In article , (Steve
Robeson K4CAP) writes:

Subject: Another D-H* NCVEC proposal
From: PAMNO (N2EY)
Date: 8/13/2004 6:41 AM Central Standard Time
Message-id:

In article ,
(Steve Robeson, K4CAP) writes:

Subject: Another D-H* NCVEC proposal
From: (N2EY)
Date: 8/11/2004 11:06 AM Central Standard Time
Message-id:

(Steve Robeson K4CAP) wrote in message
...
Subject: Another D-H* NCVEC proposal
From: PAMNO (N2EY)
Date: 8/11/2004 5:08 AM Central Standard Time
Message-id:

Why not do like the Germans and create an "operator only"
license?

Because it goes against the Basis and Purpose of the amateur radio
service as defined in Part 97.

OK, Jim...Please explain to me how having a "student operator"
license would violate ANY of the spirit of the Basis and Purpose of
Part 97...I've read it several times over in preparation of responding
to this post, and I can't find a single thing that would violate
either the spirit of the letter of the law...

One theme of the B&P is that hams are skilled operators. Another is that
they are technically knowledgeable.

Uh huh...

Yep.

By reducing the license tests to the point that there would be a class of
license which did not allow unsupervised operation works against those
goals.

WHO SAID "unsupervised"...?!?!..

I did.

What we have now, and have always had in the USA, is the concept that a ham can
operate an amateur station *unsupervised* within the limits of his/her license
privs. And nobody else can.

IOW, either you is a control operator, in charge and responsible, or you ain't.


Your "student operator" idea would create an unnecessary intermediate step. A
"licensed ham" who cannot operate unsupervised. Bad idea, I say.

The "operator only" license idea is the
very epitome of "supervised" licenses,

Which is a bad idea.

and would probably provide that
""skilled operator" a heck of a lot faster than the present "here's your
license now go learn" situation we have now!

I don't see how.

So does a license which disallows homebrewing or requires some sort of Big
Brother protection against the horrific dangers of 32 volt power supplies.

The
purpose of which is to allow a person to operate a radio, but under
the supervison of an experienced operator.

We have that now. A licensed ham is the control operator, and someone
else actually turns the knobs, pushes, the buttons, talks into the
mike, taps on the keyboard.

Sure, you can do it that way, but that's not the point now, is it?

Actually, yes it is.

There's no present need for a "student license" because someone who wants
to
learn amateur radio operating techniques "by doing" can do so without any
license at all - *as long as there is a control op*.

OK, Jim.

Isn't what I wrote true?

We're (supposedly) talking about a new entry license to promote
the service.

Right. Something like the old Novice, which got me and hundreds of thousands
of others started in amateur radio.

And now the Technician Class does that. And......?!?!

And the Tech is not the best we can do. For a whole bunch of reasons.

A "student operator" would not only be cumulative
towards a higher grade license, it would encourge mentorship.

But why is it necessary or even beneficial? If the "student operator" cannot
use the rig unless a mentor is present, why have a student operator license
at all?

Details, Jim...It assigns a trail of responsibility in the training of
the new ops.

Why is that needed?

Student operators could be given a certain amount of independence
even, by allowing approved mentors to "sign off" thier card and
operate under the mentor's call, ie: KN/K4YZ.

That's somewhat different. How is the mentor ham supposed to judge when the
student is ready to solo?

When the student has met the criteria for a "solo", whatever those final
criteria may be later determined to be...Just like a CFI allowing a Student
Pilot to take it around the patch with the right seat empty.

So would this be by mode or band or what?

The precedent is already
federal practice for student pilots. Can't solo until the IP signs
you off!

Sure - but is that what's really best for amateur radio?

I don't know...Do you?

I think I do. I think it's not a good idea.

The FCC get's a dozen petitions a year suggesting new license proposals
that will immeidately and undoubtedly save Amateur Radio from certain
impending failure.

I'm not saying that at all. Just that there's no reason to implement what you
suggest.

Do YOU have THE one failure-proof idea? I Sure don't.

It's not a question of perfect, but of better and worse ideas.

The words "operate an amateur radio station" have an exact definition
under FCC rules. It means to be in charge of the station, even is
someone else does the actual knob turning, etc.

Words written by people can be changed by people, Jim.

Even the Constitution has ammendments.

Point is, right now the term has a precise meaning.

