N2EY wrote:

In article , JJ
writes:


Now we will see if the FCC will abide by their own part 15 rules and
shut BPL down until when/if the problem is fixed. Anyone want to bet
they don't?


No.

I think/hope what will really kill BPL is economics. It simply won't be able to
compete with DSL, cable and other technologies.


So many times in history, Ideology has chosen to ignore everything but
that ideology's belief. That is one of the reasons that idealogs hate
science.

As absurd as it may seem, the BPL push is part of current ideology. As
such, as long as the current ideology is in place, BPL WILL HAPPEN! Once
it comes up against science and laws of nature, as well as the
marketplace, it will quite simply fail.

- Mike KB3EIA -

In article , Mike Coslo
writes:

N2EY wrote:

In article , JJ
writes:

Now we will see if the FCC will abide by their own part 15 rules and
shut BPL down until when/if the problem is fixed. Anyone want to bet
they don't?

No.

I think/hope what will really kill BPL is economics. It simply won't be able
to
compete with DSL, cable and other technologies.

So many times in history, Ideology has chosen to ignore everything but
that ideology's belief. That is one of the reasons that idealogs hate
science.

As absurd as it may seem, the BPL push is part of current ideology. As
such, as long as the current ideology is in place, BPL WILL HAPPEN! Once
it comes up against science and laws of nature, as well as the
marketplace, it will quite simply fail.

Sad to say, BPL (and PLC) already happened. Three areas now and
a fourth coming on-line soon in the USA.

According to NTIA and that wonderful Michael Gallagher (Asst.
something or other there) praising the snit out of BPL, BPL offers
some wonderful things ahead -

1. Powerline noise will actually DROP as a result of installing BPL
since untilies must fix that in order for BPL to get data through!

2. Existing BPL systems 'merely' raise the HF noise floor the
small amount of 10 db. Not a problem says them in Phase
2 study.

3. President Bush (the younger) says "the country needs BPL"
and the party faithfull followers reprise that throwaway mantra.
Ergo, if da Prez say 'we' need it, then 'we' need it. End msg.

"Idealogues?" Nah. "Take-the-lobbyist-handout-monies-and-run-
logues."

Don't worry about any HF receiver sensitivity values in the future.
Won't matter. Noise floor will have moved up 10 db and a Noise
Factor of 20+ in a front end will do the job in that hash.

It would seem prudent to have the ARRL petition the FCC to raise amateur
power limits to partially recover that lost 10 dB. I think perhaps a 10 kw
limit would be close enough. It might also make BPL communications a bit
dicey too

Seriously, however, it is going to be interesting when BPL lines are found
adjacent to an active amateurs' property. BPL *will* be affected by rf.
Fire up your gallons.


73 from Rochester, NY
Jim AA2QA


"Len Over 21" wrote in message
...
In article , Mike Coslo
writes:

N2EY wrote:

In article , JJ
writes:

Now we will see if the FCC will abide by their own part 15 rules and
shut BPL down until when/if the problem is fixed. Anyone want to bet
they don't?

No.

I think/hope what will really kill BPL is economics. It simply won't be
able
to
compete with DSL, cable and other technologies.

So many times in history, Ideology has chosen to ignore everything but
that ideology's belief. That is one of the reasons that idealogs hate
science.

As absurd as it may seem, the BPL push is part of current ideology. As
such, as long as the current ideology is in place, BPL WILL HAPPEN! Once
it comes up against science and laws of nature, as well as the
marketplace, it will quite simply fail.

Sad to say, BPL (and PLC) already happened. Three areas now and
a fourth coming on-line soon in the USA.

According to NTIA and that wonderful Michael Gallagher (Asst.
something or other there) praising the snit out of BPL, BPL offers
some wonderful things ahead -

1. Powerline noise will actually DROP as a result of installing BPL
since untilies must fix that in order for BPL to get data through!

2. Existing BPL systems 'merely' raise the HF noise floor the
small amount of 10 db. Not a problem says them in Phase
2 study.

3. President Bush (the younger) says "the country needs BPL"
and the party faithfull followers reprise that throwaway mantra.
Ergo, if da Prez say 'we' need it, then 'we' need it. End msg.

"Idealogues?" Nah. "Take-the-lobbyist-handout-monies-and-run-
logues."

Don't worry about any HF receiver sensitivity values in the future.
Won't matter. Noise floor will have moved up 10 db and a Noise
Factor of 20+ in a front end will do the job in that hash.




