"N2EY" wrote in message
...
In article , Paul W. Schleck
writes:

In (N2EY)
writes:


In article om, "Dee
D.
Flint" writes:

Basically I think the ARRL Board knows that the free upgrades means
that
their proposal probably will not be adopted in this form. The FCC has
never
gone along with free upgrades before and there is no evidence that they
would do so now. However, I believe they tossed it in as another idea
for
the FCC to consider in developing whatever the FCC decides to do, if
they
decide to do anything at all.

That's probably correct, Dee. And that's what bothers me!

As you say, FCC has never done free upgrades, and the last time the
issue
came
up (98-143), the ARRL proposal was for existing Novices (!) and Tech
Pluses
to
get free upgrade to General. Of course, FCC said "no way", and has had
no
problem whatever keeping the closed-to-new-issues classes in their
database.

So why propose something FCC obviously isn't going to do? Just wastes
everybody's time.

More important, it diverts attention from the other issues.

oh wait, I think I just answered my own question...;-)

73 de Jim, N2EY

I brought this subject up with someone in the League. This exact
thread, actually. I was told that the ARRL BoD sincerely believes (take
at face value, or not) that failure to upgrade licensees in the FCC R&O
for WT 98-143 was not a final "no" answer.

Maybe it wasn't. But are such freebies really a good idea?

Here's your options:

We currently have essentially a 6 license system in place (even though
several licenses are no longer issued). To go from that system
to the one proposed by ARRL leaves three options as I see it:

1. The one-time free upgrade process as put forth by ARRL which takes
nothing away from anyone and immediately gets everyone into the
new 3 license system, or

2. Go to the new system but "grandfather" those on current but no
longer to be issued license classes which takes nothing from anyone but
presents a dual system of licenses, rules and regulations which would
likly exist for decades until those with licenses no longer being issued
as new ended up SK or otherwise dropped from our ranks or,

3. Implement the ARRL 3 licnense system and downgrade some
folks to new Novice (i.e. the Techs) or General (i.e the Advanced).
This last scenario takes away privileges and we all know how well
that went down in the late 60's Incentive Licensing implementation.

To me the answer is clear...and, I suspect so is it also to ARRL which
is why the proposal includes free upgrades.

Rather, it is just one of
the unresolved loose ends that was deliberately not tied up until better
consensus emerged from the amateur radio community about things like
Novice band refarming, etc. The League official noted that the ARRL's
band refarming proposal, RM-10413, has been sitting on an FCC official's
desk for about two years now (he claims to know the exact FCC official,
but did not name him). Because of this, as long a wait, if not longer,
is expected on a "final" answer concerning automatic upgrading.

I say we should judge by actions. When FCC thinksa proposal is a good or
bad
idea, they act. How long did the whole 98-143 process take, from initial
release of the NPRM to the new rules in April 2000?

More important, what would a lack of free upgrades hurt? Is it really such
a
burden to require an Advanced to pass Element 4, or a Tech to pass Element
3,
in order to get the next higher grade of license?

See options 2 and 3 above.

Cheersm
Bill K2UNK

In article . net, "Bill Sohl"
writes:

"N2EY" wrote in message
...
In article , Paul W. Schleck
writes:

In (N2EY)
writes:


In article om, "Dee
D.
Flint" writes:

Basically I think the ARRL Board knows that the free upgrades means
that
their proposal probably will not be adopted in this form. The FCC has
never
gone along with free upgrades before and there is no evidence that they
would do so now. However, I believe they tossed it in as another idea
for
the FCC to consider in developing whatever the FCC decides to do, if
they
decide to do anything at all.

That's probably correct, Dee. And that's what bothers me!

As you say, FCC has never done free upgrades, and the last time the
issue
came
up (98-143), the ARRL proposal was for existing Novices (!) and Tech
Pluses
to
get free upgrade to General. Of course, FCC said "no way", and has had
no
problem whatever keeping the closed-to-new-issues classes in their
database.

