In article ,
(William) writes:

(Avery Fineman) wrote in message
...
In article ,

(Brian Kelly) writes:

(N2EY) wrote in message
...

and I mention that
the U.S. military quit using manual telegraphy for fixed-point
communications in 1948.

They did? Everywhere?

Or did they simply start phasing it out in 1948?

And what about non-fixed-point communications, such as between ships?

And what about the CW courses still being taught at Fort
Huncha-something somewhere in the southwest? Ohyez, the feds still
have an abiding and ongoing interest in the use of CW.

"Abiding?!?" Crock.

Fort Huachuca is the Military Intelligence center for the U.S. Army.

One duty of M.I. is to run intercepts on foreign communications.

Some foeign countries still think that manual telegraphy is
"effective" so the M.I. teach morse code to intercept
analysts. For LISTENING.

The only "use" for morse code is in LISTENING, of intercepts,
ELINT.

The U.S. military does NOT use manual telegraphy for
radio communications. [USN blinker lights are not radio]

The Signal Corps is the communications branch of the Army.
The Signal Center is at Fort Gordon, GA. The Signal Center
doesn't teach any morse code receiving or sending.

Katapult Kellie should valve off all that steam and join the
rest of the world in this new millennium.

Good luck on that one, now...

LHA / WMD

Even the FCC and VEC's quit administering a Morse sending test. They
only administered a receiving test.

Hmmmmm?

Maybe the sending test would have been a disincentive to CW use on HF.

There must be some mental block induced by too much
morsemanship. The morsemen can't understand reality.

Or, they are so immersed in their only radio service active
in morsemenship that they are totally blind to all other radio
services. Might be a good project for some PhD candidate in
psychology as a Dissertation.

Time has stopped for the morsemen. They continue to live in
the past, imagining glories lives of navel high society, "hostile
actions," mighty titles of importance, all from morsemanship
credentialism.

Back some 49 years ago, NATO released their phonetic
alphabet. Phonetic alphabets are of no use for manual
telegraphy...apply only to voice communications. Just the
same, the morsemen keep insisting everyone still uses "CW"
(manual on-off carrier keying telegraphy) for military
communications.

Their minds are warped, living in fantasies of their own beeping.

LHA / WMD

In article , (Steve
Robeson K4CAP) writes:

Subject: Able Baker Charlie
From: (Avery Fineman)
Date: 6/20/2004 11:19 PM Central Standard Time
Message-id:

The U.S. military does NOT use manual telegraphy for
radio communications.

Yes, they do.

NO. They once did. No more.

Establish your PROOF before you blither out nonsense like that.

Tsk, tsk, tsk. Temper fry.

LHA / WMD

In article ,
(Brian Kelly) writes:

(N2EY) wrote in message
...
In article ,

(Brian Kelly) writes:

(N2EY) wrote in message
...

and I mention that
the U.S. military quit using manual telegraphy for fixed-point
communications in 1948.

They did? Everywhere?

Or did they simply start phasing it out in 1948?

And what about non-fixed-point communications, such as between ships?

And what about the CW courses still being taught at Fort
Huncha-something somewhere in the southwest? Ohyez, the feds still
have an abiding and ongoing interest in the use of CW.

That's for intel intercept. Listening to others use it, and maybe some
spoofing
and such.

Sure, they'd be grossly negligent if they didn't. I'll just bet that
Osama Baby has at least looked at CW for his purposes and that since
9/11 our guys have ramped up their volume of poking around for it. So
yes, the feds certainly do have an ongoing and abiding interest in the
use of CW, one-way for their purposes and/or otherwise.

Kelly, unable to admit what is happening since his bear-shooting
days as King of the Katapults, manufactures "knowing analyses"
of terrorists.

Kelly the putz-caller seems to forget a well-publicized video bite
of Osama bin Laden rather obviously using a hand-held transceiver
in earlier days. No code key was evident in that video bite seen
on major networks.

Kelly has NO information on "ramping up" on-off keying codes by
the U.S. government or anyone else. The Military Intelligence
School at Fort Huachuca has been active for years. All U.S.
government agencies involved in any way use that M.I. Center,
including those few needing any sort of skills with on-off codings
such as morse. That as an economic consideration, not any sort
of technical reason or alleged "importance of morse."

