"KØHB" wrote in message ink.net...
"N2EY" wrote

Not necessarily a good comparison. Conditions during one weekend may
be better, for example.

While one mode or the other may have an advantage due to better
conditions (or whatever) in any single given year, the Nov SS contest
has been run with CW and Phone weekends 14 days apart for many decades
(1st and 3rd weekends of November respectively).

Yep.

Without a SINGLE
exception, the average scores on phone weekends are significantly higher
than on the CW weekends, no exceptions.

Did you mean winning scores, Hans? Or did you actually add up all the
scores submitted each year and work out the average? "Average scores"
can mean a lot of different things.

The reason is that the exchange
is faster on phone than on CW.

For a sizable percentage of the participants, that's certainly a
factor. And I'm sure most of them don't repeat back the entire SS
exchange - unlike what I hear so often on Field Day.

There is also the factor that there may be more participants during
the 'phone weekend. Also fewer QRP entries on phone?

A really fun contest regardless of mode. Someday I'll do a sweep...

73 de Jim, N2EY

"Alun" wrote in message
...
"Dan/W4NTI" w4nti@get rid of this mindspring.com wrote in
ink.net:



A good CW operator could out operate a phone operator with less
power, less equipment, and worse propagation.

Dan/W4NTI




A good operator (CW or any other kind) wouldn't say "(insert mode
here) operators are lids".

Again Alun you are not qualified to judge. Since you are only half a
ham. You have no experience to enable you able to judge anything about
CW. You need to just admit that before you have the whole USENET
laughing at your ignorance on the subject.

Dan/W4NTI




Dan, you are not only a lid, you lack even the rudiments of logical
reasoning. I was _not_ judging anything about CW. I don't even care to do
so. What I was saying, since you evidently fail to understand, is that
anyone who says that users of a particular mode are lids just because they
use or prefer that mode is not a considerate person, i.e. you aren't.


I never made the claim of being considerate. That is your choice of words.

There is a valid place for each mode that we use in the amateur service,
and if anyone wants to do all of their operating using one mode, whether
it
be CW, or slow-scan, or PSK, or SSB, they should be left in peace and not
maligned by the likes of you. IMO none of them should be labelled as 'half
a ham'. What should we count you as? One quarter of a ham? One eighth?

A real ham is the proper answer.

You know one that paid his dues, passed his tests in front of the FCC.
Demonstrated his abilty to not only receive....but to SEND CW in front of
the FCC examiners. And has 43 years of experience since then. You
know....a real ham.

Make of that what you must.

Dan/W4NTI

-----BEGIN PGP SIGNED MESSAGE-----
Hash: SHA1

"Dan" == w4nti Dan writes:

[...]

Dan A real ham is the proper answer.

Dan You know one that paid his dues, passed his tests in front of the
Dan FCC. Demonstrated his abilty to not only receive....but to SEND
Dan CW in front of the FCC examiners. And has 43 years of experience
Dan since then. You know....a real ham.

Dan Make of that what you must.

Huh. I'm so glad I'm not an old, bitter, frustrated person. I might
run the risk of being a real ham.

Dan Dan/W4NTI

Jack.
(I'm happier being me, thanks.)
- --
Jack Twilley
jmt at twilley dot org
http colon slash slash www dot twilley dot org slash tilde jmt slash
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"Dan/W4NTI" w4nti@get rid of this mindspring.com wrote in message nk.net...


A real ham is the proper answer.

You know one that paid his dues, passed his tests in front of the FCC.
Demonstrated his abilty to not only receive....but to SEND CW in front of
the FCC examiners. And has 43 years of experience since then. You
know....a real ham.

Make of that what you must.

Dan/W4NTI

That would be an anachronism. It can't be done for real anymore, but
you're welcome to petition the SCA to start a chapter where you can
play at it.

One day QST will run that article in their April issue.

-----BEGIN PGP SIGNED MESSAGE-----
Hash: SHA1

"Anon" == nobody starwars writes:

Jack Huh. I'm so glad I'm not an old, bitter, frustrated person. I
Jack might run the risk of being a real ham.

Anon Age has nothing to do with Dan's personality problems. I've
Anon been licensed for 50 years, took all my exams except for the
Anon first one (Novice) in front of FCC examiners, but I've moved on
Anon since then.