So why propose something FCC obviously isn't going to do? Just wastes
everybody's time.

More important, it diverts attention from the other issues.

oh wait, I think I just answered my own question...;-)

73 de Jim, N2EY

I brought this subject up with someone in the League. This exact
thread, actually. I was told that the ARRL BoD sincerely believes (take
at face value, or not) that failure to upgrade licensees in the FCC R&O
for WT 98-143 was not a final "no" answer.

Maybe it wasn't. But are such freebies really a good idea?

Here's your options:

We currently have essentially a 6 license system in place (even though
several licenses are no longer issued). To go from that system
to the one proposed by ARRL leaves three options as I see it:

1. The one-time free upgrade process as put forth by ARRL which takes
nothing away from anyone

Hold on a sec.

Right now there are about 105,000 Extras. And we have a few slices of
choice kHz on 4 HF bands. In my experience, QRM in these subbands is usually
less than elsewhere in the same band because relatively few US hams have access
to them.

If all 83,000 Advanceds get a free upgrade to Extra, they'll have access to
those choice slices and they'll probably increase the QRM level. So giving them
a free upgrade *does* take something away from existing Extras.

Same situation for Generals.
elsewhere in the same band

and immediately gets everyone into the
new 3 license system,

But nobody says why that is such a big priority, when it wasn't 4 years ago.

or

2. Go to the new system but "grandfather" those on current but no
longer to be issued license classes which takes nothing from anyone but
presents a dual system of licenses, rules and regulations which would
likly exist for decades until those with licenses no longer being issued
as new ended up SK or otherwise dropped from our ranks

or upgraded! Have you forgotten that any of the closed off classes can
upgrade with the required tests? The fact that so few Advanceds have
upgraded in almost 4 years is quite interesting, don't you think? Number
of Advanceds is down by only about 16%, and that includes both upgrades
and expirations.

or,

3. Implement the ARRL 3 licnense system and downgrade some
folks to new Novice (i.e. the Techs) or General (i.e the Advanced).
This last scenario takes away privileges and we all know how well
that went down in the late 60's Incentive Licensing implementation.

Or

4. Do something else.

To me the answer is clear...and, I suspect so is it also to ARRL which
is why the proposal includes free upgrades.

Why should FCC allow free upgrades today, when they said no in 1999? What has
changed?

Rather, it is just one of
the unresolved loose ends that was deliberately not tied up until better
consensus emerged from the amateur radio community about things like
Novice band refarming, etc. The League official noted that the ARRL's
band refarming proposal, RM-10413, has been sitting on an FCC official's
desk for about two years now (he claims to know the exact FCC official,
but did not name him). Because of this, as long a wait, if not longer,
is expected on a "final" answer concerning automatic upgrading.

I say we should judge by actions. When FCC thinksa proposal is a good or
bad
idea, they act. How long did the whole 98-143 process take, from initial
release of the NPRM to the new rules in April 2000?

More important, what would a lack of free upgrades hurt? Is it really such
a
burden to require an Advanced to pass Element 4, or a Tech to pass Element
3,
in order to get the next higher grade of license?

See options 2 and 3 above.

The rules for the 6 license classes are already in place. So what's the
problem?

73 de Jim, N2EY

"N2EY" wrote in message
...
In article . net, "Bill
Sohl"
writes:

"N2EY" wrote in message
...
In article , Paul W. Schleck
writes:

In (N2EY)
writes:


In article om,
"Dee
D.
Flint" writes:

Basically I think the ARRL Board knows that the free upgrades means
that
their proposal probably will not be adopted in this form. The FCC
has
never
gone along with free upgrades before and there is no evidence that
they
would do so now. However, I believe they tossed it in as another
idea
for
the FCC to consider in developing whatever the FCC decides to do, if
they
decide to do anything at all.

That's probably correct, Dee. And that's what bothers me!