Reference: Fort Huachuca public affairs office.

However, amateur radio isn't the military. We don't have the same mission -
or
the same resources.

Even if we did I wouldn't go anywhere near it.

Why not?

"Sorry Hans, MARS IS amateur radio!" True or not true?

From someone "shooting bears for naval intelligence" and bragging
about "dining with the [aircraft carrier] captain," that sounds hollow.

So, some olde-tyme hamme can say he "shot bears for navel
intelligence" and that be okay. Navel intel is fine as long as
person is for morse code.

Do you mean the pictures taken by W3RV? Guess what - they're real. Like
it
or
not, civilian contractors do go out on US Navy ships. And they do see -
and
photograph - some pretty unusual stuff.

Har, I forgot about that, you did see some of those shots I took
didn't ya?

Yep. Some of them. Quite impressive, actually, both the photography and the
subject.

Geez that pile of old photos was a real trip back huh?

Oyez.

Gotta love the way the Putz has twisted 'em into "Naval intel" BS.

Bad pun of "navel" noted.

Another example of the Putz in his seven-yer-old mode. Which he
consistently drops into when he can't find an adult comment to post.

I have no problem being "adult" - even around children and the
immature. :-)

When I find some PCTA who are not children in here, I might alter
posting style.

No
such thing, they were typical on-the-road personal unclassified
snapshots and I never claimed otherwise.

That's true!

Every time the Soviets buzzed a carrier it became a tourist event,
bloomin' hoot. Kodak could have made money with a flight deck photo
processing kiosk after those flybys.

More "tales of the South Pacific?" :-)

I wasn't a contractor, I was a direct employee of the U.S. Department
of Defense and an offical civilian guest of the skipper while I was
aboard.

Always nice to be friends with the guy in charge.

Nah, it was just another bit of Naval tradition, DoD civilian
professionals were treated as officers and were expected to
reciprocate the courtesies received. I had to introduce myself to both
the skipper and the air boss and join them for dinner in officer's
mess on Friday evenings, etc. I knew nothing about any of it when I
logged aboard the first time. A crusty Chief Yeoman sat me down in his
office and went thru the list of what I had to do and not do.

Good ol' crusty chiefs. :-)

So, the dinner table talk was all about ham radio, morse, and
establishing valid QSLs for DXCC? :-)

Or did the talk involve ANY radio communications?

The Putz never managed to be either, his types did my drudge
work for me for cheap. Steerage dwellers.

Of course such activities are also irrelevant to amateur radio policy.

End of.

roger that!

73 de Jim, N2EY

Another installment of "Tales of The South Pacific" by the ancient
mariner-guest king of the katapults schmoosing with captains of
aircraft carriers. Real involvement with amateur radio! Not...

LHA / WMD

In article ,
(William) writes:

(Len Over 21) wrote in message
...
In article ,
(Steve
Robeson K4CAP) writes:

Subject: Able Baker Charlie
From: (William)
Date: 6/19/2004 10:17 PM Central Standard Time
Message-id:

Ditto the number of active hams hamming it up for WWII [exactly zero
(0)]. But that does not stop some from revering the contributions
that hams hamming it up made in WWII [exactly zero (0)].

You made this up, right?

No, nursie, Brian is correct.

The U.S. government stopped amateur radio transmissions
during WW2. Really. It was in all the ham magazines and
everything. Didn't you see it?

Saw it in a magazine. It could have even been a defunct magazine.

Nursie apparently didn't see it. No one sent him documented
proof, notarized. Everyone is LYING to nursie! Conspiracy!

More over, do you BELIEVE what you wrote? I ask because there is more
than a small amount of evidence to the contrary.

I don't think Brian is old enough to be alive during WW2, but
I was and I believe the U.S. government shut down amateur
radio transmitting during WW2.

Even the ARRL acknowledges that. Really!

Just like R.R.A.P. isn't Ham Radio, whatever those guys were doing
during WWII wasn't Ham Radio.

Their "spirits" were fully into it, busy beating the Huns and Japs
through mighty blows of their hand keys, air-dropping QSLs on
their homelands, fighting for truth, justice, mom's apple pie and
the glory of the League.