Age is not merely a chronological concept, this is so true.

Anon Some people sit back and try to live in the past (military days,
Anon ham radio license -- whatever) while others continue to
Anon anticipate the future. Dan's "real ham" mantra is a plea for
Anon respect which arises out of his own insecurity.

You're thinking harder about it than I did.

Anon I've been there, done that, got the ARRL 35 wpm certificate, and
Anon then proceeded to persue other things. It is my belief that ham
Anon radio has become quite "uncool" to newbies in these days of the
Anon internet, personal computers, Wi-Fi, and the rest of the
Anon technology that attracts today's bright kids. I put ham radio
Anon on the back burner way back in 1980 when my interests also
Anon turned to computers and the Arpanet. I've built my own
Anon machines, written operating systems for them, and developed
Anon software in persuit of my technical interests. I think that the
Anon "real hams" of the 80's did very similar things and enlarged
Anon their own worlds beyond the narrow view that the SPST switch
Anon throwers (CW dudes) seem to espouse as "real" ham radio.

Amateur radio is no longer the cutting edge. I am very happy about
that, because most of the time I don't have to worry about poseur
ham-wannabe people. The vast majority of the amateurs with whom I
interact are grownup, mature, and interested in playing with and
learning about radio and other related technologies. I am very happy
about that, too.

Anon As the other "real hams" left the Dan types behind, they became
Anon insecure and increasingly strident. Ignore them. They not only
Anon don't matter any more, they are not "real hams" themselves.
Anon They are now merely old timers who couldn't keep up.

It is a shame that the wealth of experience and knowledge bottled up
inside is going to waste. Ah well. Such is life.

Jack.
(time marches on.)
- --
Jack Twilley
jmt at twilley dot org
http colon slash slash www dot twilley dot org slash tilde jmt slash
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Subject: Morse and Contests
From: (William)
Date: 5/7/2004 5:57 AM Central Standard Time
Message-id:

(Steve Robeson K4CAP) wrote in message
...

Steve, its obvious that you're nuts and I'm not.

To WHO...?!?!

YOU...?!?!

A documented liar? A "man" who won't stand behind his own word?

Am I supposed to be impressed by this?

Sheeeeeeesh. You really ARE an idiot.

Steve, K4YZ

Poor demented Steve.

I told you that the zero in my callsign stood for the tenth district,
not the zeroeth district.

I understand that for Amateur Radio applications the ZERO in the callsign
is for the tenth call district. Unlike you, I can think in the abstract.

I also understand there is only one numeral in your callsign. It IS a
ZERO.

So are you.

It really is THAT simple.

And so you call me a liar and an idiot, and insinuate that I'm not a
man.

You are a liar. You've made assertions about things you've allegedly done
in Amateur Radio that you subsequently refuse to substantiate them with ANY
form of proof.

You're an idiot because you keep exposing yourself to such ridicule even
though you've been caught doing it over and over.

I doubt you're much of a man because of your foolish regard for your own
reputation and reckless behaviour in a public forum

Get help.

For what? Making a fool out of you? That's what I HAVE you for,
PuppetBoy! Now...Tell us all about your hero Lennie...How proud you are to be
associated with him...How you worked "portable" from Somalia without proper
authorization to do so. Then you can ALSO provide us with SOME sort of proof
to substantiate YOUR claim that "unlicensed radio services play a major role in
disaster communications....

We'll wait right here while you pony up an excuse for all of that....And
THEN tell us who's "nuts"...

Steve, K4YZ

From: Jack Twilley

I'm so glad I'm not an old, bitter, frustrated person. I might
run the risk of being a real ham.


There are young hams, and old hams (and all ages in between). Not all hams are
old. I don't know any hams that are bitter.I don't think hams are frustrated
either. (They seem to be comfortable with who they are).

I don't know any "real" hams that are old, bitter, or frustrated. Okay. I know
some that are old. But, your'e saying all real hams are old.

From: starwars

It is my belief that ham
radio has become quite "uncool" to newbies in these days of
the internet, personal computers, Wi-Fi, and the rest of the
technology that attracts today's bright kids.

I don't think its the new gadgets.People that like building things may be
interested in amateur radio. This will be true, despite the internet, personal
computers, etc.

