ospam (Larry Roll K3LT) wrote in message ...
In article ,
(William) writes:


(N2EY) wrote in message
.com...
Tech at 5 years old
General at 6
Extra at 7

http://www.arrl.org/news/stories/2004/01/29/1/?nc=1

73 de Jim, N2EY

I think you've finally found Larry's equal.

Billy:

Not hardly. Young Miss Clauson bears the unfortunate burden of being a
New Age, Dumbed-Down "Nickle" Extra.

Larry, you're so quick to tear down the achievements of a child.

In article ,
(William) writes:

Billy:

Not hardly. Young Miss Clauson bears the unfortunate burden of being a
New Age, Dumbed-Down "Nickle" Extra.

Larry, you're so quick to tear down the achievements of a child.

Billy:

Point taken, and I offer all appropriate apologies to Miss Clauson.
However, her achievement, while a fairly notable one ***for a child,***
is no longer noteworthy for anyone over the age of, say, 10 years,
and certainly a meaningless one for an adult. I'd go farther to say
that the the amateur radio licensing requirements of the time when
I was licensed (early '80's) were nothing that could not be easily
achieved by the typical high-school student, even though there were,
in fact, some kids in the single-digit ages who were getting Extra with
the support of their ham parents.

Mattie Clauson's achievement only points accusingly to the fact that
present amateur radio licensing requirements are "dumbed-down" to
such an unreasonably low level that even a 7-year old can attain an
Amateur Extra-class license. And while the novelty of a 7-year old
Extra is certainly "news" in the Amateur Radio community, it does
not point to a secure future for our hobby/service. One must keep in
mind that she had the support of a mother who is also an Extra-class
licensee, and young Mattie was undoubtedly "pushed" along the
licensing process, whether Mrs. Clauson will admit to that or not.
Any of Mattie's young peers, without the support of a licensed parent,
and the material support of a functional station in their home, would
not likely achieve the same results. About the best we can hope for
is that other ham parents will take similar steps to induce their
children to become licensed, but that's about as far as it can go
until they become adults, with their own financial resources and the
adult prerogatives that go with it.

About the best face I can put on this is that young Mattie now has
the rest of her life to "grow" into the hobby. Hopefully, over the
years, she will acquire technical knowledge and operating skills which
will become equivalent to her Amateur Extra status. As of now,
however, she is more of a stunt than the real thing. I have no
doubt that when asked to engage in even a fairly low-level discussion
of technical and operating subjects, she will not be able to give
any reasonable accounting of herself, beyond perhaps the simple
recitation of answers to the exam questions. The news articles
make no mention of her on-the-air involvement in CW or digital
modes, just the fact that she likes HF/SSB phone. Big deal -- a
7-year old who can push a button and talk! I'm sure she can use
a telephone as well! But can she solder a PL-259 onto a piece of
LMR 400 Coax? Can she build a dipole for 40-meters? Can she
set up a Field Day station on her own? Can she build an interface
so she can use PSK-31 and other digital modes on her parents'
computer? Does she even know which end of the soldering iron gets
hot? I have my doubts about all of the above, and I would think
that these should be the minimum skill requirements for ANY
amateur radio license.

Again, none of Mattie's inadequacies are her fault, she is just
the product of her parent's dreams. But I do not consider her
to be my "equal" as an Amateur Extra in any but the most
rudimentary aspects -- those being that she has the ticket and the
privileges. I had fourteen years of experience as an electronics
hobbyist, project builder, and SWL before I ever got my Novice.
As a result, I progressed to Extra at what was, at the time a
notably rapid pace. Anyway, I look forward to working Mattie
someday in CW or one of the digital modes. I just hope I get
the chance, since I will not likely work her on HF phone.

73 de Larry, K3LT

ospam (Larry Roll K3LT) wrote in message ...
I'd go farther to say
that the the amateur radio licensing requirements of the time when
I was licensed (early '80's) were nothing that could not be easily
achieved by the typical high-school student, even though there were,
in fact, some kids in the single-digit ages who were getting Extra with
the support of their ham parents.

The former record holder was an 8 year old in 3rd grade when she
got her Extra.

Back in the days of secret pools, essay and draw-a-diagram exams and
before the Novice or Tech existed, a local ham earned her Class B
license at the FCC office in Philly - a few days after her 10th
birthday.

Mattie Clauson's

Why not use her callsign, Larry?

achievement only points accusingly to the fact that
present amateur radio licensing requirements are "dumbed-down" to
such an unreasonably low level that even a 7-year old can attain an
Amateur Extra-class license.

That's one way to look at it. The way I prefer to look at it is that a
bright and motivated young child set herself a goal and achieved it.