But there are some very confused folks here who think that "MARS
IS Amateur Radio," so I guess they might also think that
"Military Radio IS Amateur Radio."

Who really knows what they think. It's mostly incoherent, irrational
yelling.

They are Extras, hear them Roar! :-)

BTW, did you know that a Morse Exam acts as a disincentive to CW use
on HF?

And that MARS IS Amateur Radio?

Hi, hi.

These guys keep getting sillier and sillier.

Kinda like "Unlicensed devices play a major role in "emergency
comms"...?!?!

No, more like "CW gets through when nothing else will..."

Actually, CW gets through when everything else will.

True enough, but the codeaholic says otherwise, that morse beats
all other modes, past or future. Compulsive morseodist behavior.

Or, that morse testing has to continue for "traditional"
reasons (and because olde-tyme hammes are pished
out and insist all newcomers have to "work as hard" as
they did...because).

An anachronism.

Yes, but all newcomers MUST do so, to "demonstrate their
committment and dedication to all others." :-)

It might also be about 26 patents when only 1 exists or
shooting bears from an aircraft carrier or some Chesty
Puller wanna-be saying "I was in seven hostile actions"
and never revealing the When or Where of those. It could
also be those old-tyme hammes who made big noises
about "I design and build my own ham radios" who, a few
days later would talk a lot about his latest Kit project.

I've never seen orders for the seven hostile actions. They must not
have actually occurred. I've never seen the schematics for the home
designed (by a PE) amateur radio station. Perhaps they don't exist.
Perhaps they do.

Irrelevant. If nursie say so, it is so. All others "LIE!" :-)

Of course, those same individuals have to misdirect a thread
into their oh-so-very-important-personal-battles in order to
diss-and-cuss those of opposite opinions.

One in particular.

Most readers realize this. That particular writer doesn't.

This thread started out about Phonetic Alphabets. The "Able,
Baker, Charlie..." U.S. phonetic alphabet is familiar to me
because I learned it and used it in the U.S. Army. That set
was replaced by the NATO phonetic alphabet ("Alpha, Bravo..")
adopted in 1955. I am familiar with that since I was IN the
U.S. Army at that time, learned it and used it in military
communications. That's unalterable fact despite what those
weren't born then or mere infants at the time say.

Strange coincidence. I learned it in the U.S. military also.

Amazine coincidence, isn't it? :-)

The NATO phonetic alphabet was adopted by the International
Civil Aviation Organization shortly after the U.S. military adopted
it. Some in here want to argue and argue that phonetic alphabet
is called the "ICAO phonetic alphabet." That's rather petty.
NATO had it first. That's unalterable fact. All the aggressive
argumentation going on in here seems to be little more than a
disguise to diss-and-cuss certain personalities, certainly not
the subject matter.

LHA / WMD

No Content in all of that agressive argumentation.

"No Content International" - the opponent group of the PCTA against
No Code International.

Beep beep uber alles.

LHA / WMD

(Len Over 21) wrote in message ...
In article ,
(William) writes:

(Len Over 21) wrote in message
...
In article ,
(Steve
Robeson K4CAP) writes:

Subject: Temper Fry, Was Able Baker Charlie
From: (Len Over 21)
Date: 6/14/2004 11:31 PM Central Standard Time
Message-id:

This isn't Burger King and you cannot have it your way.

As I am sure you have suffered many a sleepless night trying to draft
some
witty "comeback" for yet another bloodletting of one of YOUR posts,
Lennie!

"Bloodletting?" :-) Poor baby, so easily injured are you?

Bon apetit and temper fry...

Seems I am not the one with an appetite problem, Lennie.

Have you seen a doctor about your problem, puppetnursie?

He did appear a little "puffy" in his CAP flight suit. I wonder if
the CAP has a "weight management" program for those that like to
pretend they're thin when they're not.

Not to worry. CAP pays for all that avgas. They just load
an extra hundred pounds of avgas for the heavier payload.

They need to consult with a loadmaster on where he sould be seated on
the plane. We don't want a military jet to crab, yaw, and roll
because of a puffy load.

Or do you do your own diagnoses, like practicing medicine
without the legal license? [a big no-no in most states]

He no do nuttin illegal. He one squared away marine. All his stuff
in one sock.