As you say, FCC has never done free upgrades, and the last time the
issue
came
up (98-143), the ARRL proposal was for existing Novices (!) and Tech
Pluses
to
get free upgrade to General. Of course, FCC said "no way", and has
had
no
problem whatever keeping the closed-to-new-issues classes in their
database.

So why propose something FCC obviously isn't going to do? Just wastes
everybody's time.

More important, it diverts attention from the other issues.

oh wait, I think I just answered my own question...;-)

73 de Jim, N2EY

I brought this subject up with someone in the League. This exact
thread, actually. I was told that the ARRL BoD sincerely believes
(take
at face value, or not) that failure to upgrade licensees in the FCC
R&O
for WT 98-143 was not a final "no" answer.

Maybe it wasn't. But are such freebies really a good idea?

Here's your options:

We currently have essentially a 6 license system in place (even though
several licenses are no longer issued). To go from that system
to the one proposed by ARRL leaves three options as I see it:

1. The one-time free upgrade process as put forth by ARRL which takes
nothing away from anyone

Hold on a sec.

Right now there are about 105,000 Extras. And we have a few slices of
choice kHz on 4 HF bands. In my experience, QRM in these subbands is
usually
less than elsewhere in the same band because relatively few US hams have
access
to them.

If all 83,000 Advanceds get a free upgrade to Extra, they'll have access
to
those choice slices and they'll probably increase the QRM level. So giving
them
a free upgrade *does* take something away from existing Extras.

Like all those Advanced are on the air now. Give me a break.
83,000 advanced today who are either SK, inactive or just
don't see the need to upgrade and you expect even a measurable
increase in QRM because some of them may suddenly start
operating in the Extra only segments.

Same situation for Generals.
elsewhere in the same band

and immediately gets everyone into the
new 3 license system,

But nobody says why that is such a big priority, when it wasn't 4 years
ago.

I suspect the FCC four years ago (5 years ago now) expected change
over time. You are free to voice your own thoughts on need or not.

or

2. Go to the new system but "grandfather" those on current but no
longer to be issued license classes which takes nothing from anyone but
presents a dual system of licenses, rules and regulations which would
likly exist for decades until those with licenses no longer being issued
as new ended up SK or otherwise dropped from our ranks

or upgraded! Have you forgotten that any of the closed off classes can
upgrade with the required tests? The fact that so few Advanceds have
upgraded in almost 4 years is quite interesting, don't you think? Number
of Advanceds is down by only about 16%, and that includes both upgrades
and expirations.

Repeat my comment above about the unlikly QRM from former
advanced being in Extra segments...if freely upgraded.

or,

3. Implement the ARRL 3 licnense system and downgrade some
folks to new Novice (i.e. the Techs) or General (i.e the Advanced).
This last scenario takes away privileges and we all know how well
that went down in the late 60's Incentive Licensing implementation.

Or

4. Do something else.

I identified the ONLY three options on a general basis. You propose
something else but do not specify what that is. Either there is
nothing else as an option and you know it or, there is another
option but you don't wish for anyone to know what it is.
The ball is in your court. Only three options exist unless you can provide
a real 4th option.

To me the answer is clear...and, I suspect so is it also to ARRL which
is why the proposal includes free upgrades.

Why should FCC allow free upgrades today, when they said no in 1999? What
has
changed?

I don't care. In the end the FCC will decide. There's no need for me
to explain or even understand why the FCC might allow it.

Rather, it is just one of
the unresolved loose ends that was deliberately not tied up until
better
consensus emerged from the amateur radio community about things like
Novice band refarming, etc. The League official noted that the ARRL's
band refarming proposal, RM-10413, has been sitting on an FCC
official's
desk for about two years now (he claims to know the exact FCC
official,
but did not name him). Because of this, as long a wait, if not
longer,
is expected on a "final" answer concerning automatic upgrading.

I say we should judge by actions. When FCC thinksa proposal is a good
or
bad
idea, they act. How long did the whole 98-143 process take, from
initial
release of the NPRM to the new rules in April 2000?

