in message ...
On 19 Jan 2004 10:08:20 -0800, N2EY wrote:

Existing Advanceds get free upgrade to Extra, ...


That's not an upgrade; that's a downgrade. Advanced class licensees
passed the Extra class written exam, and passed a 13 wpm code test.
Furthermore, most Advanced class licensees took the older Extra exam
-- an exam that's a lot tougher than the current Extra exam.


Uhhhh...in what universe?

The only "Advanced" class licensees that I know of that took an
Extra written test but didn't upgrade were one's who failed the 20WPM.

And I'd like to know how getting more operating privileges is a
"downgrade"...?!?!

Would you take an airline ticket "upgrade" by moving FROM First
Class to Coach? Uh uh...It's the other way around. Same here.

Possession of the Advanced class license proves that the holder met
higher standards than the current crop of Extras.


Perhaps. Certainly the Advanced Class folks passed a more
stringent code test. My Advanced written was hard, but so was the
Extra. I am proud of both.

So thanks, but no thanks. When I want to downgrade, *I* will make
that decision.

Just go away, ARRL, and keep your grimy paws off my license.


Yeah...how dare they offer to get you more operating privileges
without having to take any further tests...rotten scoundrels anyway...

Steve, K4YZ
  #24   Report Post  
Old January 20th 04, 05:19 PM
Harris
 
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JJ wrote:

Oh great, I get to be an Extra by default. I had rather keep my
Advanced, advanced even sounds more advanced than Extra does.


Yeah, my son is a Tech Plus. He was thinking of upgrading to General last
year but didn't bother. Now he stands to get a free upgrade. The message
is clear: Don't knock yourself out; be patient and eventually they'll give
you everything without asking you to expend any effort.

Art Harris N2AH
  #25   Report Post  
Old January 20th 04, 05:37 PM
Alun
 
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(N2EY) wrote in
:

In article , Alun
writes:

(N2EY) wrote in news:c2356669.0401191008.a3c8376
:

http://www.arrl.org/news/stories/2004/01/19/1/?nc=1

Summary:

3 classes of license: Novice, General, Extra


The _only_ merit to that is that testing was free for Novices, so it
would reintroduce a free licence class.


Not part of the proposal as I read it.


As I understand it, the law providing free testing for Novices remains on
the books. Hence, it really does matter what the entry level licence is
called. If it is re-named 'Novice', then the test is free.

No, it's not part of the proposal, and having since read the whole thing on
the ARRL web site, it appears that the league haven't thought about this
particular wrinkle, as they say that the name is still open and it could be
called something else.

The new Novice would replace the existing Technician class as the entry
level exam. It would have less power and fewer VHF/UHF privileges, but
more HF privileges.

Provided the new class that happened to
be called Novice had Tech Plus privileges and they had to pass the
current Element 2 I would have no trouble with that


Why?


I thought the old Novice was too easy


Current Element 2 is very VHF/UHF centric, and so are current Tech Plus
privs. The goal seems to be to strike more of a balance between above
and below 30 MHz privileges.


So change the question pool, but don't dumb it down


5 wpm code test retained for Extra only


Predictably, I do have a problem with that.


Me too. Should be at least 13 and preferably 20 wpm. Sending and
receiving.


Won't happen

Morse skill testing for voice privileges is illogical and should be
dumped.


It's no more illogical than testing theory in order to be allowed to
use manufactured equipment.


Not in my opinion

Moreover, it can be now,
since it has not been required by the ITU for the last six months.

FCC will most probably just drop it completely.


I think they will too

Existing Advanceds get free upgrade to Extra,


OK


Why OK? Why not simply carry the Advanceds as a separate class, as has
been done for the past 3 years and 9 months?


Can't stand loose ends


Techs and Tech Pluses get free upgrade to General


Not OK in this scenario, given my comments above

Agreed - but why is it OK for Advanceds to get a free upgrade to Extra,
but not OK for Techs and Tech Pluses to get free upgrade to General?

