Carl R. Stevenson wrote:
"N2EY" wrote in message
...

In article , "Carl R. Stevenson"
writes:


"N2EY" wrote in message
...

In article t, "Bill

Sohl"

writes:


[snip]


If all 83,000 Advanceds get a free upgrade to Extra, they'll have

access

to

those choice slices and they'll probably increase the QRM level. So

giving

them

a free upgrade *does* take something away from existing Extras.

Jim,

I'm willing to share the Extra sub-bands with a few others.

Only a few? I'm willing to share them with as many as can pass the
required tests. Particularly the *written* tests.

Be careful ... your "not in my sandbox" motives are showing.

You're the one willing to share with "a few"....


You're squirming pretty hard and stretching pretty far with your attempt
to twist my use of the words "a few others" into something you know
damned well I didn't mean the way you're trying to spin it ...


And I do recall someone saying they'd **NEVER** support a reduction
in the **WRITTEN** test requirements.


I'm not ... I'm supporting the establishment of a reasonable, viable
entry level class with appropriate testing and restrictions.

Speaking of spin!



Yet now I see that same person
supporting free upgrades that involve not even having to take *written*
tests...


As Ed pointed out, the difference between the Tech and General written
tests is not that large - it's a one-shot deal to "make things right" in a
way where nobody loses privs, and as Bill pointed out, those Techs are already
authorized 1500W at frequencies that the FCC and anyone with any knowledge
of RF safety knows are more "risky" than HF.

More spin.

Mistake number one is that this doesn't "make things right".

Mistake number two is assuming that this will be a one shot deal.

What is the rationale for the return to more stringent requirements
after the mass upgrade? That will be looked at as a clear disincentive
to adding new hams after the "upgrade" process.



Like all those Advanced are on the air now. Give me a break.

If they're not on the air, there's no reason to give them upgrades,
is there?

They'll get upgrades, even if they're SKs whose family hasn't
sent in their license for cancellation - so what?

Why not upgrade all existing hams except Novices to Extra, then?


Because that doesn't comport with either the FCC's or the ARRL's
(or my) desire to have some reason for folks to learn more to upgrade.

How are you going to counter the argument that the requirements are
suddenly increased after "making things right"?

If a person that that takes the Technician test today is qualified to
be on HF, then they are equally as qualified the day after things are
"made right".

The only way that this can even remotely be "fair" would be to make the
post restructuring test requirements for the entry level license much
easier.

But you'll never support that will you?



After careful consideration of Ed Hare's (personal, not ARRL)
comments on the subject on eHam.net

I'll ask again for a link to those comments.


Go to eham.net (or use Google) ... I don't have the URL direct
to Ed's comments handy ...

I've used both, and haven't found the comments.



I (personally, not as NCI)
think it makes the best sense as a one-shot deal as a way forward
to a license/priv structure that makes sense for the future.


Even though it means a one-shot reduction in written test requirements
for over 400,000 hams. That's almost 60% of those licensed today.


Again, the differences are not that great (in content - I know you have
a BIG hangup about the number of questions on the test ...)


Here's another thought: Rules changes like that don't happen overnight -
there's always a time delay between when a rules change is announced and

the

new rules take effect. So if FCC simply accepted ARRL's proposal tomorrow,
they'd probably make it effective a few months hence.


They could make a rules change effective 30 days from publication in the
Federal Register ...


So someone without a license could just take the Tech before the changes

take

place, and then ride the free upgrade bus to General.


Give me a break ... your arguments are just plain lame and your "someone
might get privs without taking a test with the same number of questions as
I took" is REALLY showing.


Sorry, Carl! The arguments aren't lame.


I'd really like to see a link to Ed's arguments...


Go find them - you know how to google.

Give us a break here Carl! Both of us have tried, and they seem to be
hidden in there. Perhaps they were removed?


- Mike KB3EIA -

Mike Coslo wrote in message ...
Carl R. Stevenson wrote:
"N2EY" wrote in message
...

In article , "Carl R. Stevenson"
writes:

"N2EY" wrote in message
...

In article t, "Bill

Sohl"

writes:


[snip]


If all 83,000 Advanceds get a free upgrade to Extra, they'll have

access

to

those choice slices and they'll probably increase the QRM level. So

giving

them

a free upgrade *does* take something away from existing Extras.

