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Who Can Have A US License? Sequential Calls?
Subject: Care To Try Again, Steve?
From: PAMNO (N2EY) Date: 11/24/2004 7:32 PM Central Standard Time Message-id: In article , (Steve Robeson K4YZ) writes: Hardly "gobbling", Jim. Either them OR us! According to your own statistics, a large percentage of the most desirable KH2 and KH0 calls are held by noresident aliens. No...YOU said the "most desireable" calls were being gobbled up! That's pretty subjective. Personally, I don't care for the 2 x 1 formatted calls. If it were me, and I were out there, I'd get a 2 x 2 formatted call in either the AH or KH block. You've NOT answered my question Jim. Were the "tests" conducted illegally or inappropriately? I don't know. I've never been to one of those VE sessions. I'm not going to make any claims one way or the other. However, suppose for a moment that there *were* some rules broken by a VE team made up of noncitizens who have never been to US territory. How could FCC do any enforcement actions against them other than revoking their US licenses? Fair enough. However, after 20+ years of VE testing, I have yet to hear of one of those overseas tests as being determined to be a "license for sale" situation rather than an above-board test session. Yet we HAVE had more than a small number of VE test session right here in the US that WERE just that (license for sale). I am sure there have been cases of fines, but in most cases, revocation of of licensure for both "licensee" and "examiner" was the only penalty enforced. Big snippage...Not much to argue with... I'm not the one arguing that there's a probelm, Jim. (Note: IRT Jim;s concerens vis-a-vis foreign nationals holding US licensure) You and Hans can work that one out! That's what we're trying to do. OK...then send a copy of the document to me and I'd be glad to sign on as a co-sponsor. But right now there's not much to argue with since what's going on appears to be legal and there's no other legal precedent for the FCC to say "No, We won't accept license applications from non-resident foreign nationals". Ya *really* wanna stir things up? Imagine if FCC came up with a new callsign system, like this: 1) No more vanity calls 2) All CONUS callsigns begin with W 3) All non-CONUS callsigns begin with K 4) All nonresident callsigns begin with N 5) All special event callsigns begin with A 6) All callsigns indicate the geographic location of the licensee's address. If you move across a call district boundary, you get a new callsign, sequentially issued, no choice. 7) Everybody gets a 2x3 call except Extras, who get the shorter calls, sequentially issued, until they're used up. 8) If your present call matches the new system, you can keep it. Otherwise you get a sequentially issued new call on the next renewal. No choice of the new call. Can you imagine the uproar? Since when has creating an up-roar been un-American...?!?! Actually, Here's MY idea. All new callsigns are assigned a 2x3 callsign, regardless of class, period. All existing calls stay the same unless the licensee requests a change which they pay for. The FCC continues to offer the different "Group" callsigns, but if the licensee wants a call other than what was issued, they pony up the change...No more "sequential" calls other than the 2x3 they were issued. If you move across a call district line, you either apply for a call in that district, or you are obligated to sign "portable", "stroke", "mobile", etc that call district. There are both enforcement and "good operating practice" issues therein. The actual cost of the licensing program would go down since the FCC would no longer be issuing tons of "sequential" callsigns gratis, and fees collected would go up since you couldn't get any other format of call without ponying up the change to do so. Of course it'll never happen, because the admin paperwork alone would be a nightmare. Plus the vanity revenue would go away. The paperwork would go down since they'd no longer be getting 605's at every change of class of license or address change and the fees would go up since they were no longer issuing (save for the initial call) gratis licenses. And the FCC would be getting paid to process what extra paperwork they DID receive. 73 and Happy Turkey Day Steve, K4YZ |
Subject: Who Can Have A US License? Sequential Calls?
From: (Steve Robeson K4YZ) Date: 11/25/2004 5:16 AM Central Standard Time All new callsigns are assigned a 2x3 callsign, regardless of class, period. All existing calls stay the same unless the licensee requests a change which they pay for. Excuse me.... "All new LICENSEES" are assigned a 2x3 callsign....." 73 Steve, K4YZ |
"Steve Robeson K4YZ" wrote in message ... Subject: Who Can Have A US License? Sequential Calls? From: (Steve Robeson K4YZ) Date: 11/25/2004 5:16 AM Central Standard Time All new callsigns are assigned a 2x3 callsign, regardless of class, period. All existing calls stay the same unless the licensee requests a change which they pay for. Excuse me.... "All new LICENSEES" are assigned a 2x3 callsign....." Not quite correct. If a person tests all the way to Extra starting with no license at one sitting, their new license will be a sequentially assigned 2x2 beginning with A. Your statement is correct, however for anyone who starts out their first license as either a Tech or General since there are no more sequentially available 1x3s. Dee D. Flint, N8UZE Dee D. Flint, N8UZE |
Subject: Who Can Have A US License? Sequential Calls?
From: "Dee D. Flint" Date: 11/25/2004 9:25 AM Central Standard Time Message-id: "Steve Robeson K4YZ" wrote in message ... Subject: Who Can Have A US License? Sequential Calls? From: (Steve Robeson K4YZ) Date: 11/25/2004 5:16 AM Central Standard Time All new callsigns are assigned a 2x3 callsign, regardless of class, period. All existing calls stay the same unless the licensee requests a change which they pay for. Excuse me.... "All new LICENSEES" are assigned a 2x3 callsign....." Not quite correct. If a person tests all the way to Extra starting with no license at one sitting, their new license will be a sequentially assigned 2x2 beginning with A. Your statement is correct, however for anyone who starts out their first license as either a Tech or General since there are no more sequentially available 1x3s. You came in in the middle of something Dee. This was my suggestion as to what SHOUL:D be...Not "What is". My suggestion was that they should "can" the "sequential call system" and just issue a 2x3 callsign to all new licensees regardless of class earned. Then if the licensee wants something other than what they got, they can select from the appropriate Callsign Group and pay for it. It would cut down on "gratis" license functions and increase revenues at FCC. 73 es Happy Turkey Day Steve, K4YZ |
"Steve Robeson K4YZ" wrote If you move across a call district line, you either apply for a call in that district, or you are obligated to sign "portable", "stroke", "mobile", etc that call district. Been there, done that, and have the litany of call signs to prove it. In fact, used to be that you needed to NOTIFY the FCC if you were going to operate away from your assigned station location, and periodically renew that notification. Some of just got an additional station callsign if we were going to spend time at another location. Once had a station license with my now-mother-in-laws address because I spent so much time there courting her daughter. Saved having to sign "KG6AQI/W0" and sending those pesky notices to Washington. FCC finally figured out it was unnecessary regulation for their purposes, and discontinued the requirement. There are both enforcement and "good operating practice" issues therein. No there aren't. Each licensee is required to have a current mailing address on file at FCC. One reason, I presume, is in case they need to "enforce". "Good operating practice"? --- that's just a control-freak way of saying "I want to know exactly where you are, regardless of what the FCC wants". 73, de Hans, K0HB |
Subject: Who Can Have A US License? Sequential Calls?
From: PAMNO (N2EY) Date: 11/25/2004 9:29 AM Central Standard Time Message-id: In article , (Steve Robeson K4YZ) writes: Subject: Care To Try Again, Steve? From: PAMNO (N2EY) Date: 11/24/2004 7:32 PM Central Standard Time Message-id: In article , (Steve Robeson K4YZ) writes: No...YOU said the "most desireable" calls were being gobbled up! And they are! Subjective, Jim, subjective! That's pretty subjective. Personally, I don't care for the 2 x 1 formatted calls. If it were me, and I were out there, I'd get a 2 x 2 formatted call in either the AH or KH block. Well, there you have it. Again...it's all subjective. Fair enough. However, after 20+ years of VE testing, I have yet to hear of one of those overseas tests as being determined to be a "license for sale" situation rather than an above-board test session. KH2D, who has *been there* says differently. See his posts on the subject. I read it. He refered to "CBers" with Amateur licenses. He did not specify that ther were licenses obtained from VE exams held at foreign hamfests. Sounded to me like "locals"... And I said that if he didn't get the desired results, he should push it with DoJ. Yet we HAVE had more than a small number of VE test session right here in the US that WERE just that (license for sale). I am sure there have been cases of fines, but in most cases, revocation of of licensure for both "licensee" and "examiner" was the only penalty enforced. And a US citizen cannot use a foreign amateur license in the USA. So the penalty is much tougher on them. That's not the point. You brought up how to enforce regulations on foreign Amateurs who may allow some misconduct in the performance of a VE session. No where did I say ANYthing about using a foreign license in the United States. What I DID say was that in VE session right here at home, conducted by Americans, the "most" penalties usually enforced are license revocation of both the licensee and the "examiner". Are you suggesting any GREATER penalty on a foreigner who commits the same crime? Do you dispute this fact? OK...then send a copy of the document to me and I'd be glad to sign on as a co-sponsor. But right now there's not much to argue with since what's going on appears to be legal and there's no other legal precedent for the FCC to say "No, We won't accept license applications from non-resident foreign nationals". Don't need a precedent. Sure you do. Why would the government revoke ANY privilege unless there was some misconduct or abuse of that privilege? If you force THAT issue, then "they" can adequately argue that there are even far greater abuses right here at home and the whole program goes out the window! Ya *really* wanna stir things up? Imagine if FCC came up with a new callsign system, like this: 1) No more vanity calls 2) All CONUS callsigns begin with W 3) All non-CONUS callsigns begin with K 4) All nonresident callsigns begin with N 5) All special event callsigns begin with A 6) All callsigns indicate the geographic location of the licensee's address. If you move across a call district boundary, you get a new callsign, sequentially issued, no choice. 7) Everybody gets a 2x3 call except Extras, who get the shorter calls, sequentially issued, until they're used up. 8) If your present call matches the new system, you can keep it. Otherwise you get a sequentially issued new call on the next renewal. No choice of the new call. Can you imagine the uproar? Since when has creating an up-roar been un-American...?!?! Actually, Here's MY idea. All new callsigns are assigned a 2x3 callsign, regardless of class, period. All existing calls stay the same unless the licensee requests a change which they pay for. Right away I can hear the yelling. Why? If it's someone "new", they will have never known any other way...and I specifically stated that all those already licensed would not be forced to make any changes. The FCC continues to offer the different "Group" callsigns, but if the licensee wants a call other than what was issued, they pony up the change...No more "sequential" calls other than the 2x3 they were issued. hooboy Why? Do you walk up to Burger King and just take the food? Fee-for-service is the way of the future if we continue to enact tax cuts. If you move across a call district line, you either apply for a call in that district, or you are obligated to sign "portable", "stroke", "mobile", etc that call district. There are both enforcement and "good operating practice" issues therein. So I'd have to start signing "N2EY/3" after more than 20 years of not having to do so from here? That's effectively lengthening the call to a 2x3 And no one looking for a 2-land call would wind up working someone in PA! "dadididadit didididadah" takes about 1 second extra at 20WPM. Big deal. Would I have to pay the fee to get a 3 land call? What did I say? What if all the 3-land 1x2s are gone? Ominus Feces Occurum. There'd be 3-laders living in FL and other places force to give up their "out-of-dictrict" calls too. The actual cost of the licensing program would go down since the FCC would no longer be issuing tons of "sequential" callsigns gratis, and fees collected would go up since you couldn't get any other format of call without ponying up the change to do so. Issuing sequentials costs almost nothing because the computer simply spits them out automatically. Still costs time to attend the computer, input the data, and pay for the actual forms and postage. Of course it'll never happen, because the admin paperwork alone would be a nightmare. Plus the vanity revenue would go away. The paperwork would go down since they'd no longer be getting 605's at every change of class of license or address change whoa! 5 years ago I moved from 19082 to 19087. Still EPA, no callsign change would have been required under any rules. Yet I had to send in a 605. You're the one talking about changes to the rules. How's this for example: "Where a change of address is requested and no other change of callsign would be required due to location within the same call district, attaching a copy of the letter of notification sent to the Commission to the original station records shall be considered adequate. A change of address on the original license document will be reflected upon the next routine renewal or paid license transaction." and the fees would go up since they were no longer issuing (save for the initial call) gratis licenses. And the FCC would be getting paid to process what extra paperwork they DID receive. But do vanity fees go to FCC or to the general fund? Againn, Jim, you're the one suggesting changes... 73 and Happy Turkey Day don't each too much bird No problem...when this one is gone, I am sure Lennie or Brain will flip us another! 73 Steve, K4YZ |
Subject: Who Can Have A US License? Sequential Calls?
From: "KØHB" Date: 11/25/2004 10:29 AM Central Standard Time Message-id: "Steve Robeson K4YZ" wrote There are both enforcement and "good operating practice" issues therein. No there aren't. Sure there are. Each licensee is required to have a current mailing address on file at FCC. One reason, I presume, is in case they need to "enforce". And a primary station location should be required on the license. Submit a mailing address chage to the FAA with just a post office box or "Rural Route" number and see what happens, and they require it for the same reasosn..."enforcement issues" "Good operating practice"? --- that's just a control-freak way of saying "I want to know exactly where you are, regardless of what the FCC wants". It's a way of saying it's annoying to answer a W1 calling CQ cuz you need New England states for WAS only to find out he's in Los Angeles. And stuff your "control freak" issues, Hans. That's just your way of trying to demean someone else's ideas by attaching some misdirection without valid reasoning behind it. Pretty lame, actually, but nothing new. Steve, K4YZ |
"Steve Robeson K4YZ" wrote And a primary station location should be required on the license. That's your opinion. In the FCC's opinion it is not a regulatory necessity, thus they don't require it. Just as they no longer require you to certify you've operated CW at least 10 hours in the past year or you can't renew your license, they no longer require you to be an Extra to operate an amateur radio station in space, they no longer require you to keep a strict record (log) of your stations transmissions (including fruitless CQ's), they no longer require you to advance-notify your District Engineer each month you will be operating portable or mobile and include a "specific as possible" itinery of your mobile operation, and they no longer require your station to have a device to measure your transmitting frequency (independent of the transmitter). These are all archaic regulations, just like "primary station location required", which did not serve any FCC regulatory purpose and they have discarded. If you feel you need to still keep a log, feel free to do so. If you feel you still need your primary station location inscribed on your license, feel free to inscribe it there (there's a nice spot on the document under "Special Conditions" where you could also record the address of your District Engineer so you can notifiy him each month that you'll be operating 'mobile' away from your "primary station location"). When you renew, be sure to include a copy of your log to fulfill the "hours of CW operation in the past year" requirement . Or not, as you wish. It's a way of saying it's annoying to answer a W1 calling CQ cuz you need New England states for WAS only to find out he's in Los Angeles. FCC doesn't regulate WAS, so they don't impose WAS requirements on the call sign structure. Your example is pretty contrived anyhow, because there are several states in "1-land", so unless you need every one of them, a quick check of your callboook would have revealed he's in Sacremento. 73, de Hans, K0HB/4ID |
Subject: Who Can Have A US License? Sequential Calls?