What is the fundamental difference that makes one freebie OK but not
the other?


As I see it, the new Novice would be a replacement for the Tech, which is
already pretty easy


'Phone image subbands for 80/40/15 widened slightly


Good.


Bad.

Some phone below 7100? No? Why not?


That space is needed for CW and digital modes.


Better to keep those on the Novice freqs and refarm more useful spectrum to
phone


Old Novice subbands replaced by additional CW/data
and 'phone subbands on 80/40/15. Novices also get privs on 6, 2, 222,
and 440


See above


Please clarify.


I see no benefit in giving over 7125-7150 to phone. 7075-7100, for example,
would be the same size and in a more useful place. Moreover, it would
harmonise Region 2 US hams with US hams outside R2.


Novice power level set below that requiring RF exposure evaluation


OK


Agreed.

Novice test to be 25 questions on "basics",


Not OK


Why not? Current Element 2 is only 35 questions! And it has a lot
more ground to cover, including all amateur VHF/UHF bands and modes,
power up to "meat cooking" levels (love that WK3C phrase) and much
more.

By reducing the entry-level privs, 25 questions should be enough.


With that power limit you could take out the RF exposure questions, but I
think the test is already easy enough.

General to be
derived from Tech and General, Extra pretty much as-is.


What do you actually think of this proposal yourself, Jim? You don't
say here.


See above. A few good ideas and a few bad ideas. Obviously the work of
a committee looking to give everyone something they want, but not
giving anyone everything they want.

What will FCC do?

First off, they may just go for the "new Novice", in an effort to
attract more new hams.


Re-naming the Tech as a Novice would make the test free under existing law.
That has some appeal.


Second, they will probably just dump Element 1.


Agreed


Third, they will probably not hand out free upgrades because it costs
them little or nothing to keep the closed-off classes.


I think that for some reason their computers are only set up to handle 5
classes of licence, but I guess that works out as there won't be two types
of Tech anymore (this is also the reason why they aren't recorded
differently right now).

I personally am not in favour of keeping closed licence classes, though. I
think it is better to move on.


And that's probably about it.

73 de Jim, N2EY

73 de Jim, N2EY


73 de Alun, N3KIP


  #26   Report Post  
Old January 20th 04, 05:44 PM
KØHB
 
Posts: n/a
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"Alun" wrote

As I understand it, the law providing free testing for Novices remains
on
the books. Hence, it really does matter what the entry level licence
is
called. If it is re-named 'Novice', then the test is free.

There is no such law.

As an incentive to stimulate interest, the ARRL VEC (maybe others)
adopted a policy of waiving the authorized charge for the Novice
examination. W5YI VEC (for one) tossed a hissy fit and tried to
convince FCC to require a fee, but the FCC declined to make it
mandatory.

73, de Hans, K0HB







  #27   Report Post  
Old January 20th 04, 06:03 PM
N2EY
 
Posts: n/a
Default

"Kim

wrote in message ...
"N2EY" wrote in message
...
In article ,

ospam
(Larry Roll K3LT) writes:

Jim:

This new ARRL Proposal is pretty much what I would expect to come out of
Newington these days.


Except it didn't come out of Newington - it's the result of the BoD's
vote. And
the BoD are from all over the country, elected by the members.


True indeed. However, it would be interesting to see how much "membership"
actually participated


a) in the election of the BoD


Every full member gets a ballot. If they don't bother to fill it out
and send it in, it's their loss.

The requirements to run for Director are pretty simple, too.

and b) how much--because
of that--the ARRL's decisions are actually influenced by a majority of US
Amateur Radio Operators.


Obviously not as much as we might like, because the majority of US hams
who bothered to express an opinion on code testing in comments to FCC
back in 98-143 times wanted at least 2 code test speeds. And the comments
to the various petitions now before the FCC on code testing (like
RM-10811) are majority-pro-code-test.