And while the novelty of a 7-year old
Extra is certainly "news" in the Amateur Radio community, it does
not point to a secure future for our hobby/service.

Why not? I don't see anything wrong with young people, or females,
getting
licenses. In fact, I think that sort of thing is just what ham radio
needs *more* of!

One must keep in
mind that she had the support of a mother who is also an Extra-class
licensee,

And a father, and a grandmother, and a great-grandfather who were/are
hams. Why single out her mother?

and young Mattie was undoubtedly "pushed" along the
licensing process, whether Mrs. Clauson will admit to that or not.

Do you know the family? Or is this just a rationalization?

Any of Mattie's young peers, without the support of a licensed parent,
and the material support of a functional station in their home, would
not likely achieve the same results.

So what? Part of what healthy families *DO* is support each other's
needs
and interests. In that family, it's clear that ham radio is a family
thing,
not something one family member does in seclusion from the rest.
That's a
good thing. It brings families together, crosses generational
barriers, helps
build a level of education, maturity and understanding that are
greatly needed.

And there is no better way to help a child learn than to get them
interested in the subject. Geography? Time zones? Math, science,
technology? An interest in ham radio helps with all of those.

(About the best we can hope for
is that other ham parents will take similar steps to induce their
children to become licensed, but that's about as far as it can go
until they become adults, with their own financial resources and the
adult prerogatives that go with it.

It's simply a matter of *SUPPORTING* a child's interests. I know
families that are very musically-oriented, and if a child expresses
any interest in music, an instrument and lessons are provided. Not
pushed - supported. Would you expect a
7 year old to buy her own piano and pay for her own lessons?

I never got any help in the ham radio area from my folks. So I was
delayed a few years in getting started. That doesn't mean other young
hams shouldn't have family support.


About the best face I can put on this is that young Mattie now has
the rest of her life to "grow" into the hobby. Hopefully, over the
years, she will acquire technical knowledge and operating skills which
will become equivalent to her Amateur Extra status.

She got 4 wrong on Element 4. How many did you get wrong on yours?

As of now,
however, she is more of a stunt than the real thing.

How do you know?

I have no
doubt that when asked to engage in even a fairly low-level discussion
of technical and operating subjects, she will not be able to give
any reasonable accounting of herself, beyond perhaps the simple
recitation of answers to the exam questions.

You might be surprised.

And even if true, so what? The license test is the beginning, not the
end, of learning.

The news articles
make no mention of her on-the-air involvement in CW or digital
modes, just the fact that she likes HF/SSB phone.

So? I thought I saw a mention of packet, btw.

Big deal -- a
7-year old who can push a button and talk! I'm sure she can use
a telephone as well!

What would be adequate proof of competency, Larry?

But can she solder a PL-259 onto a piece of
LMR 400 Coax? Can she build a dipole for 40-meters?

Maybe. Neither of those things are on the test.

Tell ya what, Larry, I'll fill a box with parts and you can come over
and build afunctioning ham rig out of them. No instructions, no
elmers, just parts and a book or two. I did it when I was 13. I doubt
you could do it, Larry.

Can she
set up a Field Day station on her own? Can she build an interface
so she can use PSK-31 and other digital modes on her parents'
computer? Does she even know which end of the soldering iron gets
hot? I have my doubts about all of the above, and I would think
that these should be the minimum skill requirements for ANY
amateur radio license.

Why? None of that has ever been required before.

Again, none of Mattie's inadequacies are her fault, she is just
the product of her parent's dreams.

Nonsense, Larry. She's an individual. Kids are not robots.

But I do not consider her
to be my "equal" as an Amateur Extra

Y'know, the irony is that by making such a statement, you prove that
*you* are not up to being *her* equal.

in any but the most
rudimentary aspects -- those being that she has the ticket and the
privileges.

What if there are things she can do better than you?

I had fourteen years of experience as an electronics
hobbyist, project builder, and SWL before I ever got my Novice.

Well, ya got me beat, 'cause I wasn't even alive 14 years before I got
mine.

As a result, I progressed to Extra at what was, at the time a
notably rapid pace.

There are folks who walk into a test session with no ham license and
walk out with an Extra. That was going on before the VE system, too.
The barely-10-year-old I mentioned above had to do 13 wpm sending and
receiving plus the old Class B/General written.

Anyway, I look forward to working Mattie
someday in CW or one of the digital modes. I just hope I get
the chance, since I will not likely work her on HF phone.

Larry, somehow I think that if she saw your posts she might not want
to talk to you......

I don't know whether a particular ham is my "equal" or not. In some
ways I'm probably better, and in other ways the other ham may be
better. Unless we're in a mutually-agreed upon competition, I really
don't care.

I say congratulations to a new Extra and her family. We need more of
that sort of thing.

