Subject: Cell phone woes
From: "Jim Hampton"
Date: 4/23/2004 6:30 PM Central Standard Time
Message-id:

Steve,

Hans was involved in emergencies. He can tell you the story about getting
comms back up to Guam from Saipan (did I get the right island that time,
Hans?

I know he was, Jim. It still doesn't negate the fact that there are
numerous MARS BST's (Base Support Teams) that are part-and-parcel of base
disaster relief programs. Hans would have us believe that this is not true at
ALL. He is in error.

What everyone seems to forget here is that a considerable amount of military
traffic just might be classified. Also, do you want anyone knowing what the
ratio of classified to unclassified traffic is? If only some traffic were
encrypted, if that ratio changed to much more encrypted, people might be
able to draw some guesses as to "something is either happening or about to
happen".

Of course. And base commanders know what's "classified" and what's not.
A MARS BST would nhever even hear about "classified" traffic being passed, let
alone be handed something to pass.

The military has their way of doing things, and, quite frankly, I think they
do it very well indeed. No slam on amateur radio, but this is a very
different situation. Even military radios have mil-spec components and can
operate in conditions that our radios could not stand up to. You might be
in the Middle East in a desert in summer with sandstorms or in Korea in the
wintertime. You might be in a jungle with extensive rain and 100% humidity.
You might be in mountains.

Absolutely. And no one here (except those who keep trying to justify
thier rants by insinuating it's an "only-Amateur" scenario) is suggesting that
such is the case.

This is a forum relative to Amateur Radio. Most of the participants are
in the contiguous 48 United States, and I am going to "assume" that we are
discussing disaster situations involving the civilian populous in general.

In these specific exchanges we have included MARS as a resource for
"disaster communications" at those DoD facilities that have opted to implement
those programs, and certainly thos are facilities located within the United
States' jurisdiction.

Not all (certainly a few rather than a lot) have done so.

I know it's really rhetorical to do so, but since Hans has made a point of
misrepresenting the nature and composition of the MARS programs, I have taken
the stance of disagreeing with him. A L L of the MARS programs are made of
of licensed Amateurs. No Amateur Radio operators, no MARS.

Why would they try to include an unsecure (as opposed to encrypted - which,
by our laws, cannot be encrypted) service with gear that may perform well -
so long as the temperature is between 40 and 90 degrees farenheit with a
relative humidity between 30 and 90 percent and at an altitude not to exceed
10,000 feet?

I don't think JJ was making ANY suggestion of MILOPS in enviromental
extremes, nor was he suggesting any interoperabilty where COMSEC was of
concern.

MARS IS used in many instances for "disaster communications".

MARS is populated by civilian Amateur Radio operators. No...MARS is not
"Amateur Radio", nor is Amateur Radio MARS...However, No Amateur Radio, No
MARS.

My point here has been that Hans is belching out "absolutes" that are
anything BUT absolute, and he has been, in some significant margin, in error in
his representations of the MARS programs as they pertain to "disaster
communications".

73

Steve, K4YZ

Subject: Cell phone woes
From: "KØHB"
Date: 4/23/2004 7:03 PM Central Standard Time
Message-id: . net


"Jim Hampton" wrote

| Hello, Hans
|
| Does "sparkplug", "sparkplug1", and "KG6AAY" ring a bell


Indeed it does, Jim. Still exchange holiday correstpondence with both
Norm Spidell and Tom Belvin.

Do they correstpondence back?

Steve, K4YZ

Subject: Cell phone woes
From: (William)
Date: 4/23/2004 4:58 PM Central Standard Time
Message-id:

(Steve Robeson K4CAP) wrote in message
...
Subject: Cell phone woes
From: "KØHB"
Date: 4/22/2004 11:04 PM Central Standard Time
Message-id: et


"JJ" wrote
|
| And that is why the military and other emergency officials do not
| include cell phones in their emergency planning , but they do include
| amateur radio.
|

I spent a whole career involved in military (Naval) communications
planning, from single units to entire fleets, and never once included
amateur radio as a component of that planning.

You never seerved at a Naval facility that didn't have a MARS station
or
used MARS for passing ANY kind of traffic, Hans...???

Steve, you're confusing MARS with Amateur Radio. They are not the
same thing.

No, I am not.

I know of four military facilities, one of them Naval, that
incorporate
MARS teams for emergency purposes,

That's like saying, "I know of military installations that are guarded
by military police,"

No, it's not.

MARS is military. Check out what the acronym means sometime.

I know it quite well.