From: "KØHB" Date: 11/25/2004 11:43 AM Central Standard Time Message-id: "Steve Robeson K4YZ" wrote And a primary station location should be required on the license. That's your opinion. And my opinion is worth any less than yours...how...???? In the FCC's opinion it is not a regulatory necessity, thus they don't require it. It's not about regulatory. It's about enforcement. These are all archaic regulations, just like "primary station location required", which did not serve any FCC regulatory purpose and they have discarded. It's not about regulatory. It's about enforcement. You DO know the difference, don't you? It's a way of saying it's annoying to answer a W1 calling CQ cuz you need New England states for WAS only to find out he's in Los Angeles. FCC doesn't regulate WAS, so they don't impose WAS requirements on the call sign structure. Your example is pretty contrived anyhow, because there are several states in "1-land", so unless you need every one of them, a quick check of your callboook would have revealed he's in Sacremento. It's not contrived. There's are numerous letters in QST over the past few years (and I must assume even more who haven't written) lamenting the same thing. I guess it's no problem when you are running a full gallon and have the Internet right there at the operating position, Hans. Not everyone is so blessed with accessories and horsepower. Steve, K4YZ |
(Steve Robeson K4YZ) wrote:
Submit a mailing address chage to the FAA with just a post office box or "Rural Route" number and see what happens, and they require it for the same reasosn..."enforcement issues" Why would the FAA require a street address when the FCC doesn't? Very few pilots fly to their homes (though there's a suburb of Sacramento when many houses have a hangar next to a runway), but many hams operate from home. == Jack Hamilton == In the end, more than they wanted freedom, they wanted comfort and security. And in the end, they lost it all - freedom, comfort and security. Edward Gibbon |
In article , "KØHB"
writes: In fact, used to be that you needed to NOTIFY the FCC if you were going to operate away from your assigned station location, and periodically renew that notification. I remember that the rule was that if you were going to operate away from home for more than 48 hours, you had to send notification to the FCC district offices where you'd be. So a ham on a long car vacation would send a series of cards for each move after the initial 48 hours. Even a long weekend at the shore or mountains required notification. Some of just got an additional station callsign if we were going to spend time at another location. Some hams collected a string of them, for just that reason. PArticularly across district lines. 73 de Jim, N2EY |
Subject: Who Can Have A US License? Sequential Calls?
From: Jack Hamilton Date: 11/25/2004 12:08 PM Central Standard Time Message-id: (Steve Robeson K4YZ) wrote: Submit a mailing address chage to the FAA with just a post office box or "Rural Route" number and see what happens, and they require it for the same reasosn..."enforcement issues" Why would the FAA require a street address when the FCC doesn't? Very few pilots fly to their homes (though there's a suburb of Sacramento when many houses have a hangar next to a runway), but many hams operate from home In know, but they do. In 96 I submitted a change-of-address that included my PO box and RR...I got an UGLY letter that stated I was required to provide SPECIFIC directions to my residence from recognizable landmarks, or my certificate was "subject to suspension pending provision of said information". 73 Steve, K4YZ |
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"Steve Robeson K4YZ" wrote
In the FCC's opinion it is not a regulatory necessity, thus they don't require it. It's not about regulatory. It's about enforcement. In the FCC's opinion it is not an enforcement issue, thus they don't require it. There's are numerous letters in QST over the past few years (and I must assume even more who haven't written) lamenting the same thing. The FCC sees no regulatory reason (nor enforcement reason, nor "good operating practice" reason) to change your callsign when you move from one district to another, nor are they required to consult "numerous letters in QST" to determine what is "good operating practice".. They do, however, often take into account the wishes of the citizens who petition them for rule changes. One of those petitions asked that they allow amateurs to retain their calls when moving because many hams had become 'connected' to their call signs, almost as a 'name', and did not wish to surrender the call when moving. Finding no regulatory, enforcement, nor "good operating practice" reason that a ham shouldn't keep their callsign, they ruled in favor of the petitioner. I guess it's no problem when you are running a full gallon and have the Internet right there at the operating position, Hans. Whether I'm running a "full gallon" or 100mW (which is closer to what I normally run) doesn't make it any easier to devine the source of a CQ. And what does the internet have to do with it? 73, de Hans, K0HB/4ID |
"Steve Robeson K4YZ" wrote Subject: Who Can Have A US License? Sequential Calls? From: "KØHB" Date: 11/25/2004 11:43 AM Central Standard Time Message-id: "Steve Robeson K4YZ" wrote And a primary station location should be required on the license. That's your opinion. And my opinion is worth any less than yours...how...???? Did I say it was worth less? No, of course I didn't say it, and of course you knew I didn't say it, but nice try at misdirection anyhow. What I did say was "In the FCC's opinion......". 73, de Hans, K0HB/4ID |
"Steve Robeson K4YZ" wrote Submit a mailing address chage to the FAA with just a post office box or "Rural Route" number and see what happens, and they require it for the same reasosn..."enforcement issues" FAA is not concerned with my amateur station location unless I move close to an airport and build a tower, so I have no occasion to submit a mailing address change to them. I'll keep it in mind, however, if I move and my location/tower height require permits from them. Until then, I really couldn't care less about what FAA requires, since they lack jurisdiction in amateur radio location matters. 73, de Hans, K0HB/4ID |
"N2EY" wrote How about we make it even easier: Carve up the callsign blocks into state-specific ones so you could tell which exact state someone was in just from the call. For example, in the 3rd call district, all calls with an M, R or Y in the suffix could be restricted to Maryland only, all calls with D, E or L could be restricted to Delaware, and all the rest would go to PA. (Adjust as needed for population variation) So you could just look at a callsign and know which state the ham was in. Aw, gee, Jim, that isn't nearly complicated enough. You gotta get it down to the country level at least, preferably the city or township level. The control freaks would like something like the old convoluted USSR system. If you knew a guys call sign, the system was almost detailed enough to use for targeting ICBMs. See below. Riley Hollingsworth could just dial in your call sign, and a boomer sub off the coast of New Jersey would target a tomahawk with the violation notice attached to the nosecone. I can just see it now ---- "Hey, K4CAP, your stations RF Exposure Evaluation appears to need updating. Please report when you have completed the required survey." 73, de Hans, K0HB/4ID TERRITORIES, PREFIXES AND SUFFIXES OF THE FORMER USSR. (Updated list of prefixes and suffixes of former USSR radio amateur stations). Compiled by Oleg Chernozyomov, UA4CIF, 31 March, 1995 Text corrections and additional information by RW3AH, Dec. 24th 1995. ---------------------------------------------------------------------- Source: Literature - "Amateur Stations of the former Soviet Commonwealth" by RA6YR, 1995. Two-letter combinations after oblasts names in Russia and Ukraine are adopted for ham tests and other purposes. Russia R, RA, RK, RN, RU, RV, RW, RX, RZ, UA; 1-4, 6, 8-0; Armenia EK UG) Moldavia ER (ex-UO) Byelorussia EU-EW; EV5 (ex-UC) Kirghizia EX (ex-UM) Tadjikistan EY (ex-UJ) Turkmenia EZ (ex-UH) Uzbekistan UK (ex-UI) Kazakhstan UN; UP (ex-UL) Ukraine UR-UY; EM-EO; UV, UW, UZ, U5 (ex-UB) Azerbaijan 4J, 4K (ex-UD) Georgia 4L (ex-UF) Russia R, RA, RK, RN, RU, RV, RW, RX, RZ, UA; 1-4, 6, 8-0; ================================================== ========== * The second letter in a suffix: W, X, Y, Z - Club stations * U1-4, 6, 9-0 World War II veterans * U1MIR - U9MIR cosmonauts * R1ANA - R1ANZ Antarctica * R1FJA - R1FJZ Franz Josef Land (Arctic) * R1MVA - R1MVZ Maly Visotski Island (ex-4J1.) * R3ARES - Russian amateur radio emergency service H.Q (RARES), Moscow. * RE0RAS - RARES, Regional service. Central Siberia, Krasnoyarsk. * R3ARC - H.Q. Rescue service of Russian Red Cross. Moscow. * R3RRC - "Russian Robinson Club" H.Q. Lipetsk city (R3G area). * R3SRR - Russian Amateur Radio Union H.Q. Moscow. * R3VHF - VHF Committee of Russian Amateur Radio Union. Oblast Identification by Combination of a Figure and 1st letter in a suffix. __________________________________________________ ________________________*** Russia, Region 1 *** Central cityNorth-West Russia of a territoryA, B, D, F, G, H, I, J, L, M - St.Petersburg (SP)C Leningradskaya oblast (LO) St.PetersburgN Republicarelia (KL) (Prefix RN1) PetrozavodskO Arkhangelskaya oblast ArchangelskP Nenetsky Autonomous Okrug (NO) Nar'yan-MarQ, R, S Vologodskaya oblast (VO) VologdaT, U Novgorodskaya oblast (NV) NovgorodW, X Pskovskaya oblast (PS) PskovY, Z Murmanskaya oblast (MU) Murmansk*** Russia, Region 2 ***BalticsF Kaliningradskaya oblast (KA) Kaliningrad*** Russia, Region 3 ***Central RussiaA, B, C, F, H Moscow ciA)D Moskovskaya oblast (MO) Moscow area(Pushkino)E Orlovskaya oblast (OR) OryolG Lipetskaya oblast (LP) LipetskI, J Tverskaya oblast (TV) Tver'L Smolenskaya oblast (SM) SmolenskM Yaroslavskaya oblast (JA) YaroslavlN, O Kostromskaya oblast (KS) KostromaP Tul'skaya oblast (TL) TulaQ Voronezhskaya oblast (VH) VoronezhR Tambovskaya oblast (TB) TambovS Ryazanskaya oblast (RA) Ryazan'T Nizhegorodskaya oblast (NN) Nizhny NovgorodU Ivanovskaya oblast (IV) IvanovoV Vladimirskaya oblast (VL) VladimirW Kurskaya oblast (KU) KurskX Kaluzhskaya oblast (KG) KalugaY Bryanskaya oblast (BR) BryanskZ Belgorodskaya oblast (BO) Belgorod*** Russia, Region 4 ***Volga river area.A, B Volgogradskaya oblast (VG) VolgogradC, D Saratovskaya oblast (SA) SaratovF Penzenskaya oblast (PE) PenzaH, I Samarskaya oblast (SR) SamaraL, M Ul'anovskaya oblast (UL) Ul'anovskN, O Kirovskaya oblast (KI) Kirov (Vyatka)P, Q, R Republic of Ta (Tatarstan) (TA) Kazan'S, T Republic of Mari (Mari-El) (MR) Joshkar-OlaU Republic of Mordovia (MD) SaranskW Republic of Udmurtia (UD) IzhevskY, Z Republic of Chuvashia (CU) Cheboksary*** Russia, Region 6 ***Northern CaucususA, B, C, D Krasnodarsky Kray (KR) KrasnodarE Republic of Karachaevo-Cherkessia (KC) CherkesskF, G, H Stavropolsky Kray (ST) StavropolI Republic of Kalmykia (KM) ElistaJ Republic of Northern Ossetia (SO) VladikavkazL, M, N, O Rostovskaya oblast (RO) Rostov-on-DonP, Q, R Republics of Ingushetia and Chechnya (CN) Grozny,Nazran'U, V Astrakhanskaya oblast (AO) Astrakhan'W Republic of Daghestan (DA) MakhachkalaX Republuc of Kabardino-Balkaria (KB) Nal'chikY Republic of Adygeya (AD) Maykop*** Russia, Region 8 ***Far East (Buryatia)T Ust' Ordynsky Buryatsky Autonomous Okrug (UO) Ust' OrdynskyV Aginsky Buryatsky Autonomous Okrug (AB) Aginskoe*** Russia, Region 9 ***Ural mounts. area and Central, Western Siberia.A, B Chelyabinskaya oblast (CB) ChelyabinskC, D, E Sverdlovskaya oblast (SV) YekaterinburgF Permskaya oblast (PM) Perm'G Komi-Permyatsky Autonomous Okrug (KP) KudymkarH, I Tomskaya oblast (TO) TomskJ Khanty-Mansyisky Autonomous Okrug (HM) Khanty-MansyiskK Yamalo-Nenetsky Autonomous Okrug (JN) SalekhardL Tyumenskaya oblast (TN) Tyumen'M, N Omskaya oblast (OM) OmskO, P Novosibirskaya oblast (NS) NovosibirskQ, R Kurganskaya oblast (KN) KurganS, T Orenburgskaya oblast (OB) OrenburgU, V Kemerovskaya oblast (KE) KemerovoW Republic of Bashkiria (Bashkortostan)(BA) UfaX Republic of Komi (KO) SyktyvkarY Altaysky Kray - (AL) BarnaulZ Republic of Altay (GA) Gorno-Altaysk*** Russia, Region 0 ***Eastern Siberia and Far East.A Krasnoyarsky Kray (KK) KrasnoyarskB Taymyrsky Autonomous Okrug (TM) DudinkaC Khabarovsky Kray (HK) KhabarovskD Yevreyskaya (Jewish) Autonomous Oblast (EA) BirobidzhanE, F, G Sakhalinskaya Oblast (SL)Yuzhno-SakhalinskH Evenkiysky Autonomous Okrug (EW) TuraI Magadanskaya oblast (MG) MagadanJ Amurskaya oblast (AM) BlagoveshenskK Chukotsky Autonomous Okrug (CK) Anadyr'L, M, N Primorsky Kray (PK) VladivostokO, P Republic of Buryatia (BU) Ulan-UdeQ, R Republic of Yakutia (Saha) (YA) YakutskS, T Irkutskaya oblast (IR) IrkutskU, V Chitinskaya oblast (CT) ChitaW Republic of Khakassia (HA) AbakanX Koryaksky Autonomous Okrug (KJ) PalanaY Republic of Tuva (TU) KyzylZ Kamchatskaya oblast (KT)Petropavlovsk-Kamchatsky __________________________________________________ ________________________ Armenia EK Yerevan city. ======= -------------------------------------------------------------------------- Moldavia (Moldova) ER ======================6, 7, 8, 9 - In reserve, special event licenses.0 - For foreign amateurs.Suffixes: KAA - KZZ - Club station AAA - ZZZ - 4 - Category AA - ZZ - 1, 2, 3 - CategoryER1 Kishinev, Dubossary, Orgeev, KhyncheshtyER2 Tiraspol, Bendery, KaushanyER3 Beltsy, Rybnitsa, FloreshtyER4 Yedintsy, Drokia, SorokiER5 Kagul, Komrat, Leovo, Chadyr-Lunga __________________________________________________ ________________________ Byelorussia EU. EW. EV. ========================EU - EW1 MinskEU - EW2 Minskaya oblast Minsk (Borisov)EU - EW3 Brestskaya oblast BrestEU - EW4 Grodnenskaya oblast GrodnoEU - EW6 Vitebskaya oblast VitebskEU - EW7 Mogilyovskaya oblast MogilyovEU - EW8 Gomel'skaya oblast GomelEU, EW9 In reserveEU, EW0 For foreign amateursEV5 For special event licensesSuffixes YAA - YZZ female operatorSuffixes, beginning with W, X, Z Club stationEV1, 2, 3, 4, 6, 7, 8, Suffixes A - Z World War II veterans, special memorial event stations. __________________________________________________ ________________________ Kirghizia EX. ==============EX2, 8, 0 one-letter suffixes Extra licenseEX6, 7, 8 two-letter suffixes I CategoryEX8, three-letter suffixes - 2, 3 CategoryEX9, second letter in a suffix - W, X, Y, Z - Club stationOblast identification by the 1st letter in a suffix (excluding Extrastations)M Chuyskaya oblast, Bishkek BishkekN Oshskaya oblast OshP Narynskaya oblast NarynQ Issyk-kul'skaya oblast PrzhevalskT Talasskaya oblast TalasV Dzhalal-Abadskaya oblast Dzhalal-Abad __________________________________________________ ________________________ Tadjikistan EY. =================EY1, 2, 3, 0 - In reserveSuffixes ZA - ZZ, ZAA - ZZZ - Club stationEY4 Gorno-Badakhshanskaya Autonomous Oblast KhorogEY5 Khatlonskaya oblast (region of Kulyab)EY6 Khatlonskaya oblast (region of Kurgan-Tyube)EY7 Leninabadskaya oblast KhodzhentEY8 DushanbeEY9 Nurek and Republican subordinate regions __________________________________________________ ________________________ Turkmenia EZ. =============EZ3 Akhalsky veloyatEZ4 Balkansky veloyatEZ5 Maryisky veloyatEZ6 Dashkhovuzsky veloyatEZ7 Lebapsky veloyatEZ8 AshgabadOne-letter suffixes Club stationOne-letter suffixes W,X,X,Z For special event licenses __________________________________________________ ________________________Uzbekistan UK================UK7, 8, 9UJ, UL, UM - In reserveSuffixes WA - ZZ Club stationU8 World War II veteransOblast identification by the 1st letter of a suffix:A TashkentB Tashkentskaya oblast TashkentC Kashkardar'inskaya oblast KarshiD Syrdar'inskaya oblast GulistanF Andizhanskaya oblast AndizhanG Ferganskaya oblast FerganaI Samarkandskaya oblast SamarkandL Bukharskaya oblast BukharaO Namanganskaya oblast NamanganQ Navoiyskaya oblast NavoiT Surkhandar'inskaya oblast TermezU Khorezmskaya oblast UrgenchV Dzhizakskaya oblast DzhizakZ Karakalpakia Nukus __________________________________________________ ________________________ Kazakhstan UN =============UN ordinary licensesUP For special event licensesSuffixes XA - XZ Emergency servicesUN1, UO, UQ In reserveOne-letter suffixes: Extra licenseTwo-letter suffixes: I CategoryThree-letter suffixes: 2, 3, 4 categoryOblast identification by the 1st letter of a suffix:A Mangistauskaya oblast MangistauB Akmolinskaya oblast AkmolinskC Severo-Kazakhstanskaya oblast PetropavlovskD Semipalatinskaya oblast SemipalatinskE Kokchetavskaya (Kokshetau) oblast KokchetavF Pavlodarskaya oblast PavlodarG Alma-Ata (Almaty)I Aktyubinskaya oblast AktyubinskJ Vostochno-Kazakhstanskaya oblast Ust' KamenogorskK Kzyl-Ordinskaya oblast Kzyl OrdaL Kustanayskaya oblast KustanayM Ural'skaya oblast UralskN Chimkentskaya oblast Chimkent(Shymkent)O Atyrauskaya oblast AtyrauP Karagandinskaya oblast KaragandaQ Alma-Atinskaya oblast Alma-Ata(Alamaty)R Dzhezkazganskaya oblast Dzhezkazgan (Zhezkazgan)S Leninsk (Baikonur)T Dzhambulskaya oblast Dzhambul(Zhambyl)V Taldy-Kurganskaya oblast Taldy-Kurgan (Taldykorgan)Y rgayskaya oblast Arkalyk __________________________________________________ ________________________ Ukraine UR-UY. ===============UR - UY ordinary licensesEM - EO For special event licensesUV, UW, UZ In reserveU5 World War II veteransTwo-letter suffixes: I CategoryThree-letter suffixes: 2, 3, 4 CategiriesSecond letter of a suffix: W, X, Y, Z - Club stationsUU1-8J, UU0J Crimea (KR) SimferopolUU9J Sevastopol (SL)Oblast identification by the 1st letter of a suffix:A Sumskaya oblast (SU) SumyB Ternopolskaya oblast (TE) TernopolC Cherkasskaya oblast (CH) CherkassyD Zakarpatskaya oblast (ZA) UzhgorodE Dnepropetrovskaya oblast (DN) DnepropetrovskF Odesskaya oblast (OD) OdessaG Khersonskaya oblast (HE) KhersonH Poltavskaya oblast (PO) PoltavaI Donetskaya oblast (DO) DonetskK Rovenskaya oblast (RI) Rovno (Rivno)L Kharkovskaya oblast (HA) KharkovM Luganskaya oblast (LU) LuganskN Vinnitskaya oblast (VI) VinnitsaP Volynskaya oblast (VO) LutskQ Zaporozhskaya oblast (ZP) ZaporozhieR Chernigovskaya oblast (CR) ChernigovS Ivano-Frankovskaya oblast (IF) Ivano-Frankovsk (Ivano-Frankivsk)T Khmelnitskaya oblast (HM) KhmelnitskyU Kievskaya oblast (KO) KievU Kiev (KV)V Kirovogradskaya oblast (KI) KirovogradW Lvovskaya oblast (LV) Lvov (Lviv)X Zhitomirskaya oblast (ZH) ZhitomirY Chernovitskaya oblast (CN) ChernovtsyZ Nikolaevskaya oblast (NI) Nikolaev __________________________________________________ ________________________ Azerbaijan 4J. 4K. ====================4J, 4K1, 0 For special event licenses and foreign amateurs.Suffixes AWA - ZZZ Club station AAA - ZVZ 2, 3 Category AA - ZZ 1 Category A - Z Extra licenses4J2, 4K2 Nakhichevan'4J4-9, 4K4-9 Baku city4J3, 4K3 Azerbaijan territories excluding Baku and Nakhichevan' __________________________________________________ ________________________ Georgia 4L. ==============4L1, 4L4, 4L6, 4L7, 4L0 ordinary licenses2, 3, 5, 8, 9 In reserveOne-letter suffiz Extra licensesTerritory Msg #36 From: RW3AH Date: 27-Dec 0752Z Subj: Ex-USSRCALLSIGN SYSTEM TERRITORIES, PREFIXES AND SUFFIXES OF THE FORMER USSR. ================================================== ====(Updated list of prefixes and suffixes of former USSR radioamateur stations). Compiled by Oleg Chernozyomov, UA4CIF, 31 March, 1995 Text corrections and additional information by RW3AH, Dec. 24th 1995. ---------------------------------------------------------------------- Source: Literature - "Amateur Stations of the former SovietCommonwealth" by RA6YR, 1995. Two-letter combinations after oblasts names in Russia and Ukraine are adopted for ham tests and other purposes. Russia R, RA, RK, RN, RU, RV, RW, RX, RZ, UA; 1-4, 6, 8-0; Armenia EK UG) Moldavia ER (ex-UO) Byelorussia EU-EW; EV5 (ex-UC) Kirghizia EX (ex-UM) Tadjikistan EY (ex-UJ) Turkmenia EZ (ex-UH) Uzbekistan UK (ex-UI) Kazakhstan UN; UP (ex-UL) Ukraine UR-UY; EM-EO; UV, UW, UZ, U5 (ex-UB) Azerbaijan 4J, 4K (ex-UD) Georgia 4L (ex-UF) Russia R, RA, RK, RN, RU, RV, RW, RX, RZ, UA; 1-4, 6, 8-0; ================================================== ========== * The second letter in a suffix: W, X, Y, Z - Club stations * U1-4, 6, 9-0 World War II veterans * U1MIR - U9MIR cosmonauts * R1ANA - R1ANZ Antarctica * R1FJA - R1FJZ Franz Josef Land (Arctic) * R1MVA - R1MVZ Maly Visotski Island (ex-4J1.) * R3ARES - Russian amateur radio emergency service H.Q (RARES), Moscow. * RE0RAS - RARES, Regional service. Central Siberia, Krasnoyarsk. * R3ARC - H.Q. Rescue service of Russian Red Cross. Moscow. * R3RRC - "Russian Robinson Club" H.Q. Lipetsk city (R3G area). * R3SRR - Russian Amateur Radio Union H.Q. Moscow. * R3VHF - VHF Committee of Russian Amateur Radio Union. Oblast Identification by Combination of a Figure and 1st letter in a suffix. __________________________________________________ ________________________*** Russia, Region 1 *** Central cityNorth-West Russia of a territoryA, B, D, F, G, H, I, J, L, M - St.Petersburg (SP)C Leningradskaya oblast (LO) St.PetersburgN Republicarelia (KL) (Prefix RN1) PetrozavodskO Arkhangelskaya oblast ArchangelskP Nenetsky Autonomous Okrug (NO) Nar'yan-MarQ, R, S Vologodskaya oblast (VO) VologdaT, U Novgorodskaya oblast (NV) NovgorodW, X Pskovskaya oblast (PS) PskovY, Z Murmanskaya oblast (MU) Murmansk*** Russia, Region 2 ***BalticsF Kaliningradskaya oblast (KA) Kaliningrad*** Russia, Region 3 ***Central RussiaA, B, C, F, H Moscow ciA)D Moskovskaya oblast (MO) Moscow area(Pushkino)E Orlovskaya oblast (OR) OryolG Lipetskaya oblast (LP) LipetskI, J Tverskaya oblast (TV) Tver'L Smolenskaya oblast (SM) SmolenskM Yaroslavskaya oblast (JA) YaroslavlN, O Kostromskaya oblast (KS) KostromaP Tul'skaya oblast (TL) TulaQ Voronezhskaya oblast (VH) VoronezhR Tambovskaya oblast (TB) TambovS Ryazanskaya oblast (RA) Ryazan'T Nizhegorodskaya oblast (NN) Nizhny NovgorodU Ivanovskaya oblast (IV) IvanovoV Vladimirskaya oblast (VL) VladimirW Kurskaya oblast (KU) KurskX Kaluzhskaya oblast (KG) KalugaY Bryanskaya oblast (BR) BryanskZ Belgorodskaya oblast (BO) Belgorod*** Russia, Region 4 ***Volga river area.A, B Volgogradskaya oblast (VG) VolgogradC, D Saratovskaya oblast (SA) SaratovF Penzenskaya oblast (PE) PenzaH, I Samarskaya oblast (SR) SamaraL, M Ul'anovskaya oblast (UL) Ul'anovskN, O Kirovskaya oblast (KI) Kirov (Vyatka)P, Q, R Republic of Ta (Tatarstan) (TA) Kazan'S, T Republic of Mari (Mari-El) (MR) Joshkar-OlaU Republic of Mordovia (MD) SaranskW Republic of Udmurtia (UD) IzhevskY, Z Republic of Chuvashia (CU) Cheboksary*** Russia, Region 6 ***Northern CaucususA, B, C, D Krasnodarsky Kray (KR) KrasnodarE Republic of Karachaevo-Cherkessia (KC) CherkesskF, G, H Stavropolsky Kray (ST) StavropolI Republic of Kalmykia (KM) ElistaJ Republic of Northern Ossetia (SO) VladikavkazL, M, N, O Rostovskaya oblast (RO) Rostov-on-DonP, Q, R Republics of Ingushetia and Chechnya (CN) Grozny,Nazran'U, V Astrakhanskaya oblast (AO) Astrakhan'W Republic of Daghestan (DA) MakhachkalaX Republuc of Kabardino-Balkaria (KB) Nal'chikY Republic of Adygeya (AD) Maykop*** Russia, Region 8 ***Far East (Buryatia)T Ust' Ordynsky Buryatsky Autonomous Okrug (UO) Ust' OrdynskyV Aginsky Buryatsky Autonomous Okrug (AB) Aginskoe*** Russia, Region 9 ***Ural mounts. area and Central, Western Siberia.A, B Chelyabinskaya oblast (CB) ChelyabinskC, D, E Sverdlovskaya oblast (SV) YekaterinburgF Permskaya oblast (PM) Perm'G Komi-Permyatsky Autonomous Okrug (KP) KudymkarH, I Tomskaya oblast (TO) TomskJ Khanty-Mansyisky Autonomous Okrug (HM) Khanty-MansyiskK Yamalo-Nenetsky Autonomous Okrug (JN) SalekhardL Tyumenskaya oblast (TN) Tyumen'M, N Omskaya oblast (OM) OmskO, P Novosibirskaya oblast (NS) NovosibirskQ, R Kurganskaya oblast (KN) KurganS, T Orenburgskaya oblast (OB) OrenburgU, V Kemerovskaya oblast (KE) KemerovoW Republic of Bashkiria (Bashkortostan)(BA) UfaX Republic of Komi (KO) SyktyvkarY Altaysky Kray - (AL) BarnaulZ Republic of Altay (GA) Gorno-Altaysk*** Russia, Region 0 ***Eastern Siberia and Far East.A Krasnoyarsky Kray (KK) KrasnoyarskB Taymyrsky Autonomous Okrug (TM) DudinkaC Khabarovsky Kray (HK) KhabarovskD Yevreyskaya (Jewish) Autonomous Oblast (EA) BirobidzhanE, F, G Sakhalinskaya Oblast (SL)Yuzhno-SakhalinskH Evenkiysky Autonomous Okrug (EW) TuraI Magadanskaya oblast (MG) MagadanJ Amurskaya oblast (AM) BlagoveshenskK Chukotsky Autonomous Okrug (CK) Anadyr'L, M, N Primorsky Kray (PK) VladivostokO, P Republic of Buryatia (BU) Ulan-UdeQ, R Republic of Yakutia (Saha) (YA) YakutskS, T Irkutskaya oblast (IR) IrkutskU, V Chitinskaya oblast (CT) ChitaW Republic of Khakassia (HA) AbakanX Koryaksky Autonomous Okrug (KJ) PalanaY Republic of Tuva (TU) KyzylZ Kamchatskaya oblast (KT)Petropavlovsk-Kamchatsky __________________________________________________ ________________________ Armenia EK Yerevan city. ======= -------------------------------------------------------------------------- Moldavia (Moldova) ER ======================6, 7, 8, 9 - In reserve, special event licenses.0 - For foreign amateurs.Suffixes: KAA - KZZ - Club station AAA - ZZZ - 4 - Category AA - ZZ - 1, 2, 3 - CategoryER1 Kishinev, Dubossary, Orgeev, KhyncheshtyER2 Tiraspol, Bendery, KaushanyER3 Beltsy, Rybnitsa, FloreshtyER4 Yedintsy, Drokia, SorokiER5 Kagul, Komrat, Leovo, Chadyr-Lunga __________________________________________________ ________________________ Byelorussia EU. EW. EV. ========================EU - EW1 MinskEU - EW2 Minskaya oblast Minsk (Borisov)EU - EW3 Brestskaya oblast BrestEU - EW4 Grodnenskaya oblast GrodnoEU - EW6 Vitebskaya oblast VitebskEU - EW7 Mogilyovskaya oblast MogilyovEU - EW8 Gomel'skaya oblast GomelEU, EW9 In reserveEU, EW0 For foreign amateursEV5 For special event licensesSuffixes YAA - YZZ female operatorSuffixes, beginning with W, X, Z Club stationEV1, 2, 3, 4, 6, 7, 8, Suffixes A - Z World War II veterans, special memorial event stations. __________________________________________________ ________________________ Kirghizia EX. ==============EX2, 8, 0 one-letter suffixes Extra licenseEX6, 7, 8 two-letter suffixes I CategoryEX8, three-letter suffixes - 2, 3 CategoryEX9, second letter in a suffix - W, X, Y, Z - Club stationOblast identification by the 1st letter in a suffix (excluding Extrastations)M Chuyskaya oblast, Bishkek BishkekN Oshskaya oblast OshP Narynskaya oblast NarynQ Issyk-kul'skaya oblast PrzhevalskT Talasskaya oblast TalasV Dzhalal-Abadskaya oblast Dzhalal-Abad __________________________________________________ ________________________ Tadjikistan EY. =================EY1, 2, 3, 0 - In reserveSuffixes ZA - ZZ, ZAA - ZZZ - Club stationEY4 Gorno-Badakhshanskaya Autonomous Oblast KhorogEY5 Khatlonskaya oblast (region of Kulyab)EY6 Khatlonskaya oblast (region of Kurgan-Tyube)EY7 Leninabadskaya oblast KhodzhentEY8 DushanbeEY9 Nurek and Republican subordinate regions __________________________________________________ ________________________ Turkmenia EZ. =============EZ3 Akhalsky veloyatEZ4 Balkansky veloyatEZ5 Maryisky veloyatEZ6 Dashkhovuzsky veloyatEZ7 Lebapsky veloyatEZ8 AshgabadOne-letter suffixes Club stationOne-letter suffixes W,X,X,Z For special event licenses __________________________________________________ ________________________Uzbekistan UK================UK7, 8, 9UJ, UL, UM - In reserveSuffixes WA - ZZ Club stationU8 World War II veteransOblast identification by the 1st letter of a suffix:A TashkentB Tashkentskaya oblast TashkentC Kashkardar'inskaya oblast KarshiD Syrdar'inskaya oblast GulistanF Andizhanskaya oblast AndizhanG Ferganskaya oblast FerganaI Samarkandskaya oblast SamarkandL Bukharskaya oblast BukharaO Namanganskaya oblast NamanganQ Navoiyskaya oblast NavoiT Surkhandar'inskaya oblast TermezU Khorezmskaya oblast UrgenchV Dzhizakskaya oblast DzhizakZ Karakalpakia Nukus __________________________________________________ ________________________ Kazakhstan UN =============UN ordinary licensesUP For special event licensesSuffixes XA - XZ Emergency servicesUN1, UO, UQ In reserveOne-letter suffixes: Extra licenseTwo-letter suffixes: I CategoryThree-letter suffixes: 2, 3, 4 categoryOblast identification by the 1st letter of a suffix:A Mangistauskaya oblast MangistauB Akmolinskaya oblast AkmolinskC Severo-Kazakhstanskaya oblast PetropavlovskD Semipalatinskaya oblast SemipalatinskE Kokchetavskaya (Kokshetau) oblast KokchetavF Pavlodarskaya oblast PavlodarG Alma-Ata (Almaty)I Aktyubinskaya oblast AktyubinskJ Vostochno-Kazakhstanskaya oblast Ust' KamenogorskK Kzyl-Ordinskaya oblast Kzyl OrdaL Kustanayskaya oblast KustanayM Ural'skaya oblast UralskN Chimkentskaya oblast Chimkent(Shymkent)O Atyrauskaya oblast AtyrauP Karagandinskaya oblast KaragandaQ Alma-Atinskaya oblast Alma-Ata(Alamaty)R Dzhezkazganskaya oblast Dzhezkazgan (Zhezkazgan)S Leninsk (Baikonur)T Dzhambulskaya oblast Dzhambul(Zhambyl)V Taldy-Kurganskaya oblast Taldy-Kurgan (Taldykorgan)Y rgayskaya oblast Arkalyk __________________________________________________ ________________________ Ukraine UR-UY. ===============UR - UY ordinary licensesEM - EO For special event licensesUV, UW, UZ In reserveU5 World War II veteransTwo-letter suffixes: I CategoryThree-letter suffixes: 2, 3, 4 CategiriesSecond letter of a suffix: W, X, Y, Z - Club stationsUU1-8J, UU0J Crimea (KR) SimferopolUU9J Sevastopol (SL)Oblast identification by the 1st letter of a suffix:A Sumskaya oblast (SU) SumyB Ternopolskaya oblast (TE) TernopolC Cherkasskaya oblast (CH) CherkassyD Zakarpatskaya oblast (ZA) UzhgorodE Dnepropetrovskaya oblast (DN) DnepropetrovskF Odesskaya oblast (OD) OdessaG Khersonskaya oblast (HE) KhersonH Poltavskaya oblast (PO) PoltavaI Donetskaya oblast (DO) DonetskK Rovenskaya oblast (RI) Rovno (Rivno)L Kharkovskaya oblast (HA) KharkovM Luganskaya oblast (LU) LuganskN Vinnitskaya oblast (VI) VinnitsaP Volynskaya oblast (VO) LutskQ Zaporozhskaya oblast (ZP) ZaporozhieR Chernigovskaya oblast (CR) ChernigovS Ivano-Frankovskaya oblast (IF) Ivano-Frankovsk (Ivano-Frankivsk)T Khmelnitskaya oblast (HM) KhmelnitskyU Kievskaya oblast (KO) KievU Kiev (KV)V Kirovogradskaya oblast (KI) KirovogradW Lvovskaya oblast (LV) Lvov (Lviv)X Zhitomirskaya oblast (ZH) ZhitomirY Chernovitskaya oblast (CN) ChernovtsyZ Nikolaevskaya oblast (NI) Nikolaev __________________________________________________ ________________________ Azerbaijan 4J. 4K. ====================4J, 4K1, 0 For special event licenses and foreign amateurs.Suffixes AWA - ZZZ Club station AAA - ZVZ 2, 3 Category AA - ZZ 1 Category A - Z Extra licenses4J2, 4K2 Nakhichevan'4J4-9, 4K4-9 Baku city4J3, 4K3 Azerbaijan territories excluding Baku and Nakhichevan' __________________________________________________ ________________________ Georgia 4L. ==============4L1, 4L4, 4L6, 4L7, 4L0 ordinary licenses2, 3, 5, 8, 9 In reserveOne-letter suffiz Extra licenses |
PAMNO (N2EY) wrote in message ...