73 de Jim, N2EY

(N2EY) wrote in message . com...
ospam (Larry Roll K3LT) wrote in message ...

achievement only points accusingly to the fact that
present amateur radio licensing requirements are "dumbed-down" to
such an unreasonably low level that even a 7-year old can attain an
Amateur Extra-class license.

That's one way to look at it. The way I prefer to look at it is that a
bright and motivated young child set herself a goal and achieved it.

I don't see much of a connect between your particular preferences and
the highly-probable reality in these cases. Parents and other
relatives impose expectations on kids all the time. I sure did. I
"motivated" mine any number of times into "achieving" and in some of
those cases they met my expectations just to get me off their backs.

And while the novelty of a 7-year old
Extra is certainly "news" in the Amateur Radio community, it does
not point to a secure future for our hobby/service.

Why not? I don't see anything wrong with young people, or females,
getting
licenses. In fact, I think that sort of thing is just what ham radio
needs *more* of!

That's not what Larry meant. Over the 100 year history of ham radio
maybe we've had what, pick a number, twenty kids under ten licensed?
Versus around 1.5 million total U.S. hams? Those kids have all been
statistical anomalies pure and simple and have not had, nor will they
have any influence at all on the course of the service in the future.

Any of Mattie's young peers, without the support of a licensed parent,
and the material support of a functional station in their home, would
not likely achieve the same results.

Absolutely. How many of these kids *didn't* have a ham in the
immediate family?

So what? Part of what healthy families *DO* is support each other's
needs
and interests. In that family, it's clear that ham radio is a family
thing,
not something one family member does in seclusion from the rest.
That's a
good thing. It brings families together, crosses generational
barriers, helps
build a level of education, maturity and understanding that are
greatly needed.

I think you're over-preaching to the choir again here James.

And there is no better way to help a child learn than to get them
interested in the subject. Geography? Time zones? Math, science,
technology? An interest in ham radio helps with all of those.

Her folks shepherded her into ham radio beacause ham radio is a great
way for kids to learn geography??

(About the best we can hope for
is that other ham parents will take similar steps to induce their
children to become licensed, but that's about as far as it can go
until they become adults, with their own financial resources and the
adult prerogatives that go with it.

I never got any help in the ham radio area from my folks. So I was
delayed a few years in getting started.

Nothing unusual about that. A huge percentage of all of us kid hams
didn't have any particular "parental support" when we became hams. All
my folks cared about was that whatever it was that I was doing with a
soldering iron in the cellar didn't result in the Henny Carr the town
cop dragging me home by the scruff of my neck *again* for commiting
some bush-league juvenile atrocity or another. Worked for them and it
worked for me.

About the best face I can put on this is that young Mattie now has
the rest of her life to "grow" into the hobby. Hopefully, over the
years, she will acquire technical knowledge and operating skills which
will become equivalent to her Amateur Extra status.

She got 4 wrong on Element 4. How many did you get wrong on yours?

No-counter: We all know that there is *no* relationship between
passing the tests and the level of useful knowledge reqired to put
together an HF ham station. This NG has glaring examples of same.

As of now,
however, she is more of a stunt than the real thing.

How do you know?

He doesn't and neither do you. Fact is that it's not hard to find
instances of their folks pressuring kids into outstanding
accomplishments in order to have bragging rights about the kid. Which
I suspect is where Larry is coming from. Whether it's true in Mattie's
case is 100% conjecture.

I have no
doubt that when asked to engage in even a fairly low-level discussion
of technical and operating subjects, she will not be able to give
any reasonable accounting of herself, beyond perhaps the simple
recitation of answers to the exam questions.

You might be surprised.

She's probably somewhere between the opposite poles you two guys live
in.

Tell ya what, Larry, I'll fill a box with parts and you can come over
and build afunctioning ham rig out of them. No instructions, no
elmers, just parts and a book or two.
I did it when I was 13. I doubt
you could do it, Larry.

Virtually all yer kid ham predecessors could cobble rigs together
"Back in my day". It was almost the norm then. A lot higher
percentage of us designed and rolled our own than was the case "in
your day" a decade and a half later. By the time Larry got into ham
radio hombrewing no longer made any sense except in oddball cases so I
doubt he had any reason to even consider building his own rig. Entry
level rigs have been products of the era in which we came into the
service. YMMV and it obviously has.

Again, none of Mattie's inadequacies are her fault, she is just
the product of her parent's dreams.

Nonsense, Larry. She's an individual. Kids are not robots.

C'mon, you know better than that. Seven year olds are about as
compliant as they come. They're "individuals" only to the extent that
their parents and teachers allow them to act independently.

