(Avery Fineman) wrote in message ...
In article ,
(Brian Kelly) writes:

(N2EY) wrote in message
...

and I mention that
the U.S. military quit using manual telegraphy for fixed-point
communications in 1948.

They did? Everywhere?

Or did they simply start phasing it out in 1948?

And what about non-fixed-point communications, such as between ships?

And what about the CW courses still being taught at Fort
Huncha-something somewhere in the southwest? Ohyez, the feds still
have an abiding and ongoing interest in the use of CW.

"Abiding?!?" Crock.

Fort Huachuca is the Military Intelligence center for the U.S. Army.

One duty of M.I. is to run intercepts on foreign communications.

Some foeign countries still think that manual telegraphy is
"effective" so the M.I. teach morse code to intercept
analysts. For LISTENING.

The only "use" for morse code is in LISTENING, of intercepts,
ELINT.

The U.S. military does NOT use manual telegraphy for
radio communications. [USN blinker lights are not radio]

The Signal Corps is the communications branch of the Army.
The Signal Center is at Fort Gordon, GA. The Signal Center
doesn't teach any morse code receiving or sending.

Katapult Kellie should valve off all that steam and join the
rest of the world in this new millennium.

Good luck on that one, now...

LHA / WMD

Even the FCC and VEC's quit administering a Morse sending test. They
only administered a receiving test.

Hmmmmm?

Maybe the sending test would have been a disincentive to CW use on HF.

In article ,
(William) writes:

(Avery Fineman) wrote in message
...
In article ,

(Brian Kelly) writes:

(N2EY) wrote in message
...

and I mention that
the U.S. military quit using manual telegraphy for fixed-point
communications in 1948.

They did? Everywhere?

Or did they simply start phasing it out in 1948?

And what about non-fixed-point communications, such as between ships?

And what about the CW courses still being taught at Fort
Huncha-something somewhere in the southwest? Ohyez, the feds still
have an abiding and ongoing interest in the use of CW.

"Abiding?!?" Crock.

Fort Huachuca is the Military Intelligence center for the U.S. Army.

One duty of M.I. is to run intercepts on foreign communications.

Some foeign countries still think that manual telegraphy is
"effective" so the M.I. teach morse code to intercept
analysts. For LISTENING.

The only "use" for morse code is in LISTENING, of intercepts,
ELINT.

The U.S. military does NOT use manual telegraphy for
radio communications. [USN blinker lights are not radio]

The Signal Corps is the communications branch of the Army.
The Signal Center is at Fort Gordon, GA. The Signal Center
doesn't teach any morse code receiving or sending.

Katapult Kellie should valve off all that steam and join the
rest of the world in this new millennium.

Good luck on that one, now...

LHA / WMD

Even the FCC and VEC's quit administering a Morse sending test. They
only administered a receiving test.

Hmmmmm?

Maybe the sending test would have been a disincentive to CW use on HF.

There must be some mental block induced by too much
morsemanship. The morsemen can't understand reality.

Or, they are so immersed in their only radio service active
in morsemenship that they are totally blind to all other radio
services. Might be a good project for some PhD candidate in
psychology as a Dissertation.

Time has stopped for the morsemen. They continue to live in
the past, imagining glories lives of navel high society, "hostile
actions," mighty titles of importance, all from morsemanship
credentialism.

Back some 49 years ago, NATO released their phonetic
alphabet. Phonetic alphabets are of no use for manual
telegraphy...apply only to voice communications. Just the
same, the morsemen keep insisting everyone still uses "CW"
(manual on-off carrier keying telegraphy) for military
communications.

Their minds are warped, living in fantasies of their own beeping.

LHA / WMD

(Len Over 21) wrote in
:

In article ,
(William) writes:

(Avery Fineman) wrote in message
...
In article ,
(Brian Kelly) writes:

(N2EY) wrote in message
...

and I mention that
the U.S. military quit using manual telegraphy for fixed-point
communications in 1948.

They did? Everywhere?

Or did they simply start phasing it out in 1948?

And what about non-fixed-point communications, such as between
ships?