Uh huh.

Yep.

And tomorrow it may have ANOTHER "precise meaning".

Until it is redefined, we should use it as it is defined now.

I am not talking about TODAY'S Amateur Radio, Jim...

Then don't pull a Vipul and use different defintions.

Then after some period of time or
minimum operating hours, the "student" is eligible for an upgrade?

Based on what other requirements?

Take a shot, Jim...This was a general discussion...Not definitive
proposals.

I say it unnecessarily hampers the new ham.

OK...Your opinion noted. 674,999 others to go.

Has anyone here said the student operator idea is a good one?

What if somebody wants to bypass the whole student operator thing and go
straight for a higher-class license? Would that be forbidden?

If I was clairvoyant I'd be buying Lottery tickets.

And in my opinon, no...If someone wants to just dive right in, let'em.

I predict most folks would do just that, rather than hunt down a mentor ham
every time they want to call CQ.

Today, and for more than a quarter century, a person who can go for Extra
"right out of the box". Would you change that?

Only that I would like to see a return to the "time-in-service"
requirement that used to be part of the Extra. The Extra SHOULD represent
evidence of more than have=ing taken a written test. I should say "I
accomplished this and have PROVED it through accomplishments noted".

On that we agree.

Let's rehash the previous "Novice license", as it seemed to
work, update the technical standards, and determine where we would
like new operators to be in terms of skill level, then set up the new
license from there...(We are only using the "old" Novice as a
guideline...NOT the standard to set)

OK, fine. How about this:

3) "Basic" license test is simple 20-25 question exam on regs, procedures,
and safety. Very little technical and RF exposure stuff. Main
objective
is to keep Basics out of trouble. Basics get 100-150 watts on HF/MF
and
25 watts or so on VHF/UHF (power level determined by RF exposure
limits).

Modes are CW, analog voice, PSK31 and many of the other common data

modes
like packet. Basics cannot be VEs, control ops for repeaters, or club
trustees. Basics get most VHF/UHF and about half of HF/MF spectrum.
Basic

is meant as the entry level. Easy to get, lots of privs, yet there's
still
a reason to upgrade.

Why not digital voice?

Once it's documented, sure.

And I wouldn't be so quick to dole out that much sprectum.

I am. Offer a reasonable set of choices. The sunspots come and go, people can
put up different kinds of antennas, etc.

Otherwise, why not?

There ya go.

What's wrong with that concept for an entry-level ham license?

Such a system would essentially require that a prospective ham would
have to know a more-experienced ham in order to operate. Why do we
need such complications?

Would it hurt?

Yes.

No...It wouldn't.

Yes, it would.

Local ARRL Special Service Clubs could sponsor Mentorship training and
pair up volunteers and students.

Right. And if there's nobody nearby, or on the same schedule, or interested in
the same things, Newbie is out of luck.

Students would get immediate exposure from working directly with a
mentor...Not a video tape.

Don't need a new class of license for that.

What if a prospective ham doesn't know any other hams who are willing to be
mentors and who are interested in the same things the student is interested
in?

What if a prospective Ham just woke up from a 25 year coma, doesn't know
about the Internet or search engines. What if...

Now you're being silly.

My point here Jim is that the programs will eventually become self
sustaining with word of thier existence speading.

My point is that they don't need a new class of license to exist.

What if the student and mentor cannot match schedules? What about kids who
don't drive yet? Who checks out the mentors' backgrounds?

If the student and mentor can't match schedules, they change mentors.

Are you volunteering?

And kids can get around.

Depends where you live. You going to send your 9 year old daughter to a
stranger's house 25 miles away?

And local clubs can screen mentors.

None of which requires any changes to the present rules.

nd you're at least tentatively supporting the
idea of yet another license class...

No, I'm not. My discussion proposes three classes, like today.

so if you're going to go that far,
go a bit farther and consider ALL possibilities.

I have. The requirement for a mentor is unnecessary and hinders the process.

OK...If you say so. I say that mentors will put out more responsible
and well trained "new licensees"...

Without any rules changes.

The biggest "drawback" to my idea as I see it is that a lot of
folks who are TALKING about Elmering and mentoring would actually have
to do it, and may even have to take a bit of responsibility for it.
Heaven forbid!