There are folks who walk into a test session with no ham license and
walk out with an Extra. That was going on before the VE system, too.
The barely-10-year-old I mentioned above had to do 13 wpm sending and
receiving plus the old Class B/General written.

I know Janie. Her father was Jesse Bieberman W3KT who is still a
legend. Honer Roll top-ender for decades, phone and cw dx contester,
25wpm with a straight key for 48 straight. Vice Director of the
Atlantic Division for decades and one of the most powerful voices in
Newington in those days. Ran the W3 buro single-handed also for
decades. Was also a private-school high school math instructor. You
think maybe Jane just got up one morning when she was ten and outta
nowhere declared that she was gonna pursue a ham ticket??


73 de Jim, N2EY

w3rv

Brian Kelly wrote:

(N2EY) wrote in message . com...

I think you're over-preaching to the choir again here James.

And there is no better way to help a child learn than to get them
interested in the subject. Geography? Time zones? Math, science,
technology? An interest in ham radio helps with all of those.

Her folks shepherded her into ham radio beacause ham radio is a great
way for kids to learn geography??

Not necessarily, Brian, but studying for an amateur ticket gets kids
fired up about learning. I can certainly see Jim's point about kids
becoming interested in geography, the sciences and math. It didn't work
toward interesting me in geometry though. I was caught reading QST
hidden within my open geometry book.


I never got any help in the ham radio area from my folks. So I was
delayed a few years in getting started.

Nothing unusual about that. A huge percentage of all of us kid hams
didn't have any particular "parental support" when we became hams. All
my folks cared about was that whatever it was that I was doing with a
soldering iron in the cellar didn't result in the Henny Carr the town
cop dragging me home by the scruff of my neck *again* for commiting
some bush-league juvenile atrocity or another. Worked for them and it
worked for me.

For the first few weeks of my interest, my dad actively discouraged me
with talk of amateur radio being a passing fad for me. He had visions
of mounds of equipment gathering dust in a closet. My mother encouraged
me and was able to convince my father that some of the meager family
income should be spent on a transmitter for me if I earned the money for
the receiver from my paper route.

My dad had and has no technical abilities whatever. My mother was
deathly afraid of electricity and wouldn't even clean my ham shack. She
just knew that lightning was going to enter the house via my antennas.
Both parents saw value in amateur radio as a wholesome activity, one
which would nurture an interest in science and possibly lead to a career
in electronics.


I know Janie. Her father was Jesse Bieberman W3KT who is still a
legend. Honer Roll top-ender for decades, phone and cw dx contester,
25wpm with a straight key for 48 straight. Vice Director of the
Atlantic Division for decades and one of the most powerful voices in
Newington in those days. Ran the W3 buro single-handed also for
decades.

....and ran the W3KT outgoing QSL forwarding service for a number of
years.

Dave K8MN

Not necessarily, Brian, but studying for an amateur ticket gets kids
fired up about learning. I can certainly see Jim's point about kids
becoming interested in geography, the sciences and math. It didn't work
toward interesting me in geometry though. I was caught reading QST
hidden within my open geometry book.

Should have been a copy of Playboy..... ;-)








For the first few weeks of my interest, my dad actively discouraged me
with talk of amateur radio being a passing fad for me. He had visions
of mounds of equipment gathering dust in a closet. My mother encouraged
me and was able to convince my father that some of the meager family
income should be spent on a transmitter for me if I earned the money for
the receiver from my paper route.

My dad had and has no technical abilities whatever. My mother was
deathly afraid of electricity and wouldn't even clean my ham shack. She
just knew that lightning was going to enter the house via my antennas.


Reminds me of the story about some little old lady sueing the trolley
company
because they caused a lightning bolt to run thru her bedroom late at night.
What probably happened was the trolley pole comming off the wire causing
an arc to flash. She must have went nuts during a real thunderstorm....

We once had lightning take out a tall tree in the back yard late one night.
Wooden shrapnel all over the back yard; good thing nobody was outside
when that happened. SOme of the light bulbs that were on blew out.
This was back in the early 60's, before line operated solid state
equipment was at all common. The tube stuff (all of which was off)
didn't mind.

In article , Dave Heil
writes:

Brian Kelly wrote:

(N2EY) wrote in message
.com...

I think you're over-preaching to the choir again here James.

And there is no better way to help a child learn than to get them
interested in the subject. Geography? Time zones? Math, science,
technology? An interest in ham radio helps with all of those.

Her folks shepherded her into ham radio beacause ham radio is a great
way for kids to learn geography??

Not necessarily, Brian, but studying for an amateur ticket gets kids
fired up about learning. I can certainly see Jim's point about kids
becoming interested in geography, the sciences and math. It didn't work
toward interesting me in geometry though. I was caught reading QST
hidden within my open geometry book.

