(Len Over 21) wrote in message ...

Lennie the Loser is trying to argue a point Jim's making that
actually echoes some of HIS sentiments...

How perculiar.

Perambulate your personal perspective, but don't pester us
particularly with poorly percolated petty pesterings promoted as
a perspicatious presentation when it is really perseverance of
persiflage. Ptui.

"Perculiar" indeed.

My typo notwithstanding, the questions remain:

What "MAJOR" role do the "unlicensed" services play in "emergency comms?

Is being insulting, rude, obnoxious, and resorting to toilet humor
considerd "civil amateur behavior?" Certainly not, yet you seem
to do nothing else in here.

What "MAJOR" role do the "unlicensed" services play in "emergency comms"?

Continued delaying tactics and obfuscation are admissions of lying.

Steve, K4YZ

(Steve Robeson, K4CAP) wrote in message . com...
(Len Over 21) wrote in message ...
In article , "Jim Hampton"
writes:

Hello, Steve

I think I have figured out the real problem behind most of the flames both
in this group and rec.radio.cb. I might be wrong, but it appears everyone
is trying to defend that their particular turf is "important" and someone
else's is not.

...more likely just defending their own pesonna, but why spoil your
nice rant?

Now Lennie get's to tell us how Jim's comments, otehr

1

than not
being approved by him, are a "rant"...

Fast-forward to today. Cell phones are likely the primary means of
reporting those accidents. Who needs the hams? Some hams will say "who
needs cb?"

A lot of folks state that amateur radio isn't a service; it's just a hobby.

Amateurs are all there to SERVE as "emergency minutemen!"

Right.

Lennie the Loser is trying to argue a point Jim's making that
actually echoes some of HIS sentiments...

How perculiar.

2

Few take into account how fragile that infrastructure of cell phones,
telephones, and internet can be when a large area is affected.

Riiight...on 11 Sep 01 the entire borough of Manhattan went down
after the Attack on the WTC towers...?

Ham radio was Johnny-on-the-spot immediately notifying all?

Lennie...Jim said "the infrastructure is ftagile".

3

It's already been proven as just that.

Can YOU "prove" otherwise, other than making snide or insinuating
personal swipes at the folks commementing here...!??!

That nasty
ice storm in the North East (was it 1997?) affected areas for hundreds of
miles. There were no cell phones as the cell phone towers went silent after
power had been out for days. No electricty, no heat, no telephones for
hundreds of miles. A relative of mine in Gouverneur, NY, had no heat,
power, or telephone for two *weeks*!!!

Upstate New York is YOUR "turf," right?

Was anyone knocking the state of New York? (or New Yourk?)

I don't think so.

You have. You've "knocked" everything west of the Owens Valley.

One amateur repeater was pressed into service for the police. I do not know
if the repeater was reprogrammed or they simply moved the police repeater to
the amateur site. The amateur site withstood the ice and they had generator
backup with a *lot* of fuel available.

Did the nasty police engineer get fired because he didn't specify
emergency power for the "police repeater?"

Does it matter?

Does it change the fact that the incident happened and that it as
documented in the media, Lennie?

4

I don't think it is as important "how" something is done as opposed to the
fact that it gets done. If someone is assisting at a shelter cooking meals,
that individual is *doing* something. That, to me, is more important than
all of the useless crying that goes on around these parts from time to time

Right...I'm going to need a ham license in order to volunteer serving
at homeless shelters? They do serve ham. Quite good, tastes like
chicken...wonder who it was?

Where did Jim make such a statement, Lennie?

BTW, during that ice storm, the calls were going out for batteries,
flashlights, generators, blankets, food, coffee, and mobile amateur
operators with HF capabilities. If you have nothing working for well over
100 miles in the N.E. U.S. and Canada, you will likely not get it done on
VHF/UHF or cb.

Did New York state close down all its National Guard units? Air
Guard? Political disagreement between NY Governor and the
White House? Was FEMA on vacation? No aid available for NY
state? Terrible situation!

Well, next time that happens, send me an aid request via NTS.
I'll put together a CARE package for you with an extra can of
Sterno so you won't be too cold. Ought to arrive in two months;
takes 7 weeks to get the NTS message through...allow for
sufficient time.

Anything to help.

You wouldn't help your wife by passing in a roll of toilet paper,
Lennie.

Putz.

Steve, K4YZ

"Len Over 21" wrote in message
...

Well, next time that happens, send me an aid request via NTS.
I'll put together a CARE package for you with an extra can of
Sterno so you won't be too cold. Ought to arrive in two months;
takes 7 weeks to get the NTS message through...allow for
sufficient time.

Baaaaaaaaa Ha Ha Ha Ha!!!!

Even Glen "Bull****ter" Baxter's IARN is faster than NTS.

Send in those IARN jump teams boys! -and while your
at it, we have this new Membership premium for
just $49.95....and if you act now, we'll throw in a
bamboo steamer too as our free gift to U !

In article , "Jim Hampton"
writes:

If you go back into the 50s and 60s, amateur radio served quite well for
long-haul phone patches and in emergencies.

Service in emergencies goes back much farther, of course.