More important, what would a lack of free upgrades hurt? Is it really
such
a
burden to require an Advanced to pass Element 4, or a Tech to pass
Element
3,
in order to get the next higher grade of license?

See options 2 and 3 above.

The rules for the 6 license classes are already in place. So what's the
problem?

Which requires enforcement authorities to keep tabs on 6
different sets of spectrum authority. You can disagree that it isn't
significant, but I'd bet it IS an issue in the FCC and other
government mindsets. YMMV.

Cheers,
Bill K2UNK

In article t, "Bill Sohl"
writes:

Here's your options:

We currently have essentially a 6 license system in place (even though
several licenses are no longer issued). To go from that system
to the one proposed by ARRL leaves three options as I see it:

1. The one-time free upgrade process as put forth by ARRL which takes
nothing away from anyone

Hold on a sec.

Right now there are about 105,000 Extras. And we have a few slices of
choice kHz on 4 HF bands. In my experience, QRM in these subbands is
usually
less than elsewhere in the same band because relatively few US hams have
access
to them.

If all 83,000 Advanceds get a free upgrade to Extra, they'll have access
to
those choice slices and they'll probably increase the QRM level. So giving
them
a free upgrade *does* take something away from existing Extras.

Like all those Advanced are on the air now. Give me a break.

If they're not on the air, there's no reason to give them upgrades,
is there?

83,000 advanced today who are either SK, inactive or just
don't see the need to upgrade and you expect even a measurable
increase in QRM because some of them may suddenly start
operating in the Extra only segments.

Then just leave 'em be!

Same situation for Generals.
elsewhere in the same band

and immediately gets everyone into the
new 3 license system,

But nobody says why that is such a big priority, when it wasn't 4 years
ago.

I suspect the FCC four years ago (5 years ago now) expected change
over time. You are free to voice your own thoughts on need or not.

They've gotten change over time, too.

or

2. Go to the new system but "grandfather" those on current but no
longer to be issued license classes which takes nothing from anyone but
presents a dual system of licenses, rules and regulations which would
likly exist for decades until those with licenses no longer being issued
as new ended up SK or otherwise dropped from our ranks

or upgraded! Have you forgotten that any of the closed off classes can
upgrade with the required tests? The fact that so few Advanceds have
upgraded in almost 4 years is quite interesting, don't you think? Number
of Advanceds is down by only about 16%, and that includes both upgrades
and expirations.

Repeat my comment above about the unlikly QRM from former
advanced being in Extra segments...if freely upgraded.

Then what's the problem?

or,

3. Implement the ARRL 3 licnense system and downgrade some
folks to new Novice (i.e. the Techs) or General (i.e the Advanced).
This last scenario takes away privileges and we all know how well
that went down in the late 60's Incentive Licensing implementation.

Or

4. Do something else.

I identified the ONLY three options on a general basis. You propose
something else but do not specify what that is. Either there is
nothing else as an option and you know it or, there is another
option but you don't wish for anyone to know what it is.
The ball is in your court. Only three options exist unless you can provide
a real 4th option.

OK, do this:

Leave General, Advanced and Extra privs alone.

"NewNovices" get privileges to be described elsewhere.

Existing Novice privileges change to those for "NewNovices"

Below 30 MHz, existing Tech Pluses get the same privs as "NewNovices".

Above 30 MHz, existing Techs and Tech Pluses continue to have what they have
now. (everything)

If it decided to eliminate Element 1 for the "NewNovice", then Techs would get
"NewNovice" privileges below 30 MHz.

Simple, easy and no giveaways.

To me the answer is clear...and, I suspect so is it also to ARRL which
is why the proposal includes free upgrades.

Why should FCC allow free upgrades today, when they said no in 1999? What
has
changed?

I don't care. In the end the FCC will decide. There's no need for me
to explain or even understand why the FCC might allow it.

That's good - won;t have to argue against it as much.

