In article . net, "Bill Sohl"
writes:

"N2EY" wrote in message
...
In article , "Carl R. Stevenson"
writes:

"N2EY" wrote in message
...
In article , "Carl R. Stevenson"
writes:

"N2EY" wrote in message
...
In article t,
"Bill
Sohl"
writes:

[snip]

If all 83,000 Advanceds get a free upgrade to Extra, they'll have
access
to
those choice slices and they'll probably increase the QRM level.
So
giving
them
a free upgrade *does* take something away from existing Extras.

Jim,

I'm willing to share the Extra sub-bands with a few others.

Only a few? I'm willing to share them with as many as can pass the
required tests. Particularly the *written* tests.

Be careful ... your "not in my sandbox" motives are showing.

You're the one willing to share with "a few"....

You're squirming pretty hard and stretching pretty far with your attempt
to twist my use of the words "a few others" into something you know

[expletive deleted]

well I didn't mean the way you're trying to spin it ...

I'm not squirming or stretching, Carl. Just pointing out some facts. And I
don't
know what you intended to mean - I just know what you actually wrote.
Frankly,
I was very surprised that you support free upgrades without *written*
testing
for over 400,000 US hams

And I do recall someone saying they'd **NEVER** support a reduction
in the **WRITTEN** test requirements.

I'm not ...

Let's get this clear right now.

ARRL proposes that all current Techs and Tech Pluses get a free upgrade to
General with no additional testing.

They also propose that all current Advanceds get a free upgrade to Extra
with no additional testing.

Do you support those free upgrades or not?

I (K2UNK) do...on this "one time" basis.

I (N2EY) don't support it.

Why is it OK because it's a one-time thing?

If you support them, then by definition you are supoorting a reduction in
the written test requirements for those licenses.

Incomplete statement. Supporting a one-time upgrade doesn't
mean anyone supports "permanent" reductions of the written
requirements.

That's a good point. The reduction affects only those who have certain licenses
on a certain date.

But it's still a reduction for a very large number of hams.

THAT is the critical difference.

And it raises a critical question: Why is it OK as a one-time thing but not as
a permanent change?

Now you might argue that it's only a temporary or one-time reduction, but
it's still a reduction.

It is a ONE time reduction.

Agreed - but it's still a reduction. And Carl said he would not support any
reductions in written testing. Now, all of a sudden it's OK because it's a one
time thing.

You and I can disagree about the reason's
to do it, but my support or anyone else's support of the one
time upgrade does NOT mean I or anyone else supports
permanent reductions in requirements.

True.

But why is a one-time reduction OK, and not a permanent one?

And since it affects over 400,000 hams, it's not a small matter.

If it goes through it will be forgotten in a couple of years.

That's what they said 40 years about incentive licensing.

Why, because no one losses any privileges.

Maybe. Or maybe not.

Yet now I see that same person
supporting free upgrades that involve not even having to take *written*
tests...

As Ed pointed out, the difference between the Tech and General written
tests is not that large - it's a one-shot deal to "make things right" in
a
way
where nobody loses privs, and as Bill pointed out, those Techs are
already
authorized 1500W at frequencies that the FCC and anyone with any
knowledge
of RF safety knows are more "risky" than HF.

Then why should *anyone* have to take the General test? If the Tech
written is
adequate for General HF privs for some, why not for all? Why not simply
dump
the General question pools into the Extra, and use the current Tech pool
for General?

If that's what YOU want, then file comments supporting that yourself.

No, it's not what I want.

But how do we argue against those who want it?

Bottom line, 2 years from now no one will care.

How do you know?

In the past 12 months, FCC issued over 20,000 new ham licenses. Most of those
were Techs. Why is it OK for them to get General privileges based on having
passed the 35 question Tech test, and having less than 1 year experience, but
not OK for future hams?

Like all those Advanced are on the air now. Give me a break.

If they're not on the air, there's no reason to give them upgrades,
is there?

They'll get upgrades, even if they're SKs whose family hasn't
sent in their license for cancellation - so what?

I'd expect the FCC will NOT reissue anyone that gets a free upgrade
a new license at all. There's no need to.

So they keep their old licenses. And the database still has their old license
class.

Why not upgrade all existing hams except Novices to Extra, then?

Because that doesn't comport with either the FCC's or the ARRL's
(or my) desire to have some reason for folks to learn more to upgrade.

How do you know what FCC wants?

How do you?

I don't claim to. The person who wrote that something "doesn't comport" is
claiming to know what FCC wants.

Ultimately the FCC will decide.

Just like BPL. Should we not oppose BPL?

I (personally, not as NCI)
think it makes the best sense as a one-shot deal as a way forward
to a license/priv structure that makes sense for the future.

Even though it means a one-shot reduction in written test requirements
for over 400,000 hams. That's almost 60% of those licensed today.

Again, the differences are not that great (in content - I know you have
a BIG hangup about the number of questions on the test ...)

I don;t have any hangups about the tests. I'm all for them.

If the difference isn't so great, why require the General test at all?

If YOU accept that, then file comments as such with the FCC.

I'll file comments to do the opposite. Maybe a proposal, too.