Jim,

I'm willing to share the Extra sub-bands with a few others.

Only a few? I'm willing to share them with as many as can pass the
required tests. Particularly the *written* tests.

Be careful ... your "not in my sandbox" motives are showing.

You're the one willing to share with "a few"....


You're squirming pretty hard and stretching pretty far with your attempt
to twist my use of the words "a few others" into something you know
damned well I didn't mean the way you're trying to spin it ...


And I do recall someone saying they'd **NEVER** support a reduction
in the **WRITTEN** test requirements.


I'm not ... I'm supporting the establishment of a reasonable, viable
entry level class with appropriate testing and restrictions.

Speaking of spin!

By whom? ;-)

As I see it, the ARRL proposal has five distinct parts:

1) A revised entry level license (I call it the "NewNovice" to
differentiate it from existing license classes). This new class would
have different requirements *and* different privileges than the
current entry-level license (Technician). It would essentially be a
reworking of the old Novice license and would require a new question
pool.

2) Putting most of the Tech test stuff into a new revised General test
(because there won't be any more Tech test).

3) Removal of the code test requirement from all but the Extra.

4) Upgrading all existing Techs and Tech Pluses to General

5) Upgrading all existing Advanceds to Extra.

I think 1) and 2) are a very good ideas

Yet now I see that same person
supporting free upgrades that involve not even having to take *written*
tests...

As Ed pointed out, the difference between the Tech and General written
tests is not that large - it's a one-shot deal to "make things right" in a
way where nobody loses privs, and as Bill pointed out, those Techs are already
authorized 1500W at frequencies that the FCC and anyone with any knowledge
of RF safety knows are more "risky" than HF.

More spin.

Mistake number one is that this doesn't "make things right".

Mistake number two is assuming that this will be a one shot deal.

It will be, because after it's done there won't be any more Techs or
Tech Pluses. Or Advanceds. They'll all be Generals or Extras. No new
ones to be
issued.

What is the rationale for the return to more stringent requirements
after the mass upgrade?

Bingo!

Ham A got his General by passing the Tech and riding the free upgrade
bus.

Ham B has to pass the "NewNovice" (which is easier than the Tech) but
also
the revised General (which is harder than the existing General).

Explain to Ham B why she has to meet higher requirements than Ham A
for the same privileges. (I wanna be there when that is explained!)

That will be looked at as a clear disincentive
to adding new hams after the "upgrade" process.

Exactly.

Like all those Advanced are on the air now. Give me a break.

If they're not on the air, there's no reason to give them upgrades,
is there?

They'll get upgrades, even if they're SKs whose family hasn't
sent in their license for cancellation - so what?

Why not upgrade all existing hams except Novices to Extra, then?


Because that doesn't comport with either the FCC's or the ARRL's
(or my) desire to have some reason for folks to learn more to upgrade.

How are you going to counter the argument that the requirements are
suddenly increased after "making things right"?

bwaahaahaa

If a person that that takes the Technician test today is qualified to
be on HF, then they are equally as qualified the day after things are
"made right".

No more Tech tests will be offered after the Great Giveaway.

The only way that this can even remotely be "fair" would be to make the
post restructuring test requirements for the entry level license much
easier.

That's part of the plan.

But you'll never support that will you?

The privileges of the entry level license will be changed to match the
reduced written exam requirements.

After careful consideration of Ed Hare's (personal, not ARRL)
comments on the subject on eHam.net

I'll ask again for a link to those comments.


Go to eham.net (or use Google) ... I don't have the URL direct
to Ed's comments handy ...

I've used both, and haven't found the comments.

Nor I. So I emailed W1RFI and got a nice reply. I don't agree with his
logic but it was good to hear from him. No, I won't repost private
email here.

I (personally, not as NCI)
think it makes the best sense as a one-shot deal as a way forward
to a license/priv structure that makes sense for the future.

Even though it means a one-shot reduction in written test requirements
for over 400,000 hams. That's almost 60% of those licensed today.

Again, the differences are not that great (in content - I know you have
a BIG hangup about the number of questions on the test ...)