Rather, it is just one of
the unresolved loose ends that was deliberately not tied up until
better
consensus emerged from the amateur radio community about things like
Novice band refarming, etc. The League official noted that the ARRL's
band refarming proposal, RM-10413, has been sitting on an FCC
official's
desk for about two years now (he claims to know the exact FCC
official,
but did not name him). Because of this, as long a wait, if not
longer,
is expected on a "final" answer concerning automatic upgrading.

I say we should judge by actions. When FCC thinksa proposal is a good
or
bad
idea, they act. How long did the whole 98-143 process take, from
initial
release of the NPRM to the new rules in April 2000?

More important, what would a lack of free upgrades hurt? Is it really
such
a
burden to require an Advanced to pass Element 4, or a Tech to pass
Element
3,
in order to get the next higher grade of license?

See options 2 and 3 above.

The rules for the 6 license classes are already in place. So what's the
problem?

Which requires enforcement authorities to keep tabs on 6
different sets of spectrum authority.

You can disagree that it isn't
significant, but I'd bet it IS an issue in the FCC and other
government mindsets.

Suppose we do my Option 4.

FCC has to keep track of four privsets below 30 MHz and 2 above.

73 de Jim, N2EY

"N2EY" wrote in message
...
In article t, "Bill
Sohl"
writes:

[snip]

If all 83,000 Advanceds get a free upgrade to Extra, they'll have
access
to
those choice slices and they'll probably increase the QRM level. So
giving
them
a free upgrade *does* take something away from existing Extras.

Jim,

I'm willing to share the Extra sub-bands with a few others.

Be careful ... your "not in my sandbox" motives are showing.

Like all those Advanced are on the air now. Give me a break.

If they're not on the air, there's no reason to give them upgrades,
is there?

They'll get upgrades, even if they're SKs whose family hasn't
sent in their license for cancellation - so what?

83,000 advanced today who are either SK, inactive or just
don't see the need to upgrade and you expect even a measurable
increase in QRM because some of them may suddenly start
operating in the Extra only segments.

Then just leave 'em be!

That would require essentially maintaining the status quo, which
is unacceptable.

The FCC wants to simplify - the ARRL wants to create a viable
entry level class with meaningful HF privs and reasonable power
limits.

After careful consideration of Ed Hare's (personal, not ARRL)
comments on the subject on eHam.net, I (personally, not as NCI)
think it makes the best sense as a one-shot deal as a way forward
to a license/priv structure that makes sense for the future.

YM will, of course V ...

73,
Carl - wk3c

In article , "Carl R. Stevenson"
writes:

"N2EY" wrote in message
...
In article t, "Bill
Sohl"
writes:

[snip]

If all 83,000 Advanceds get a free upgrade to Extra, they'll have
access
to
those choice slices and they'll probably increase the QRM level. So
giving
them
a free upgrade *does* take something away from existing Extras.

Jim,

I'm willing to share the Extra sub-bands with a few others.

Only a few? I'm willing to share them with as many as can pass the
required tests. Particularly the *written* tests.

Be careful ... your "not in my sandbox" motives are showing.

You're the one willing to share with "a few"....

And I do recall someone saying they'd **NEVER** support a reduction
in the **WRITTEN** test requirements. Yet now I see that same person
supporting free upgrades that involve not even having to take *written*
tests...

Like all those Advanced are on the air now. Give me a break.

If they're not on the air, there's no reason to give them upgrades,
is there?

They'll get upgrades, even if they're SKs whose family hasn't
sent in their license for cancellation - so what?

Why not upgrade all existing hams except Novices to Extra, then?

83,000 advanced today who are either SK, inactive or just
don't see the need to upgrade and you expect even a measurable
increase in QRM because some of them may suddenly start
operating in the Extra only segments.

Then just leave 'em be!

That would require essentially maintaining the status quo, which
is unacceptable.

Why?

The FCC wants to simplify -

Says who?