Subject: Morse and Contests
From: (Lumushahs)
Date: 5/7/2004 10:45 PM Central Standard Time
Message-id:

There are young hams, and old hams (and all ages in between). Not all hams
are
old. I don't know any hams that are bitter.

I know a couple, unfortunately....KB1HMW and N0IMD come to mind right off
the bat...

I don't think hams are frustrated
either.

Haven't found any "preety fems" yet, Vippy?

(They seem to be comfortable with who they are).

We are.

You seem to have a problem, however. Most of your "posts" lament your
exposure to most of us at one level or another...

Steve, K4YZ

"Jack Twilley" wrote in message
...
-----BEGIN PGP SIGNED MESSAGE-----
Hash: SHA1

"Dan" == w4nti Dan writes:

[...]

Dan A real ham is the proper answer.

Dan You know one that paid his dues, passed his tests in front of the
Dan FCC. Demonstrated his abilty to not only receive....but to SEND
Dan CW in front of the FCC examiners. And has 43 years of experience
Dan since then. You know....a real ham.

Dan Make of that what you must.

Huh. I'm so glad I'm not an old, bitter, frustrated person. I might
run the risk of being a real ham.

Dan Dan/W4NTI

Jack.
(I'm happier being me, thanks.)
- --
Jack Twilley
jmt at twilley dot org

And I'm so happy that I'm not a know it all, but learned nothing newguy that
thinks he is the cats meow.

Dan/W4NTI

"starwars" wrote in message
elinux.net...
Jack Twilley wrote:

Huh. I'm so glad I'm not an old, bitter, frustrated person. I might
run the risk of being a real ham.

Age has nothing to do with Dan's personality problems. I've been
licensed for 50 years, took all my exams except for the first one
(Novice) in front of FCC examiners, but I've moved on since then.

Some people sit back and try to live in the past (military days,
ham radio license -- whatever) while others continue to anticipate
the future. Dan's "real ham" mantra is a plea for respect which
arises out of his own insecurity.

I've been there, done that, got the ARRL 35 wpm certificate, and
then proceeded to persue other things. It is my belief that ham
radio has become quite "uncool" to newbies in these days of
the internet, personal computers, Wi-Fi, and the rest of the
technology that attracts today's bright kids. I put ham radio on
the back burner way back in 1980 when my interests also turned to
computers and the Arpanet. I've built my own machines, written
operating systems for them, and developed software in persuit of
my technical interests. I think that the "real hams" of the 80's
did very similar things and enlarged their own worlds beyond the
narrow view that the SPST switch throwers (CW dudes) seem to espouse
as "real" ham radio.

As the other "real hams" left the Dan types behind, they became
insecure and increasingly strident. Ignore them. They not only
don't matter any more, they are not "real hams" themselves. They
are now merely old timers who couldn't keep up.



You make some valid points there. And I probably fit most to all of that.
Unfortunatly this has NOT happened to me since the 80s or before. It
happened as soon as I came up to these newsgroups. And when the CB type of
operations came to HF. And when CBers turned ham radio VHF/UHF into a pizza
ordering service.

Real Ham Radio is Morse Code, and decent Voice operations. All history.
And I hate that. Your right.

Dan/W4NTI

"Lumushahs" wrote in message
...
From: Jack Twilley

I'm so glad I'm not an old, bitter, frustrated person. I might
run the risk of being a real ham.


There are young hams, and old hams (and all ages in between). Not all hams
are
old. I don't know any hams that are bitter.I don't think hams are
frustrated
either. (They seem to be comfortable with who they are).

I don't know any "real" hams that are old, bitter, or frustrated. Okay. I
know
some that are old. But, your'e saying all real hams are old.


Nor do I thing my age of 57 is 'OLD'. I'm no spring chicken but I sure hear
a LOT of older folks on the air than I am.

Dan/W4NTI

"Dan/W4NTI" w4nti@get rid of this mindspring.com wrote in
ink.net:


"Jack Twilley" wrote in message
...
-----BEGIN PGP SIGNED MESSAGE-----
Hash: SHA1

"Dan" == w4nti Dan writes:

[...]

Dan A real ham is the proper answer.

Dan You know one that paid his dues, passed his tests in front of the
Dan FCC. Demonstrated his abilty to not only receive....but to SEND
Dan CW in front of the FCC examiners. And has 43 years of experience
Dan since then. You know....a real ham.