And what about the CW courses still being taught at Fort
Huncha-something somewhere in the southwest? Ohyez, the feds still
have an abiding and ongoing interest in the use of CW.

"Abiding?!?" Crock.

Fort Huachuca is the Military Intelligence center for the U.S.
Army.

One duty of M.I. is to run intercepts on foreign communications.

Some foeign countries still think that manual telegraphy is
"effective" so the M.I. teach morse code to intercept
analysts. For LISTENING.

The only "use" for morse code is in LISTENING, of intercepts,
ELINT.

The U.S. military does NOT use manual telegraphy for
radio communications. [USN blinker lights are not radio]

The Signal Corps is the communications branch of the Army.
The Signal Center is at Fort Gordon, GA. The Signal Center
doesn't teach any morse code receiving or sending.

Katapult Kellie should valve off all that steam and join the
rest of the world in this new millennium.

Good luck on that one, now...

LHA / WMD

Even the FCC and VEC's quit administering a Morse sending test. They
only administered a receiving test.

Hmmmmm?

Maybe the sending test would have been a disincentive to CW use on HF.

There must be some mental block induced by too much
morsemanship. The morsemen can't understand reality.

Or, they are so immersed in their only radio service active
in morsemenship that they are totally blind to all other radio
services. Might be a good project for some PhD candidate in
psychology as a Dissertation.

Time has stopped for the morsemen. They continue to live in
the past, imagining glories lives of navel high society, "hostile
actions," mighty titles of importance, all from morsemanship
credentialism.

Back some 49 years ago, NATO released their phonetic
alphabet. Phonetic alphabets are of no use for manual
telegraphy...apply only to voice communications. Just the
same, the morsemen keep insisting everyone still uses "CW"
(manual on-off carrier keying telegraphy) for military
communications.

Their minds are warped, living in fantasies of their own beeping.

LHA / WMD

Yes, they are living in the past. This has nothing to do with the merits or
otherwise of their beloved mode, simply that the world has unquestionably
moved on and they have not.

It brings me in mind of the Jethro Tull song "Too Old to Rock 'n' Roll, Too
Young To Die", not just the title, but all the words. As any afficionado
knows, this of course appeared on an album entitled "Living In The Past"!
This is the ultimate anthem to clinging to youth, which we all tend to do,
even those of us who can't stand that d*mn bleeping!

If you listen to/read the lyrics of the whole song, you'll see that Ian
Anderson saw it as no bad thing. What is truly pernicious, and constitutes
the difference between him and them, is that so many morsemen want to drag
others kicking and screaming into the past!

73 de Alun, N3KIP

In article , Alun
writes:

(Len Over 21) wrote in
:

In article ,
(William) writes:

(Avery Fineman) wrote in message
...
In article ,
(Brian Kelly) writes:

(N2EY) wrote in message
...

and I mention that
the U.S. military quit using manual telegraphy for fixed-point
communications in 1948.

They did? Everywhere?

Or did they simply start phasing it out in 1948?

And what about non-fixed-point communications, such as between
ships?

And what about the CW courses still being taught at Fort
Huncha-something somewhere in the southwest? Ohyez, the feds still
have an abiding and ongoing interest in the use of CW.

"Abiding?!?" Crock.

Fort Huachuca is the Military Intelligence center for the U.S.
Army.

One duty of M.I. is to run intercepts on foreign communications.

Some foeign countries still think that manual telegraphy is
"effective" so the M.I. teach morse code to intercept
analysts. For LISTENING.

The only "use" for morse code is in LISTENING, of intercepts,
ELINT.

The U.S. military does NOT use manual telegraphy for
radio communications. [USN blinker lights are not radio]

The Signal Corps is the communications branch of the Army.
The Signal Center is at Fort Gordon, GA. The Signal Center
doesn't teach any morse code receiving or sending.

Katapult Kellie should valve off all that steam and join the
rest of the world in this new millennium.

Good luck on that one, now...

LHA / WMD

Even the FCC and VEC's quit administering a Morse sending test. They
only administered a receiving test.