In article , (Steve Robeson K4YZ) writes: KH2D, who has *been there* says differently. See his posts on the subject. I read it. He refered to "CBers" with Amateur licenses. He did not specify that ther were licenses obtained from VE exams held at foreign hamfests. Sounded to me like "locals"... Unless I'm mistaken, only an Extra can be a VE that gives Extra exams. So you have a chicken-and-egg scenario about how such a setup could get started. There's nothing "chicken and egg" about it. We were discussing off shore US Amateur Radio exams. Jim chimed in about "CBer's with Extra licenses" on Guam, but not a word about them being FOREIGNERS, which is what I was addressing. Neither you, the other Jim nor Hans have provided a single bit of evidence that the tests administered OFF SHORE (in my definition meaning not conducted under the US flag, regardless if on US soil, an embassy or US military installation) has been done so inappropriately. And I said that if he didn't get the desired results, he should push it with DoJ. And they would do what? It's an offense committed outside US territory and US jurisdiction, unless it's at an embassy or similar place. It would, hopefully, get the licenses of the offenders revoked thereby depriving them of the basic premise for them BEING a VE, Jim. No US tickee no US testee. OK G.I.? Yet we HAVE had more than a small number of VE test session right here in the US that WERE just that (license for sale). I am sure there have been cases of fines, but in most cases, revocation of of licensure for both "licensee" and "examiner" was the only penalty enforced. And a US citizen cannot use a foreign amateur license in the USA. So the penalty is much tougher on them. That's not the point. Sure it is. No, it's not. The whole thread was initiated by Hans' lamentation over US exams being conducted overseas. US licenses being used by foreigners...Not foreign licenses being used by Americans. You brought up how to enforce regulations on foreign Amateurs who may allow some misconduct in the performance of a VE session. And the answer is... Determine wrongdoing (if any) by that Amateur and revoke his/her license. No US tickee, no US testee. OK, G.I.? No where did I say ANYthing about using a foreign license in the United States. What I DID say was that in VE session right here at home, conducted by Americans, the "most" penalties usually enforced are license revocation of both the licensee and the "examiner". Are you suggesting any GREATER penalty on a foreigner who commits the same crime? Do you dispute this fact? Cool down and think about the main point: I'm perfectly cool, Jim. I'm wondering how YOU are going from Hans' lamentations over US tests being conducted overseas to this being a discussion about Americans being able to use foreign licenses here. THAT was specifically codified in Part 97 as a no-no. No debate. Against the rules. Period. Besides the fact that it's just plain wrong, hams who live in US territory have two reasons not to cheat as VEs: 1) If they're caught, they could face fines and even jail time Uh huh...And how many VE's caught cheating have so far FACED jail time, 2) If they're caught, they could lose their FCC licenses, which means no ham radio on US territory, and maybe none at all. Ever. American licensees HAVE lost their licenses for cheating. So far just A nonresident alien with both a foreeign and US license doesn't face the same possible consequences. A non-resident alien DOES face the same consequences as US Amateurs...Revocation of licensure....Just like the others who HAVE lost their tickets, Jim. OK...then send a copy of the document to me and I'd be glad to sign on as a co-sponsor. But right now there's not much to argue with since what's going on appears to be legal and there's no other legal precedent for the FCC to say "No, We won't accept license applications from non-resident foreign nationals". Don't need a precedent. Sure you do. Why would the government revoke ANY privilege unless there was some misconduct or abuse of that privilege? Because they think it's not a good thing for the ARS, or for radio in general. Look at the multiple choice code tests - they were eliminated as part of the 2000 restructuring after many years of use - because hams complained that they weren't doing the job. Stop. Go back and read what I said previously and what YOU just wrote, Jim. Your own example examplifies MY point, Jim...there were COMPLAINTS. The Federal Government did not spontaneously decide to remove the test format. Allow me to reiterate uncase your scrollback isn't working: But right now there's not much to argue with since what's going on appears to be legal and there's no other legal precedent for the FCC to say "No, We won't accept license applications from non-resident foreign nationals". Don't need a precedent. Sure you do. Why would the government revoke ANY privilege unless there was some misconduct or abuse of that privilege? "Why would the government revoke ANY privilege unless there was some misconduct or abuse of that privilege". While you can argue the choice of words "misconduct" or "abuse" when applied to the multiple choice format, Jim, there as certainly no move afooot by the FCC to change it until there was a precedent (complaints) from the field to do so. If you force THAT issue, then "they" can adequately argue that there are even far greater abuses right here at home and the whole program goes out the window! So? Proof of discrimination, Jim. To act against them where no evidence of misconduct exists is discrimination. Why? If it's someone "new", they will have never known any other way...and I specifically stated that all those already licensed would not be forced to make any changes. Because the new folks would be subject to conditions that the existing hams didn't face. Amateurs getting licnesed today do not face the same conditions you and I faced 20-30 years ago, Jim. New licensees would not face any revocation of service they previously enjoyed. Old licensees would keep their old calls. Big deal. The FCC continues to offer the different "Group" callsigns, but if the licensee wants a call other than what was issued, they pony up the change...No more "sequential" calls other than the 2x3 they were issued. hooboy Why? Do you walk up to Burger King and just take the food? Fee-for-service is the way of the future if we continue to enact tax cuts. How much service is required to issue a sequential callsign? Enough that the FCC has, on several occassions, demanded to know why a particular licensee made several license changes within specific time frames. If it was no big deal, why would they fuss? As a matter of fact...I often wonder why they fuss over frequent Vanity changes...It's the one thing they ARE getting paid for, and the fee charged far exceeds the expected outlay of materials and manpower to accomplish. If some idiot has more money than common sense and wants to change his call every three months...let him. He paid for it. And no one looking for a 2-land call would wind up working someone in PA! Is that *really* such a problem? Many of the rarest states are in call districts that contain a lot of states, so even if that rule were reenacted the hunt is only slightly reduced. Jim...have you worked so many that you forgot this one basic premise of award hunting? Until it's worked and confirmed, they are ALL "rare"...! ! ! How about we make it even easier: Carve up the callsign blocks into state-specific ones so you could tell which exact state someone was in just from the call. For example, in the 3rd call district, all calls with an M, R or Y in the suffix could be restricted to Maryland only, all calls with D, E or L could be restricted to Delaware, and all the rest would go to PA. (Adjust as needed for population variation) So you could just look at a callsign and know which state the ham was in. Been nipping the cooking sherry a bit, have we, Jim...??? "dadididadit didididadah" takes about 1 second extra at 20WPM. Big deal. It is when you do it a couple thousand times in a weekend. Then how do you account for guys with "longer" calls that manage to do pretty well in the contests, Jim? Would I have to pay the fee to get a 3 land call? What did I say? What if all the 3-land 1x2s are gone? Ominus Feces Occurum. There'd be 3-laders living in FL and other places force to give up their "out-of-dictrict" calls too. Right. Somebody who's been a ham for 60+ years and held the same call, then moved to SFL 15 years ago would have to give it up or sign portable. Thanks a lot. Oh well...How many "desireable" 3 calls are in FL, Jim? The actual cost of the licensing program would go down since the FCC would no longer be issuing tons of "sequential" callsigns gratis, and fees collected would go up since you couldn't get any other format of call without ponying up the change to do so. Issuing sequentials costs almost nothing because the computer simply spits them out automatically. Still costs time to attend the computer, input the data, and pay for the actual forms and postage. No more time than the basic modification. Which are free anyway. "Free" to you. It still costs the FCC per-item processed. How's this for example: "Where a change of address is requested and no other change of callsign would be required due to location within the same call district, attaching a copy of the letter of notification sent to the Commission to the original station records shall be considered adequate. A change of address on the original license document will be reflected upon the next routine renewal or paid license transaction." No good. FCC is supposed to know how to contact licensees. That's why they need some sort of current address. I didn't say "don't send it in", Jim. I said attach a copy to your original station documents. You'd still send it in, and the FCC could update their records. They just wouldn't necessarily sned out a new document with each and every modification. They can find your transmitter by DF ing, but to send you a letter they need an address. Or at least a PO box. Uh huh. And what I proposed changed...what...??? and the fees would go up since they were no longer issuing (save for the initial call) gratis licenses. And the FCC would be getting paid to process what extra paperwork they DID receive. But do vanity fees go to FCC or to the general fund? Again, Jim, you're the one suggesting changes... I'm pointing out that your proposed changes would increase admin work that serves "no regulatory purpose". Making my search for WAS easier isn't FCC's job. No, it's not. But under your system, it no longer matters where the licensee is. So let's stop issuing a "6" call to Californians and "0" to Minnesotans, 4 to Tennesseeans, etc...Just start at KC1AAA (or wherever they are in the current sequential system) and keep on going until they get to WZ1ZZZ. Then start with KD2AAA and go to WZ2ZZZ, etc etc etc until we get to WZ0ZZZ, regardless of whether they are in Bangor Maine or Irvine, California. It doesn't matter, right...??? 73 Steve, K4YZ |
In article . net, "KØHB"
writes: One of those petitions asked that they allow amateurs to retain their calls when moving because many hams had become 'connected' to their call signs, almost as a 'name', and did not wish to surrender the call when moving. Finding no regulatory, enforcement, nor "good operating practice" reason that a ham shouldn't keep their callsign, they ruled in favor of the petitioner. Yep. There's also another factor: availability of callsigns in the new area. There was a time, back when the ARS was much smaller, that FCC would try to give "corresponding" calls when someone moved. W1ICP was W0ICP, for example. But that became "impractical". I got N2EY (sequentially issued) when I moved from EPA to WNY in 1977. By the time I moved back (1979), the FCC was not reissuing "abandoned" 1x2 calls. Something about their computer system. What it meant in my case was that if I'd asked for a 3-land call, I could have gotten a sequentially-issued 3-land 1x2. But N2EY would not have been reissued to anyone. So there would be one less Extra with a 1x2, and I decided to keep N2EY. Did I do the wrong thing? I guess it's no problem when you are running a full gallon and have the Internet right there at the operating position, Hans. Whether I'm running a "full gallon" or 100mW (which is closer to what I normally run) doesn't make it any easier to devine the source of a CQ. And what does the internet have to do with it? If you have internet access in the shack, you could look up a callsign heard and see what state the ham is in. Not a new idea, though - there used to be this thing called a "callbook" 73 de Jim, N2EY |
"N2EY" wrote in message ... In article . net, "KØHB" writes: One of those petitions asked that they allow amateurs to retain their calls when moving because many hams had become 'connected' to their call signs, almost as a 'name', and did not wish to surrender the call when moving. Finding no regulatory, enforcement, nor "good operating practice" reason that a ham shouldn't keep their callsign, they ruled in favor of the petitioner. Yep. There's also another factor: availability of callsigns in the new area. This is a more restrictive issue than most realize. There are only 2028 possible 1x2 callsigns and only 2028 possible 2x1 callsigns in each district. As of this point in time, most districts have none available for sequential issue and only a few available for vanity calls. Even the 1x3s, of which there are 52,728 possible combinations per district, are no longer available for sequential issue. Actually the number of callsigns is slightly smaller since there are certain suffixes that for various reasons are not made available for the general ham population. There was a time, back when the ARS was much smaller, that FCC would try to give "corresponding" calls when someone moved. W1ICP was W0ICP, for example. But that became "impractical". I got N2EY (sequentially issued) when I moved from EPA to WNY in 1977. By the time I moved back (1979), the FCC was not reissuing "abandoned" 1x2 calls. Something about their computer system. What it meant in my case was that if I'd asked for a 3-land call, I could have gotten a sequentially-issued 3-land 1x2. But N2EY would not have been reissued to anyone. So there would be one less Extra with a 1x2, and I decided to keep N2EY. Did I do the wrong thing? Absolutely not IMHO. I've moved several times: from 8 land to 9 land to 0 land and back to 8 land. It would make no sense to me to keep changing my call sign. And if one were restricted to sequentially issued calls, all that was available by the time I moved into each of these areas were the 2x2s beginning with A. I don't happen to like them. I guess it's no problem when you are running a full gallon and have the Internet right there at the operating position, Hans. Whether I'm running a "full gallon" or 100mW (which is closer to what I normally run) doesn't make it any easier to devine the source of a CQ. And what does the internet have to do with it? If you have internet access in the shack, you could look up a callsign heard and see what state the ham is in. Not a new idea, though - there used to be this thing called a "callbook" 73 de Jim, N2EY Don't need internet access even today. There are callbooks available on CD ROM for a non-internet connected computer. Besides that, what's wrong with just asking the guy (or gal)? In addition, if one is hunting states for WAS or whatever, monitor the contests that include section as part of the report and jump in when you find one. Or call CQ specifically for the states of interest. Dee D. Flint, N8UZE |