I got caught reading a text on electricity. Book was open to the page about
polyphase induction motors, and I had to explain the meaning of a rotating
magnetic field and a squirrel cage rotor to the teacher. In 5th grade.

I never got any help in the ham radio area from my folks. So I was
delayed a few years in getting started.

Nothing unusual about that. A huge percentage of all of us kid hams
didn't have any particular "parental support" when we became hams. All
my folks cared about was that whatever it was that I was doing with a
soldering iron in the cellar didn't result in the Henny Carr the town
cop dragging me home by the scruff of my neck *again* for commiting
some bush-league juvenile atrocity or another. Worked for them and it
worked for me.

For the first few weeks of my interest, my dad actively discouraged me
with talk of amateur radio being a passing fad for me. He had visions
of mounds of equipment gathering dust in a closet. My mother encouraged
me and was able to convince my father that some of the meager family
income should be spent on a transmitter for me if I earned the money for
the receiver from my paper route.

My dad had and has no technical abilities whatever. My mother was
deathly afraid of electricity and wouldn't even clean my ham shack. She
just knew that lightning was going to enter the house via my antennas.
Both parents saw value in amateur radio as a wholesome activity, one
which would nurture an interest in science and possibly lead to a career
in electronics.

'zactly.

Frankly, it was kinda surreal reading Larry's diatribe about that family. We've
been subject to years of
Dr.-Laura-points-of-light-republican-cloth-coat-family- values lectures, and
then a family actually does ham radio together and the kid gets no credit.
Bleah.

I know Janie. Her father was Jesse Bieberman W3KT who is still a
legend. Honer Roll top-ender for decades, phone and cw dx contester,
25wpm with a straight key for 48 straight. Vice Director of the
Atlantic Division for decades and one of the most powerful voices in
Newington in those days. Ran the W3 buro single-handed also for
decades.

...and ran the W3KT outgoing QSL forwarding service for a number of
years.

Yup, great guy, original 1x2 holder, the works.

73 de Jim, N2EY

Dave Heil wrote in message ...
Brian Kelly wrote:

(N2EY) wrote in message . com...

Her folks shepherded her into ham radio beacause ham radio is a great
way for kids to learn geography??

Not necessarily, Brian, but studying for an amateur ticket gets kids
fired up about learning. I can certainly see Jim's point about kids
becoming interested in geography, the sciences and math.

I dunno, I guess but experiences, perceptions and observations vary
all over the lot when it comes to educating kids. Never mind opinions
on the subject. I'll cite my own case. As were all four of my parent's
kids I was a pretty early and prolific reader. Implanting the joy of
reading was the big gift our parents bestowed on us and they both
worked at it. Hard. Once that bug was firmly installed we were pretty
much left alone to find our own paths without much if any "hands-on
participation" in our interests on their parts.

To wit: Geography was one of my hot buttons going way back long before
I had the first clue about ham radio. Usta love to cruise the maps
which came with National Geo. Any maps. Still do. When I finally
bumped into ham radio and disovered that hams could actually
communicate with people in those far off places I'd read about my
course was set: I absolutely was gonna become a ham so I could go
dxing. I did and I still do. It was my interest in geography which led
me to ham radio. I don't give ham radio any credit at all for my
interest in science. If I hadn't already had an interest in science I
wouldn't have developed an interest in ham radio to start with. I was
into building electric motors before I got interested in ham radio for
instance. And in geology, bugs and weather science. I didn't have any
interest at all in math as such until I was halfway thru engineering
school with a General and it finally dawned on me that I was actually
sort of enjoying the stuff.

It didn't work
toward interesting me in geometry though. I was caught reading QST
hidden within my open geometry book.

Geometry was no sweat here but I got tossed outta 10th grade English
class twice for laying out equipment panels at the back of the class.
Then the flaming fairy teach caught Sally Leinhauser and I playing
footsie. Such "activities" apparently really annoy fairies. No
problem, life coulda been a *helluva* lot worse than sitting out in
the hallway with Sally.

During the same year I built an AM BC rcvr which used five of the tiny
AG-1 flashbulb envelope subminiature tubes and stuffed the whole thing
into a small Band-Aid can which I carried in my shirt pocket. Walkman
Numero Uno. I went into biology class one day and strung the wire
antenna to an overhead lamp fixture, put on the earplug "speaker" and
started tuning around. The teacher, good 'ole Floyd Neff finally
noticed the antenna and stormed to the back of the room, "What are you
doing, what is that thing?" I cupped my ear, "Uh, it's my hearing aid,
could you speak up a bit please?" Tossed outta class again.

You brought back a lot of hilarious memories of "electronerd
educations" gone awry David. Gawd we had fun . . !