Hmmmmm?

Maybe the sending test would have been a disincentive to CW use on HF.

There must be some mental block induced by too much
morsemanship. The morsemen can't understand reality.

Or, they are so immersed in their only radio service active
in morsemenship that they are totally blind to all other radio
services. Might be a good project for some PhD candidate in
psychology as a Dissertation.

Time has stopped for the morsemen. They continue to live in
the past, imagining glories lives of navel high society, "hostile
actions," mighty titles of importance, all from morsemanship
credentialism.

Back some 49 years ago, NATO released their phonetic
alphabet. Phonetic alphabets are of no use for manual
telegraphy...apply only to voice communications. Just the
same, the morsemen keep insisting everyone still uses "CW"
(manual on-off carrier keying telegraphy) for military
communications.

Their minds are warped, living in fantasies of their own beeping.

LHA / WMD

Yes, they are living in the past. This has nothing to do with the merits or
otherwise of their beloved mode, simply that the world has unquestionably
moved on and they have not.

It brings me in mind of the Jethro Tull song "Too Old to Rock 'n' Roll, Too
Young To Die", not just the title, but all the words. As any afficionado
knows, this of course appeared on an album entitled "Living In The Past"!
This is the ultimate anthem to clinging to youth, which we all tend to do,
even those of us who can't stand that d*mn bleeping!

Alun, wait until you attend some anniversary thing, like my
wife and I did in 2001 for the 50th Reunion of our senior high
school class in the midwest. Not only was that fun, it was an
ice-water bath on "wanting" to recapture one's youth...or, for
some others, to desperately seek to return. :-)

If you listen to/read the lyrics of the whole song, you'll see that Ian
Anderson saw it as no bad thing. What is truly pernicious, and constitutes
the difference between him and them, is that so many morsemen want to drag
others kicking and screaming into the past!

I suggested Brainwashing was responsible some time ago.

I've also said it was an extension of the human territorial
imperative - their "turf." They MUST defend turf! What they
did was so awesome, so perfect, and so hard, that all must
exactly emulate their mighty and powerful accomplishments!

Funny in a way. I described my military assignment at ADA
a half century ago - which I wouldn't care to repeat at all - and
all the beepers in here went bonkers. They screamed and
hollered, called lots of bad names, made snarly comments
about "trying to be superior, etc." when all it did for me was
to convert me from the previous opinion of radio as "belonging
to amateur style (of pre-WW2 days) as shown in ham mags"
into the reality of big-leagues HF radio communications. ADA
was only about the third largest in the Army net but it was
impressive as heck in 1953 with three dozen HF transmitters
and doing 220 thousand messages a month traffic in 1955.

The general commentary was probably based on simple
envy because only Hans Brakob in here has any comparable
military communications experience. Jim Hampton comes
close. Brian Burke was in military meteorology not
communications but the met guys need radio communications.
State Department isn't strictly military and most of the postings
of that "foreign service" person weren't to massive messaging
embassies. Since the U.S. military hasn't used manual
telegraphy for fixed-point to fixed-point communications since
1948, the PCTA got all angry and frustrated about not not
loving morsemanship or pledging allegiance to the key.
[from time to time the Armenian judges chanted and
demanded a recount...]

It got worse after my initial posting about military radio
experience. My whole career was labeled in the worst
possible light, even to one saying all I said was a "lie" and
so forth...that I "disgraced the IEEE" by existing. :-)

It even got to the point where another professional in the
industry started sneering and nastygraming about my
(actual radio) experience as a design engineer...all because
of not loving and cherishing morse...and for not following up
on "life promises (always to be kept)" which became to
bizarre for words. :-)

Now there are long, lonnng, lonnnnng posts on politics and
very one-sided emotional diatribes of presidential candidates
where all that bandwidth could have been used for the actual
subject heading (BPL) which is a direct threat to anyone who
uses HF. Not one peep (except from me and Mike Coslo) on
the subject of BPL.

I guess that Raging Against People Never Met is the whole
parcel of what this newsgrope is about...

"Alun" wrote in message
...