In article ,
(Steve Robeson, K4CAP) writes: (N2EY) wrote in message ... In article , (Steve Robeson K4YZ) writes: KH2D, who has *been there* says differently. See his posts on the subject. I read it. He refered to "CBers" with Amateur licenses. He did not specify that ther were licenses obtained from VE exams held at foreign hamfests. Sounded to me like "locals"... Unless I'm mistaken, only an Extra can be a VE that gives Extra exams. So you have a chicken-and-egg scenario about how such a setup could get started. There's nothing "chicken and egg" about it. We were discussing off shore US Amateur Radio exams. Jim chimed in about "CBer's with Extra licenses" on Guam, but not a word about them being FOREIGNERS, which is what I was addressing. Ask *him* if they were. I've never been to Guam. Neither you, the other Jim nor Hans have provided a single bit of evidence that the tests administered OFF SHORE (in my definition meaning not conducted under the US flag, regardless if on US soil, an embassy or US military installation) has been done so inappropriately. What evidence would you accept? And I said that if he didn't get the desired results, he should push it with DoJ. And they would do what? It's an offense committed outside US territory and US jurisdiction, unless it's at an embassy or similar place. It would, hopefully, get the licenses of the offenders revoked thereby depriving them of the basic premise for them BEING a VE, Jim. No US tickee no US testee. OK G.I.? Which would put them back where they were before the scam started. If they were noncitizens and held foreign licenses too, they'd still be hams. All they risk is their alleged income stream and US call. Yet we HAVE had more than a small number of VE test session right here in the US that WERE just that (license for sale). I am sure there have been cases of fines, but in most cases, revocation of of licensure for both "licensee" and "examiner" was the only penalty enforced. And a US citizen cannot use a foreign amateur license in the USA. So the penalty is much tougher on them. That's not the point. Sure it is. No, it's not. The whole thread was initiated by Hans' lamentation over US exams being conducted overseas. US licenses being used by foreigners...Not foreign licenses being used by Americans. You're missing it, Steve. You brought up how to enforce regulations on foreign Amateurs who may allow some misconduct in the performance of a VE session. And the answer is... Determine wrongdoing (if any) by that Amateur and revoke his/her license. No US tickee, no US testee. OK, G.I.? And that's it. No NAL, no other penalty. If the foreign ham holds a foreign license, he/she can still operate. No where did I say ANYthing about using a foreign license in the United States. What I DID say was that in VE session right here at home, conducted by Americans, the "most" penalties usually enforced are license revocation of both the licensee and the "examiner". Are you suggesting any GREATER penalty on a foreigner who commits the same crime? Do you dispute this fact? Cool down and think about the main point: I'm perfectly cool, Jim. But you're missing the main point. I'm wondering how YOU are going from Hans' lamentations over US tests being conducted overseas to this being a discussion about Americans being able to use foreign licenses here. It's the difference in consequences. THAT was specifically codified in Part 97 as a no-no. No debate. Against the rules. Period. Besides the fact that it's just plain wrong, hams who live in US territory have two reasons not to cheat as VEs: 1) If they're caught, they could face fines and even jail time Uh huh...And how many VE's caught cheating have so far FACED jail time, 2) If they're caught, they could lose their FCC licenses, which means no ham radio on US territory, and maybe none at all. Ever. American licensees HAVE lost their licenses for cheating. So far just A nonresident alien with both a foreeign and US license doesn't face the same possible consequences. A non-resident alien DOES face the same consequences as US Amateurs...Revocation of licensure....Just like the others who HAVE lost their tickets, Jim. And that's the difference you're missing. A US ham who loses his US license can't operate in US territory. And since many countries reciprocal-license based on US licensing, those countries are lost, too. That's why he-whose-name-must-not-be-mentioned who lost his license for character issues has tried so hard to get it back. A foreigner who holds dual licenses is not in the same situation. OK...then send a copy of the document to me and I'd be glad to sign on as a co-sponsor. But right now there's not much to argue with since what's going on appears to be legal and there's no other legal precedent for the FCC to say "No, We won't accept license applications from non-resident foreign nationals". Don't need a precedent. Sure you do. Why would the government revoke ANY privilege unless there was some misconduct or abuse of that privilege? Because they think it's not a good thing for the ARS, or for radio in general. Look at the multiple choice code tests - they were eliminated as part of the 2000 restructuring after many years of use - because hams complained that they weren't doing the job. Stop. Go back and read what I said previously and what YOU just wrote, Jim. Your own example examplifies MY point, Jim...there were COMPLAINTS. The Federal Government did not spontaneously decide to remove the test format. Right! Specifically, there were complaints *in the restructuring comments*. FCC took heed of them and acted. So Hans and Jim and others complain. Allow me to reiterate uncase your scrollback isn't working: But right now there's not much to argue with since what's going on appears to be legal and there's no other legal precedent for the FCC to say "No, We won't accept license applications from non-resident foreign nationals". Don't need a precedent. Sure you do. Why would the government revoke ANY privilege unless there was some misconduct or abuse of that privilege? "Why would the government revoke ANY privilege unless there was some misconduct or abuse of that privilege". While you can argue the choice of words "misconduct" or "abuse" when applied to the multiple choice format, Jim, there as certainly no move afooot by the FCC to change it until there was a precedent (complaints) from the field to do so. And there were! If you force THAT issue, then "they" can adequately argue that there are even far greater abuses right here at home and the whole program goes out the window! So? Proof of discrimination, Jim. To act against them where no evidence of misconduct exists is discrimination. Not at all. Discrimination is *defined* as unequal treatment without a relevant reason. Why? If it's someone "new", they will have never known any other way...and I specifically stated that all those already licensed would not be forced to make any changes. Because the new folks would be subject to conditions that the existing hams didn't face. Amateurs getting licnesed today do not face the same conditions you and I faced 20-30 years ago, Jim. 37 years ago in my case. The new conditions are much easier. New licensees would not face any revocation of service they previously enjoyed. Old licensees would keep their old calls. Big deal. It's a big deal if you're on the other side of that fence. The FCC continues to offer the different "Group" callsigns, but if the licensee wants a call other than what was issued, they pony up the change...No more "sequential" calls other than the 2x3 they were issued. hooboy Why? Do you walk up to Burger King and just take the food? Fee-for-service is the way of the future if we continue to enact tax cuts. How much service is required to issue a sequential callsign? Enough that the FCC has, on several occassions, demanded to know why a particular licensee made several license changes within specific time frames. How often has that happened? Are you sure FCC didn't have anither reason, such as someone trying to evade detection? Example: Someone gets booted off the local repeaters for acting inappropriately, then goes and gets a new callsign to hide his identity. If it was no big deal, why would they fuss? Lots of reasons. Another is TVI. As a matter of fact...I often wonder why they fuss over frequent Vanity changes...It's the one thing they ARE getting paid for, and the fee charged far exceeds the expected outlay of materials and manpower to accomplish. For one thing, frequent vanity changing locks up calls from reissue for two years. If some idiot has more money than common sense and wants to change his call every three months...let him. He paid for it. Even though it denies others access to those calls for two years? Once or twice is a mistake, several times is something else. And no one looking for a 2-land call would wind up working someone in PA! Is that *really* such a problem? Many of the rarest states are in call districts that contain a lot of states, so even if that rule were reenacted the hunt is only slightly reduced. Jim...have you worked so many that you forgot this one basic premise of award hunting? Until it's worked and confirmed, they are ALL "rare"...! ! ! It's not FCC's job to make my award-hunting easier. How about we make it even easier: Carve up the callsign blocks into state-specific ones so you could tell which exact state someone was in just from the call. For example, in the 3rd call district, all calls with an M, R or Y in the suffix could be restricted to Maryland only, all calls with D, E or L could be restricted to Delaware, and all the rest would go to PA. (Adjust as needed for population variation) So you could just look at a callsign and know which state the ham was in. Been nipping the cooking sherry a bit, have we, Jim...??? Why couldn't that be done? It would make SS easy as pie. In fact, some hams have done it already on a voluntary basis. Guess what state N0SD is in... "dadididadit didididadah" takes about 1 second extra at 20WPM. Big deal. It is when you do it a couple thousand times in a weekend. Then how do you account for guys with "longer" calls that manage to do pretty well in the contests, Jim? They'd do better with shorter calls. Look at the leaders and see how many have 2x3s compared to those with 1x2s. Would I have to pay the fee to get a 3 land call? What did I say? What if all the 3-land 1x2s are gone? Ominus Feces Occurum. There'd be 3-laders living in FL and other places force to give up their "out-of-dictrict" calls too. Right. Somebody who's been a ham for 60+ years and held the same call, then moved to SFL 15 years ago would have to give it up or sign portable. Thanks a lot. Oh well...How many "desireable" 3 calls are in FL, Jim? Quite a few! Snowbirds from here. The actual cost of the licensing program would go down since the FCC would no longer be issuing tons of "sequential" callsigns gratis, and fees collected would go up since you couldn't get any other format of call without ponying up the change to do so. Issuing sequentials costs almost nothing because the computer simply spits them out automatically. Still costs time to attend the computer, input the data, and pay for the actual forms and postage. No more time than the basic modification. Which are free anyway. "Free" to you. It still costs the FCC per-item processed. The cost is in the handling, data input, materials and postage. Which occur in all transactions. How's this for example: "Where a change of address is requested and no other change of callsign would be required due to location within the same call district, attaching a copy of the letter of notification sent to the Commission to the original station records shall be considered adequate. A change of address on the original license document will be reflected upon the next routine renewal or paid license transaction." No good. FCC is supposed to know how to contact licensees. That's why they need some sort of current address. I didn't say "don't send it in", Jim. I said attach a copy to your original station documents. You'd still send it in, and the FCC could update their records. They just wouldn't necessarily sned out a new document with each and every modification. All that saves is the FCC having to print out and send a modified license. They'd still have to receive your letter, input the data, and update the database. With modern dataprocessing, having to do all that but not send a license saves less than a dollar. They can find your transmitter by DF ing, but to send you a letter they need an address. Or at least a PO box. Uh huh. And what I proposed changed...what...??? Having the license match the database. If FCC really wanted to save a few admin pennies, they'd renew every nonvanity license upon modification. Doing so would eliminate renewal-only transactions. and the fees would go up since they were no longer issuing (save for the initial call) gratis licenses. And the FCC would be getting paid to process what extra paperwork they DID receive. But do vanity fees go to FCC or to the general fund? Again, Jim, you're the one suggesting changes... I'm pointing out that your proposed changes would increase admin work that serves "no regulatory purpose". Making my search for WAS easier isn't FCC's job. No, it's not. But under your system, it no longer matters where the licensee is. So let's stop issuing a "6" call to Californians and "0" to Minnesotans, 4 to Tennesseeans, etc...Just start at KC1AAA (or wherever they are in the current sequential system) and keep on going until they get to WZ1ZZZ. Then start with KD2AAA and go to WZ2ZZZ, etc etc etc until we get to WZ0ZZZ, regardless of whether they are in Bangor Maine or Irvine, California. It doesn't matter, right...??? Not really. 73 de Jim, N2EY |
In article t, "KØHB"
writes: So you could just look at a callsign and know which state the ham was in. Aw, gee, Jim, that isn't nearly complicated enough. Yeah - what was I thinking? You gotta get it down to the country level at least, preferably the city or township level. Naw. Grid squares! The control freaks would like something like the old convoluted USSR system. If you knew a guys call sign, the system was almost detailed enough to use for targeting ICBMs. See below. Riley Hollingsworth could just dial in your call sign, and a boomer sub off the coast of New Jersey would target a tomahawk with the violation notice attached to the nosecone. There's a way to spend the peace dividend! (remember that?) I can just see it now ---- "Hey, K4CAP, your stations RF Exposure Evaluation appears to need updating. Please report when you have completed the required survey." bwaahaahaa It sure would make SS, county-hunting and such a bit easier, though. TERRITORIES, PREFIXES AND SUFFIXES OF THE FORMER USSR. (snipped due to length) Did those guys have a fixation for bureaucracy or what? Or maybe their DF capabilites were very limited. And don't forget RAEM 73 de Jim, N2EY |
Subject: Who Can Have A US License? Sequential Calls? From: PAMNO (N2EY) Date: 11/26/2004 8:31 AM Central Standard Time Message-id: Did those guys have a fixation for bureaucracy or what? Or maybe their DF capabilites were very limited. I guess that's what happens when you have bureaucrats sitting around with nothing to do except validate their existence as "public servants". Especially when jobs are scarce and you have mouths to feed. 73 Steve, K4YZ |
Subject: Who Can Have A US License? Sequential Calls?