Very localized emergencies,
such as an auto accident would largely be reported by normal telephone.

Also by hams equipped with mobile rigs if telephone was not immediately
available.. This is documented all the way back to the beginning of mobile
operation by hams. Of course, the number of mobile-equipped hams limited the
chances that there would be a ham in the area when such a localized emergency
happened.

In
the 70s, the cb craze took hold and certainly I would expect that cb was
sometimes used to report the accidents. The small number of amateurs would
preclude them being involved very often in such a situation.

I disagree on that last point. That same time period was the boom time for
amateur repeaters and autopatching. At least in the areas I'm familiar with,
such service by hams was very common.

Voilla, cb is
more important than ham radio.

Certainly more numerous in those times. Questionable today, though.

Fast-forward to today. Cell phones are likely the primary means of
reporting those accidents. Who needs the hams? Some hams will say "who
needs cb?"

As long as the cell phones are avaialble, they are obviously the preferred
method because anyone so equipped can push 911 and report directly.

A lot of folks state that amateur radio isn't a service; it's just a hobby.

That's a roundabout way of saying that a bunch of things.

Few take into account how fragile that infrastructure of cell phones,
telephones, and internet can be when a large area is affected. That nasty
ice storm in the North East (was it 1997?)

Yes

affected areas for hundreds of
miles. There were no cell phones as the cell phone towers went silent after
power had been out for days. No electricty, no heat, no telephones for
hundreds of miles. A relative of mine in Gouverneur, NY, had no heat,
power, or telephone for two *weeks*!!!

That storm also involved damage that close roads and made simple things like
getting fuel for generators very difficult.

One amateur repeater was pressed into service for the police. I do not know
if the repeater was reprogrammed or they simply moved the police repeater to
the amateur site. The amateur site withstood the ice and they had generator
backup with a *lot* of fuel available.

If it happens, it must be possible.

I don't think it is as important "how" something is done as opposed to the
fact that it gets done. If someone is assisting at a shelter cooking meals,
that individual is *doing* something. That, to me, is more important than
all of the useless crying that goes on around these parts from time to time


I agree 100%!

But some folks deny *any* significant contribution by amateurs.

BTW, during that ice storm, the calls were going out for batteries,
flashlights, generators, blankets, food, coffee, and mobile amateur
operators with HF capabilities. If you have nothing working for well over
100 miles in the N.E. U.S. and Canada, you will likely not get it done on
VHF/UHF or cb.

And during that storm, significant traffic was passed by CW because it was the
*only available mode* that would get through.

Some more data points from this area (suburban Philadelphia):

- A heavy snowstorm dumped about a foot of snow on the area one day. The
weatherfolk simply messed up, and did not predict anything like what really
happened. While there were no major problems involving loss of life or
property, many vehicles and people were stuck or seriously delayed, including
school buses full of kids. One of the first "casualties" of the storm was cell
phones, which were simply overwhelmed by the enormous volume of calls.

- Hurricane Isabel pounded through here some months ago and left hundreds of
thousands without power, and in some cases telephone service. Some if us were
out for days. The interesting thing about Isabel was that the outages were very
local in nature - one side of the street had power, the other did not, etc.
Some folks lost power *after* the storm because repair crews had to turn off
the power to a larger area to fix downed poles and lines. Cell phone coverage
was better than during the snow storm but unreliable. Again, no major problems
involving loss of life or property, but the cell system capacity was
overwhelmed at times.

73 de Jim, N2EY

On 21 Mar 2004 20:58:48 GMT, N2EY wrote:

That storm also involved damage that close roads and made simple things like
getting fuel for generators very difficult.

Was the "Piped" natural gas delivery interrupted? I'm a huge fan of
"piped gas" fueled gensets rather than stored propane, CNG, or diesel.

--
73 de K2ASP - Phil Kane

From a Clearing in the Silicon Forest
Beaverton (Washington County) Oregon

In article , "Phil Kane"
writes:

On 21 Mar 2004 20:58:48 GMT, N2EY wrote:

That storm also involved damage that close roads and made simple things like
getting fuel for generators very difficult.

Was the "Piped" natural gas delivery interrupted? I'm a huge fan of
"piped gas" fueled gensets rather than stored propane, CNG, or diesel.

It's my understanding that the natural gas kept flowing. But that solution only
works if you are close enough to a gas main to make installation of a service
practical and affordable, and if the disasters encountered do not disrupt
service. In earthquake areas, for example, I doubt you'd ant to depend on
underground gas supply for emergencies. SNow and ice storms are a different
game.

73 de Jim, N2EY

N2EY wrote:

In article , "Phil Kane"
writes:

On 21 Mar 2004 20:58:48 GMT, N2EY wrote:

That storm also involved damage that close roads and made simple things like
getting fuel for generators very difficult.

Was the "Piped" natural gas delivery interrupted? I'm a huge fan of
"piped gas" fueled gensets rather than stored propane, CNG, or diesel.

It's my understanding that the natural gas kept flowing. But that solution only
works if you are close enough to a gas main to make installation of a service
practical and affordable, and if the disasters encountered do not disrupt
service. In earthquake areas, for example, I doubt you'd ant to depend on
underground gas supply for emergencies. SNow and ice storms are a different
game.