So the ARRL BoD is obviously taking some people's definition of "leadership"
(meaning do what you think is best regardless of majority opinion) in
proposing what they've proposed.

Nothing wrong with the concept that the BoD represents someone, but who they
represent is those members of whom decide to actually be active in the
goings-on of the ARRL; and I don't think many do. Any numbers on that?


You can look up the various BoD election results as to who got how many votes.

--

What will be really interesting is if/when FCC gives it an RM number, and
what the comments are. And what FCC will do.

I'm thinking that the free upgrade thing (which was
rejected back in restructuring time) will be rejected *again*, and that
the "21st Century Novice" idea will be adopted.

I recall Hans predicting a 15 wpm code test for Extra as part ot the ARRL
proposal.....

73 de Jim, N2EY
  #28   Report Post  
Old January 20th 04, 07:05 PM
KØHB
 
Posts: n/a
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"N2EY" wrote

I recall Hans predicting a 15 wpm code test for Extra as part ot the
ARRL
proposal.....

You recall wrong. To see my actual prediction, do a google group search
on "ARRL BoD platitudes" without the quotes.

With all kind wishes,

de Hans, K0HB






  #29   Report Post  
Old January 20th 04, 11:59 PM
N2EY
 
Posts: n/a
Default

Alun wrote in message . ..
(N2EY) wrote in
:

In article , Alun
writes:

(N2EY) wrote in news:c2356669.0401191008.a3c8376
:

http://www.arrl.org/news/stories/2004/01/19/1/?nc=1

Summary:

3 classes of license: Novice, General, Extra

The _only_ merit to that is that testing was free for Novices, so it
would reintroduce a free licence class.


Not part of the proposal as I read it.


As I understand it, the law providing free testing for Novices remains on
the books. Hence, it really does matter what the entry level licence is
called. If it is re-named 'Novice', then the test is free.

No, it's not part of the proposal, and having since read the whole thing on
the ARRL web site, it appears that the league haven't thought about this
particular wrinkle, as they say that the name is still open and it could be
called something else.


Unless K0HB is mistaken, no such rule exists in Part 97. And since no
new Novices have been issued in almost 4 years, it's a bit of a moot
point.

But it might be a nice thing for VECs to do...

The new Novice would replace the existing Technician class as the entry
level exam. It would have less power and fewer VHF/UHF privileges, but
more HF privileges.

Provided the new class that happened to
be called Novice had Tech Plus privileges and they had to pass the
current Element 2 I would have no trouble with that


Why?


I thought the old Novice was too easy


Why? The old 20-25 question Novice I took in 1967 at the age of 13 was
adequate to keep me out of trouble, even though my first station was
homebrewed from junk parts. And that Novice license started me on the
path to Advanced in about a year, Extra in about 3 years and BSEE in
a little over 8 years....

And there were many many Novices like me. If an entry level license
keeps the newbies out of trouble and inspires them to learn and do
more, isn't that just about perfect?

Current Element 2 is very VHF/UHF centric, and so are current Tech Plus
privs. The goal seems to be to strike more of a balance between above
and below 30 MHz privileges.


So change the question pool, but don't dumb it down


How do we define "dumbing it down"? If 35 questions are adequate for
all amateur VHF/UHF at full meat-cooking power, plus 200 watts on
parts of HF, shouldn't 25 be adequate for the limited privs
proposed for the Novice?

5 wpm code test retained for Extra only

Predictably, I do have a problem with that.


Me too. Should be at least 13 and preferably 20 wpm. Sending and
receiving.


Won't happen


Probably not, but it's still a good idea.

Morse skill testing for voice privileges is illogical and should be
dumped.


It's no more illogical than testing theory in order to be allowed to
use manufactured equipment.


Not in my opinion


It's the same argument used against the code test. Why *must* a ham
learn all that theory to use manufactured, approved gear with no
critical adjustments? Heck, most ham gear today won't transmit out
of band unless modified!