Yes, they are living in the past. This has nothing to do with the merits
or
otherwise of their beloved mode, simply that the world has unquestionably
moved on and they have not.


The merits of the CW mode have been presented many times and in depth.

It wasn't the "new" hams that came up with RTTY, packet, satellite, PSK31
and the many advances in ham radio communications. Instead, it was the
experienced hams. The experienced hams have moved on while the new,
inexperienced hams are too often afraid to experience the full range of ham
activities and deny themselves the ability to make judgements based on
personal experience. Too often they instead listen to other inexperienced
hams and make decisions based on incomplete and inaccurate data.

It was not the new hams that I heard last fall several days after the major
flares and auroras discussing on SSB how they had to shift from PSK31 to CW
as the auroral activity was causing terrible phase shifts in the PSK31 and
how they had to wait to establish SSB communications until the effects of
the flares had passed.

Dee D. Flint, N8UZE

"Dee D. Flint" wrote in
:


"Alun" wrote in message
...

Yes, they are living in the past. This has nothing to do with the
merits or otherwise of their beloved mode, simply that the world has
unquestionably moved on and they have not.


The merits of the CW mode have been presented many times and in depth.

It wasn't the "new" hams that came up with RTTY, packet, satellite,
PSK31 and the many advances in ham radio communications. Instead, it
was the experienced hams. The experienced hams have moved on while the
new, inexperienced hams are too often afraid to experience the full
range of ham activities and deny themselves the ability to make
judgements based on personal experience. Too often they instead listen
to other inexperienced hams and make decisions based on incomplete and
inaccurate data.

It was not the new hams that I heard last fall several days after the
major flares and auroras discussing on SSB how they had to shift from
PSK31 to CW as the auroral activity was causing terrible phase shifts
in the PSK31 and how they had to wait to establish SSB communications
until the effects of the flares had passed.

Dee D. Flint, N8UZE



We have indeed debated the relative merits many times. I could make a case
for other modes, but it isn't the issue. Nor is experience the issue here.
If it were it would degenerate into analysing different kinds of
experience. This in turn is entirely self-defeating, as usually only those
who actually like CW have a lot of experience in using it. OTOH, I have
held a ham licence for 24 years, which is a significant amount of time, but
of course without using CW it doesn't count :-)

The issue is living in the past, harmless and perhaps even admirable in
itself, but not something to force upon others if one has a proper sense of
decency. Morse is an antiquarian mode, dropped by every other service. It
does indeed have advantages, but then so does spark, and so does joining
two tin cans with a piece of string. Any self-respecting debater could make
a good case for standing on hilltops waving semaphore flags.

In my musical analogy the aging rocker in the song 'wore his trouser cuffs
too tight', but he didn't say we all have to dress that way. The 'morse
forever' crew are effectively saying we all have to 'wear our trouser cuffs
too tight' in the style of long ago. Ultimately, it's just an extremely
silly point of view. However, if it weren't so deeply held we wouldn't be
arguing about it. Unfortunately, it seems likely only to fade away along
with those who beleieve in it.

73 de Alun, N3KIP

In article , Alun
writes:

"Dee D. Flint" wrote in
:

"Alun" wrote in message
...

Yes, they are living in the past. This has nothing to do with the
merits or otherwise of their beloved mode, simply that the world has
unquestionably moved on and they have not.


The merits of the CW mode have been presented many times and in depth.

It wasn't the "new" hams that came up with RTTY, packet, satellite,
PSK31 and the many advances in ham radio communications. Instead, it
was the experienced hams. The experienced hams have moved on while the
new, inexperienced hams are too often afraid to experience the full
range of ham activities and deny themselves the ability to make
judgements based on personal experience. Too often they instead listen
to other inexperienced hams and make decisions based on incomplete and
inaccurate data.

It was not the new hams that I heard last fall several days after the
major flares and auroras discussing on SSB how they had to shift from
PSK31 to CW as the auroral activity was causing terrible phase shifts
in the PSK31 and how they had to wait to establish SSB communications
until the effects of the flares had passed.