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Checked by AVG anti-virus system (http://www.grisoft.com).
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In article , "Jim Hampton"
writes:

It would seem prudent to have the ARRL petition the FCC to raise amateur
power limits to partially recover that lost 10 dB. I think perhaps a 10 kw
limit would be close enough. It might also make BPL communications a bit
dicey too

Har! :-) :-) :-)

I was totally flabbergasted at reading the Phase 2 report. They
boldly went where no technical person dared to go in saying
"BPL will 'improve' the electric power line noise problems!"

As of the end of the business day on Friday, 18 June 2004, the
Comment numbers in the FCC ECFS were -

docket 04-37 (NPRM) 1,399
docket 03-104 (NOI) 6,076

There's lots of more-than-one-page real technical problem
presentations there showing that Access BPL is full of snit
than there are for the BPL proponents. I don't think that will
matter much.

The writing seemed clear on the wall last year. BPL *will*
be started. The business folks are geared up for profits.
The President has made both BPL and Broadband a goal.
The good little Republican syncophants are synchronized
to The Word from on high.

It doesn't matter who wins a majority in the General Election.
BPL has started to deploy. Once it is IN, it becomes
legacy. Once the initial costs are taken care of, it is in the
regular profit time and the installers will fight tooth and nail
to keep it. The worm could turn.

With a legacy-status "utility" the BPLers could gain leverage
to actually STOP or cut down on all those nasty interfering
HF emitters...like amateur radio transmitters. Unknown, but
it is a spectre hovering in the background. Look at the troubles
some hams have in getting noisy electric power lines fixed.
Electric power distribution is very "legacy" by now and the
electric utility companies move slowly (if at all) on repairs.


Seriously, however, it is going to be interesting when BPL lines are found
adjacent to an active amateurs' property. BPL *will* be affected by rf.
Fire up your gallons.

Seriously, that's not a good idea. Hams are conditioned now
to be legal. Deliberate interference is illegal. It is much easier
to pull the tickets of a few hams doing deliberate interference
than it is to remove or reduce a legal deliberate interference
source in the form of BPL with government-accepted regulations.

All in all, though, the FCC has NO POWER to proactively stop
Access BPL now. At best all it can do is set the incidental
RF radiation levels and then enforce those. Or, wait about 30
years or so until BPL is truly legacy service and then, like
land telephony, start drafting more stringent regulations. In 30
years from now, few of us will be in a position to do much.

Len Over 21 wrote:

In article , "Jim Hampton"
writes:


It would seem prudent to have the ARRL petition the FCC to raise amateur
power limits to partially recover that lost 10 dB. I think perhaps a 10 kw
limit would be close enough. It might also make BPL communications a bit
dicey too


Har! :-) :-) :-)

I was totally flabbergasted at reading the Phase 2 report. They
boldly went where no technical person dared to go in saying
"BPL will 'improve' the electric power line noise problems!"

Ideology trumps science! Yes, that was a shocking thing to read.


As of the end of the business day on Friday, 18 June 2004, the
Comment numbers in the FCC ECFS were -

docket 04-37 (NPRM) 1,399
docket 03-104 (NOI) 6,076

There's lots of more-than-one-page real technical problem
presentations there showing that Access BPL is full of snit
than there are for the BPL proponents. I don't think that will
matter much.

The writing seemed clear on the wall last year. BPL *will*
be started. The business folks are geared up for profits.
The President has made both BPL and Broadband a goal.
The good little Republican syncophants are synchronized
to The Word from on high.

BPL = Ban Pretentious Liberals?



It doesn't matter who wins a majority in the General Election.
BPL has started to deploy. Once it is IN, it becomes
legacy. Once the initial costs are taken care of, it is in the
regular profit time and the installers will fight tooth and nail
to keep it. The worm could turn.

With a legacy-status "utility" the BPLers could gain leverage
to actually STOP or cut down on all those nasty interfering
HF emitters...like amateur radio transmitters. Unknown, but
it is a spectre hovering in the background. Look at the troubles
some hams have in getting noisy electric power lines fixed.
Electric power distribution is very "legacy" by now and the
electric utility companies move slowly (if at all) on repairs.



Seriously, however, it is going to be interesting when BPL lines are found
adjacent to an active amateurs' property. BPL *will* be affected by rf.
Fire up your gallons.


Seriously, that's not a good idea. Hams are conditioned now
to be legal. Deliberate interference is illegal. It is much easier
to pull the tickets of a few hams doing deliberate interference
than it is to remove or reduce a legal deliberate interference
source in the form of BPL with government-accepted regulations.