From: PAMNO (N2EY) Date: 11/26/2004 8:31 AM Central Standard Time Message-id: In article , (Steve Robeson, K4CAP) writes: There's nothing "chicken and egg" about it. We were discussing off shore US Amateur Radio exams. Jim chimed in about "CBer's with Extra licenses" on Guam, but not a word about them being FOREIGNERS, which is what I was addressing. Ask *him* if they were. I've never been to Guam. Me neither. Neither you, the other Jim nor Hans have provided a single bit of evidence that the tests administered OFF SHORE (in my definition meaning not conducted under the US flag, regardless if on US soil, an embassy or US military installation) has been done so inappropriately. What evidence would you accept? How about some sort of organized survey of the exams? A written complaint from one of the licensees. A written complaint from someone who's been there who can attest, first hand, to the alleged improprieties. Considering the change in recent years over Amateur enforcement, it's time to revisit the issue with the FCC. And perhaps a letter to Tom Ridge as previously suggested. No US tickee no US testee. OK G.I.? Which would put them back where they were before the scam started. If they were noncitizens and held foreign licenses too, they'd still be hams. All they risk is their alleged income stream and US call. But they'd not be breaking US law anymore. Just like the AMERICANS who ahve been caught doing it in the past, Jim. The whole thread was initiated by Hans' lamentation over US exams being conducted overseas. US licenses being used by foreigners...Not foreign licenses being used by Americans. You're missing it, Steve. Well...I went back and checked Hans' first post. Seems I STILL "have" it, Jim. No US tickee, no US testee. OK, G.I.? And that's it. No NAL, no other penalty. If the foreign ham holds a foreign license, he/she can still operate. OK...big deal. And if he was determined to have broken US law, he loses his US license. And under the present state of affairs vis-a-vis security, chances are would face a hard time getting a visa INTO the United States, if DoS was involved. Also, his loss of revenue from not being able to "conduct" the scam. I'm perfectly cool, Jim. But you're missing the main point. No, I'm not. You think there should be a lot more potent penalty system in place to hold these persons accountable. I agree. But under present laws it doesn't exist. And under current case law, you'd have a hard time getting anyone to do anything OTHER than to revoke the "examiners" license since that's the precendent the FCC has established. I'm wondering how YOU are going from Hans' lamentations over US tests being conducted overseas to this being a discussion about Americans being able to use foreign licenses here. It's the difference in consequences. Again, you'd have a hard time getting a "penalty" any more severe than what has already been established by FCC practice. A non-resident alien DOES face the same consequences as US Amateurs...Revocation of licensure....Just like the others who HAVE lost their tickets, Jim. And that's the difference you're missing. A US ham who loses his US license can't operate in US territory. And since many countries reciprocal-license based on US licensing, those countries are lost, too. That's why he-whose-name-must-not-be-mentioned who lost his license for character issues has tried so hard to get it back. You mean Herb Schoenblohm (sp?) Or Mittnick? Neither of those persons lost their respective licenses for violating Part 97, Jim. Neither of them conducted scam VE tests. And Herb HAS gotten his license back, although someone else took his KV4 call last I remember. A foreigner who holds dual licenses is not in the same situation. Granted. But he CAN be made to suffer the same penalty that US citizens have been Specifically, there were complaints *in the restructuring comments*. FCC took heed of them and acted. So Hans and Jim and others complain. Hans' comments, so far, have been limite to this forum. As for Jim's...haven't seen them to establish an informed opinion from...But if they didn't get the desired results the first time, they To act against them where no evidence of misconduct exists is discrimination. Not at all. Discrimination is *defined* as unequal treatment without a relevant reason. Very good. Are you going to continue to unravel your own arguements, Jim? If so I will just let you and you be alone..... Amateurs getting licnesed today do not face the same conditions you and I faced 20-30 years ago, Jim. 37 years ago in my case. The new conditions are much easier. And nothing prevents us from making the process more challenging in order to meet the needs of Part 97. New licensees would not face any revocation of service they previously enjoyed. Old licensees would keep their old calls. Big deal. It's a big deal if you're on the other side of that fence. Enough that the FCC has, on several occassions, demanded to know why a particular licensee made several license changes within specific time frames. How often has that happened? It's been in QST, Jim...I am sorry I don't recall teh specific circumstances, but a fellow made several changes under the SEQUENTIAL system and was called on the carpet for it. Are you sure FCC didn't have anither reason, such as someone trying to evade detection? Example: Someone gets booted off the local repeaters for acting inappropriately, then goes and gets a new callsign to hide his identity. Obviously not. He used the same name and addresses the FCC was obviously able to get ahold of him at. Then how do you account for guys with "longer" calls that manage to do pretty well in the contests, Jim? They'd do better with shorter calls. Look at the leaders and see how many have 2x3s compared to those with 1x2s. True...but almost every one of those "1 x 2" calls that hit the big time in every contest are megastations. I bet they'd do just as well signing "K4CAP". Oh well...How many "desireable" 3 calls are in FL, Jim? Quite a few! Snowbirds from here. If they are "snowbirds", then they still reside in taht area...just move for the weather. "Free" to you. It still costs the FCC per-item processed. The cost is in the handling, data input, materials and postage. Which occur in all transactions. Which would be direcetly paid by the applicant if they wanted a call otehr than the 2 x 3 they were issued. I said attach a copy to your original station documents. You'd still send it in, and the FCC could update their records. They just wouldn't necessarily sned out a new document with each and every modification. All that saves is the FCC having to print out and send a modified license. They'd still have to receive your letter, input the data, and update the database. With modern dataprocessing, having to do all that but not send a license saves less than a dollar. "Times" how many transactions a year...??? That's a LOT of "dollars", Jim! Let's say it takes 2 minutes for a quick clerk to do the inputing. I'll assume that on present GS scale they are making $10/hr. That's about .17/min, or .34. Postage, bulk rate, already costs them .30 each, so we are up to $0.60. I bet it's a safe bet that the actual document itself is worth another ..25 to .30/piece. So that's up to $.90 per document. And we haven't even added in overhead...the computer itself...office costs, etc. If FCC really wanted to save a few admin pennies, they'd renew every nonvanity license upon modification. Doing so would eliminate renewal-only transactions. No arguement from me. It can't be more than a keystroke to do. No, it's not. But under your system, it no longer matters where the licensee is. So let's stop issuing a "6" call to Californians and "0" to Minnesotans, 4 to Tennesseeans, etc...Just start at KC1AAA (or wherever they are in the current sequential system) and keep on going until they get to WZ1ZZZ. Then start with KD2AAA and go to WZ2ZZZ, etc etc etc until we get to WZ0ZZZ, regardless of whether they are in Bangor Maine or Irvine, California. It doesn't matter, right...??? Not really. Then WHAT'S your fuss over whether you have a 2 call or a three? =) 73 Steve, K4YZ |
(Steve Robeson K4YZ) wrote in
: Subject: Who Can Have A US License? Sequential Calls? From: PAMNO (N2EY) Date: 11/26/2004 8:31 AM Central Standard Time Message-id: In article , (Steve Robeson, K4CAP) writes: There's nothing "chicken and egg" about it. We were discussing off shore US Amateur Radio exams. Jim chimed in about "CBer's with Extra licenses" on Guam, but not a word about them being FOREIGNERS, which is what I was addressing. Ask *him* if they were. I've never been to Guam. Me neither. Neither you, the other Jim nor Hans have provided a single bit of evidence that the tests administered OFF SHORE (in my definition meaning not conducted under the US flag, regardless if on US soil, an embassy or US military installation) has been done so inappropriately. What evidence would you accept? How about some sort of organized survey of the exams? A written complaint from one of the licensees. A written complaint from someone who's been there who can attest, first hand, to the alleged improprieties. Considering the change in recent years over Amateur enforcement, it's time to revisit the issue with the FCC. And perhaps a letter to Tom Ridge as previously suggested. No US tickee no US testee. OK G.I.? Which would put them back where they were before the scam started. If they were noncitizens and held foreign licenses too, they'd still be hams. All they risk is their alleged income stream and US call. But they'd not be breaking US law anymore. Just like the AMERICANS who ahve been caught doing it in the past, Jim. The whole thread was initiated by Hans' lamentation over US exams being conducted overseas. US licenses being used by foreigners...Not foreign licenses being used by Americans. You're missing it, Steve. Well...I went back and checked Hans' first post. Seems I STILL "have" it, Jim. No US tickee, no US testee. OK, G.I.? And that's it. No NAL, no other penalty. If the foreign ham holds a foreign license, he/she can still operate. OK...big deal. And if he was determined to have broken US law, he loses his US license. And under the present state of affairs vis-a-vis security, chances are would face a hard time getting a visa INTO the United States, if DoS was involved. Also, his loss of revenue from not being able to "conduct" the scam. I'm perfectly cool, Jim. But you're missing the main point. No, I'm not. You think there should be a lot more potent penalty system in place to hold these persons accountable. I agree. But under present laws it doesn't exist. And under current case law, you'd have a hard time getting anyone to do anything OTHER than to revoke the "examiners" license since that's the precendent the FCC has established. I'm wondering how YOU are going from Hans' lamentations over US tests being conducted overseas to this being a discussion about Americans being able to use foreign licenses here. It's the difference in consequences. Again, you'd have a hard time getting a "penalty" any more severe than what has already been established by FCC practice. A non-resident alien DOES face the same consequences as US Amateurs...Revocation of licensure....Just like the others who HAVE lost their tickets, Jim. And that's the difference you're missing. A US ham who loses his US license can't operate in US territory. And since many countries reciprocal-license based on US licensing, those countries are lost, too. That's why he-whose-name-must-not-be-mentioned who lost his license for character issues has tried so hard to get it back. You mean Herb Schoenblohm (sp?) Or Mittnick? Neither of those persons lost their respective licenses for violating Part 97, Jim. Neither of them conducted scam VE tests. And Herb HAS gotten his license back, although someone else took his KV4 call last I remember. A foreigner who holds dual licenses is not in the same situation. Granted. But he CAN be made to suffer the same penalty that US citizens have been Specifically, there were complaints *in the restructuring comments*. FCC took heed of them and acted. So Hans and Jim and others complain. Hans' comments, so far, have been limite to this forum. As for Jim's...haven't seen them to establish an informed opinion from...But if they didn't get the desired results the first time, they To act against them where no evidence of misconduct exists is discrimination. Not at all. Discrimination is *defined* as unequal treatment without a relevant reason. Very good. Are you going to continue to unravel your own arguements, Jim? If so I will just let you and you be alone..... Amateurs getting licnesed today do not face the same conditions you and I faced 20-30 years ago, Jim. 37 years ago in my case. The new conditions are much easier. And nothing prevents us from making the process more challenging in order to meet the needs of Part 97. New licensees would not face any revocation of service they previously enjoyed. Old licensees would keep their old calls. Big deal. It's a big deal if you're on the other side of that fence. Enough that the FCC has, on several occassions, demanded to know why a particular licensee made several license changes within specific time frames. How often has that happened? It's been in QST, Jim...I am sorry I don't recall teh specific circumstances, but a fellow made several changes under the SEQUENTIAL system and was called on the carpet for it. Are you sure FCC didn't have anither reason, such as someone trying to evade detection? Example: Someone gets booted off the local repeaters for acting inappropriately, then goes and gets a new callsign to hide his identity. Obviously not. He used the same name and addresses the FCC was obviously able to get ahold of him at. Then how do you account for guys with "longer" calls that manage to do pretty well in the contests, Jim? They'd do better with shorter calls. Look at the leaders and see how many have 2x3s compared to those with 1x2s. True...but almost every one of those "1 x 2" calls that hit the big time in every contest are megastations. I bet they'd do just as well signing "K4CAP". Oh well...How many "desireable" 3 calls are in FL, Jim? Quite a few! Snowbirds from here. If they are "snowbirds", then they still reside in taht area...just move for the weather. "Free" to you. It still costs the FCC per-item processed. The cost is in the handling, data input, materials and postage. Which occur in all transactions. Which would be direcetly paid by the applicant if they wanted a call otehr than the 2 x 3 they were issued. I said attach a copy to your original station documents. You'd still send it in, and the FCC could update their records. They just wouldn't necessarily sned out a new document with each and every modification. All that saves is the FCC having to print out and send a modified license. They'd still have to receive your letter, input the data, and update the database. With modern dataprocessing, having to do all that but not send a license saves less than a dollar. "Times" how many transactions a year...??? That's a LOT of "dollars", Jim! Let's say it takes 2 minutes for a quick clerk to do the inputing. I'll assume that on present GS scale they are making $10/hr. That's about .17/min, or .34. Postage, bulk rate, already costs them .30 each, so we are up to $0.60. I bet it's a safe bet that the actual document itself is worth another .25 to .30/piece. So that's up to $.90 per document. And we haven't even added in overhead...the computer itself...office costs, etc. If FCC really wanted to save a few admin pennies, they'd renew every nonvanity license upon modification. Doing so would eliminate renewal-only transactions. No arguement from me. It can't be more than a keystroke to do. No, it's not. But under your system, it no longer matters where the licensee is. So let's stop issuing a "6" call to Californians and "0" to Minnesotans, 4 to Tennesseeans, etc...Just start at KC1AAA (or wherever they are in the current sequential system) and keep on going until they get to WZ1ZZZ. Then start with KD2AAA and go to WZ2ZZZ, etc etc etc until we get to WZ0ZZZ, regardless of whether they are in Bangor Maine or Irvine, California. It doesn't matter, right...??? Not really. Then WHAT'S your fuss over whether you have a 2 call or a three? =) 73 Steve, K4YZ It would be impossible to levy fines against foreign hams resdiding overseas in most cases. You would only be able to go after their assets in the US, if any. If they have no assets in the US you can't do more than is being done now, unless they voluntarily come to the US. Demands to do the impossible may help some to let off steam, but that's about it. |