Get some mental therapy, puppetnursie. That would help all
those around you...if not yourself...

He no care 'bout others.

I disagree. He has to keep all those personalities in order.
Must be quite a coordination session every day in there...

No doubt he rules them with an iron fist. He's got a lot of trouble
makers in there.

Sociopathy CAN be cured.

I'll bet this case cannot.

I'm optimistic normally, but you may be right...

LHA / WMD

I'd hate to be right this once.

(Len Over 21) wrote in
:

In article ,
(William) writes:

(Avery Fineman) wrote in message
...
In article ,
(Brian Kelly) writes:

(N2EY) wrote in message
...

and I mention that
the U.S. military quit using manual telegraphy for fixed-point
communications in 1948.

They did? Everywhere?

Or did they simply start phasing it out in 1948?

And what about non-fixed-point communications, such as between
ships?

And what about the CW courses still being taught at Fort
Huncha-something somewhere in the southwest? Ohyez, the feds still
have an abiding and ongoing interest in the use of CW.

"Abiding?!?" Crock.

Fort Huachuca is the Military Intelligence center for the U.S.
Army.

One duty of M.I. is to run intercepts on foreign communications.

Some foeign countries still think that manual telegraphy is
"effective" so the M.I. teach morse code to intercept
analysts. For LISTENING.

The only "use" for morse code is in LISTENING, of intercepts,
ELINT.

The U.S. military does NOT use manual telegraphy for
radio communications. [USN blinker lights are not radio]

The Signal Corps is the communications branch of the Army.
The Signal Center is at Fort Gordon, GA. The Signal Center
doesn't teach any morse code receiving or sending.

Katapult Kellie should valve off all that steam and join the
rest of the world in this new millennium.

Good luck on that one, now...

LHA / WMD

Even the FCC and VEC's quit administering a Morse sending test. They
only administered a receiving test.

Hmmmmm?

Maybe the sending test would have been a disincentive to CW use on HF.

There must be some mental block induced by too much
morsemanship. The morsemen can't understand reality.

Or, they are so immersed in their only radio service active
in morsemenship that they are totally blind to all other radio
services. Might be a good project for some PhD candidate in
psychology as a Dissertation.

Time has stopped for the morsemen. They continue to live in
the past, imagining glories lives of navel high society, "hostile
actions," mighty titles of importance, all from morsemanship
credentialism.

Back some 49 years ago, NATO released their phonetic
alphabet. Phonetic alphabets are of no use for manual
telegraphy...apply only to voice communications. Just the
same, the morsemen keep insisting everyone still uses "CW"
(manual on-off carrier keying telegraphy) for military
communications.

Their minds are warped, living in fantasies of their own beeping.

LHA / WMD

Yes, they are living in the past. This has nothing to do with the merits or
otherwise of their beloved mode, simply that the world has unquestionably
moved on and they have not.

It brings me in mind of the Jethro Tull song "Too Old to Rock 'n' Roll, Too
Young To Die", not just the title, but all the words. As any afficionado
knows, this of course appeared on an album entitled "Living In The Past"!
This is the ultimate anthem to clinging to youth, which we all tend to do,
even those of us who can't stand that d*mn bleeping!

If you listen to/read the lyrics of the whole song, you'll see that Ian
Anderson saw it as no bad thing. What is truly pernicious, and constitutes
the difference between him and them, is that so many morsemen want to drag
others kicking and screaming into the past!

73 de Alun, N3KIP

In article ,
(William) writes:

(Len Over 21) wrote in message
...
In article ,
(William) writes:

(Len Over 21) wrote in message
...
In article ,
(Steve
Robeson K4CAP) writes:

Subject: Temper Fry, Was Able Baker Charlie
From: (Len Over 21)
Date: 6/14/2004 11:31 PM Central Standard Time
Message-id:

This isn't Burger King and you cannot have it your way.

As I am sure you have suffered many a sleepless night trying to
draft
some
witty "comeback" for yet another bloodletting of one of YOUR posts,
Lennie!

"Bloodletting?" :-) Poor baby, so easily injured are you?

Bon apetit and temper fry...

Seems I am not the one with an appetite problem, Lennie.

Have you seen a doctor about your problem, puppetnursie?