Dan Make of that what you must.

Huh. I'm so glad I'm not an old, bitter, frustrated person. I might
run the risk of being a real ham.

Dan Dan/W4NTI

Jack.
(I'm happier being me, thanks.)
- --
Jack Twilley
jmt at twilley dot org

And I'm so happy that I'm not a know it all, but learned nothing newguy
that thinks he is the cats meow.

Dan/W4NTI




Jack may be relatively new, but I've been a ham for 24 years, 'real' or
otherwise, and I'm also glad that I'm me and not you.

"Alun" wrote in message
...
"Dan/W4NTI" w4nti@get rid of this mindspring.com wrote in
ink.net:


"Jack Twilley" wrote in message
...
-----BEGIN PGP SIGNED MESSAGE-----
Hash: SHA1

"Dan" == w4nti Dan writes:

[...]

Dan A real ham is the proper answer.

Dan You know one that paid his dues, passed his tests in front of the
Dan FCC. Demonstrated his abilty to not only receive....but to SEND
Dan CW in front of the FCC examiners. And has 43 years of experience
Dan since then. You know....a real ham.

Dan Make of that what you must.

Huh. I'm so glad I'm not an old, bitter, frustrated person. I might
run the risk of being a real ham.

Dan Dan/W4NTI

Jack.
(I'm happier being me, thanks.)
- --
Jack Twilley
jmt at twilley dot org

And I'm so happy that I'm not a know it all, but learned nothing newguy
that thinks he is the cats meow.

Dan/W4NTI




Jack may be relatively new, but I've been a ham for 24 years, 'real' or
otherwise, and I'm also glad that I'm me and not you.

Dang Alun....one more thing we agree on.

Dan/W4NTI

Subject: Morse and Contests
From: (William)
Date: 5/11/2004 9:04 PM Central Standard Time
Message-id:

(Steve Robeson K4CAP) wrote in message
...

I told you that the zero in my callsign stood for the tenth district,
not the zeroeth district.

I understand that for Amateur Radio applications the ZERO in the
callsign
is for the tenth call district. Unlike you, I can think in the abstract.

Then why did it take me to point it out to you???

It didn't.

You still haven't got the message, I guess.

I also understand there is only one numeral in your callsign. It
IS ZERO.

Correct me if I'm wrong, but there's also only one numeral in your
callsign, and it stands for only one numeral in the FCC's callsign
districts.

Yes...and it's NOT a ZERO.

So are you.

Obviously I'm a 10.

Not when it comes to honesty you aren't.

It really is THAT simple.

Then why don't you get it???

I "get it" just fine, Brain.

You're the one with a comprehension disorder.

Sucks to be you.

And so you call me a liar and an idiot, and insinuate that I'm not a
man.

You are a liar.

No, I am telling the truth.

Uh huh.

You've made assertions about things you've allegedly done
in Amateur Radio that you subsequently refuse to substantiate them with ANY
form of proof.

I've done them, yet I owe you no proof.

You SAY you've done them.

I say I've operated from Okinawa Japan. I can provide copies of old logs,
and I bet if I wrote to 15th Air Force I could get a copy of my old
authorization. I can also pony up a couple folks who were there when I did it.

YOU say you operated from Somalia. You haven't supplied the callsign of
ONE contact you made...Haven't provided a copy of ANY authorization from that
operation, and can't even give us the name of your commander that allegedly
gave you the permission.

Heck...I'd be half tempted to give you the "benefit of the doubt" based ont
eh "I was following orders" ruse if you'd even provide THAT much information.

You haven't. SEVERAL folks have asked you to ante-up some facts.

No facts = Brain's a liar.

It really is THAT simple.

You're an idiot because you keep exposing yourself to such ridicule
even
though you've been caught doing it over and over.

There you go calling me names again.

It's not "calling names" if it's true, Brain.

I doubt you're much of a man because of your foolish regard for your
own
reputation and reckless behaviour in a public forum

Steve, you're broken. I can't help you - broken people aren't my area
of expertise. Go get fixed. Go get help.

You don't seem to have ANY "area of expertise", Brain...Certainly not in
Amatuer Radio.

Get help.