So someone without a license could just take the Tech before the
changes
take
place, and then ride the free upgrade bus to General.

Give me a break ...

What do you mean? That's exactly what a lot of people will do.

Those with no license or an existing Novice will have an incentive
to get a Tech before the rules change and ride the free upgrade
bus to General.

If "lots" of non-hams suddenly became hams by that process I'll
be truly surprised.

20,000 in the past 12 months.

As for the existing novices...that is now
down to about 30,000...assuming everyone of them did what you
suggest.

34,000 or so.

Those with Tech will have a *disincentive* to
actually take (or study for) the General.

Life's a

[expletive deleted]

and then we die.

Apply that philosophy to accepting the code test.

Same for Advanceds and the Extra.

The arte at which advaceds have been upgrading is pathetically
low already.

17% in 4 years. Gotta wonder why. Maybe the code test wasn't a problem after
all....

your arguments are just plain lame

How? Do you think people won't do this?

Some will, but it won't be significant.

How do you know?

and your "someone might
get privs without taking a test with the same number of questions as I
took"
is REALLY showing.

Nobody today can even take the tests I took. You couldn't pass the tests I
took, Carl.

Translation, I did it, so should everyone else.

Nope. Not at all.

It means that I met different qualifications. And I've seen the qualifications,
both written and code, slowly reduced for over a quarter century. And that's
not a good thing.

The tests I took are not the issue. Free upgrades and reduction in written
test requirements are the issue.

The issue is ONE time free upgrades only. No effort is being made to
lower the General or Extra requirements.

Not yet. But a one-time upgrade is one more step. And it paves the way.

Cheers...and add Hong Kong to the list of countries dropping ALL code tests.

That makes what - a dozen countries?

I wonder what HK's written test requirements are.....

73 de Jim, N2EY

N2EY wrote:

In article . net, "Bill Sohl"
writes:


"N2EY" wrote in message
...

In article , "Carl R. Stevenson"
writes:


"N2EY" wrote in message
...

In article , "Carl R. Stevenson"
writes:


"N2EY" wrote in message
...

In article t,

"Bill

Sohl"

writes:


[snip]


If all 83,000 Advanceds get a free upgrade to Extra, they'll have

access

to

those choice slices and they'll probably increase the QRM level.

So

giving

them

a free upgrade *does* take something away from existing Extras.

Jim,

I'm willing to share the Extra sub-bands with a few others.

Only a few? I'm willing to share them with as many as can pass the
required tests. Particularly the *written* tests.

Be careful ... your "not in my sandbox" motives are showing.

You're the one willing to share with "a few"....

You're squirming pretty hard and stretching pretty far with your attempt
to twist my use of the words "a few others" into something you know

[expletive deleted]


well I didn't mean the way you're trying to spin it ...

I'm not squirming or stretching, Carl. Just pointing out some facts. And I
don't
know what you intended to mean - I just know what you actually wrote.

Frankly,

I was very surprised that you support free upgrades without *written*

testing

for over 400,000 US hams


And I do recall someone saying they'd **NEVER** support a reduction
in the **WRITTEN** test requirements.

I'm not ...

Let's get this clear right now.

ARRL proposes that all current Techs and Tech Pluses get a free upgrade to
General with no additional testing.

They also propose that all current Advanceds get a free upgrade to Extra
with no additional testing.

Do you support those free upgrades or not?

I (K2UNK) do...on this "one time" basis.


I (N2EY) don't support it.

Why is it OK because it's a one-time thing?

'tisn't, Jim.


If you support them, then by definition you are supoorting a reduction in
the written test requirements for those licenses.

Incomplete statement. Supporting a one-time upgrade doesn't
mean anyone supports "permanent" reductions of the written
requirements.


That's a good point. The reduction affects only those who have certain licenses
on a certain date.

On the contrary, I believe that they DO support permanent reductions of
the written requirements.


But it's still a reduction for a very large number of hams.


THAT is the critical difference.


And it raises a critical question: Why is it OK as a one-time thing but not as
a permanent change?


Now you might argue that it's only a temporary or one-time reduction, but
it's still a reduction.

It is a ONE time reduction.


Agreed - but it's still a reduction. And Carl said he would not support any
reductions in written testing. Now, all of a sudden it's OK because it's a one
time thing.

ahem....


You and I can disagree about the reason's
to do it, but my support or anyone else's support of the one
time upgrade does NOT mean I or anyone else supports
permanent reductions in requirements.


True.

But why is a one-time reduction OK, and not a permanent one?


And since it affects over 400,000 hams, it's not a small matter.

If it goes through it will be forgotten in a couple of years.


That's what they said 40 years about incentive licensing.


Why, because no one losses any privileges.


Maybe. Or maybe not.

Yet now I see that same person
supporting free upgrades that involve not even having to take *written*
tests...




As Ed pointed out, the difference between the Tech and General written
tests is not that large

Whhhoooaaaahhhh!

And there my friend is the first shot in the next volley that will
attempt to permanently reduce the written requirements!

"The difference betweent the Tech and General written tests is not that
large". How about that?