For the first few weeks of my interest, my dad actively discouraged me
with talk of amateur radio being a passing fad for me.
He had visions
of mounds of equipment gathering dust in a closet.

He was right, I've seen it happen . . !

My mother encouraged
me and was able to convince my father that some of the meager family
income should be spent on a transmitter for me if I earned the money for
the receiver from my paper route.

You got lucky, I got NOTTING in the way of economic support for
diddling with radios despite the volume of coin my parents had. Their
policy was that if some pursuit or another was important enough to
their kids we could bloody well work out how to pay for it on our own
or drop it. With the notable exception of cheerfully paying the
expenses related to Boy Scouting. I *really* needed radio gear so I
had a couple paper routes, peddled magazine subsciptions, painted
house numbers on curbs in December, etc. Got the equipment and some
early lessons on how much work hot buttons can actually cost.

My dad had and has no technical abilities whatever. My mother was
deathly afraid of electricity and wouldn't even clean my ham shack. She
just knew that lightning was going to enter the house via my antennas.
Both parents saw value in amateur radio as a wholesome activity, one
which would nurture an interest in science and possibly lead to a career
in electronics.

Once more we all obviously came from very different directions to a
sort of convergence here. My Dad excused himself from an orphanage at
age 14 and became an apprentice tool and die maker. Eventually he
moved on into the U of P med school research labs as a creative guru
in the electrical instrumentation, glass-blowing and mechanical shops.
Mom became a secretary-turned-lab-assistant in the same research
facility where they met in 1933 or so and here I is. Mom had a much
older civil engineering student brother who "fiddled with radios all
night" and who might have been an early ham. He passed away before he
graduated so I'll never know if he was a ham or not. Bottom line here
being that when I got into ham radio and hung wires all over the yard
none of it particularly attracted much parental attention. At dinner
one night I puffily announced that I'd worked Africa for the first
time the night before, a ZS6 on 80 CW. "That's nice dear. Did you
clean your bedroom yet?" Career guidance via ham radio? Ha! As if.

Just after WW2 they put together the family tool and die works in
which all four of their offspring were raised. So of course we all
became gearheads, even the girl knows wrenches. Two mechanical
engineers, another tool and die maker (turned statistician and
programmer), the girl got into computer programming about the time the
first punch card decks showed up. What I have gotten out of ham radio
as it relates to my career is a *much* better grip on EE sorts of
things than the average ME has. Has proven to be a very big asset on
many occasions.

I raised my three daughters pretty much the way I was raised and none
of 'em are slouches in their various professional technical fields.


I know Janie. Her father was Jesse Bieberman W3KT who is still a
legend. Honer Roll top-ender for decades, phone and cw dx contester,
25wpm with a straight key for 48 straight. Vice Director of the
Atlantic Division for decades and one of the most powerful voices in
Newington in those days. Ran the W3 buro single-handed also for
decades.

...and ran the W3KT outgoing QSL forwarding service for a number of
years.

I forgot all about that, tnx.

Speaking of QSL card handling Joe Arcure W3HNK is in this
neighborhood, I gotta look him up.


Dave K8MN

Brian w3rv

Brian Kelly wrote:

Dave Heil wrote in message ...
Brian Kelly wrote:

(N2EY) wrote in message . com...

During the same year I built an AM BC rcvr which used five of the tiny
AG-1 flashbulb envelope subminiature tubes and stuffed the whole thing
into a small Band-Aid can which I carried in my shirt pocket. Walkman
Numero Uno. I went into biology class one day and strung the wire
antenna to an overhead lamp fixture, put on the earplug "speaker" and
started tuning around. The teacher, good 'ole Floyd Neff finally
noticed the antenna and stormed to the back of the room, "What are you
doing, what is that thing?" I cupped my ear, "Uh, it's my hearing aid,
could you speak up a bit please?" Tossed outta class again.

Young Don Newell was the crucifer one Sunday at St. Andrew's Episcopal
Church in Oak Hill. After the processional and after my father had
begun the service, Don fished a tiny crystal radio from his cassock,
stuffed the earphone into his ear and attached a wire with an alligator
clip to the cross. As the service ended, my dad whispered to him, "I'd
like a word after church".

You brought back a lot of hilarious memories of "electronerd
educations" gone awry David. Gawd we had fun . . !

The best I've ever heard was deliverd at the Dayton banquet one year by
Jean Shepherd.

For the first few weeks of my interest, my dad actively discouraged me
with talk of amateur radio being a passing fad for me.
He had visions
of mounds of equipment gathering dust in a closet.

He was right, I've seen it happen . . !

I can still get a laugh from him these days whenever I ask if he thinks
I'll tire of the stuff and let it sit in the closet.