For what? Making a fool out of you? That's what I HAVE you for,
PuppetBoy! Now...Tell us all about your hero Lennie...How proud you are to
be
associated with him...How you worked "portable" from Somalia without proper
authorization to do so. Then you can ALSO provide us with SOME sort of
proof
to substantiate YOUR claim that "unlicensed radio services play a major
role in
disaster communications....

Welp, Steve, I had proper authorization to operate amateur radio in
Somalia.

Not from what you've posted here.

Len is my hero because he doesn't back down from rabid dogs like you.

Lennie is a documented pathological liar. And just like a broken watch,
he get's one right once in a while. That still doen't make him any less of a
liar and antagonist.

If that's what you idolize, then just grit your teeth and take the flak
coming your way, PuppetBoy.

Cellular phones help people in emergencies every day, probably much
more often than amateur radio and certainly more often than CW in any
service.

Too bad.

No one sid it didn't.

YOU said "Unlicensed services play a MAJOR role in disaster
communications."

I've asked you to provide me ONE instance where "unlicensed (Part 95 other
than GMRS and Part 15) devices play a MAJOR role.

Again...ANOTHER assertion you've made unsubstantiated by facts.

We'll wait right here while you pony up an excuse for all of
that....And
THEN tell us who's "nuts"...

No excuse offered. I'm good with where I'm at. But you're broken.
Go get fixed.

If you are "good with where (you're) at", then dysfunctional and mediocre
are your milestones.

Nice job.

All you're good for are personal attacks. You have no honor.

A declaration about honor from a person who subsidises lying and
deception.

That's cute.

That's Brian Burke. Why am I not surprised...?!?!

Putz.

Steve, K4YZ

"KØHB" wrote in message link.net...
"Jack Twilley" wrote

If you were the average ham, Hans......

"Average" and "contesting" are incompatible concepts.

Agreed!

"Nothing average ever stood as a monument to progress.

Not entirely true.

Look at the "average" ham HF transceiver of, say, 40 years ago. Now
look at the "average" ham HF transceiver today. Not the
top-of-the-line, but rather what the middle of the pack can afford.
I'd say there's been some progress, particularly in what such sets
cost to buy new in terms of how many hours you have to work to buy
one.

Of course one of the big reasons the *average* rig is better is a
trickle-down effect of techniques used on the top-of-the-line stuff.
Which stuff exists in large part because of the market created by
contesters and DXers.

Or look at the features, capabilities and cost of the average PC
compared to 5 or 10 years ago. Heck, the average new PC today is more
powerful (by a whole bunch of measures) than the top-of-the-line
machine of a few years ago - and it costs far less.

So I'd say that the *average* can actually be a monument to progress.

When
progress is looking for a partner it doesn't turn to those who
believe that they are only average. It turns instead to those who
are forever searching and striving to become the best they
possibly can. If we seek the average level, we cannot hope to
achieve a higher level of success. Our only hope is to avoid
being a failure."

I agree 100% with that part.

73 de Jim, N2EY

"N2EY" wrote


So I'd say that the *average* can actually be a monument to progress.


Please never bother to apply for a position in my product development
group.

73, de Hans, K0HB

N2EY wrote:
"KØHB" wrote in message link.net...

"Jack Twilley" wrote


If you were the average ham, Hans......

"Average" and "contesting" are incompatible concepts.


Agreed!

"Nothing average ever stood as a monument to progress.


Not entirely true.

Look at the "average" ham HF transceiver of, say, 40 years ago. Now
look at the "average" ham HF transceiver today. Not the
top-of-the-line, but rather what the middle of the pack can afford.
I'd say there's been some progress, particularly in what such sets
cost to buy new in terms of how many hours you have to work to buy
one.

And if Hams simply bought the "average" rigs of yesteryear in
preference to the improved ones, we'd still be getting those same
average rigs.

Of course one of the big reasons the *average* rig is better is a
trickle-down effect of techniques used on the top-of-the-line stuff.
Which stuff exists in large part because of the market created by
contesters and DXers.

Or look at the features, capabilities and cost of the average PC
compared to 5 or 10 years ago. Heck, the average new PC today is more
powerful (by a whole bunch of measures) than the top-of-the-line
machine of a few years ago - and it costs far less.

So I'd say that the *average* can actually be a monument to progress.