He did appear a little "puffy" in his CAP flight suit. I wonder if
the CAP has a "weight management" program for those that like to
pretend they're thin when they're not.

Not to worry. CAP pays for all that avgas. They just load
an extra hundred pounds of avgas for the heavier payload.

They need to consult with a loadmaster on where he sould be seated on
the plane. We don't want a military jet to crab, yaw, and roll
because of a puffy load.

Too much crab and roll input can make one puffy.

By saying "yaw" to more intake, it gets worse!

Or do you do your own diagnoses, like practicing medicine
without the legal license? [a big no-no in most states]

He no do nuttin illegal. He one squared away marine. All his stuff
in one sock.

Get some mental therapy, puppetnursie. That would help all
those around you...if not yourself...

He no care 'bout others.

I disagree. He has to keep all those personalities in order.
Must be quite a coordination session every day in there...

No doubt he rules them with an iron fist. He's got a lot of trouble
makers in there.

Too bad Fox News can't get in there and show it live.

Would be a fun show. Like the old Destruction Derby!

Sociopathy CAN be cured.

I'll bet this case cannot.

I'm optimistic normally, but you may be right...

LHA / WMD

I'd hate to be right this once.

Luck of the draw. Sometimes you win!

LHA / WMD

In article , Alun
writes:

(Len Over 21) wrote in
:

In article ,
(William) writes:

(Avery Fineman) wrote in message
...
In article ,
(Brian Kelly) writes:

(N2EY) wrote in message
...

and I mention that
the U.S. military quit using manual telegraphy for fixed-point
communications in 1948.

They did? Everywhere?

Or did they simply start phasing it out in 1948?

And what about non-fixed-point communications, such as between
ships?

And what about the CW courses still being taught at Fort
Huncha-something somewhere in the southwest? Ohyez, the feds still
have an abiding and ongoing interest in the use of CW.

"Abiding?!?" Crock.

Fort Huachuca is the Military Intelligence center for the U.S.
Army.

One duty of M.I. is to run intercepts on foreign communications.

Some foeign countries still think that manual telegraphy is
"effective" so the M.I. teach morse code to intercept
analysts. For LISTENING.

The only "use" for morse code is in LISTENING, of intercepts,
ELINT.

The U.S. military does NOT use manual telegraphy for
radio communications. [USN blinker lights are not radio]

The Signal Corps is the communications branch of the Army.
The Signal Center is at Fort Gordon, GA. The Signal Center
doesn't teach any morse code receiving or sending.

Katapult Kellie should valve off all that steam and join the
rest of the world in this new millennium.

Good luck on that one, now...

LHA / WMD

Even the FCC and VEC's quit administering a Morse sending test. They
only administered a receiving test.

Hmmmmm?

Maybe the sending test would have been a disincentive to CW use on HF.

There must be some mental block induced by too much
morsemanship. The morsemen can't understand reality.

Or, they are so immersed in their only radio service active
in morsemenship that they are totally blind to all other radio
services. Might be a good project for some PhD candidate in
psychology as a Dissertation.

Time has stopped for the morsemen. They continue to live in
the past, imagining glories lives of navel high society, "hostile
actions," mighty titles of importance, all from morsemanship
credentialism.

Back some 49 years ago, NATO released their phonetic
alphabet. Phonetic alphabets are of no use for manual
telegraphy...apply only to voice communications. Just the
same, the morsemen keep insisting everyone still uses "CW"
(manual on-off carrier keying telegraphy) for military
communications.

Their minds are warped, living in fantasies of their own beeping.

LHA / WMD

Yes, they are living in the past. This has nothing to do with the merits or
otherwise of their beloved mode, simply that the world has unquestionably
moved on and they have not.

It brings me in mind of the Jethro Tull song "Too Old to Rock 'n' Roll, Too
Young To Die", not just the title, but all the words. As any afficionado
knows, this of course appeared on an album entitled "Living In The Past"!
This is the ultimate anthem to clinging to youth, which we all tend to do,
even those of us who can't stand that d*mn bleeping!