Lessee.... 1. we don't support reductions in the test requirements

2. we support a one shot upgrade

3. the difference between the Tech and General written
tests is not that large






snip
a

way
where nobody loses privs, and as Bill pointed out, those Techs are

already

authorized 1500W at frequencies that the FCC and anyone with any

knowledge

of RF safety knows are more "risky" than HF.

Then why should *anyone* have to take the General test? If the Tech
written is
adequate for General HF privs for some, why not for all? Why not simply
dump
the General question pools into the Extra, and use the current Tech pool
for General?

If that's what YOU want, then file comments supporting that yourself.


No, it's not what I want.

But how do we argue against those who want it?


Bottom line, 2 years from now no one will care.


How do you know?

In the past 12 months, FCC issued over 20,000 new ham licenses. Most of those
were Techs. Why is it OK for them to get General privileges based on having
passed the 35 question Tech test, and having less than 1 year experience, but
not OK for future hams?

Kinda makes you wonder, eh? I cannot come ot any logical conclusion
that does not include a permanent reduction in the qualifications.

The rest snipped, I gotta go do some housework............

- Mike KB3EIA -

In article , Mike Coslo
writes:

In the past 12 months, FCC issued over 20,000 new ham licenses. Most of
those
were Techs. Why is it OK for them to get General privileges based on having
passed the 35 question Tech test, and having less than 1 year experience,
but
not OK for future hams?

Kinda makes you wonder, eh? I cannot come ot any logical conclusion
that does not include a permanent reduction in the qualifications.

Hiram forbid you EVER lose your rank, status, privileges obtained
under old standards! Cannot that...ever!

The old standards must remain inviolate, never ever changed!

The ONLY ones "qualified" are those who took the same tests
you took.

Yup, you are SO qualified. Nobody else is if they didn't take the
same tests you did. [we get the picture]

The rest snipped, I gotta go do some housework............

Are you QUALIFIED to do housework? :-)

LHA / WMD

"N2EY" wrote in message
...
In article . net, "Bill
Sohl"
writes:

"N2EY" wrote in message
...
In article , "Carl R. Stevenson"
writes:

"N2EY" wrote in message
...
In article , "Carl R. Stevenson"
writes:

"N2EY" wrote in message
...
In article t,
"Bill
Sohl"
writes:

[snip]

If all 83,000 Advanceds get a free upgrade to Extra, they'll
have
access
to
those choice slices and they'll probably increase the QRM
level.
So
giving
them
a free upgrade *does* take something away from existing
Extras.

Jim,

I'm willing to share the Extra sub-bands with a few others.

Only a few? I'm willing to share them with as many as can pass the
required tests. Particularly the *written* tests.

Be careful ... your "not in my sandbox" motives are showing.

You're the one willing to share with "a few"....

You're squirming pretty hard and stretching pretty far with your
attempt
to twist my use of the words "a few others" into something you know

[expletive deleted]

well I didn't mean the way you're trying to spin it ...

I'm not squirming or stretching, Carl. Just pointing out some facts.
And I
don't
know what you intended to mean - I just know what you actually wrote.
Frankly,
I was very surprised that you support free upgrades without *written*
testing
for over 400,000 US hams

And I do recall someone saying they'd **NEVER** support a reduction
in the **WRITTEN** test requirements.

I'm not ...

Let's get this clear right now.

ARRL proposes that all current Techs and Tech Pluses get a free upgrade
to
General with no additional testing.

They also propose that all current Advanceds get a free upgrade to
Extra
with no additional testing.

Do you support those free upgrades or not?

I (K2UNK) do...on this "one time" basis.

I (N2EY) don't support it.

Why is it OK because it's a one-time thing?

Because there's no real harm to anyone...and if you want an
incentive licensing scheme to be retained, this does it plus
it simplifies licensing and regs for the FCC and does it in one
snapshot of time.

If you support them, then by definition you are supoorting a reduction
in
the written test requirements for those licenses.

Incomplete statement. Supporting a one-time upgrade doesn't
mean anyone supports "permanent" reductions of the written
requirements.

That's a good point. The reduction affects only those who have certain
licenses
on a certain date.

But it's still a reduction for a very large number of hams.

Agreed.

THAT is the critical difference.

And it raises a critical question: Why is it OK as a one-time thing but
not as
a permanent change?

Because it harms no one to get to the simplified scheme AND
it then continues with the incentive system as before.

Now you might argue that it's only a temporary or one-time reduction,
but
it's still a reduction.

It is a ONE time reduction.

Agreed - but it's still a reduction. And Carl said he would not support
any
reductions in written testing. Now, all of a sudden it's OK because it's a
one
time thing.

Time and situations change and people change.

You and I can disagree about the reason's
to do it, but my support or anyone else's support of the one
time upgrade does NOT mean I or anyone else supports
permanent reductions in requirements.

True.

Thank you!

But why is a one-time reduction OK, and not a permanent one?

See prior coments on the same thing.

And since it affects over 400,000 hams, it's not a small matter.

If it goes through it will be forgotten in a couple of years.

That's what they said 40 years about incentive licensing.