Gee Jim! average means just that. The newer better faster average rigs
and computers are getting their increased power or functionality FROM
the better than average machinery. No better than average machinery, no
increased capabilitied to eventually go into the average stuff.


- Mike KB3EIA -

Mike Coslo wrote in message ...

Gee Jim! average means just that. The newer better faster average rigs
and computers are getting their increased power or functionality FROM
the better than average machinery. No better than average machinery, no
increased capabilitied to eventually go into the average stuff.


- Mike KB3EIA -

Jim, even though he says he designs rigs and builds radios from
scratch, had to buy a kit to get a better than average CW rig.

Subject: Morse and Contests
From: (William)
Date: 5/13/2004 6:15 AM Central Standard Time
Message-id:

(Steve Robeson K4CAP) wrote in message
...
Subject: Morse and Contests
From: (William)
Date: 5/11/2004 9:04 PM Central Standard Time
Message-id:

(Steve Robeson K4CAP) wrote in message
...

personal assault snipped

You've made assertions about things you've allegedly done
in Amateur Radio that you subsequently refuse to substantiate them with
ANY
form of proof.

I've done them, yet I owe you no proof.

You SAY you've done them.

OK. Both.

I did them, and I say I did them.

But you never proved it.

It's never been documented.

You can't provide ONE iota of proof in an avocation where documentation is
important and ritual in such matters. Most people are intesely proud of having
done what you claim and at LEAST have pictures of their "events".

So far you've not provided ANYthing. Ergo, until said proof is manifest,
as far as I am concerned, you're lying. You've had more than ample opportunity
to ante up, but all you do is make silly sandlot excuses.

You're a coward.

I say I've operated from Okinawa Japan. I can provide copies of old
logs,
and I bet if I wrote to 15th Air Force I could get a copy of my old
authorization. I can also pony up a couple folks who were there when I did
it.

I'm not even interested.

Of course you're not. You don't like it when someone can PROVE they did
what YOU only claim.

YOU say you operated from Somalia. You haven't supplied the callsign
of
ONE contact you made...Haven't provided a copy of ANY authorization from
that
operation, and can't even give us the name of your commander that allegedly
gave you the permission.

I don't need to. I owe you no proof.

I never said you "owe" me anything.

But you "owe" it to yourself to prove the assertions YOU made. I say
you've had more than ample opportunity to prove what you've said. You haven't.
All you've doen is dodge it. That makes me believe you are a liar.

That's just the way it is.

Yep. That IS just the way it is. Brian Burke is a liar.

Get over it.

Ain't me that's lying. Nothing to "get over".

Lots more personal attacks deleted.

They aren't "personal attacks" if they're true. So far you've not done or
said anything to prove otherwise.

Steve, K4YZ

Subject: Morse and Contests
From: (William)
Date: 5/14/2004 7:32 AM Central Standard Time
Message-id:

(Steve Robeson K4CAP) wrote in message
...

They aren't "personal attacks" if they're true. So far you've not
done or
said anything to prove otherwise.

Steve, K4YZ

Now you've called me a coward and a liar. They are personal attacks
regardless of whether they're true or not, and they're not true.

Until proven otherwise, they are.

SO far you are both.

You're just not a nice person.

I guess you consider me "not a nice person" because I don't tolerate your
mistruths and flights of fantasy.

Oh well. You'll excuse me if I don't lose any sleep over what a liar and a
coward thinks of me.

Anyway, I know what I've done and that's enough for me.

I think you REALLy meant that what you THINK you've done is enough for
you.

I don't need
a certificate on the wall to document my operations in foreign lands,
and as far as documention goes, even the FCC no longer requires us to
keep a log book. So much for you wanting me to do this just for me.
Get real, its for you.

IF you operated from Somalia, you didn't do it legally.

IF you operted from Somalia, you still ahve yet to prove it.

IF you were telling the truth about it you could have at least provided
the callsigns of a few folks you chatted with. I remember the calls of some
folks I "worked" from 1981 from Okinawa. What's YOUR problem?

Your continued insistance that I provide documention to you just isn't
going to happen. You can get over it by getting over it.

It's no skin off my nose, Brain...I am not the one who made far-out claims
that even a (pardon the pun) rank amateur in DXing could have avoided.

No Proof = Didn't happen.