I recall that FCC **REJECTED** the ARRL proposal to free-upgrade Tech Pluses
and Novices to General back in 1998-99. And even though ARRL proposed keeping
the Advanced open, FCC rejected that too.

In fact it was *FCC's* idea to keep the Novice and Advanced as closed-off
license classes, rather than handing out free upgrades.

What has changed in the four years since then that now requires handing out
over 82,000 free passes to Extra, and over 322,000 free passes to General?

the ARRL wants to create a viable
entry level class with meaningful HF privs and reasonable power limits.

And that part is a good idea! In fact, it's almost identical to what I proposed
here more than 2 years ago. Except I'd require 5 wpm code...

But that doesn't explain the need for over 400,000 free upgrades.

Of course if the Novice is reopened with new HF privs, Tech Pluses should get
those same privs. And if the code test isn't required for "NewNovices", then
Techs should get those same HF privs.

After careful consideration of Ed Hare's (personal, not ARRL)
comments on the subject on eHam.net

I'll ask again for a link to those comments.

I (personally, not as NCI)
think it makes the best sense as a one-shot deal as a way forward
to a license/priv structure that makes sense for the future.

Even though it means a one-shot reduction in written test requirements
for over 400,000 hams. That's almost 60% of those licensed today.

Here's another thought: Rules changes like that don't happen overnight -
there's always a time delay between when a rules change is announced and the
new rules take effect. So if FCC simply accepted ARRL's proposal tomorrow,
they'd probably make it effective a few months hence.

So someone without a license could just take the Tech before the changes take
place, and then ride the free upgrade bus to General.

I'd really like to see a link to Ed's arguments...

Or maybe someone can repost them here...

73 de Jim, N2EY

N2EY wrote:

In article , "Carl R. Stevenson"
writes:


"N2EY" wrote in message
...

In article t, "Bill

Sohl"

writes:


[snip]


If all 83,000 Advanceds get a free upgrade to Extra, they'll have

access

to

those choice slices and they'll probably increase the QRM level. So

giving

them

a free upgrade *does* take something away from existing Extras.

Jim,

I'm willing to share the Extra sub-bands with a few others.


Only a few? I'm willing to share them with as many as can pass the
required tests. Particularly the *written* tests.

Be careful ... your "not in my sandbox" motives are showing.


You're the one willing to share with "a few"....

And I do recall someone saying they'd **NEVER** support a reduction
in the **WRITTEN** test requirements. Yet now I see that same person
supporting free upgrades that involve not even having to take *written*
tests...

Technically he's right Jim. He isn't supporting any reduction in the
writtens. He's supporting not having to take a test *at all*. There is a
difference, you know!


Like all those Advanced are on the air now. Give me a break.


If they're not on the air, there's no reason to give them upgrades,
is there?

They'll get upgrades, even if they're SKs whose family hasn't
sent in their license for cancellation - so what?


Why not upgrade all existing hams except Novices to Extra, then?

83,000 advanced today who are either SK, inactive or just
don't see the need to upgrade and you expect even a measurable
increase in QRM because some of them may suddenly start
operating in the Extra only segments.

Then just leave 'em be!

That would require essentially maintaining the status quo, which
is unacceptable.


Why?

The FCC wants to simplify -


Says who?

I recall that FCC **REJECTED** the ARRL proposal to free-upgrade Tech Pluses
and Novices to General back in 1998-99. And even though ARRL proposed keeping
the Advanced open, FCC rejected that too.

In fact it was *FCC's* idea to keep the Novice and Advanced as closed-off
license classes, rather than handing out free upgrades.

What has changed in the four years since then that now requires handing out
over 82,000 free passes to Extra, and over 322,000 free passes to General?


the ARRL wants to create a viable
entry level class with meaningful HF privs and reasonable power limits.


And that part is a good idea! In fact, it's almost identical to what I proposed
here more than 2 years ago. Except I'd require 5 wpm code...

But that doesn't explain the need for over 400,000 free upgrades.