More spin...


Here's another thought: Rules changes like that don't happen overnight -
there's always a time delay between when a rules change is announced and

the

new rules take effect. So if FCC simply accepted ARRL's proposal tomorrow,
they'd probably make it effective a few months hence.


They could make a rules change effective 30 days from publication in the
Federal Register ...


So someone without a license could just take the Tech before the changes

take

place, and then ride the free upgrade bus to General.


Give me a break ... your arguments are just plain lame and your "someone
might get privs without taking a test with the same number of questions as
I took" is REALLY showing.


Sorry, Carl! The arguments aren't lame.

Exactly.

I'd really like to see a link to Ed's arguments...


Go find them - you know how to google.

Give us a break here Carl! Both of us have tried, and they seem to be
hidden in there. Perhaps they were removed?

I doubt they were removed, but perhaps I will paraphrase them in a
future post.

But as of now, Carl has not made a convincing case for free upgrades.

73 de Jim, N2EY

(N2EY) wrote in
om:

Mike Coslo wrote in message
...
Carl R. Stevenson wrote:
"N2EY" wrote in message
...

In article , "Carl R. Stevenson"
writes:

"N2EY" wrote in message
...

In article t,
"Bill

Sohl"

writes:


[snip]


If all 83,000 Advanceds get a free upgrade to Extra, they'll
have

access

to

those choice slices and they'll probably increase the QRM level.
So

giving

them

a free upgrade *does* take something away from existing Extras.

Jim,

I'm willing to share the Extra sub-bands with a few others.

Only a few? I'm willing to share them with as many as can pass the
required tests. Particularly the *written* tests.

Be careful ... your "not in my sandbox" motives are showing.

You're the one willing to share with "a few"....


You're squirming pretty hard and stretching pretty far with your
attempt to twist my use of the words "a few others" into something
you know damned well I didn't mean the way you're trying to spin it
...


And I do recall someone saying they'd **NEVER** support a reduction
in the **WRITTEN** test requirements.


I'm not ... I'm supporting the establishment of a reasonable, viable
entry level class with appropriate testing and restrictions.

Speaking of spin!

By whom? ;-)

As I see it, the ARRL proposal has five distinct parts:

1) A revised entry level license (I call it the "NewNovice" to
differentiate it from existing license classes). This new class would
have different requirements *and* different privileges than the
current entry-level license (Technician). It would essentially be a
reworking of the old Novice license and would require a new question
pool.

2) Putting most of the Tech test stuff into a new revised General test
(because there won't be any more Tech test).

3) Removal of the code test requirement from all but the Extra.

4) Upgrading all existing Techs and Tech Pluses to General

5) Upgrading all existing Advanceds to Extra.

I think 1) and 2) are a very good ideas

Yet now I see that same person
supporting free upgrades that involve not even having to take
*written* tests...

As Ed pointed out, the difference between the Tech and General
written tests is not that large - it's a one-shot deal to "make
things right" in a way where nobody loses privs, and as Bill pointed
out, those Techs are already authorized 1500W at frequencies that
the FCC and anyone with any knowledge of RF safety knows are more
"risky" than HF.

More spin.

Mistake number one is that this doesn't "make things right".

Mistake number two is assuming that this will be a one shot deal.

It will be, because after it's done there won't be any more Techs or
Tech Pluses. Or Advanceds. They'll all be Generals or Extras. No new
ones to be
issued.

What is the rationale for the return to more stringent
requirements
after the mass upgrade?

Bingo!

Ham A got his General by passing the Tech and riding the free upgrade
bus.

Ham B has to pass the "NewNovice" (which is easier than the Tech) but
also
the revised General (which is harder than the existing General).

Explain to Ham B why she has to meet higher requirements than Ham A
for the same privileges. (I wanna be there when that is explained!)

That will be looked at as a clear disincentive to adding new hams
after the "upgrade" process.

Exactly.

Like all those Advanced are on the air now. Give me a break.

If they're not on the air, there's no reason to give them
upgrades, is there?

They'll get upgrades, even if they're SKs whose family hasn't sent
in their license for cancellation - so what?

Why not upgrade all existing hams except Novices to Extra, then?