My mother encouraged
me and was able to convince my father that some of the meager family
income should be spent on a transmitter for me if I earned the money for
the receiver from my paper route.

You got lucky, I got NOTTING in the way of economic support for
diddling with radios despite the volume of coin my parents had. Their
policy was that if some pursuit or another was important enough to
their kids we could bloody well work out how to pay for it on our own
or drop it. With the notable exception of cheerfully paying the
expenses related to Boy Scouting. I *really* needed radio gear so I
had a couple paper routes, peddled magazine subsciptions, painted
house numbers on curbs in December, etc. Got the equipment and some
early lessons on how much work hot buttons can actually cost.

Well, in my case it was a one-time Christmas deal--the one BIG present
and that was second-hand from Allied's big, used equipment list. The
receiver I saved for was also from the same list. More newspaper
deliveries, an after-school job at the local hobby shop several days
each week and the writing of a sports column for the local newspaper
provided coaxial cable and connectors, a key, antenna wire and the
like. Some of that money was also spent on a big U.S. call area map and
some (sorry, no choice of color) QSL cards from WRL.


I know Janie. Her father was Jesse Bieberman W3KT who is still a
legend. Honer Roll top-ender for decades, phone and cw dx contester,
25wpm with a straight key for 48 straight. Vice Director of the
Atlantic Division for decades and one of the most powerful voices in
Newington in those days. Ran the W3 buro single-handed also for
decades.

...and ran the W3KT outgoing QSL forwarding service for a number of
years.

I forgot all about that, tnx.

I used Jesse's outgoing card forwarding service in the days preceeding
the ARRL's outgoing bureau.

Speaking of QSL card handling Joe Arcure W3HNK is in this
neighborhood, I gotta look him up.

Joe used to be a regular at the DX hospitality suites at Dayton. I
haven't seen him in a number of years.

All of this nostalgia has me fired up to grab my collection of the West
Coast DX Bulletin to re-read some of Cass's gems.

Dave K8MN

In article ,
(Brian Kelly) writes:

(N2EY) wrote in message
.com...
ospam (Larry Roll K3LT) wrote in message
...

achievement only points accusingly to the fact that
present amateur radio licensing requirements are "dumbed-down" to
such an unreasonably low level that even a 7-year old can attain an
Amateur Extra-class license.

That's one way to look at it. The way I prefer to look at it is that a
bright and motivated young child set herself a goal and achieved it.

I don't see much of a connect between your particular preferences and
the highly-probable reality in these cases.

I just gave the opposite spin to Larry's.

Parents and other
relatives impose expectations on kids all the time.

That's part of the job.

I sure did. I
"motivated" mine any number of times into "achieving" and in some of
those cases they met my expectations just to get me off their backs.

That's a bit different from Larry's claim that the only reason was because the
mother pushed her.

And while the novelty of a 7-year old
Extra is certainly "news" in the Amateur Radio community, it does
not point to a secure future for our hobby/service.

Why not? I don't see anything wrong with young people, or females,
getting
licenses. In fact, I think that sort of thing is just what ham radio
needs *more* of!

That's not what Larry meant.

Sure sounded like it to me.

Over the 100 year history of ham radio
maybe we've had what, pick a number, twenty kids under ten licensed?

I dunno. Maybe a couple hundred.

Look up a book called "Radio Rescue" by Lynne Barasch. Ten year old ham in
1923. True story.

Versus around 1.5 million total U.S. hams?

Where'd you get a number that big? Prolly more like a million.

Those kids have all been
statistical anomalies pure and simple and have not had, nor will they
have any influence at all on the course of the service in the future.

Not my point at all.

Point is that two of things working against ham radio today are lack
of youngsters and the tendency of some people to avoid hobbies the whole
family can't enjoy. Family of hams beats both those trends.

Any of Mattie's young peers, without the support of a licensed parent,
and the material support of a functional station in their home, would
not likely achieve the same results.

Absolutely. How many of these kids *didn't* have a ham in the
immediate family?

Few if any. So what? The music teacher's kid is probably going to have more
access to instruments than the plumber's.

So what? Part of what healthy families *DO* is support each other's
needs
and interests. In that family, it's clear that ham radio is a family
thing,
not something one family member does in seclusion from the rest.
That's a
good thing. It brings families together, crosses generational
barriers, helps
build a level of education, maturity and understanding that are
greatly needed.

I think you're over-preaching to the choir again here James.

I don't.

And there is no better way to help a child learn than to get them
interested in the subject. Geography? Time zones? Math, science,
technology? An interest in ham radio helps with all of those.

Her folks shepherded her into ham radio beacause ham radio is a great
way for kids to learn geography??