Big difference. Every General that lost privileges still understands
that loss. With this, no one losses anything.

Why, because no one losses any privileges.

Maybe. Or maybe not.

If maybe not, please point to what privileges will
be lost by which license holders.

Yet now I see that same person
supporting free upgrades that involve not even having to take
*written*
tests...

As Ed pointed out, the difference between the Tech and General written
tests is not that large - it's a one-shot deal to "make things right"
i
a way where nobody loses privs, and as Bill pointed out, those
Techs are already
authorized 1500W at frequencies that the FCC and anyone with any
knowledge of RF safety knows are more "risky" than HF.

Then why should *anyone* have to take the General test? If the Tech
written is
adequate for General HF privs for some, why not for all? Why not simply
dump
the General question pools into the Extra, and use the current Tech
pool
for General?

If that's what YOU want, then file comments supporting that yourself.

No, it's not what I want.

But how do we argue against those who want it?

YOU are assuming someone will file another petition to do that.
I'll worry about reacting/commenting on that...if and when it happens.

Bottom line, 2 years from now no one will care.

How do you know?

SWAG applied with common sense.

In the past 12 months, FCC issued over 20,000 new ham licenses. Most of
those
were Techs. Why is it OK for them to get General privileges based on
having
passed the 35 question Tech test, and having less than 1 year experience,
but
not OK for future hams?

As above, because it will be a one time situation.

Like all those Advanced are on the air now. Give me a break.

If they're not on the air, there's no reason to give them
upgrades,
is there?

They'll get upgrades, even if they're SKs whose family hasn't
sent in their license for cancellation - so what?

I'd expect the FCC will NOT reissue anyone that gets a free upgrade
a new license at all. There's no need to.

So they keep their old licenses. And the database still has their old
license
class.

The database could be updated overnight by replacing all licenses with their
upgraded license. Doing that does not require an actual new paper
license to be issued if Part 97 contains the following statement:

Any license holder whos paper license is Tech is now recognized to be
General and (ditto for Advanced to Ectra).

Why not upgrade all existing hams except Novices to Extra, then?

Because that doesn't comport with either the FCC's or the ARRL's
(or my) desire to have some reason for folks to learn more to upgrade.

How do you know what FCC wants?

How do you?

I don't claim to. The person who wrote that something "doesn't comport" is
claiming to know what FCC wants.

Take it as a best quess then.

Ultimately the FCC will decide.

Just like BPL. Should we not oppose BPL?

Different subject for a different thread.

I (personally, not as NCI)
think it makes the best sense as a one-shot deal as a way forward
to a license/priv structure that makes sense for the future.

Even though it means a one-shot reduction in written test
requirements
for over 400,000 hams. That's almost 60% of those licensed today.

Again, the differences are not that great (in content - I know you
have
a BIG hangup about the number of questions on the test ...)

I don;t have any hangups about the tests. I'm all for them.

If the difference isn't so great, why require the General test at all?

If YOU accept that, then file comments as such with the FCC.

I'll file comments to do the opposite. Maybe a proposal, too.

As is your right to do so.

So someone without a license could just take the Tech before the
changes take place, and then ride the free upgrade bus to General.

Give me a break ...

What do you mean? That's exactly what a lot of people will do.

Those with no license or an existing Novice will have an incentive
to get a Tech before the rules change and ride the free upgrade
bus to General.

If "lots" of non-hams suddenly became hams by that process I'll
be truly surprised.

20,000 in the past 12 months.

We'll likly lose that many to attrition this year alone. Look at
the future expirations per Joe Speroni's web site. There's one
month alone that has (I think) over 10,000 expirations.

As for the existing novices...that is now
down to about 30,000...assuming everyone of them did what you
suggest.

34,000 or so.

minor difference in the scope of this conversation.

Those with Tech will have a *disincentive* to
actually take (or study for) the General.

Life's a

[expletive deleted]

and then we die.

Apply that philosophy to accepting the code test.

God grant us the wisdom to...
Accept the things we cannot change, change those
we can and hopefully have the wisdom to know the difference.

Same for Advanceds and the Extra.

The rate at which advaceds have been upgrading is pathetically
low already.

17% in 4 years. Gotta wonder why. Maybe the code test wasn't a problem
after
all....

No one said it was the only roadblock to all
Advanced hams going to Extra.

your arguments are just plain lame

How? Do you think people won't do this?

Some will, but it won't be significant.

How do you know?

SWAG and common sense. Do you see a floodgate opening
of new hams rushing to become techs before the FCC
implements free upgrades on a certain date?

and your "someone might
get privs without taking a test with the same number of questions as I
took" is REALLY showing.

Nobody today can even take the tests I took. You couldn't pass the
tests I
took, Carl.

Translation, I did it, so should everyone else.

Nope. Not at all.

It means that I met different qualifications. And I've seen the
qualifications,
both written and code, slowly reduced for over a quarter century. And
that's
not a good thing.

And if that is your true meaning, why would you state
that "You (Carl) couldn't pass the tests I (Jim) took, Carl."
Do you really think Carl would be unable to pass the same
written tests if he had to?