In article , "Dee D. Flint"
writes: "N2EY" wrote in message ... In article . net, "KØHB" writes: One of those petitions asked that they allow amateurs to retain their calls when moving because many hams had become 'connected' to their call signs, almost as a 'name', and did not wish to surrender the call when moving. Finding no regulatory, enforcement, nor "good operating practice" reason that a ham shouldn't keep their callsign, they ruled in favor of the petitioner. Yep. There's also another factor: availability of callsigns in the new area. This is a more restrictive issue than most realize. There are only 2028 possible 1x2 callsigns and only 2028 possible 2x1 callsigns in each district. As of this point in time, most districts have none available for sequential issue and only a few available for vanity calls. If hams were required to change callsigns when moving across district lines, It's highly probable that there would usually be *no* 1x2s or 2x1s available in most districts, because they'd all be tied up by current holders or in the 2 year period. Even the 1x3s, of which there are 52,728 possible combinations per district, are no longer available for sequential issue. The "no longer available for sequential issue" thing is, I think, due solely to an FCC decision. IIRC, their computers are not set up to do it. Yet. Besides, it generates vanity revenue. Actually the number of callsigns is slightly smaller since there are certain suffixes that for various reasons are not made available for the general ham population. Exactly. There was a time, back when the ARS was much smaller, that FCC would try to give "corresponding" calls when someone moved. W1ICP was W0ICP, for example. But that became "impractical". I got N2EY (sequentially issued) when I moved from EPA to WNY in 1977. By the time I moved back (1979), the FCC was not reissuing "abandoned" 1x2 calls. Something about their computer system. What it meant in my case was that if I'd asked for a 3-land call, I could have gotten a sequentially-issued 3-land 1x2. But N2EY would not have been reissued to anyone. So there would be one less Extra with a 1x2, and I decided to keep N2EY. Did I do the wrong thing? Absolutely not IMHO. I've moved several times: from 8 land to 9 land to 0 land and back to 8 land. It would make no sense to me to keep changing my call sign. And if one were restricted to sequentially issued calls, all that was available by the time I moved into each of these areas were the 2x2s beginning with A. I don't happen to like them. If everyone had to change with every move, even those would probably be all tied up. If you have internet access in the shack, you could look up a callsign heard and see what state the ham is in. Not a new idea, though - there used to be this thing called a "callbook" 73 de Jim, N2EY Don't need internet access even today. There are callbooks available on CD ROM for a non-internet connected computer. My point was simply that even thr Ancient Ones in the BPC times had ways of finding the rare states. Besides that, what's wrong with just asking the guy (or gal)? Ya gotta work him first. In addition, if one is hunting states for WAS or whatever, monitor the contests that include section as part of the report and jump in when you find one. Or call CQ specifically for the states of interest. I've found that in CW SS, section-hunting is usually (not always) a waste of time. Except for the very rare/difficult ones (NT, NL, AK, PAC [from EPA]), I've found that simply working everything you can hear will get you 70+ sections. Getting the really rare ones is a different game, of course, but relatively few are "really rare". And the rare ones are often easily found by the size of the pileup on them. In SS 2004, the Type 7 and I worked all states except Hawaii. 100 homebrew watts, inverted V at 37 feet, paper logs and a bug. 73 de Jim, N2EY |
"N2EY" wrote In SS 2004, the Type 7 and I worked all states except Hawaii. 100 homebrew watts, inverted V at 37 feet, paper logs and a bug. Ah yes, "a boy and his radio", not a net-connected, cluster-spoon-fed, computer-dependent robo-station tended by a jumpsuited sycopant "if they're not a W6 they can't be in California" techno-control-geek with thick glasses. There's hope for radiosport after all! 73, de Hans, K0HB/4ID |
|
In article . net, "KØHB"
writes: "N2EY" wrote In SS 2004, the Type 7 and I worked all states except Hawaii. 100 homebrew watts, inverted V at 37 feet, paper logs and a bug. Ah yes, "a boy and his radio", not a net-connected, cluster-spoon-fed, computer-dependent robo-station Can I use that description? tended by a jumpsuited sycopant "if they're not a W6 they can't be in California" techno-control-geek with thick glasses. Well, I don't own any jumpsuits but I did have to get glasses last year... There's hope for radiosport after all! CQWW, anyone? 73 de Jim, N2EY |
"N2EY" wrote writes: "N2EY" wrote Ah yes, "a boy and his radio", not a net-connected, cluster-spoon-fed, computer-dependent robo-station Can I use that description? No, because some W4 will 'remember' reading it first in CQ or QST and publicly smear your name as a plagiarist without first checking her facts. I've seen it happen. 73, de Hans, K0HB/4ID PS: I hereby grant to N2EY permission for royalty-free use of my description "net-connected, cluster-spoon-fed, computer-dependent robo-station©" for any non-commercial purpose. |
"N2EY" wrote in message ... In article , "Dee D. Flint" writes: Even the 1x3s, of which there are 52,728 possible combinations per district, are no longer available for sequential issue. The "no longer available for sequential issue" thing is, I think, due solely to an FCC decision. IIRC, their computers are not set up to do it. Yet. Besides, it generates vanity revenue. No, it was not due to an FCC decision. They used them up. Figuratively speaking, I was there, as they say, at the point in time when they ran out. Sequentially available 1x3s ran out in most districts in '92, '93, or '94 (some districts were slower than others and some may have gone on slightly longer). My call is my original one issued in 1992 and as you can see from the fact that it is N8UZE that they were already close to the end of the 1x3s in district 8 by then. My daughter's call sign, issued in 1993, is N8ZNW. The pattern of issue was first to use W calls, then K calls, and finally N calls. Slightly off topic, 2x3 calls being issued at this time are still in the K sequence. For a while, I followed the call sign usage just out of curiosity to see when they would run out. The biggest reason that I did not change my call sign upon getting my Extra was that district 8 was out of 1x2 call signs by the time I passed my Extra test in late 1992 (upgraded license was issued in early 1993). I had no interest in Extra class call signs in the 2x1 or 2x2 format. Dee D. Flint, N8UZE |
In article , "Dee D. Flint"
writes: The "no longer available for sequential issue" thing is, I think, due solely to an FCC decision. IIRC, their computers are not set up to do it. Yet. Besides, it generates vanity revenue. No, it was not due to an FCC decision. They used them up. Well, they went through them. See below. Figuratively speaking, I was there, as they say, at the point in time when they ran out. Sequentially available 1x3s ran out in most districts in '92, '93, or '94 (some districts were slower than others and some may have gone on slightly longer). My call is my original one issued in 1992 and as you can see from the fact that it is N8UZE that they were already close to the end of the 1x3s in district 8 by then. My daughter's call sign, issued in 1993, is N8ZNW. The pattern of issue was first to use W calls, then K calls, and finally N calls. Slightly off topic, 2x3 calls being issued at this time are still in the K sequence. For a while, I followed the call sign usage just out of curiosity to see when they would run out. What I was trying to describe is that while FCC may have issued all of the 1x3s, they're not all in use. Once upon a time, when, say, W8ZZZ was reached, FCC would go back to W8AAA and "fill in the gaps". This was done sequentially - you didn't get a choice. Of course that sort of thing takes resources and also reduces the demand for vanity calls. The biggest reason that I did not change my call sign upon getting my Extra was that district 8 was out of 1x2 call signs by the time I passed my Extra test in late 1992 (upgraded license was issued in early 1993). I had no interest in Extra class call signs in the 2x1 or 2x2 format. Works for me! 73 de Jim, N2EY |
PAMNO (N2EY) wrote in
: In article , (Steve Robeson K4YZ) writes: What evidence would you accept? How about some sort of organized survey of the exams? A written complaint from one of the licensees. A written complaint from someone who's been there who can attest, first hand, to the alleged improprieties. Considering the change in recent years over Amateur enforcement, it's time to revisit the issue with the FCC. And perhaps a letter to Tom Ridge as previously suggested. I doubt he'd be interested... No US tickee no US testee. OK G.I.? Which would put them back where they were before the scam started. If they were noncitizens and held foreign licenses too, they'd still be hams. All they risk is their alleged income stream and US call. But they'd not be breaking US law anymore. Just like the AMERICANS who ahve been caught doing it in the past, Jim. The whole thread was initiated by Hans' lamentation over US exams being conducted overseas. US licenses being used by foreigners...Not foreign licenses being used by Americans. You're missing it, Steve. Well...I went back and checked Hans' first post. Seems I STILL "have" it, Jim. Not the point I was making. No US tickee, no US testee. OK, G.I.? And that's it. No NAL, no other penalty. If the foreign ham holds a foreign license, he/she can still operate. OK...big deal. That's ultimately what the license is for.. And if he was determined to have broken US law, he loses his US license. So he uses his license from his country of residence. And under the present state of affairs vis-a-vis security, chances are would face a hard time getting a visa INTO the United States, if DoS was involved. Not everyone wants to come here. Also, his loss of revenue from not being able to "conduct" the scam. Which I previously mentioned. But that's the risk no matter what. I'm perfectly cool, Jim. But you're missing the main point. No, I'm not. You think there should be a lot more potent penalty system in place to hold these persons accountable. No, I think the rules need to be changed. Specifically, someone who is neither a US citizen nor a resident of US territory should not be allowed to hold a permanent US ham license, nor to function as a VE. IMHO. That specific change would probably get through the lawyers. I can see a couple of downsides to it, FWIW. Firstly, VE teams serving Americans overseas could no longer make use of any locals as VEs. Maybe they don't anyway? Secondly, foreign-based DXpeditions to rare US islands would have to recite a portable call. I agree. But under present laws it doesn't exist. And under current case law, you'd have a hard time getting anyone to do anything OTHER than to revoke the "examiners" license since that's the precendent the FCC has established. So we change the rules. That's what Hans wants, and I say he's right. I'm wondering how YOU are going from Hans' lamentations over US tests being conducted overseas to this being a discussion about Americans being able to use foreign licenses here. It's the difference in consequences. Again, you'd have a hard time getting a "penalty" any more severe than what has already been established by FCC practice. A non-resident alien DOES face the same consequences as US Amateurs...Revocation of licensure....Just like the others who HAVE lost their tickets, Jim. And that's the difference you're missing. A US ham who loses his US license can't operate in US territory. And since many countries reciprocal-license based on US licensing, those countries are lost, too. That's why he-whose-name-must-not-be-mentioned who lost his license for character issues has tried so hard to get it back. You mean Herb Schoenblohm (sp?) Or Mittnick? Neither of those persons lost their respective licenses for violating Part 97, Jim. Last time I looked, they were both citizens. Neither of them conducted scam VE tests. And Herb HAS gotten his license back, although someone else took his KV4 call last I remember. A foreigner who holds dual licenses is not in the same situation. Granted. But he CAN be made to suffer the same penalty that US citizens have been How you gonna collect the NAL? As I said before, unless he has assets in the US, you're not. Specifically, there were complaints *in the restructuring comments*. FCC took heed of them and acted. So Hans and Jim and others complain. Hans' comments, so far, have been limite to this forum. As for Jim's...haven't seen them to establish an informed opinion from...But if they didn't get the desired results the first time, they Point is, there was enough complaining to FCC about multiple choice code tests that they were eliminated. If there's enough complaining about nonresident aliens being VEs and holding permanent US licenses, those rules can change too. AFAIK, the NCVEC eliminated those tests, not the FCC Consider what most countries outside the US do when an American wants to operate. They issue a license good for a specific short time, based on the valid US license. There's usually a fee in good old US dollars. American gets to operate from Lower Podunkia and everyone has a good time. Why can't we do the same thing? There are almost as many ways of doing this as there are countries. The UK has no reciprocal licences per se, only permanent or temporary licences. If you give a UK address you can get a permanent licence, which is the same licence you get for passing a test. If not, you get a temporary licence with a portable call. Either way there is a fee, and for the temporary licence you pay the regular annual fee for only six months. For a while I held a second UK call (G0VUK) based on my US licence. However, since the code test was abolished my original call (G8VUK) has full operating privileges. Some countries issue visitor's licences with a distinctive call. For example, my Irish call is EI4VXI. The V is for visitor. It is free for upto a month, and costs progressively more for longer periods, and I can get the same call back on subsequent visits. I beleive that the latest ITU conference authorised calls with four call letters. That would make possible a visitor's call like, say, KH2VXYZ! I doubt that the FCC would be interested in administering this or collecting the money, so if it were done it would have to be done through the VE system. I can even envision that the FCC wouldn't have any record of these calls atall. They probably wouldn't fit in their database. Perhaps the NCVEC could keep track of them? Just a thought. To act against them where no evidence of misconduct exists is discrimination. Not at all. Discrimination is *defined* as unequal treatment without a relevant reason. Very good. Are you going to continue to unravel your own arguements, Jim? If so I will just let you and you be alone..... How am I unrvavelling anything? Being neither a resident nor a citizen is a valid reason to deny a license. IMHO. YMMV. LSMFT Amateurs getting licnesed today do not face the same conditions you and I faced 20-30 years ago, Jim. 37 years ago in my case. The new conditions are much easier. And nothing prevents us from making the process more challenging in order to meet the needs of Part 97. Sure it does. All the screaming that would result. Also FCC's reluctance to take back certain functions. Like collecting fees. New licensees would not face any revocation of service they previously enjoyed. Old licensees would keep their old calls. Big deal. It's a big deal if you're on the other side of that fence. Enough that the FCC has, on several occassions, demanded to know why a particular licensee made several license changes within specific time frames. How often has that happened? It's been in QST, Jim...I am sorry I don't recall teh specific circumstances, but a fellow made several changes under the SEQUENTIAL system and was called on the carpet for it. Who and when? How many changes? Are you sure FCC didn't have anither reason, such as someone trying to evade detection? Example: Someone gets booted off the local repeaters for acting inappropriately, then goes and gets a new callsign to hide his identity. Obviously not. He used the same name and addresses the FCC was obviously able to get ahold of him at. ?? I meant detection by other hams. Most hams just use their first name on the air - but I know a few who use their middle name. There's no rule that sez you have to use either. Suppose KC3@#$, "Bill" gets booted off the repeaters. Couple weeks go by, then KD3!