If I'd had to search for a mentor and wait around until both of us had
available free time, just to operate, I'd might never have gotten past that
stage. Instead, I was able to get a Novice license, build a station, and go
on
the air unsupervised. I don't see anything wrong with keeping that concept.

Were you the exception or the rule?

The rule.

Shall we base ALL future expectations on how well you did...???

We should base them on what works. The reality is that reducing requirements
and pushing VHF/UHF hasn't done much.

And who said this would be the ONLY way to enter Amateur Radio?
There's a lot of folks out there who never operated a day with a
Novice, Tech, General or Advanced licenses...

So you would allow the student license to be bypassed? Someone could get an
Extra "right out of the box"?

Or why don't we quit wallowing in all this administrative
quagmire and just "get on with it"...???

What "quagmire"? The FCC amateur radio license system today is far
simpler and more accessible than at any time in the past 35 years.

The "quagmire" of proposals that continue to arrive the FCC,
including the present NCVEC "plan"...

The NCVEC plan isn't new; it got an RM number quite a while ago. We're just
taking another look at it. Still looks as bad as it did before. Worse, even.

That's how the democratic process works.

And it's not the only "license restrcturing" plan to cross thier paths,
Jim.

Yep. Ain't it a great process?

As you and I have both pointed out on numerous
occasisons, Jim, Gradeschoolers are passing the EXTRA, ergo there's
little validation for a new "entry class" license...

That doesn't mean things can't be improved. Do you *really* think the
current Tech is the best we can do for an entry-level license? I
don't.

Why not?

Because:

- The Tech is VHF-UHF centric. It pushes new hams into one type of amateur
radio operation, and isolates them from HF.

It also put's them in the MAINSTREAM of Amateur Radio by virtue of
exposure to 2 meters...The Amateurs Campfire, if you will.

In some places. In others 2 meters isn't much.

Why not set them down with a whole choice of options?

73 de Jim, N2EY

"N2EY" wrote


Your "student operator" idea would create an unnecessary intermediate
step. A
"licensed ham" who cannot operate unsupervised. Bad idea, I say.


Control freaks are big on supervision and rank and being in charge.
People who propose the freedom to take sole responsibility for their own
actions scare the bejeebers out of them.

73, de Hans, K0HB

In article ,
(Len Over 21) writes:

The "dump huck' NCVEC sent their petition to the FCC on
1 March 2003. ["dump huck is Brakob's wording not NCVEC]

The FCC put it in RM-10870 on 4 March 2004.

Brakob commented on it. I commented on Brakob's comment
as well as the petition itself.

Your comments include
errors of fact and
misleading information.

Now, as a retired member of das Amateur Schutz Staffel, you
want to DO IT ALL OVER AGAIN?!?!?!?

Is continued
discussion forbidden?

How many times do you need to rant, rave, slobber, snarl, and
otherwise act like an ashpit over something ALREADY
DISCUSSED AT IN LENGTH?!?!?!?

We ask you the same question.

265 comments on
RM-10870 in the ECFS at the FCC. [266 documents...the
petition and its cover letter plus all the comments]

Is that a problem?

I shouldn't be amazed. This group of amateur inmates seems
to just love living in the past, recreating the past, doing the past
over and over and over again. [eventually they might get it right]

Most of your
postings here
consist of the
same material,
rehashed over
and over.

Including your
service as a
maintenance
person at ADA.

And you, portly old ham, seem to take great delight in TRYING
to get the better of those who've gotten the better of you in
the past. You've had too many oriongasms with your expensive
"I was able to download firmware over the Internet!" transceiver.

We would like
to see examples
of when someone
has "gotten the
better of" K8MN.

Can you provide
some?

You are wasting your time. You are wasting everyone else's time.
You've run out of valid thinking...and time.

Are you the
moderator here?

Or simply a
kibitzer?

In article , (Steve
Robeson K4CAP) writes:

Subject: Another D-H* NCVEC proposal
From: Mike Coslo
Date: 8/11/2004 9:11 AM Central Standard Time
Message-id:

Steve Robeson K4CAP wrote:
Subject: Another D-H* NCVEC proposal
From: PAMNO (N2EY)
Date: 8/11/2004 5:08 AM Central Standard Time
Message-id:

Or why don't we quit wallowing in all this administrative quagmire
and
just "get on with it"...??? As you and I have both pointed out on
numerous
occasisons, Jim, Gradeschoolers are passing the EXTRA, ergo there's little
validation for a new "entry class" license...