The tests I took are not the issue. Free upgrades and reduction in
written
test requirements are the issue.

The issue is ONE time free upgrades only. No effort is being made to
lower the General or Extra requirements.

Not yet. But a one-time upgrade is one more step. And it paves the way.

As you have said.

Cheers...and add Hong Kong to the list of countries dropping ALL code
tests.

That makes what - a dozen countries?

I believe so.

I wonder what HK's written test requirements are.....

I don't really care.

Cheers again,
Bill K2UNK

In article . net, "Bill Sohl"
writes:

"N2EY" wrote in message
...
In article . net, "Bill
Sohl"
writes:


Why is it OK because it's a one-time thing?

Because there's no real harm to anyone...and if you want an
incentive licensing scheme to be retained, this does it plus
it simplifies licensing and regs for the FCC and does it in one
snapshot of time.

On the contrary, Bill, to olde-tyme hammes, the "unqualifications"
(not being licensed under old standards and practices) causes
irreconcileable psychological HARM to those olde-tymers.

They will LOSE some of their bragging rights and rank/status/
privilege that made them so arrogantly "superior." Ho hum.


That's a good point. The reduction affects only those who have certain
licenses
on a certain date.

But it's still a reduction for a very large number of hams.

Agreed.

THAT is the critical difference.

And it raises a critical question: Why is it OK as a one-time thing but not
as
a permanent change?

Because it harms no one to get to the simplified scheme AND
it then continues with the incentive system as before.

"Incentive?" Incentive towards bragging rights, I'm sure.

Such seems to be a very important part of today's amateur radio,
almost as much as morsemanship...

Agreed - but it's still a reduction. And Carl said he would not support any
reductions in written testing. Now, all of a sudden it's OK because it's a
one
time thing.

Time and situations change and people change.

Mr. Expletive_deleted does NOT ALLOW anyone to change their
minds! Hiram forbid that anyone, ever changes their minds!


That's what they said 40 years about incentive licensing.

Big difference. Every General that lost privileges still understands
that loss. With this, no one losses anything.

...except psychological harm. :-)

Why, because no one losses any privileges.

Maybe. Or maybe not.

If maybe not, please point to what privileges will
be lost by which license holders.

The "loss" is very deep, very personal. Their world is collapsing
around them, the sky is falling, and all is lost.


No, it's not what I want.

But how do we argue against those who want it?

YOU are assuming someone will file another petition to do that.
I'll worry about reacting/commenting on that...if and when it happens.

No change! No change! Hold back the dawn! :-)


So they keep their old licenses. And the database still has their old
license
class.

The database could be updated overnight by replacing all licenses with their
upgraded license. Doing that does not require an actual new paper
license to be issued if Part 97 contains the following statement:

Any license holder whos paper license is Tech is now recognized to be
General and (ditto for Advanced to Ectra).

Everything to these olde-tymers is wrapped up in that pretty piece
of paper (suitable for framing). Change cannot happen until that
license certificate is officially modified by an official of the official
government. Officially.


I don't claim to. The person who wrote that something "doesn't comport" is
claiming to know what FCC wants.

Take it as a best quess then.

Mr. Expletive_deleted has previously claimed "insider knowledge."

He KNOWS. Ho hum.

Ultimately the FCC will decide.

Just like BPL. Should we not oppose BPL?

Different subject for a different thread.

Normal misdirection by Mr. Expletive_deleted. :-)


I'll file comments to do the opposite. Maybe a proposal, too.

As is your right to do so.

Absolutely.


20,000 in the past 12 months.

We'll likly lose that many to attrition this year alone. Look at
the future expirations per Joe Speroni's web site. There's one
month alone that has (I think) over 10,000 expirations.

Morsemanship doesn't guarantee immortality?!?!?

Tsk, tsk, tsk!


Life's a

[expletive deleted]

and then we die.

Apply that philosophy to accepting the code test.

God grant us the wisdom to...
Accept the things we cannot change, change those
we can and hopefully have the wisdom to know the difference.

Some cannot be changed, do not permit change that infringes
on their rank/status/privilege. Federals must support their
bragging rights no matter what. :-)


How do you know?

SWAG and common sense. Do you see a floodgate opening
of new hams rushing to become techs before the FCC
implements free upgrades on a certain date?

He WILL "see" such and be inventive in his rationalization of same!

Take that to the bank. :-)


It means that I met different qualifications. And I've seen the
qualifications,
both written and code, slowly reduced for over a quarter century. And
that's
not a good thing.

And if that is your true meaning, why would you state
that "You (Carl) couldn't pass the tests I (Jim) took, Carl."
Do you really think Carl would be unable to pass the same
written tests if he had to?

Finally you getting a glimpse of Mr. Expletive_deleted's motives. :-)

U.S. amateur radio has always been about morsemanship? To
some that is a Maxim.


I wonder what HK's written test requirements are.....

I don't really care.