$^, "Tom", shows up. Who is to know they are the same person without looking them up in the database, and discovering that they're both William Thomas Bfztsplk? Obviously Polish, ROTFL Then how do you account for guys with "longer" calls that manage to do pretty well in the contests, Jim? They'd do better with shorter calls. Look at the leaders and see how many have 2x3s compared to those with 1x2s. True...but almost every one of those "1 x 2" calls that hit the big time in every contest are megastations. I bet they'd do just as well signing "K4CAP". Part of being a megastation is going for every advantage. Including length of callsign. Oh well...How many "desireable" 3 calls are in FL, Jim? Quite a few! Snowbirds from here. If they are "snowbirds", then they still reside in taht area...just move for the weather. Some have residences both places. Others visit with friends or relatives up here in summer, then go south during the cold. Under your plan, they'd be forced to lose their call, or lie to the FCC. I don't think much of that either. There's a possibility of me moving to Michigan. I wouldn't want to give up N3KIP for some KI8@& call. I prefer a 1x3 to a 2x2, and I don't want to pay for a vanity call. "Free" to you. It still costs the FCC per-item processed. The cost is in the handling, data input, materials and postage. Which occur in all transactions. Which would be direcetly paid by the applicant if they wanted a call otehr than the 2 x 3 they were issued. Where's the extra cost? The computer system is set up to grab the next call in the sequential line automatically when a new license is issued, or when an upgrade occurs and the applicant requests it. One check box on the application. I said attach a copy to your original station documents. You'd still send it in, and the FCC could update their records. They just wouldn't necessarily sned out a new document with each and every modification. All that saves is the FCC having to print out and send a modified license. They'd still have to receive your letter, input the data, and update the database. With modern dataprocessing, having to do all that but not send a license saves less than a dollar. "Times" how many transactions a year...??? That's a LOT of "dollars", Jim! Not really. Look up how many modifications are done a year. Remember that a good number of them are upgrades. Let's say it takes 2 minutes for a quick clerk to do the inputing. A lot of it is online that doesn't require a clerk at all. I'll assume that on present GS scale they are making $10/hr. That's about .17/min, or .34. Postage, bulk rate, already costs them .30 each, so we are up to $0.60. I bet it's a safe bet that the actual document itself is worth another .25 to .30/piece. So that's up to $.90 per document. And we haven't even added in overhead...the computer itself...office costs, etc. Most of that cost is still incurred whether a modified license is mailed or not. If FCC really wanted to save a few admin pennies, they'd renew every nonvanity license upon modification. Doing so would eliminate renewal-only transactions. No arguement from me. It can't be more than a keystroke to do. I think they don't do it because of the vanity system. No, it's not. But under your system, it no longer matters where the licensee is. So let's stop issuing a "6" call to Californians and "0" to Minnesotans, 4 to Tennesseeans, etc...Just start at KC1AAA (or wherever they are in the current sequential system) and keep on going until they get to WZ1ZZZ. Then start with KD2AAA and go to WZ2ZZZ, etc etc etc until we get to WZ0ZZZ, regardless of whether they are in Bangor Maine or Irvine, California. It doesn't matter, right...??? Not really. Then WHAT'S your fuss over whether you have a 2 call or a three? =) The total effect on the ARS, 73 de Jim, N2EY |
"Dee D. Flint" wrote in
: "N2EY" wrote in message ... In article , "Dee D. Flint" writes: Even the 1x3s, of which there are 52,728 possible combinations per district, are no longer available for sequential issue. The "no longer available for sequential issue" thing is, I think, due solely to an FCC decision. IIRC, their computers are not set up to do it. Yet. Besides, it generates vanity revenue. No, it was not due to an FCC decision. They used them up. Figuratively speaking, I was there, as they say, at the point in time when they ran out. Sequentially available 1x3s ran out in most districts in '92, '93, or '94 (some districts were slower than others and some may have gone on slightly longer). My call is my original one issued in 1992 and as you can see from the fact that it is N8UZE that they were already close to the end of the 1x3s in district 8 by then. My daughter's call sign, issued in 1993, is N8ZNW. The pattern of issue was first to use W calls, then K calls, and finally N calls. Slightly off topic, 2x3 calls being issued at this time are still in the K sequence. For a while, I followed the call sign usage just out of curiosity to see when they would run out. The biggest reason that I did not change my call sign upon getting my Extra was that district 8 was out of 1x2 call signs by the time I passed my Extra test in late 1992 (upgraded license was issued in early 1993). I had no interest in Extra class call signs in the 2x1 or 2x2 format. Dee D. Flint, N8UZE In my case I didn't know whether I would get, say, WZ3Z or AA3AA. I particularly didn't want a 2x1, as they seem to me to be 'back-to-front'. A 2x2 would have been OK, but they are no shorter than a 1x3. A friend of mine, who upgraded at the same time, in fact got AA3BS. That could have been me. Everyone phoneticises his last two letters as 'Bovine Scatology'! 73 de Alun, N3KIP |
Subject: Who Can Have A US License? Sequential Calls?
From: "KØHB" Date: 11/26/2004 6:33 PM Central Standard Time Message-id: . net "N2EY" wrote writes: "N2EY" wrote Ah yes, "a boy and his radio", not a net-connected, cluster-spoon-fed, computer-dependent robo-station Can I use that description? No, because some W4 will 'remember' reading it first in CQ or QST and publicly smear your name as a plagiarist without first checking her facts. I've seen it happen. As it happens, I found the item I was looking for in QST...It was just a lot earlier than I thought...but I leave the apology stand. That time I was wrong. Most of the time the "smearing" your name gets is pretty well deserved, Hans. Sorry...it's true. Steve, K4YZ |
In article , Alun
writes: (N2EY) wrote in : No, I think the rules need to be changed. Specifically, someone who is neither a US citizen nor a resident of US territory should not be allowed to hold a permanent US ham license, nor to function as a VE. IMHO. That specific change would probably get through the lawyers. I can see a couple of downsides to it, FWIW. Firstly, VE teams serving Americans overseas could no longer make use of any locals as VEs. I don't see that as a downside; it's one of the main components of the idea! Maybe they don't anyway? Secondly, foreign-based DXpeditions to rare US islands would have to recite a portable call. Add a provision for temporary licenses to aliens if they don't want to do the / thing. They pay a fee, get a special event callsign for the particular possession, and when it's done the callsign goes back into the pool right away. Similar to what you described for your Irish license. A foreigner who holds dual licenses is not in the same situation. Granted. But he CAN be made to suffer the same penalty that US citizens have been How you gonna collect the NAL? As I said before, unless he has assets in the US, you're not. Point is, there was enough complaining to FCC about multiple choice code tests that they were eliminated. If there's enough complaining about nonresident aliens being VEs and holding permanent US licenses, those rules can change too. AFAIK, the NCVEC eliminated those tests, not the FCC Unless I misunderstood the Report and Order, FCC removed them. Consider what most countries outside the US do when an American wants to operate. They issue a license good for a specific short time, based on the valid US license. There's usually a fee in good old US dollars. American gets to operate from Lower Podunkia and everyone has a good time. Why can't we do the same thing? There are almost as many ways of doing this as there are countries. The UK has no reciprocal licences per se, only permanent or temporary licences. If you give a UK address you can get a permanent licence, which is the same licence you get for passing a test. If not, you get a temporary licence with a portable call. Either way there is a fee, and for the temporary licence you pay the regular annual fee for only six months. So if I ever get to the UK for a vacation, I can get a distinctive UK license based on my US license (no test)? For a while I held a second UK call (G0VUK) based on my US licence. However, since the code test was abolished my original call (G8VUK) has full operating privileges. Some countries issue visitor's licences with a distinctive call. For example, my Irish call is EI4VXI. The V is for visitor. It is free for upto a month, and costs progressively more for longer periods, and I can get the same call back on subsequent visits. So why can't the USA do something similar for legitimate visitors? I beleive that the latest ITU conference authorised calls with four call letters. That would make possible a visitor's call like, say, KH2VXYZ! I doubt that the FCC would be interested in administering this or collecting the money, so if it were done it would have to be done through the VE system. I can even envision that the FCC wouldn't have any record of these calls atall. They probably wouldn't fit in their database. Naw, just lump them in with special event callsigns. Perhaps the NCVEC could keep track of them? Just a thought. Amateurs getting licnesed today do not face the same conditions you and I faced 20-30 years ago, Jim. 37 years ago in my case. The new conditions are much easier. And nothing prevents us from making the process more challenging in order to meet the needs of Part 97. Sure it does. All the screaming that would result. Also FCC's reluctance to take back certain functions. Like collecting fees. Yup. New licensees would not face any revocation of service they previously enjoyed. Old licensees would keep their old calls. Big deal. It's a big deal if you're on the other side of that fence. Enough that the FCC has, on several occassions, demanded to know why a particular licensee made several license changes within specific time frames. How often has that happened? It's been in QST, Jim...I am sorry I don't recall teh specific circumstances, but a fellow made several changes under the SEQUENTIAL system and was called on the carpet for it. Who and when? How many changes? Hmm? Are you sure FCC didn't have anither reason, such as someone trying to evade detection? Example: Someone gets booted off the local repeaters for acting inappropriately, then goes and gets a new callsign to hide his identity. Obviously not. He used the same name and addresses the FCC was obviously able to get ahold of him at. ?? I meant detection by other hams. Most hams just use their first name on the air - but I know a few who use their middle name. There's no rule that sez you have to use either. Suppose KC3@#$, "Bill" gets booted off the repeaters. Couple weeks go by, then KD3!$^, "Tom", shows up. Who is to know they are the same person without looking them up in the database, and discovering that they're both William Thomas Bfztsplk? Obviously Polish, ROTFL No, it's an old pop culture reference. Al Capp's "Li'l Abner" Some have residences both places. Others visit with friends or relatives up here in summer, then go south during the cold. Under your plan, they'd be forced to lose their call, or lie to the FCC. I don't think much of that either. There's a possibility of me moving to Michigan. I wouldn't want to give up N3KIP for some KI8@& call. I prefer a 1x3 to a 2x2, and I don't want to pay for a vanity call. Well, there you have it. I consider myself lucky to have gotten a 1x2; 2x1s sound backwards to me. As in "where's the rest of it?" All this concern about callsigns isn't limited to hams. The BC folks have been at it for years, since certain callsigns are considered much more desirable than others in that service. Calls like KISS, WARM, WOW, WHY, WHAT, WHEN, etc. I recall reading that the original allocations of all-letters-begins-with-W-or-K callsigns were to ships. When a ship sank, its "unlucky" callsign would often not be reassigned to a new ship, and often wound up assigned to a shore or BC station. Anybody confirm this story? Personally, if radio saved a ship's crew, I'd consider that ship's callsign lucky! Oddly enough, I don't think any real BC station has ever held WKRP. 73 de Jim, N2EY |
"N2EY" wrote in message ... In article , Alun writes: (N2EY) wrote in : Point is, there was enough complaining to FCC about multiple choice code tests that they were eliminated. If there's enough complaining about nonresident aliens being VEs and holding permanent US licenses, those rules can change too. AFAIK, the NCVEC eliminated those tests, not the FCC Unless I misunderstood the Report and Order, FCC removed them. The FCC never specified the format of the code tests as administered by the VECs only the code speed. Initially some required solid copy, others had mutiple choice questions, and others had fill in the blanks. Eventually the council of VECs agreed upon using fill in the blank questions only with candidates also able to pass with solid copy if they did not get 7 out of 10 questions right. Dee D. Flint, N8UZE |
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I don't think much of that either. There's a possibility of me moving to Michigan. I wouldn't want to give up N3KIP for some KI8@& call. I prefer a 1x3 to a 2x2, and I don't want to pay for a vanity call. Well, there you have it. I consider myself lucky to have gotten a 1x2; 2x1s sound backwards to me. As in "where's the rest of it?" I couldn't agree more I couldn't agree less ......any call that starts with a N is bogus in my book ....those LETTERS belong on the tail of a 1905 Wright Flyer not flying through the sacred ether. I got my call after a few months of having my extra and it was granted in sequence ....... I was going to keep my WA3PPS but it just got too cumbersome. In all seriousness I could care less about who has what or whatever ...I just like the variety out there and am actually entertained by some of the really cumbersome CW calls out there. I rarely get on phone but I do get K13R from time to time from an old-timer .....good for a chuckle. I tell them the 13th call district is SW Pa. Now if I could only get up a decent antenna .....another story for another time. Take care guys .... God Bless ...... Tom Popovic KI3R Belle Vernon Pa. |
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