And that is perhaps the most telling point, Steve. If a 9 year
old kid
can pass the Extra, there is no reason to make tests easier. I don't
doubt that the child is a bit exceptional, but there are the Technician
and General licenses, which are certainly easier.

And I really wonder what, if anything, one of those 9 year olds could
tell you about radio propagation, modes, etc...

Depends on the kid.

At age 12 I could explain to you about the ionosphere, why the low HF bands are
best at night and the higher ones during the day, the basics of CW, AM, SSB,
FM, FSK, and a whole bunch more. Not as well as I could today but to a level
sufficient to keep me out of trouble.

I suspect that plenty of younger kids could do the same, given the right
learning materials.

But it's not just kids...It's just about anyone anymore.

Depends entirely on the person. There are lots of very knowledgeable hams out
there - newbies and old timers alike.

73 de Jim, N2EY

In article , "KØHB"
writes:

"N2EY" wrote


Your "student operator" idea would create an unnecessary intermediate
step. A
"licensed ham" who cannot operate unsupervised. Bad idea, I say.


Control freaks are big on supervision and rank and being in charge.
People who propose the freedom to take sole responsibility for their own
actions scare the bejeebers out of them.

I take it you agree with me that the "student operator" idea
isn't a good one.

73 de Jim, N2EY

"N2EY" wrote

I take it you agree with me that the "student operator" idea
isn't a good one.

You take it correctly. I think the idea is a credible candidate for the
DAIOTM award.

73, de Hans, K0HB

Subject: Another D-H* NCVEC proposal
From: "KØHB"
Date: 8/14/2004 11:34 AM Central Standard Time
Message-id:


"N2EY" wrote


Your "student operator" idea would create an unnecessary intermediate
step. A
"licensed ham" who cannot operate unsupervised. Bad idea, I say.


Control freaks are big on supervision and rank and being in charge.
People who propose the freedom to take sole responsibility for their own
actions scare the bejeebers out of them.

There's nothing in anythiing I've said, Hans, that makes this THE way for
somoene to get into Amateur Radio...This is but ONE way.

This is not about "control"....It's about a way for TEACHING others to be
licensed, SKILLED Amateur Radio operators.

There are already 675,000 people out there with Amateur Radio licenses who
are "in control" of thier own actions and I hope there will someday be another
675, 000.

Sorry you think differently. Seems to me that those who yell the loudest
about others being "in control" are themselves the ones worried about WHO is
going to be in control.

Kinda like you.

Steve, K4YZ

"licensed ham" who cannot operate unsupervised. Bad idea, I say.



Control freaks are big on supervision and rank and being in charge.
People who propose the freedom to take sole responsibility for their own
actions scare the bejeebers out of them.



How long does it take a new ham to get the basics of operating
down anyway? A few hours of operating? Once he has a rig, antenna
and such set up. When I got my HF privrledes when I got my
"extra lite", I spent a lot of time listening to QSOs to try to figure
out the methods used. Then started responding to CQs and such.
One problem I find is that I can never remember the other guy's
callsign... But if it's a contester I just listen to subsequent
QSOs he has to get his call for the log. I don't compete myself.

Having a supervised only license is more brearucratic hassle than
that met learning how to operate anyway.

"Robert Casey" wrote


Having a supervised only license is more brearucratic hassle than
that met learning how to operate anyway.


Hi Bob,

I feel that the idea of a "Here, Kid, let me hold your hand and show you
how to be a ham" license would send absolutely the wrong message to new
ham 'wannabes'.

Hard-wired into the bedrock DNA of the Amateur Radio service is the
notion of experimentation, inovation, and "let's try and see if this
works". The old Novice license, with it's elementary easy examination,
and it's attitude of "Hey, kid, welcome to Amateur Radio --- now build a
station and let's see what you can do with it" appealed to this trait.
We should lobby like hell for a return to such a license, including the
non-renewable nature of it, rather than some
"store-bought-only-equipment-supervised-operation" license which would,
IMNSHO, carve the very heart and soul out of the attraction of a ham
license to the adventuresome tinker/experimenter mindset that we
desparately need to attract.

Quite frankly, anyone who was attracted to such a structured supervised
license environment doesn't belong in *MY* Amateur Radio service.
(Watch LHA spin up his rotors over that comment!)

73, de Hans, K0HB