Heck no - that's just a side benefit.

(About the best we can hope for
is that other ham parents will take similar steps to induce their
children to become licensed, but that's about as far as it can go
until they become adults, with their own financial resources and the
adult prerogatives that go with it.

I never got any help in the ham radio area from my folks. So I was
delayed a few years in getting started.

Nothing unusual about that.

'zactly. Which is why it took me a little longer. If I'd had real support, I'd
a been
really dangerous. bwaahaahaaa

A huge percentage of all of us kid hams
didn't have any particular "parental support" when we became hams. All
my folks cared about was that whatever it was that I was doing with a
soldering iron in the cellar didn't result in the Henny Carr the town
cop dragging me home by the scruff of my neck *again* for commiting
some bush-league juvenile atrocity or another. Worked for them and it
worked for me.

'zactly. One of the biggest parental jobs is to get 'em interested in
something - anything - that's relatively harmless compared to what's out
there. Which they may get involved in anyway, but it beats taking the
hands off approach.

With some kids, a lot of support is needed. With others, the best way to kill
the kid's interest is to get involved too much.

About the best face I can put on this is that young Mattie now has
the rest of her life to "grow" into the hobby. Hopefully, over the
years, she will acquire technical knowledge and operating skills which
will become equivalent to her Amateur Extra status.

She got 4 wrong on Element 4. How many did you get wrong on yours?

No-counter: We all know that there is *no* relationship between
passing the tests and the level of useful knowledge reqired to put
together an HF ham station.

Of course. Point is she didn't just pass. Then again, she got 4 more
wrong than our buddy in Allentown....

This NG has glaring examples of same.

Oh yes - including one or two who couldn't even get any ham license, despite
years-old predictions...

As of now,
however, she is more of a stunt than the real thing.

How do you know?

He doesn't and neither do you.

And that's the point. Larry made all kinds of statements about someone he
doesn't know at all.

Fact is that it's not hard to find
instances of their folks pressuring kids into outstanding
accomplishments in order to have bragging rights about the kid. Which
I suspect is where Larry is coming from. Whether it's true in Mattie's
case is 100% conjecture.

Bingo.

I have no
doubt that when asked to engage in even a fairly low-level discussion
of technical and operating subjects, she will not be able to give
any reasonable accounting of herself, beyond perhaps the simple
recitation of answers to the exam questions.

You might be surprised.

She's probably somewhere between the opposite poles you two guys live
in.

And that's the point.

Tell ya what, Larry, I'll fill a box with parts and you can come over
and build afunctioning ham rig out of them. No instructions, no
elmers, just parts and a book or two.
I did it when I was 13. I doubt
you could do it, Larry.

Virtually all yer kid ham predecessors could cobble rigs together
"Back in my day".

I could, too. Many of my counterparts could. A few couldn't.

It was almost the norm then. A lot higher
percentage of us designed and rolled our own than was the case "in
your day" a decade and a half later. By the time Larry got into ham
radio hombrewing no longer made any sense except in oddball cases so I
doubt he had any reason to even consider building his own rig.

Coax can be had with the connectors already on, too. And premade G5RVs
often make more sense than rolling one's own...

Entry
level rigs have been products of the era in which we came into the
service. YMMV and it obviously has.

The irony is that the box of parts I'd give Larry would include many parts
that were only recently given to me by an anonymous benefactor....

Again, none of Mattie's inadequacies are her fault, she is just
the product of her parent's dreams.

Nonsense, Larry. She's an individual. Kids are not robots.

C'mon, you know better than that.

Yes I do. Kids are harder to train than robots.

Seven year olds are about as
compliant as they come.

HAW!!

They're "individuals" only to the extent that
their parents and teachers allow them to act independently.

I know some you oughta meet...

There are folks who walk into a test session with no ham license and
walk out with an Extra. That was going on before the VE system, too.
The barely-10-year-old I mentioned above had to do 13 wpm sending and
receiving plus the old Class B/General written.

I know Janie. Her father was Jesse Bieberman W3KT who is still a
legend. Honer Roll top-ender for decades, phone and cw dx contester,
25wpm with a straight key for 48 straight. Vice Director of the
Atlantic Division for decades and one of the most powerful voices in
Newington in those days. Ran the W3 buro single-handed also for
decades. Was also a private-school high school math instructor.

I knew him too. See above about the music teacher's kid. Only in this case
it's more like Ormandy's kid.

You
think maybe Jane just got up one morning when she was ten and outta
nowhere declared that she was gonna pursue a ham ticket??

Naw, she was copying code when she was six. And still active with the same
call.

At least nobody has yet accused the VEs of "fraud" (with absolutely no
evidence)
as has happened here before.

73 de Jim, N2EY