He is worried. :-)

LHA / WMD

In article . net, "Bill Sohl"
writes:

"N2EY" wrote in message
...
In article . net, "Bill
Sohl"
writes:

"N2EY" wrote in message
...
In article , "Carl R. Stevenson"
writes:

"N2EY" wrote in message
...
In article , "Carl R. Stevenson"
writes:

"N2EY" wrote in message
...
In article t,
"Bill
Sohl"
writes:

[snip]

Let's get this clear right now.

ARRL proposes that all current Techs and Tech Pluses get a free upgrade
to General with no additional testing.

They also propose that all current Advanceds get a free upgrade to
Extra with no additional testing.

Do you support those free upgrades or not?

I (K2UNK) do...on this "one time" basis.

I (N2EY) don't support it.

Why is it OK because it's a one-time thing?

Because there's no real harm to anyone...

I say there *is* real harm to the ARS.

However, let's explore your claim for a bit and see where it leads.

You say that the free upgrades are OK "Because there's no real harm to
anyone...". I've also seen it justified by "the difference between the Tech and
General written tests is not that large".

If that's true, then what would be the harm is simply dumping the General class
question pool completely and using the Technician pool in its place, with
slight modifications to include General HF privs?

Who would be harmed by such a change?

By the same token, we could resurrect the old Advanced written and use it in
place of the Extra.

and if you want an
incentive licensing scheme to be retained, this does it

I disagree! It works as a disincentive. Why should anyone study for an upgrade
if there's a chance for a freebie? Would you you pay $500 for a new computer if
you knew that next month it would go on sale for $300?

plus it simplifies licensing and regs for the FCC and does it in one
snapshot of time.

ARRL proposed similar freebies before and FCC said no, even though it would
simplify the licensing and regs.

If you support them, then by definition you are supoorting a reduction
in the written test requirements for those licenses.

Incomplete statement. Supporting a one-time upgrade doesn't
mean anyone supports "permanent" reductions of the written
requirements.

That's a good point. The reduction affects only those who have certain
licenses on a certain date.

But it's still a reduction for a very large number of hams.

Agreed.

And that's the point: Folks like Carl who said they'd NEVER support ANY
reduction are now supporting a reduction because it's a one-time thing. And
ignoring the fact that it affects a huge number of hams.

Free upgrades for Techs would affect about 322,000 hams. Last year we got about
20,000 new Techs, so the proposed freebie would affect as many existing hams as
the new ones we might get in the next 10-15 years.

THAT is the critical difference.

And it raises a critical question: Why is it OK as a one-time thing but
not as a permanent change?

Because it harms no one to get to the simplified scheme AND
it then continues with the incentive system as before.

I say it does harm people.

But if it harms no one to get the simplified scheme, why not make it permanent?


Now you might argue that it's only a temporary or one-time reduction,
but it's still a reduction.

It is a ONE time reduction.

Agreed - but it's still a reduction. And Carl said he would not support
any
reductions in written testing. Now, all of a sudden it's OK because it's a
one time thing.

Time and situations change and people change.

IOW, Carl's "never" didn't mean "never", it just meant "until I change my
mind".

You and I can disagree about the reason's
to do it, but my support or anyone else's support of the one
time upgrade does NOT mean I or anyone else supports
permanent reductions in requirements.

True.

Thank you!

Time and situations change and people change. Next week or next year....

But why is a one-time reduction OK, and not a permanent one?

See prior coments on the same thing.

Who would be harmed by a permanent reduction?

And since it affects over 400,000 hams, it's not a small matter.

If it goes through it will be forgotten in a couple of years.

That's what they said 40 years about incentive licensing.

Big difference. Every General that lost privileges still understands
that loss.

I lost privileges as an Advanced. And I had to wait 2 years to even try the
Extra, even though I could have passed it the day I lost privileges.

With this, no one losses anything.

If the existing classes are not given free upgrades, nobody loses anything
either.

Why, because no one losses any privileges.

Maybe. Or maybe not.

If maybe not, please point to what privileges will
be lost by which license holders.

Yet now I see that same person
supporting free upgrades that involve not even having to take
*written* tests...

As Ed pointed out, the difference between the Tech and General written
tests is not that large - it's a one-shot deal to "make things right"
i
a way where nobody loses privs, and as Bill pointed out, those
Techs are already
authorized 1500W at frequencies that the FCC and anyone with any
knowledge of RF safety knows are more "risky" than HF.

Then why should *anyone* have to take the General test? If the Tech
written is
adequate for General HF privs for some, why not for all? Why not simply
dump
the General question pools into the Extra, and use the current Tech
pool
for General?

If that's what YOU want, then file comments supporting that yourself.

No, it's not what I want.

But how do we argue against those who want it?

YOU are assuming someone will file another petition to do that.

You're assuming they won't.

I'll worry about reacting/commenting on that...if and when it happens.

And what will you say to them? How will you argue against making the one-time
freebie permanent?

After all, they can quote you and Ed and Carl saying "no one will be harmed"
and "the difference between the Tech and General written tests is not that
large"

What counterarguments can be used against those quotes?

Bottom line, 2 years from now no one will care.

How do you know?

SWAG applied with common sense.

They said the same thing in 1969. I was there.