Of course if the Novice is reopened with new HF privs, Tech Pluses should get
those same privs. And if the code test isn't required for "NewNovices", then
Techs should get those same HF privs.

After careful consideration of Ed Hare's (personal, not ARRL)
comments on the subject on eHam.net


I'll ask again for a link to those comments.


I think that when you scratch the surface of most people that support
reductions in the Morse code testing, you will find that they also
support reduction or elimination of the rest of the testing regimen.
There are exceptions, but they prove the rule IMO.


I (personally, not as NCI)
think it makes the best sense as a one-shot deal as a way forward
to a license/priv structure that makes sense for the future.


Even though it means a one-shot reduction in written test requirements
for over 400,000 hams. That's almost 60% of those licensed today.

By golly, that's a lot more high level hams!

Here's another thought: Rules changes like that don't happen overnight -
there's always a time delay between when a rules change is announced and the
new rules take effect. So if FCC simply accepted ARRL's proposal tomorrow,
they'd probably make it effective a few months hence.

So someone without a license could just take the Tech before the changes take
place, and then ride the free upgrade bus to General.

Yup!

I'd really like to see a link to Ed's arguments...

Me too! I want to see if he can convince me of something I'd said I'd
never support!

- Mike KB3EIA -

"N2EY" wrote in message
...
In article , "Carl R. Stevenson"
writes:

"N2EY" wrote in message
...
In article t, "Bill
Sohl"
writes:

[snip]

If all 83,000 Advanceds get a free upgrade to Extra, they'll have
access
to
those choice slices and they'll probably increase the QRM level. So
giving
them
a free upgrade *does* take something away from existing Extras.

Jim,

I'm willing to share the Extra sub-bands with a few others.

Only a few? I'm willing to share them with as many as can pass the
required tests. Particularly the *written* tests.

Be careful ... your "not in my sandbox" motives are showing.

You're the one willing to share with "a few"....

You're squirming pretty hard and stretching pretty far with your attempt
to twist my use of the words "a few others" into something you know
damned well I didn't mean the way you're trying to spin it ...

And I do recall someone saying they'd **NEVER** support a reduction
in the **WRITTEN** test requirements.

I'm not ... I'm supporting the establishment of a reasonable, viable
entry level class with appropriate testing and restrictions.

Yet now I see that same person
supporting free upgrades that involve not even having to take *written*
tests...

As Ed pointed out, the difference between the Tech and General written
tests is not that large - it's a one-shot deal to "make things right" in a
way
where nobody loses privs, and as Bill pointed out, those Techs are already
authorized 1500W at frequencies that the FCC and anyone with any knowledge
of RF safety knows are more "risky" than HF.

Like all those Advanced are on the air now. Give me a break.

If they're not on the air, there's no reason to give them upgrades,
is there?

They'll get upgrades, even if they're SKs whose family hasn't
sent in their license for cancellation - so what?

Why not upgrade all existing hams except Novices to Extra, then?

Because that doesn't comport with either the FCC's or the ARRL's
(or my) desire to have some reason for folks to learn more to upgrade.

[snip]

After careful consideration of Ed Hare's (personal, not ARRL)
comments on the subject on eHam.net

I'll ask again for a link to those comments.

Go to eham.net (or use Google) ... I don't have the URL direct
to Ed's comments handy ...


I (personally, not as NCI)
think it makes the best sense as a one-shot deal as a way forward
to a license/priv structure that makes sense for the future.

Even though it means a one-shot reduction in written test requirements
for over 400,000 hams. That's almost 60% of those licensed today.

Again, the differences are not that great (in content - I know you have
a BIG hangup about the number of questions on the test ...)

Here's another thought: Rules changes like that don't happen overnight -
there's always a time delay between when a rules change is announced and
the
new rules take effect. So if FCC simply accepted ARRL's proposal tomorrow,
they'd probably make it effective a few months hence.

They could make a rules change effective 30 days from publication in the
Federal Register ...