Moreover, it can be now,
since it has not been required by the ITU for the last six months.

FCC will most probably just drop it completely.


I think they will too


Unfortunately

Existing Advanceds get free upgrade to Extra,

OK


Why OK? Why not simply carry the Advanceds as a separate class, as has
been done for the past 3 years and 9 months?


Can't stand loose ends


What's the problem? FCC kept the Advanced on the books from 1953 to
1967
even though no new ones were issued and the license conveyed no
additional
privileges at all.

Techs and Tech Pluses get free upgrade to General

Not OK in this scenario, given my comments above

Agreed - but why is it OK for Advanceds to get a free upgrade to Extra,
but not OK for Techs and Tech Pluses to get free upgrade to General?

What is the fundamental difference that makes one freebie OK but not
the other?


As I see it, the new Novice would be a replacement for the Tech, which is
already pretty easy


Exactly. But that doesn't answer the question. You want Advanceds to
get free upgrades to avoid ~82,000 loose ends, but not Techs and Tech
pluses, who would
amount to ~322,000 loose ends.

I don't see why one and not the other.

'Phone image subbands for 80/40/15 widened slightly

Good.


Bad.

Some phone below 7100? No? Why not?


That space is needed for CW and digital modes.


Better to keep those on the Novice freqs and refarm more useful spectrum to
phone


Why reward the most spectrum-inefficent modes? Why not digital voice?

Old Novice subbands replaced by additional CW/data
and 'phone subbands on 80/40/15. Novices also get privs on 6, 2, 222,
and 440


See above


Please clarify.


I see no benefit in giving over 7125-7150 to phone.


25 kHz more.

7075-7100, for example,
would be the same size and in a more useful place. Moreover, it would
harmonise Region 2 US hams with US hams outside R2.


Hams outside Region 2 will be getting 7100-7200 anyway. Let them
harmonize with us.

Novice power level set below that requiring RF exposure evaluation

OK


Agreed.

Novice test to be 25 questions on "basics",

Not OK


Why not? Current Element 2 is only 35 questions! And it has a lot
more ground to cover, including all amateur VHF/UHF bands and modes,
power up to "meat cooking" levels (love that WK3C phrase) and much
more.

By reducing the entry-level privs, 25 questions should be enough.


With that power limit you could take out the RF exposure questions, but I
think the test is already easy enough.


To a beginner, it's not so easy.

General to be
derived from Tech and General, Extra pretty much as-is.


What do you actually think of this proposal yourself, Jim? You don't
say here.


See above. A few good ideas and a few bad ideas. Obviously the work of
a committee looking to give everyone something they want, but not
giving anyone everything they want.

What will FCC do?

First off, they may just go for the "new Novice", in an effort to
attract more new hams.


Re-naming the Tech as a Novice would make the test free under existing law.
That has some appeal.


See above about the "law".

Second, they will probably just dump Element 1.


Agreed

Third, they will probably not hand out free upgrades because it costs
them little or nothing to keep the closed-off classes.


I think that for some reason their computers are only set up to handle 5
classes of licence, but I guess that works out as there won't be two types
of Tech anymore (this is also the reason why they aren't recorded
differently right now).


Incorrect!

Before restructuring, their computers handled 6 classes of license
(Novice, Tech, Tech Plus, General, Advanced, Extra). In fact their
computers *still* handle 6 classes! So there should be no problem at
all.

And as Tech Pluses continue to be renewed as Techs, expire, and
upgrade, that class will disappear completely.

I personally am not in favour of keeping closed licence classes, though. I
think it is better to move on.


I agree, but not at the price of giveaways just to make things look
neater.

How would you feel if it were decided to give all existing hams except
Novices a free upgrade to Extra, then have just two classes -
"Limited" (new name for Novice) and "Full" (everybody else)?

73 de Jim, N2EY
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