Hoo, we are getting close to that strange discussion we had last year
with the fellow saying that if we know that it interferes, and we
transmit, we are purposely interfereing. That's enough to give a person
a headache!

But if a person is in a neighborhood with Access BPL, they won't need
to use that linear. Seems 100 watts will do just fine. I don't know the
frequency context of BPL/Amateur transmitter interference, but my guess
is that if you hear it on the band you are transmitting on, you'll do it
interference harm if you fire up.


All in all, though, the FCC has NO POWER to proactively stop
Access BPL now. At best all it can do is set the incidental
RF radiation levels and then enforce those. Or, wait about 30
years or so until BPL is truly legacy service and then, like
land telephony, start drafting more stringent regulations. In 30
years from now, few of us will be in a position to do much.




- Mike KB3EIA -

In article , Mike Coslo
writes:

Len Over 21 wrote:

In article , "Jim Hampton"
writes:

It would seem prudent to have the ARRL petition the FCC to raise amateur
power limits to partially recover that lost 10 dB. I think perhaps a 10 kw
limit would be close enough. It might also make BPL communications a bit
dicey too

Har! :-) :-) :-)

I was totally flabbergasted at reading the Phase 2 report. They
boldly went where no technical person dared to go in saying
"BPL will 'improve' the electric power line noise problems!"

Ideology trumps science! Yes, that was a shocking thing to read.

As of the end of the business day on Friday, 18 June 2004, the
Comment numbers in the FCC ECFS were -

docket 04-37 (NPRM) 1,399
docket 03-104 (NOI) 6,076

There's lots of more-than-one-page real technical problem
presentations there showing that Access BPL is full of snit
than there are for the BPL proponents. I don't think that will
matter much.

The writing seemed clear on the wall last year. BPL *will*
be started. The business folks are geared up for profits.
The President has made both BPL and Broadband a goal.
The good little Republican syncophants are synchronized
to The Word from on high.

BPL = Ban Pretentious Liberals?

Heh. No. It doesn't matter which political power is "in power"
in DC on Access BPL. It evolved from the initial trial in
Norway a decade ago and presents a "business ideology"
(of making money) and all that capitalism stuff.

Somehow, through whatever means, the BPL advocates in the
USA convinced the FCC that it was the greatest thing since
sliced bread to fit the "broadband super highway." It just
happened that the FCC has Republican-oriented commissioners
and the Acting Chief of the NTIA is sucking up to Bush's
speech statement in rather blatant politicalization.


Hoo, we are getting close to that strange discussion we had last year
with the fellow saying that if we know that it interferes, and we
transmit, we are purposely interfereing. That's enough to give a person
a headache!

Not quite. Amateurs have to understand that they are small-time
players in this particular game. All the rah-rah and we-are-the-
greatest internal pep-talking doesn't help the image presented to
the lawmakers. It boils down to a very few individuals trying to
"get even" for incidental interference by deliberate interference
with a communications service. That service is much bigger, in
both employees and affected customers than a few hams in any
particular locality. It would be a lopsided legal fight, despite all
the whoopdedo of "helping" by the League. If Access BPL spreads
to many more communities, the League would run out of legal and
moral resources to help.

Deliberate interference isn't necessary. Ordinary operating should
be sufficient to disrupt Access BPL in any one location. Hams
would just need to transmit more and on different HF bands...not
spending more of their free time on the Internet and then writing
that "they are very active on the bands" when they were not.

But if a person is in a neighborhood with Access BPL, they won't need
to use that linear. Seems 100 watts will do just fine. I don't know the
frequency context of BPL/Amateur transmitter interference, but my guess
is that if you hear it on the band you are transmitting on, you'll do it
interference harm if you fire up.

Perhaps. Technical details of Access BPL systems have yet to
be released to the electronics industry. While that may be logical
to assume, it isn't proof positive.

All in all, though, the FCC has NO POWER to proactively stop
Access BPL now. At best all it can do is set the incidental
RF radiation levels and then enforce those. Or, wait about 30
years or so until BPL is truly legacy service and then, like
land telephony, start drafting more stringent regulations. In 30
years from now, few of us will be in a position to do much.



I left that in on purpose. Just to emphasize that the FCC CANNOT
stop Access BPL right now. But, what can be done, is to demand
TESTING of any installed systems. LOTS of it to correspond with
a wide-area installation (a logical demand).

The FCC has NO power to stop BPL directly. It's not in the rules.
[that's why docket 04-37 is concerned with an NPRM] But, by
demanding appropriate TESTING with emphasis on PASSING all
tests, THAT can make it economically infeasible.