So how 'bout them MARS regulations? Can you back up your statement,

" Sorry Hans, MARS IS "Amateur Radio". "

As long as the two are inter-dependent on each other, Brain, it's true.

As of today. it's true. No Amateur Radio = No MARS.

Amateur Radio-like conversations conducted by licensed Amateurs who happen
to be MARS members still, as I type this, occur on MARS allocations.

Best of Luck.

For what?

Steve, K4YZ

Mike Coslo wrote in message ...
N2EY wrote:
"KØHB" wrote in message link.net...

"Jack Twilley" wrote


If you were the average ham, Hans......

"Average" and "contesting" are incompatible concepts.


Agreed!

"Nothing average ever stood as a monument to progress.


Not entirely true.

Look at the "average" ham HF transceiver of, say, 40 years ago. Now
look at the "average" ham HF transceiver today. Not the
top-of-the-line, but rather what the middle of the pack can afford.
I'd say there's been some progress, particularly in what such sets
cost to buy new in terms of how many hours you have to work to buy
one.

And if Hams simply bought the "average" rigs of yesteryear in
preference to the improved ones, we'd still be getting those same
average rigs.

Exactly my point. Those who wanted something above average (like the
contesters and DXers) drove the market.

And as a result the *average* moved up over time.

Of course one of the big reasons the *average* rig is better is a
trickle-down effect of techniques used on the top-of-the-line stuff.
Which stuff exists in large part because of the market created by
contesters and DXers.

Or look at the features, capabilities and cost of the average PC
compared to 5 or 10 years ago. Heck, the average new PC today is more
powerful (by a whole bunch of measures) than the top-of-the-line
machine of a few years ago - and it costs far less.

So I'd say that the *average* can actually be a monument to progress.

Gee Jim! average means just that. The newer better faster average rigs
and computers are getting their increased power or functionality FROM
the better than average machinery. No better than average machinery, no
increased capabilitied to eventually go into the average stuff.

Exactly! But it is the *improvement in the average* that can stand as
a monument to true progress.

IOW, if some tiny percentage of top-end rigs have a new technology,
that's 'progress' for the few who can afford it. But when that new
technology becomes affordable and generally used so that the *average*
rig has it, that's 'progress' for most of us.

73 de Jim, N2EY

Which is more indicative of progress:

- Somebody custom-builds a few very expensive cars with new technology
that get 100 MPG

or

- Somebody mass-produces millions of affordable cars with new
technology that raise the fleet average to 40 MPG

?

Of course the first option will probably precede the second.

73 de Jim, N2EY

"KØHB" wrote in message thlink.net...
"N2EY" wrote


So I'd say that the *average* can actually be a monument to progress.


Please never bother to apply for a position in my product development
group.

No bother at all, Hans. It says a lot that my little discourse
disproving one of your pet quotes would instantly disqualify me from
your group.

Funny how some folks say they value independent reasoning, new ideas,
different opinions, creativity and careful analysis - but when
actually confronted by those things, they tell the messenger he's not
wanted.

73 de Jim, N2EY

"N2EY" wrote in message
om...
"KØHB" wrote in message
thlink.net...
"N2EY" wrote


So I'd say that the *average* can actually be a monument to
progress.


Please never bother to apply for a position in my product
development
group.

No bother at all, Hans. It says a lot that my little discourse
disproving one of your pet quotes would instantly disqualify me from
your group.

You didn't disprove the quote, Jim.

You disqualified yourself by accepting mediocrity, "good enough", and
"average". My industry is too competitive to abide "average", and those
who propose that "*average* can actually be a monument to progress"
clearly have the wrong mindset to contribute to our success.

73, de Hans, K0HB

"KØHB" wrote in message nk.net...
"N2EY" wrote in message
om...
"KØHB" wrote in message
thlink.net...
"N2EY" wrote


So I'd say that the *average* can actually be a monument to
progress.


Please never bother to apply for a position in my product
development
group.

No bother at all, Hans. It says a lot that my little discourse
disproving one of your pet quotes would instantly disqualify me from
your group.

You didn't disprove the quote, Jim.

I disproved the first sentence of it, Hans. The part about "Nothing
average ever stood as a monument to progress".

You disqualified yourself by accepting mediocrity, "good enough", and
"average".

Those three terms mean very different things. My disproof stands. You
just don't like that fact.