Military AFFILIATE Radio System.

That means licensed AMATEURS "affiliated" with that particular
MARS/military program.

No Amateur Radio Operators = No MARS.

and two of them that utilize RACES teams for
civil coordination in appropriate scenarios.

"and two of them use contract security services."

Very true.

Civil Defense guys like FEMA in fact do count on amateur radio in
emergency situations.

"Civil Defense guys" include military planners.

Except when one is Master Chief Brakob or MSgt. Burke.

Unless you were assigned the responsibility of incorportating those assets
to your plan by higher headquarters, Brian. Are you stating for the record
that if you are tasked with such a requirement that you'd disobey lawful
orders?

I just finished
"Heartland Response 04" and I can tell you that there were at least two
uniformed representitives from Penatgon offices there.

OK.

Guess they forgot to consult you first, Hans.

Since you've concluded "Heartland Response 04," would you mind giving
us an after action report? Lessons learned?

No, I would not care to give you an "after action report", other than to
say I had a good time and a lot WAS learned/accomplished.

Go figure, eh...?!?!

So does MARS still = ARS?

Only as it pertains to providing the people and resources to HAVE a MARS
program, Brian.

No Amateur Radio Operators = No MARS program. Such is NOT true with
REACT, Civil Air Patrol, the Coast Guard Auxiliary, and other
programs/agencies, although they MAY have some Amateurs participating. An
Amateur ticket is NOT required for them.

Unless, of course, you know of some secret DoD document that would deploy
Active Duty service persons to flesh out the MARS ranks if they all decided to
quit...?!?!

73

Steve, K4YZ

"Jim Hampton" wrote in message
...

| Hans was involved in emergencies. He can tell you the story about
getting
| comms back up to Guam from Saipan (did I get the right island that
time,
| Hans?

Yup, that's the right island grin.

The Crockstar is trying to somehow make MARS into an amateur radio
program, and therefore make his case that military planners include
amateur radio in their plans.

Of course MARS isn't amateur radio, it is the Military Affiliate
Radio Service, which uses MARS frequencies, issues MARS licenses, and
trains it's operators in MARS procedures. The only resemblance it has
to amateur radio is the fact that most (not all) volunteers are
recruited from amateur ranks. Not all amateurs are eligible to be
licensed as MARS operators.

73, de Hans, K0HB

Subject: Cell phone woes
From: "KØHB"
Date: 4/23/2004 8:05 PM Central Standard Time
Message-id: . net


"Jim Hampton" wrote in message
...

| Hans was involved in emergencies. He can tell you the story about
getting
| comms back up to Guam from Saipan (did I get the right island that
time,
| Hans?

Yup, that's the right island grin.

The Crockstar is trying to somehow make MARS into an amateur radio
program, and therefore make his case that military planners include
amateur radio in their plans.

No one's "...trying to somehow make MARS into an amateur radio program".

I guess all that stuff in the various branches of MARS about disaster
planning was just to use up the surplus ink. And those BST's...?!?! Just
another opportunity to have lunch in the O-Club, Hans?

Of course MARS isn't amateur radio, it is the Military Affiliate
Radio Service, which uses MARS frequencies, issues MARS licenses, and
trains it's operators in MARS procedures.

Duhhhh....Ya think...?!?! I believe I said (in not so many words) the
very same thing.

The only resemblance it has
to amateur radio is the fact that most (not all) volunteers are
recruited from amateur ranks. Not all amateurs are eligible to be
licensed as MARS operators.

Just the majority of them.

No Amateur Radio = No MARS program.

It really is just that simple.

Steve, K4YZ

Jim Hampton wrote:


The military has their way of doing things, and, quite frankly, I think they
do it very well indeed. No slam on amateur radio, but this is a very
different situation. Even military radios have mil-spec components and can
operate in conditions that our radios could not stand up to. You might be
in the Middle East in a desert in summer with sandstorms or in Korea in the
wintertime. You might be in a jungle with extensive rain and 100% humidity.
You might be in mountains.

That's why Collins built the S-Line series of equipment, which was also
very widely used by amateurs. I still run an S-Line.

(Steve Robeson K4CAP) wrote in message ...
Subject: Cell phone woes
From: "KØHB"
Date: 4/23/2004 1:11 PM Central Standard Time
Message-id: . net


"JJ" wrote

| In the past I certainly ran lots of phone patches for U.S Naval
personel
| aboard U.S Naval ships to family here in the states. Still even have
the
| logs I kept of each patch.

Sorry JJ,

MARS is not amateur radio.