Because that doesn't comport with either the FCC's or the ARRL's (or
my) desire to have some reason for folks to learn more to upgrade.

How are you going to counter the argument that the requirements are
suddenly increased after "making things right"?

bwaahaahaa

If a person that that takes the Technician test today is
qualified to
be on HF, then they are equally as qualified the day after things are
"made right".

No more Tech tests will be offered after the Great Giveaway.

The only way that this can even remotely be "fair" would be to
make the
post restructuring test requirements for the entry level license much
easier.

That's part of the plan.

But you'll never support that will you?

The privileges of the entry level license will be changed to match the
reduced written exam requirements.

After careful consideration of Ed Hare's (personal, not ARRL)
comments on the subject on eHam.net

I'll ask again for a link to those comments.


Go to eham.net (or use Google) ... I don't have the URL direct to
Ed's comments handy ...

I've used both, and haven't found the comments.

Nor I. So I emailed W1RFI and got a nice reply. I don't agree with his
logic but it was good to hear from him. No, I won't repost private
email here.

I (personally, not as NCI)
think it makes the best sense as a one-shot deal as a way forward
to a license/priv structure that makes sense for the future.

Even though it means a one-shot reduction in written test
requirements for over 400,000 hams. That's almost 60% of those
licensed today.

Again, the differences are not that great (in content - I know you
have a BIG hangup about the number of questions on the test ...)

More spin...


Here's another thought: Rules changes like that don't happen
overnight - there's always a time delay between when a rules change
is announced and

the

new rules take effect. So if FCC simply accepted ARRL's proposal
tomorrow, they'd probably make it effective a few months hence.


They could make a rules change effective 30 days from publication in
the Federal Register ...


So someone without a license could just take the Tech before the
changes

take

place, and then ride the free upgrade bus to General.


Give me a break ... your arguments are just plain lame and your
"someone might get privs without taking a test with the same number
of questions as
I took" is REALLY showing.


Sorry, Carl! The arguments aren't lame.

Exactly.

I'd really like to see a link to Ed's arguments...


Go find them - you know how to google.

Give us a break here Carl! Both of us have tried, and they seem to be
hidden in there. Perhaps they were removed?

I doubt they were removed, but perhaps I will paraphrase them in a
future post.

But as of now, Carl has not made a convincing case for free upgrades.

73 de Jim, N2EY


I have said as much before, but a real overhaul of licencing will probably
require all new grades of licence with all new names and all new test
elements. Having read the mail on this proposal, I am convinced that this
is the only way to remove the perception of free upgrades. It is only a
perception really, as after you change things the same name no longer
really means the same thing anyway.

Just for a laugh, let's call the new licences Entry, Average and Superior,
just for the sake of this discussion. The Entry licence could have a low
power restriction and limit HF operation to a few specific subbands. The
Average licence would give everything else, except, say, a short callsign,
which would be reserved for the Superior hams, whilst those of us who know
we really are superior could keep the calls we have, ROTFL!

Of course, there would have to be rules to determine what class of licence
we all end up with. Advanced or Extra would get a Superior licence,
Generals would get an Average licence, and Novices would get an Entry
licence. There would be, say 18 months notice of this coming into effect,
and 12 months experience as a Tech would be required to get an Average
licence, Techs licenced for less than 12 months getting an Entry licence
(which would give them something like Tech+ privileges anyway, but would
probably be a reduction in power). Element 1 would, of course, be abolished
next Tuesday!

Have fun replying!

73 de Alun, N3KIP

On 10 Feb 2004 20:13:36 GMT, Alun wrote:

snip

But as of now, Carl has not made a convincing case for free upgrades.

73 de Jim, N2EY


I have said as much before, but a real overhaul of licencing will probably
require all new grades of licence with all new names and all new test
elements. Having read the mail on this proposal, I am convinced that this
is the only way to remove the perception of free upgrades. It is only a
perception really, as after you change things the same name no longer
really means the same thing anyway.

Precisely. The Extra being issued today bears little resemblance to
the licence of the same name that was issued years ago. Hence the
hostile attutude toward the so-called "Extra-lites".