Dee D. Flint, N8UZE

We have indeed debated the relative merits many times. I could make a case
for other modes, but it isn't the issue. Nor is experience the issue here.
If it were it would degenerate into analysing different kinds of
experience. This in turn is entirely self-defeating, as usually only those
who actually like CW have a lot of experience in using it. OTOH, I have
held a ham licence for 24 years, which is a significant amount of time, but
of course without using CW it doesn't count :-)

The issue is living in the past, harmless and perhaps even admirable in
itself, but not something to force upon others if one has a proper sense of
decency. Morse is an antiquarian mode, dropped by every other service. It
does indeed have advantages, but then so does spark, and so does joining
two tin cans with a piece of string. Any self-respecting debater could make
a good case for standing on hilltops waving semaphore flags.

Heh heh heh. The collar insignia of the U.S.Army Signal Corps
is a torch over crossed signal flags...for the visual semaphores
used before the American Civil War. Both sides used exactly
the same signalling protocols during that War...not a heckuvalot
of "communications security" then!

That high-tech, all-weather commo system called the "telegraph"
was used then, too, but both sides forbade its use for "secure"
(encrypted) messaging because "telegraph lines were too easy
to intercept!" [I kid you not]

Yeah, like with that high-tech landline morse, there were "high-
impedance taps" either side could use to bug the other side?
Anyone just listening to the sounders (with or without knowing
morse) could detect when a tap was put on a line...same
sounder types were used on both sides and putting two on the
same line made a significant change in the sounder sound.

But, the visual semaphoring, rather older than new-fangled
telegraphy, was good, familiar stuff and everyone felt warm and
fuzzy using that...in clear!

A small vignette to illustrate that older ain't necessarily better
and the first commo system (semaphore) wasn't at all the "best."

On-off keying telegraphy was the ONLY way the first radios
could be used for communications. So, on the basis of being
the "first," the morse-aholics want to force "CW" on everyone
forever and ever for "tradition sake!"

Brain-dead emotionalism!

'Scure me, I gonna call up Aurora and tell her to quit messing
around with phase-shifting all that PSK31! Not nice.

Beep, beep...

LHA / WMD

In article , "Dee D. Flint"
writes:

"Alun" wrote in message
.. .

Yes, they are living in the past. This has nothing to do with the merits
or
otherwise of their beloved mode, simply that the world has unquestionably
moved on and they have not.

The merits of the CW mode have been presented many times and in depth.

As well as the demerits...

It wasn't the "new" hams that came up with RTTY, packet, satellite, PSK31
and the many advances in ham radio communications. Instead, it was the
experienced hams.

Tsk, tsk. RTTY, packet, satellite, FAX, were all done by the
commercial radio services long before.

Peter Martinez, G3PLX, devised PSK31 in the UK and Yurp hams
did the trials and testings on the air. Took a while before the
"experienced hams" of the USA to try it out.

The experienced hams have moved on while the new,
inexperienced hams are too often afraid to experience the full range of ham
activities and deny themselves the ability to make judgements based on
personal experience. Too often they instead listen to other inexperienced
hams and make decisions based on incomplete and inaccurate data.

Such as that old familiar, "CW gets through when nothing else will?"

Actually, Brian Burke had it correct: "CW gets through when
everything else will."

Sunnuvagun!

It was not the new hams that I heard last fall several days after the major
flares and auroras discussing on SSB how they had to shift from PSK31 to CW
as the auroral activity was causing terrible phase shifts in the PSK31 and
how they had to wait to establish SSB communications until the effects of
the flares had passed.

Oh, that nasty old phase shift!

I guess that the shortwave radio broadcasters doing DRM (Digital
Radio Mondial) are all technically inept because they've been
doing DRM testing successfully for a bit over three years now!

Guess nobody told them about nasty old phase shifts from auroras
and stuff!

12 KHz commercial-military multi-voice-channel SSB has been
working on HF since the 1930s. Guess nobody told those many
HF sidebanders that nasty old aurora phase shift would shut
them down, ey?

Sunnuvagun! and How About That?! :-)