Even if it were, phone patches home to Mom are great morale boosters,
but they not "emergency planning".


Sorry Hans, MARS IS "Amateur Radio".

Sorry Steve, but MARS is NOT "Amateur Radio."

With the exception of a very few Active Duty personnel assigned to oversee
the program, every single person in all three branches of MARS are licensed
Amateur Radio Operators.

I don't believe that Ray Collins is an amateur.

Prerequisite #1 for ALL branches is licensure in the Amatuer Radio
Service.

There's never been an exception?

ex NNN0GCM (Area Coordinator, Navy/Marine Corps MARS, Guam/Mariana
Islands)

Congratulations. None of it changes the facts about MARS, however.

Correct. And you have your FACTS wrong.

MARS is NOT "Amateur Radio."

Formerly NNN0VVU (CHOP, NNN0MOC/MOF, Assistant Islandwide Coordinator for
Okinawa, 1981), AFA1OQ, AAT4SA.

So there....Nyah.....

Steve, K4YZ

Looks like the military wasted a lot of training on you if you cannot
get even the most basic FACT right.

Now just accept it so that Carl doesn't have to come on here spank you
again.

(Steve Robeson K4CAP) wrote in message ...

MARS is military. Check out what the acronym means sometime.

I know it quite well.

Military AFFILIATE Radio System.

That means licensed AMATEURS "affiliated" with that particular
MARS/military program.

I am a leader in the BSA.

When I am on my paying job, am I representing the BSA?

When a volunteer is signing AFA3xx, is he or she representing the BSA,
CSA, FFa or the PTA?

Nope. And neither are they representing the ARS or the ARRL.

No Amateur Radio Operators = No MARS.

Not true. Regulations change every day. The regulations will be
changed to suit new conditions.

MARS would have an easier training load by training people off the
street rather than having to retrain a bunch of amateurs.

Unless you were assigned the responsibility of incorportating those assets
to your plan by higher headquarters, Brian. Are you stating for the record
that if you are tasked with such a requirement that you'd disobey lawful
orders?

Comms was not my functional area, but weather comms were. But I will
state for the record that I'd write anything into the plan or opord
that hhq told me to - as long as it was a legal order.

No, I would not care to give you an "after action report", other than to
say I had a good time and a lot WAS learned/accomplished.

Great! You accomplished WAS. Glad you had fun.

Unless, of course, you know of some secret DoD document that would deploy
Active Duty service persons to flesh out the MARS ranks if they all decided to
quit...?!?!

I suspect that MARS, if need be, could find volunteers who didn't have
amateur licenses. Isn't that what CAP does? Doesn't CAP use radios
on military frequencies?

MARS is NOT "Amateur Radio."

Best of Luck, and last this subject.

JJ wrote in message ...
KØHB wrote:
"JJ" wrote

| NORAD, which is definitely military, does include ham radio in their
| plans,

bs

BS all you want, but just a few weeks ago I sat in a seminar with USN
Rear Admiral Daniel Stone, Director of Logistics and Engineering for
NORAD/USNORTHCOM and he says differently.

There you go again throwing around other peoples names and titles, but
you don't appear to have one.

No credibility whatsoever.

William wrote:

MARS is NOT "Amateur Radio."

http://www.asc.army.mil/mars/


Mars certainly consists of Radio amateurs, and according to

http://www.asc.army.mil/mars/join.htm

you need to be an amateur.

And since you can ba an amateur without being in MARS, yet cannot be in
MARS without being an Amateur..........

Her is something from from

http://www.ieway.com/~billw/wamars.htm

which seems to contradict that the MARS people aren't involved in
emergency work.

Quote start:


In times of emergencies, whether local, regional, or national, you will
find MARS radio operators handling logistics and emergency
communications. A part of our membership is equipped to "go portable"
with radio and computer equipment to help with health and welfare radio
traffic handling. During the recent flooding, members assisted local
authorities relaying messages from families to their relatives and
friends in regards to their situations. After the earthquakes in
California, members also handled messages from the earthquake victims to
others outside the area. All phone systems were disabled or overloaded
and the only efficient means of communication was by radio. Members of
the MARS program were there to lend a hand.

NNN0ZSJ / NNN0GCC Five

Quote end.


So what is it guys. Is this person "innacurate?


While MARS "isn't involved in emergency work", we might read

http://www.marsgateway.net/docs/AR25-6.pdf

and sneak a peek at Chapter 1 paragraph 6, sentence a.

Let me know what it says. ;^)

- Mike KB3EIA -