Testing takes valuable manhours. BPL systems will be at many,
many places in one community, therefore MUCH testing is needed
for compliance. Not only does that affect the installation budget,
but it takes TIME to complete. Businesses offering broadband
services want to start making money as soon as possible (also
logical) but lots of testing and test time would delay that.

That's a realistic way of looking at the problem and a possible
way to make BPL economically difficult to sustain. However,
remember that once BPL is in-place, it will quickly become a
legacy service and damn difficult to remove.

In article , Mike Coslo
writes:

N2EY wrote:

In article , JJ
writes:

Now we will see if the FCC will abide by their own part 15 rules and
shut BPL down until when/if the problem is fixed. Anyone want to bet
they don't?

No.

I think/hope what will really kill BPL is economics. It simply won't be
able to compete with DSL, cable and other technologies.

So many times in history, Ideology has chosen to ignore everything but
that ideology's belief. That is one of the reasons that idealogs hate
science.

Yep.

They also choose to ignore the past, which is why they also hate history. You
see this in their cries of "Luddite" and "we're in a new era now" and "stop
living in the past".

As absurd as it may seem, the BPL push is part of current ideology.

Part of *some people's* current ideology.

And it may be more of a question of expediency than ideology.

The recent boom-dot-bust mess hit a lot of folks hard. While the economy slowly
recovers and unemployment drops, a lot of good (read "manufacturing jobs with
decent pay and benefits") jobs are being replaced by "service economy" jobs
(read "do you want fries with that?").

With the election only months away, the incumbents want to be seen as doing and
supporting things that will result in more "good" jobs and start another
technoboom. The reality won't hit for at least a year, at which time it can be
blamed on the "liberals" and the "antenna huggers" and such.

As
such, as long as the current ideology is in place, BPL WILL HAPPEN!

It's already in service at a few sites. The direct result of people wanting
"less regulation" and "get the government off our backs".

Once
it comes up against science and laws of nature, as well as the
marketplace, it will quite simply fail.

I hope so.

73 de Jim, N2EY

N2EY wrote:
In article , Mike Coslo
writes:


N2EY wrote:


In article , JJ
writes:



Now we will see if the FCC will abide by their own part 15 rules and
shut BPL down until when/if the problem is fixed. Anyone want to bet
they don't?



No.


I think/hope what will really kill BPL is economics. It simply won't be
able to compete with DSL, cable and other technologies.


So many times in history, Ideology has chosen to ignore everything but
that ideology's belief. That is one of the reasons that idealogs hate
science.


Yep.

They also choose to ignore the past, which is why they also hate history. You
see this in their cries of "Luddite" and "we're in a new era now" and "stop
living in the past".


As absurd as it may seem, the BPL push is part of current ideology.


Part of *some people's* current ideology.

And it may be more of a question of expediency than ideology.

The recent boom-dot-bust mess hit a lot of folks hard. While the economy slowly
recovers and unemployment drops, a lot of good (read "manufacturing jobs with
decent pay and benefits") jobs are being replaced by "service economy" jobs
(read "do you want fries with that?").

C'mon, Jim! Burger flippin' is going to be moved from "service" to
"manufacturing"

With the election only months away, the incumbents want to be seen as doing and
supporting things that will result in more "good" jobs and start another
technoboom. The reality won't hit for at least a year, at which time it can be
blamed on the "liberals" and the "antenna huggers" and such.

Repeat after me:

All problems are the fault of Liberals...
All problems are the fault of Liberals....
All problems are the fault of Liberals...

It's great. As long as you can blame everything on the dreaded liberal,
you are absolved of any blame yourself. I personally know perhaps 1500
people. Maybe only 5 or 6 are actual Liberals. And no one that thinks
like they do has been running the show in a long time. How did they get
such power to make all the problems in the world?


As such, as long as the current ideology is in place, BPL WILL HAPPEN!


It's already in service at a few sites. The direct result of people wanting
"less regulation" and "get the government off our backs".

Actually, it's just a different group making the regulations. The
golden rule, as it were.

Once
it comes up against science and laws of nature, as well as the
marketplace, it will quite simply fail.


I hope so.

Hey, just to insert something good into this depressing topic, Mike
Melville has been tapped to pilot Burt Rutan's SpaceshipOne tomorrow at
0630 PDT. If successful and he reaches suborbital flight, this will be
just about as cool an event as I've seen in years.

CNN is covering the event. Dunno why Fox isn't. Seems like private
spaceflight would be right up their alley. Maybe Burt is a Leeberal? ;^)

- Mike KB3EIA -