My industry is too competitive to abide "average",

Your industry "abides" it all the time. Otherwise you'd never get any
products out the door.

and those
who propose that "*average* can actually be a monument to progress"
clearly have the wrong mindset to contribute to our success.

That's bad logic on your part, Hans. The proof is right in front of
you, in the PC you're using. But you refuse to see it.


73 de Jim, N2EY

"Monument to Mediocrity" wrote

Your industry "abides" it all the time. Otherwise you'd never get any
products out the door.

We get a LOT of product out the door. Our engineering groups software
defined radio and hybrid fiber-radio (do a web search on Digivance)
products are the industry leaders precisely because they are not
"average". If we designed "average" stuff, we'd be closing the doors,
not shipping product out them.

73, de Hans, K0HB

Subject: Morse and Contests
From: "KØHB"
Date: 5/15/2004 10:41 AM Central Standard Time
Message-id: et


"Monument to Mediocrity" wrote

I am always amazed at how you manage to express such outrage or disdain
for others who take such swipes at each other, but somehow seem to think such
swipes are OK for YOU to take, Hans.

What's up with that...?!?! I didn't see Jim take any such swipe at you.


Steve, K4YZ

N2EY wrote:

Mike Coslo wrote in message ...

N2EY wrote:

"KØHB" wrote in message link.net...


"Jack Twilley" wrote



If you were the average ham, Hans......

"Average" and "contesting" are incompatible concepts.


Agreed!


"Nothing average ever stood as a monument to progress.


Not entirely true.

Look at the "average" ham HF transceiver of, say, 40 years ago. Now
look at the "average" ham HF transceiver today. Not the
top-of-the-line, but rather what the middle of the pack can afford.
I'd say there's been some progress, particularly in what such sets
cost to buy new in terms of how many hours you have to work to buy
one.

And if Hams simply bought the "average" rigs of yesteryear in
preference to the improved ones, we'd still be getting those same
average rigs.


Exactly my point. Those who wanted something above average (like the
contesters and DXers) drove the market.

And as a result the *average* moved up over time.

Of course one of the big reasons the *average* rig is better is a
trickle-down effect of techniques used on the top-of-the-line stuff.
Which stuff exists in large part because of the market created by
contesters and DXers.

Or look at the features, capabilities and cost of the average PC
compared to 5 or 10 years ago. Heck, the average new PC today is more
powerful (by a whole bunch of measures) than the top-of-the-line
machine of a few years ago - and it costs far less.

So I'd say that the *average* can actually be a monument to progress.

Gee Jim! average means just that. The newer better faster average rigs
and computers are getting their increased power or functionality FROM
the better than average machinery. No better than average machinery, no
increased capabilitied to eventually go into the average stuff.


Exactly! But it is the *improvement in the average* that can stand as
a monument to true progress.

IOW, if some tiny percentage of top-end rigs have a new technology,
that's 'progress' for the few who can afford it. But when that new
technology becomes affordable and generally used so that the *average*
rig has it, that's 'progress' for most of us.

But without the extraordinary, that progress is not made.

I understand your argument, but to me it is backwards.



- Mike KB3EIA -

Subject: Morse and Contests
From: (William)
Date: 5/16/2004 8:15 PM Central Standard Time
Message-id:

(Steve Robeson, K4CAP) wrote in message
.com...

Wouldn't know...Today (May 16th) was the fifth anniversary of my
daughter's passing, and my wife insisted I stay close to home. But no
matter where I go, there she is...She may ahve left my arms, but
she'll never leave my heart.

Steve, K4YZ

Steve, I am sorry. Maybe one day they'll move the dates of the Hamvention
again.

Thanks, Brian.

For me, anyway, it really would have been better to go. I needed to be
away for a bit, but hey...can't always have everything the way we want it,
eh...???

At least I can look forward to Huntsville...If anyone is within a
"relatively" reasonable drive time of Huntsville, AL, and has never been to
this one, they should try to. It's the second or third weekend of August, and
is always a lot of fun.

The "flea market" is indoors, but there's lots-and-lots of it. All the
usual forums and a very reasonable showing of vendors and organizations.
All-in-all it's a very well conducted regional hamfest. (Computers are there,
but in an ancilliary role!)

73 & thanks again...

Steve, K4YZ