In the past 12 months, FCC issued over 20,000 new ham licenses. Most of
those were Techs. Why is it OK for them to get General privileges based on
having passed the 35 question Tech test, and having less than 1 year
experience, but not OK for future hams?

As above, because it will be a one time situation.

Sorry, that dog won't hunt.

Like all those Advanced are on the air now. Give me a break.

If they're not on the air, there's no reason to give them
upgrades,
is there?

They'll get upgrades, even if they're SKs whose family hasn't
sent in their license for cancellation - so what?

I'd expect the FCC will NOT reissue anyone that gets a free upgrade
a new license at all. There's no need to.

So they keep their old licenses. And the database still has their old
license class.

The database could be updated overnight by replacing all licenses with their
upgraded license. Doing that does not require an actual new paper
license to be issued if Part 97 contains the following statement:

Any license holder whos paper license is Tech is now recognized to be
General and (ditto for Advanced to Ectra).

Then why wasn't it done in 2000?

Why not upgrade all existing hams except Novices to Extra, then?

Because that doesn't comport with either the FCC's or the ARRL's
(or my) desire to have some reason for folks to learn more to upgrade.

How do you know what FCC wants?

How do you?

I don't claim to. The person who wrote that something "doesn't comport" is
claiming to know what FCC wants.

Take it as a best quess then.

OK. My best guess is that FCC doesn't care.

Ultimately the FCC will decide.

Just like BPL. Should we not oppose BPL?

Different subject for a different thread.

Not at all! You're saying we should just trust FCC. BPL shows what can happen..

I (personally, not as NCI)
think it makes the best sense as a one-shot deal as a way forward
to a license/priv structure that makes sense for the future.

Even though it means a one-shot reduction in written test
requirements
for over 400,000 hams. That's almost 60% of those licensed today.

Again, the differences are not that great (in content - I know you
have
a BIG hangup about the number of questions on the test ...)

I don;t have any hangups about the tests. I'm all for them.

If the difference isn't so great, why require the General test at all?

If YOU accept that, then file comments as such with the FCC.

I'll file comments to do the opposite. Maybe a proposal, too.

As is your right to do so.

let's see....3 classes of license, no free upgrades, imporved writtens...

So someone without a license could just take the Tech before the
changes take place, and then ride the free upgrade bus to General.

Give me a break ...

What do you mean? That's exactly what a lot of people will do.

Those with no license or an existing Novice will have an incentive
to get a Tech before the rules change and ride the free upgrade
bus to General.

If "lots" of non-hams suddenly became hams by that process I'll
be truly surprised.

20,000 in the past 12 months.

We'll likly lose that many to attrition this year alone. Look at
the future expirations per Joe Speroni's web site. There's one
month alone that has (I think) over 10,000 expirations.

And how many will renew in the grace period? You have to look longterm.

As for the existing novices...that is now
down to about 30,000...assuming everyone of them did what you
suggest.

34,000 or so.

minor difference in the scope of this conversation.

Those with Tech will have a *disincentive* to
actually take (or study for) the General.

Life's a

[expletive deleted]

and then we die.

Apply that philosophy to accepting the code test.

God grant us the wisdom to...
Accept the things we cannot change, change those
we can and hopefully have the wisdom to know the difference.

Right. So why not just accept 5 wpm and the existing classes?

Same for Advanceds and the Extra.

The rate at which advaceds have been upgrading is pathetically
low already.

17% in 4 years. Gotta wonder why. Maybe the code test wasn't a problem
after all....

No one said it was the only roadblock to all
Advanced hams going to Extra.

It has been touted as the boogieman for years. Now we see that it wasn't.

And let's suppose FCC enacts the ARRL proposal, and even dumps Element 1 for
Extra as well. And suppose we don't get a huge increase in the number of new
hams, just as we didn't after 2000.

You watch - there will be more proposals to further water down the writtens.

your arguments are just plain lame

How? Do you think people won't do this?

Some will, but it won't be significant.

How do you know?

SWAG and common sense. Do you see a floodgate opening
of new hams rushing to become techs before the FCC
implements free upgrades on a certain date?

Yep. Plus a huge drop in upgrades. Why not? "We're having a one-time sale - get
'em now!"

Back in 1951, there was a similar one-time sale. FCC announced that they were
closing out the Advanced/class A and replacing it with the much harder to get
Extra at the end of 1952. But existing Class A/Advanceds would have the same
privs as Extras. There was a flood of folks upgrading to beat the price
increase.

and your "someone might
get privs without taking a test with the same number of questions as I
took" is REALLY showing.

Nobody today can even take the tests I took. You couldn't pass the
tests I
took, Carl.

Translation, I did it, so should everyone else.

Nope. Not at all.

It means that I met different qualifications. And I've seen the
qualifications, both written and code, slowly reduced for over a quarter
century. And that's not a good thing.

And if that is your true meaning, why would you state
that "You (Carl) couldn't pass the tests I (Jim) took, Carl."
Do you really think Carl would be unable to pass the same
written tests if he had to?

If he had to, maybe. But he didn't have to.

And he couldn't pass the other tests I had to take.

And he didn't do it at 16 years of age, with no professional background. I did.