So someone without a license could just take the Tech before the changes
take
place, and then ride the free upgrade bus to General.

Give me a break ... your arguments are just plain lame and your "someone
might
get privs without taking a test with the same number of questions as I took"
is
REALLY showing.

I'd really like to see a link to Ed's arguments...

Go find them - you know how to google.

36-1/2 :-)
Carl - wk3c

Carl R. Stevenson wrote:
"N2EY" wrote in message

Jim,

I'm willing to share the Extra sub-bands with a few others.

So am I. They need to be tested though, and they need to take the test
that other Extra's take.

Be careful ... your "not in my sandbox" motives are showing.

as are your motives.


Like all those Advanced are on the air now. Give me a break.

If they're not on the air, there's no reason to give them upgrades,
is there?


They'll get upgrades, even if they're SKs whose family hasn't
sent in their license for cancellation - so what?

83,000 advanced today who are either SK, inactive or just
don't see the need to upgrade and you expect even a measurable
increase in QRM because some of them may suddenly start
operating in the Extra only segments.

Then just leave 'em be!


That would require essentially maintaining the status quo, which
is unacceptable.

Why? What happens if the staus quo is maintaned?

The FCC wants to simplify - the ARRL wants to create a viable
entry level class with meaningful HF privs and reasonable power
limits.

On what relevant statements do you base this?

After careful consideration of Ed Hare's (personal, not ARRL)
comments on the subject on eHam.net, I (personally, not as NCI)
think it makes the best sense as a one-shot deal as a way forward
to a license/priv structure that makes sense for the future.

As a person that would never support a reduction in the written test
requirements, how do you support your rationale?

Do you now support a reduction in the test requirements? Obviously the
answer is yes.

Are these benificiaries of the so called "one shot deal" qualified to
operate at the level to which they will be advanced?

Assuming your answer is yes, what is the reasoning behind those who
come after the "one shot deal" to have to take a more difficult test?

- Mike KB3EIA -

In article , Mike Coslo
writes:

Carl R. Stevenson wrote:
"N2EY" wrote in message

Jim,

I'm willing to share the Extra sub-bands with a few others.

Only a few?

Fun fact:

When I got my Extra there were fewer than 10,000 others (other Extras, that
is). Now there are over 104,000 others. Doesn't bother me a bit. The more the
merrier - IF they pass the tests.

So am I. They need to be tested though, and they need to take the test
that other Extra's take.

Exactly.

Be careful ... your "not in my sandbox" motives are showing.

as are your motives.

As I said before - all who pass the required tests are welcome in *our*
sandbox.

Like all those Advanced are on the air now. Give me a break.

If they're not on the air, there's no reason to give them upgrades,
is there?

They'll get upgrades, even if they're SKs whose family hasn't
sent in their license for cancellation - so what?

83,000 advanced today who are either SK, inactive or just
don't see the need to upgrade and you expect even a measurable
increase in QRM because some of them may suddenly start
operating in the Extra only segments.

Then just leave 'em be!

That would require essentially maintaining the status quo, which
is unacceptable.

Why? What happens if the staus quo is maintaned?

Good question.

The FCC wants to simplify - the ARRL wants to create a viable
entry level class with meaningful HF privs and reasonable power
limits.

On what relevant statements do you base this?

After careful consideration of Ed Hare's (personal, not ARRL)
comments on the subject on eHam.net, I (personally, not as NCI)
think it makes the best sense as a one-shot deal as a way forward
to a license/priv structure that makes sense for the future.

As a person that would never support a reduction in the written test
requirements, how do you support your rationale?

Do you now support a reduction in the test requirements? Obviously the
answer is yes.

Are these benificiaries of the so called "one shot deal" qualified to
operate at the level to which they will be advanced?

Assuming your answer is yes, what is the reasoning behind those who
come after the "one shot deal" to have to take a more difficult test?

That's the real problem - particularly for the Tech-to-General upgrade.

73 de Jim, N2EY