I don't live in an area which is prone to earthquakes. I weighed likely
scenarios and noted that in many emergencies, gasoline and diesel fuel
are the not always easily obtained. In some instances they are hoarded
and the prices can skyrocket. In a prolonged power outage, many station
have no power to pump the fuel.

My solution was to buy a 3.5 KW gasoline generator and to purchase a kit
to convert it to natural gas or propane operation. The generator is a
Craftsman with a Briggs and Stratton engine. The conversion kit was
only eighty dollars. It cost me another 30 dollars to purchase a high
pressure rubber hose with brass pipe fittings on each end to avoid
transmitting the vibration of the generator back to the house. This is
much cheaper than purchasing a generator specifically made for use with
natural gas.

A major factor in making my decision is that I pay nothing for natural
gas.

Dave K8MN

N2EY wrote:
In article , "Jim Hampton"
writes:


If you go back into the 50s and 60s, amateur radio served quite well for
long-haul phone patches and in emergencies.


Service in emergencies goes back much farther, of course.


Very localized emergencies,
such as an auto accident would largely be reported by normal telephone.


Also by hams equipped with mobile rigs if telephone was not immediately
available.. This is documented all the way back to the beginning of mobile
operation by hams. Of course, the number of mobile-equipped hams limited the
chances that there would be a ham in the area when such a localized emergency
happened.


In
the 70s, the cb craze took hold and certainly I would expect that cb was
sometimes used to report the accidents. The small number of amateurs would
preclude them being involved very often in such a situation.


I disagree on that last point. That same time period was the boom time for
amateur repeaters and autopatching. At least in the areas I'm familiar with,
such service by hams was very common.


Voilla, cb is
more important than ham radio.


Certainly more numerous in those times. Questionable today, though.


Fast-forward to today. Cell phones are likely the primary means of
reporting those accidents. Who needs the hams? Some hams will say "who
needs cb?"


As long as the cell phones are avaialble, they are obviously the preferred
method because anyone so equipped can push 911 and report directly.

I think this may be the confusion here also. A cell phone is great for
localized small-scale problems. If everyone has one, then of course they
will be great for calling 911. An accident happens and likely the next
person ther will have a cell phone. One of the best reasons for having
one of the otherwise evil little devices.

As the scale of problems gets bigger, then they become of less use,
their usefulness being inversely proportional to the scale of the problem.

Eventually, the cellular concept falls apart because of the massive
support structure needed for the instruments use, and that often the
same disasters that make emergency comms necessary take out that
infrastucture.

I recall the pictures from the wildfires in San Diego last year showing
people trying to use their cell phones without success. The look on many
faces was one of surprise that the things weren't working.

- Mike KB3EIA -

In article , Mike Coslo
writes:

As long as the cell phones are avaialble, they are obviously the preferred
method because anyone so equipped can push 911 and report directly.

I think this may be the confusion here also. A cell phone is great for
localized small-scale problems. If everyone has one, then of course they
will be great for calling 911. An accident happens and likely the next
person ther will have a cell phone. One of the best reasons for having
one of the otherwise evil little devices.

AH, Mike, I see where you're going with this. And I agree!

As the scale of problems gets bigger, then they become of less use,
their usefulness being inversely proportional to the scale of the problem.

Eventually, the cellular concept falls apart because of the massive
support structure needed for the instruments use, and that often the
same disasters that make emergency comms necessary take out that
infrastucture.

Even if the infrastructure is largely intact, it can be overwhelmed by the
unexpected demand.

I recall the pictures from the wildfires in San Diego last year showing

people trying to use their cell phones without success. The look on many
faces was one of surprise that the things weren't working.

Because they'd never encountered that behavior before.

73 de Jim, N2EY

N2EY wrote:
In article , Mike Coslo
writes:


As long as the cell phones are avaialble, they are obviously the preferred
method because anyone so equipped can push 911 and report directly.

I think this may be the confusion here also. A cell phone is great for
localized small-scale problems. If everyone has one, then of course they
will be great for calling 911. An accident happens and likely the next
person ther will have a cell phone. One of the best reasons for having
one of the otherwise evil little devices.


AH, Mike, I see where you're going with this. And I agree!

As the scale of problems gets bigger, then they become of less use,
their usefulness being inversely proportional to the scale of the problem.

Eventually, the cellular concept falls apart because of the massive
support structure needed for the instruments use, and that often the
same disasters that make emergency comms necessary take out that
infrastucture.


Even if the infrastructure is largely intact, it can be overwhelmed by the
unexpected demand.

Correct! Which makes it not a likely candidate for emergency services.
If it works to let people know you're still alive or need help or
whatever, of course you use it. But it is still very much a point to
point solution. Which is to say, not a solution for large scale disasters.




I recall the pictures from the wildfires in San Diego last year showing


people trying to use their cell phones without success. The look on many
faces was one of surprise that the things weren't working.


Because they'd never encountered that behavior before.

Indicative on not knowing how the little things work. No tower or
power, no cell.

- mike KB3EIA -