Alun, wait until you attend some anniversary thing, like my
wife and I did in 2001 for the 50th Reunion of our senior high
school class in the midwest. Not only was that fun, it was an
ice-water bath on "wanting" to recapture one's youth...or, for
some others, to desperately seek to return. :-)

If you listen to/read the lyrics of the whole song, you'll see that Ian
Anderson saw it as no bad thing. What is truly pernicious, and constitutes
the difference between him and them, is that so many morsemen want to drag
others kicking and screaming into the past!

I suggested Brainwashing was responsible some time ago.

I've also said it was an extension of the human territorial
imperative - their "turf." They MUST defend turf! What they
did was so awesome, so perfect, and so hard, that all must
exactly emulate their mighty and powerful accomplishments!

Funny in a way. I described my military assignment at ADA
a half century ago - which I wouldn't care to repeat at all - and
all the beepers in here went bonkers. They screamed and
hollered, called lots of bad names, made snarly comments
about "trying to be superior, etc." when all it did for me was
to convert me from the previous opinion of radio as "belonging
to amateur style (of pre-WW2 days) as shown in ham mags"
into the reality of big-leagues HF radio communications. ADA
was only about the third largest in the Army net but it was
impressive as heck in 1953 with three dozen HF transmitters
and doing 220 thousand messages a month traffic in 1955.

The general commentary was probably based on simple
envy because only Hans Brakob in here has any comparable
military communications experience. Jim Hampton comes
close. Brian Burke was in military meteorology not
communications but the met guys need radio communications.
State Department isn't strictly military and most of the postings
of that "foreign service" person weren't to massive messaging
embassies. Since the U.S. military hasn't used manual
telegraphy for fixed-point to fixed-point communications since
1948, the PCTA got all angry and frustrated about not not
loving morsemanship or pledging allegiance to the key.
[from time to time the Armenian judges chanted and
demanded a recount...]

It got worse after my initial posting about military radio
experience. My whole career was labeled in the worst
possible light, even to one saying all I said was a "lie" and
so forth...that I "disgraced the IEEE" by existing. :-)

It even got to the point where another professional in the
industry started sneering and nastygraming about my
(actual radio) experience as a design engineer...all because
of not loving and cherishing morse...and for not following up
on "life promises (always to be kept)" which became to
bizarre for words. :-)

Now there are long, lonnng, lonnnnng posts on politics and
very one-sided emotional diatribes of presidential candidates
where all that bandwidth could have been used for the actual
subject heading (BPL) which is a direct threat to anyone who
uses HF. Not one peep (except from me and Mike Coslo) on
the subject of BPL.

I guess that Raging Against People Never Met is the whole
parcel of what this newsgrope is about...

"Alun" wrote in message
...

Yes, they are living in the past. This has nothing to do with the merits
or
otherwise of their beloved mode, simply that the world has unquestionably
moved on and they have not.


The merits of the CW mode have been presented many times and in depth.

It wasn't the "new" hams that came up with RTTY, packet, satellite, PSK31
and the many advances in ham radio communications. Instead, it was the
experienced hams. The experienced hams have moved on while the new,
inexperienced hams are too often afraid to experience the full range of ham
activities and deny themselves the ability to make judgements based on
personal experience. Too often they instead listen to other inexperienced
hams and make decisions based on incomplete and inaccurate data.

It was not the new hams that I heard last fall several days after the major
flares and auroras discussing on SSB how they had to shift from PSK31 to CW
as the auroral activity was causing terrible phase shifts in the PSK31 and
how they had to wait to establish SSB communications until the effects of
the flares had passed.

Dee D. Flint, N8UZE

On 20 Jun 2004 16:23:08 -0700, (Brian Kelly) wrote:

And what about the CW courses still being taught at Fort
Huncha-something somewhere in the southwest?

I don't know whether they're teaching CW courses there or not, but I
suspect you're referring to Fort Huachuca, in Arizona, which is
headquarters for Army Intelligence training.

Spelling it is admittedly a bitch. I had to double-check to make sure
I had it right, and I worked 'em during the Armed Forces Day
cross-band MARS/Amateur activity a few years back (Fort Huachuca is
also Western Area Gateway for Army MARS).

73 DE John D. Kasupski
Tonawanda, New York, USA
Amateur Radio (KC2HMZ), HF/VHF/UHF Monitoring (KNY2VS)
Member ARATS, ARES, RACES, WUN