The tests I took are not the issue. Free upgrades and reduction in
written
test requirements are the issue.

The issue is ONE time free upgrades only. No effort is being made to
lower the General or Extra requirements.

Not yet. But a one-time upgrade is one more step. And it paves the way.

As you have said.

Cheers...and add Hong Kong to the list of countries dropping ALL code
tests.

That makes what - a dozen countries?

I believe so.

I wonder what HK's written test requirements are.....

I don't really care.


bwaahaahaa!

73 de Jim, N2EY

"N2EY" wrote in message
...
In article . net, "Bill
Sohl"
writes:

Free upgrades for Techs would affect about 322,000 hams. Last year we got
about
20,000 new Techs, so the proposed freebie would affect as many existing
hams as
the new ones we might get in the next 10-15 years.


And how could the existing ham community possibly elmer these 300,000+ new
HF users should they all decide to be active shortly following that free
upgrade. I hate to think of the resulting SSB DX pileups as it is pretty
bad now. If a free upgrade goes through and significant numbers move to HF
within a short period of time, I suspect that we'll see a lot more DX
stations "hiding" in CW.

Dee D. Flint, N8UZE

"Dee D. Flint" wrote in message
.com...

"N2EY" wrote in message
...
In article . net, "Bill
Sohl"
writes:

Free upgrades for Techs would affect about 322,000 hams. Last year we
got
about
20,000 new Techs, so the proposed freebie would affect as many existing
hams as
the new ones we might get in the next 10-15 years.


And how could the existing ham community possibly elmer these 300,000+ new
HF users should they all decide to be active shortly following that free
upgrade. I hate to think of the resulting SSB DX pileups as it is pretty
bad now. If a free upgrade goes through and significant numbers move to
HF
within a short period of time, I suspect that we'll see a lot more DX
stations "hiding" in CW.

Which would, I think, foster more hams to learn and use morse code
if they really want that hot DX. And if more hams didn't learn
morse to work those DX stations, that'd give more opportunity
to work them via DX to current code capable hams. In either
case it sounds like something the code enthusiasts should be real
happy about.

Cheers,
Bill K2UNK

And how could the existing ham community possibly elmer these 300,000+
new
HF users should they all decide to be active shortly following that free
upgrade.

My advise is to to buy up ALL the used rigs you can afford and try to
corner the market. The give away price of new equipment will soar with
demand.



I hate to think of the resulting SSB DX pileups as it is pretty
bad now. If a free upgrade goes through and significant numbers move to
HF
within a short period of time, I suspect that we'll see a lot more DX
stations "hiding" in CW.

Can't hide for long ....how long before it will be wall to wall "fone"????

Which would, I think, foster more hams to learn and use morse code


Nope Bill .... it will foster a concerted movement to turn the CW subbands
into SSBville. The mode will die or at best be put into a historical
preserve ...maybe like the bottom 20 kcs of the 30 meter band.


if they really want that hot DX. And if more hams didn't learn
morse to work those DX stations, that'd give more opportunity
to work them via DX to current code capable hams. In either

Bill I wish you were right ...I say IF they were interested in CW DX they
would be there now not waiting for the tooth fairy to leave them the freeby
under the pillow at night

case it sounds like something the code enthusiasts should be real
happy about.

Oh yes Bill I am REAL happy about it ...I can't wait to see the subbands go
the route of "gentleman's" agreement and not defined regulation. The idea
of novice enhancement should have occured years ago with the novices gaining
all CW subbands. But nope the "experts" out there kept them in the ghettos
as 4th class citizens. Attempts years ago to even try to improve this was
met with derision from the establishment. What!!! 5WPM on my belovid bottom
25 kcs. Never ... I will never share this DX with anyone save my speed
peers. What would Hiram say?? So guys don't blame the "foneists" totally
for your troubles as we missed out bigtime in strengthening our ranks and
mode.

Cheers,
Bill K2UNK


73 Bill ....Tom KI3R Belle Vernon Pa.

"Bill Sohl" wrote in message
ink.net...

"Dee D. Flint" wrote in message
.com...

"N2EY" wrote in message
...
In article . net,
"Bill
Sohl"
writes:

Free upgrades for Techs would affect about 322,000 hams. Last year we
got
about
20,000 new Techs, so the proposed freebie would affect as many
existing
hams as
the new ones we might get in the next 10-15 years.


And how could the existing ham community possibly elmer these 300,000+
new
HF users should they all decide to be active shortly following that free
upgrade. I hate to think of the resulting SSB DX pileups as it is
pretty
bad now. If a free upgrade goes through and significant numbers move to
HF
within a short period of time, I suspect that we'll see a lot more DX
stations "hiding" in CW.

Which would, I think, foster more hams to learn and use morse code
if they really want that hot DX. And if more hams didn't learn
morse to work those DX stations, that'd give more opportunity
to work them via DX to current code capable hams. In either
case it sounds like something the code enthusiasts should be real
happy about.

Cheers,
Bill K2UNK

While that could be a supposed "bright spot", I don't think that is a reason
for supporting codeless licenses and free upgrades.

Dee D. Flint, N8UZE