Renaming and redefining the levels would fix that - although I suspect
that none of the old Extras would ever accept the new category, and
continue to use the old classification as long as they could work a
key - which would by inference make the Superior into the equivalent
of the old Advanced category.......

As an aside - I've been reading through a 1975 copy of the "ARRL
Operating Manual" that I picked up at a hamfest this weekend. Wow -
it was a different world back then in Amateur Radio! Clearly, from
the amount of text dedicated to Morse, message relay, traffic handling
and other such topics, code was king back then! Worth a read, if you
can find one.


Just for a laugh, let's call the new licences Entry, Average and Superior,
just for the sake of this discussion. The Entry licence could have a low
power restriction and limit HF operation to a few specific subbands. The
Average licence would give everything else, except, say, a short callsign,
which would be reserved for the Superior hams, whilst those of us who know
we really are superior could keep the calls we have, ROTFL!

Of course, there would have to be rules to determine what class of licence
we all end up with. Advanced or Extra would get a Superior licence,
Generals would get an Average licence, and Novices would get an Entry
licence. There would be, say 18 months notice of this coming into effect,
and 12 months experience as a Tech would be required to get an Average
licence, Techs licenced for less than 12 months getting an Entry licence
(which would give them something like Tech+ privileges anyway, but would
probably be a reduction in power). Element 1 would, of course, be abolished
next Tuesday!

That's an interesting idea. I'll bet that you're gonna be told why
it's a bad one soon enough, though - many times, too, I'd reckon.....



Have fun replying!

73 de Alun, N3KIP

73, Leo

Alun wrote:

a litany snipped so I can concentrate on your post!

I have said as much before, but a real overhaul of licencing will probably
require all new grades of licence with all new names and all new test
elements. Having read the mail on this proposal, I am convinced that this
is the only way to remove the perception of free upgrades. It is only a
perception really, as after you change things the same name no longer
really means the same thing anyway.

A wise man once told me that without proof to the contrary, perception
becomes truth.


Just for a laugh, let's call the new licences Entry, Average and Superior,
just for the sake of this discussion. The Entry licence could have a low
power restriction and limit HF operation to a few specific subbands. The
Average licence would give everything else, except, say, a short callsign,
which would be reserved for the Superior hams, whilst those of us who know
we really are superior could keep the calls we have, ROTFL!

Of course, there would have to be rules to determine what class of licence
we all end up with. Advanced or Extra would get a Superior licence,
Generals would get an Average licence, and Novices would get an Entry
licence. There would be, say 18 months notice of this coming into effect,
and 12 months experience as a Tech would be required to get an Average
licence, Techs licenced for less than 12 months getting an Entry licence
(which would give them something like Tech+ privileges anyway, but would
probably be a reduction in power). Element 1 would, of course, be abolished
next Tuesday!

Have fun replying!


My proposal would be to keep Technician, General, and Extra.

Technician would be the entry level license, and would have the same
access as today. This would be the license that allows people to get
their feet wet in Ham radio. VHF and up access allows those that only
want repeater access their hobby, and the 6 meter access gives a taste
of the wide world below.

Tech plus has same privileges as now. Grandfathered in

Testing would be at the same level. Lots of RF safety. No one should
have ANY form of Ham license without being well versed in RF Safety.

General has all the access and privileges as they do now.

Testing would be at the same level, but the tests would have more
questions geared towards HF operation. I would add more questions
overall (how many here equate more questions with "harder"?)

Advanced has same privileges as now. Grandfathered in.

Extra has all the access and privileges as they do now.

Test would be similar to what is done now, but will cover more of the
Electronic area of the hobby.

No code test for any of the licenses.

Novice segments will become part of a band plan for those who want to
learn Morse code.


Finally, I would like to address those who wish to "fix" the system.

No proposal fixes the system!!!

Fixing the system would not involve three license classes. Fixing the
system would have only one license class, especially since with the end
of Morse code testing, there is no reason why the applicant could not
study for and take one element that consists of the agreed upon test
material.

But that will never go over, so IMO, the only alternative is to make an
incremental change in the system that we already have that does not
remove privileges, and does not give free upgrades that create more
problems tan they solve.

There ya go! The only real changes are to the testing regimen. No one
loses, no one gains.

- Mike KB3EIA -