Michael Coslo wrote:
I felt kinda bad about being mean to Len,

When were you mean to Len, Mike?

Unless you count disagreeing with him and proving him wrong as "being
mean", you've been nothing but nice to him.

so I'll try to meet him
halfway with a Morse code topic.

His definition of meeting halfway is that you agree with him 100%.

So maybe we can ressurect this old one...

I hear lots of Hams declare that Morse code is a binary mode.

It is most certainly not.

Depends how you define "binary".

Let us look at the situation.

Is the Dit a "0"?

No.

Is the Dah a "1"?

No.

Is the space between characters a "0"? and the Dih a "1"? Oh wait,
what
is the Dah then? Oh, and what about the space between words?

Key up is "0". Key down is "1". Also known as "space" and "mark",
respectively.

It isn't binary,

Depends on how you define "binary".

and the way our noodles process it isn't binary.

Different subject.

It's not binary.

Most Morse operators with any skill (that excludes Len) process a
complete character as one "sound". "didahdidit" is recognized as "L",
in the same way that when you hear the word "cat", you think of the
animal. The Morse operator does not think in terms of dits and dahs any
more than a person thinks in terms of the consonant and vowel sounds
(phonemes) making up "cat".

Of course *really* skilled Morse ops hear entire words as units of
sound. And at some level, they begin to think in Morse, just as fluent
speakers of a language think in that language.
Of course Len wouldn't know about that...

73 de Jim, N2EY

wrote:

Key up is "0". Key down is "1". Also known as "space" and "mark",
respectively.

73 de Jim, N2EY

Odd, the old definition of Morse Code didn't use the terms "0" and "1",
nor "mark" and "space." All the timing was in terms of the length of a
single "dit." Hmmmm? Almost makes one think that Jim don't know Jack
about Morse Code. But he'll tell us otherwise.
Just more Miccollis revisionist history, I guess.

bb wrote:

wrote:


Key up is "0". Key down is "1". Also known as "space" and "mark",
respectively.

73 de Jim, N2EY


Odd, the old definition of Morse Code didn't use the terms "0" and "1",
nor "mark" and "space." All the timing was in terms of the length of a
single "dit."

As far as I know, Morse code did not "become digital" until some people
wanted to make it look as if it was more advanced than it is. Until then
it was as you describe.

- Mike KB3EIA -

In article ,
Michael Coslo wrote:

| Odd, the old definition of Morse Code didn't use the terms "0" and "1",
| nor "mark" and "space." All the timing was in terms of the length of a
| single "dit."
|
| As far as I know, Morse code did not "become digital" until some people
| wanted to make it look as if it was more advanced than it is. Until then
| it was as you describe.

You're confusing your terms now. Digital and binary are related, but
not the same.

This defintion of `digital data'

http://www.answers.com/main/ntquery?...87736&method=6

definately fits Morse code, both at the `on' and `off' level and at
the `dit' `dah' `short space' `medium space' `long space' level.

Digital also means `having to do with fingers', and Morse code is
usually sent using one's fingers ...

Of course, the terms digital and binary didn't really become commonly
used until computers did. Considering that Morse code was born in
1832 or so, it's not surprising that people weren't thinking of it in
computer terms for a while.

Ultimately, terms are getting confused all over the place. The terms
CW and Morse code are used interchangably, when it's really more
accurate to say that CW is to Morse code as RTTY is to Baudot. But
ultimately it doesn't matter, because however you define it, people
use it to talk to each other and it works.

--
Doug McLaren, , AD5RH
This is a test of the emergency .signature program. This is only a test.

wrote:

Michael Coslo wrote:

I felt kinda bad about being mean to Len,


When were you mean to Len, Mike?

Unless you count disagreeing with him and proving him wrong as "being
mean", you've been nothing but nice to him.

Well, he probably thinks so!


so I'll try to meet him
halfway with a Morse code topic.


His definition of meeting halfway is that you agree with him 100%.

That is certainly possible...


So maybe we can ressurect this old one...

I hear lots of Hams declare that Morse code is a binary mode.

It is most certainly not.


Depends how you define "binary".

One state equals "0" or "off".
The other state equals "1" or "on".


Let us look at the situation.

Is the Dit a "0"?


No.


Is the Dah a "1"?


No.

Is the space between characters a "0"? and the Dih a "1"? Oh wait,
what is the Dah then? Oh, and what about the space between words?


Key up is "0". Key down is "1". Also known as "space" and "mark",
respectively.

Unfortunately, there are two separate "1" states, and the zero state is
not a constant thing.

There is the matter of time. A zero might me the space between letters,
or one half of a dit. It might also mean the space between words. All
different things.

That Morse code can be turned into binary is not at argument here. It
obviously can, just as images, emails and everything else we do on the
computer. Are they binary because someone has written a program to turn
them into strings of 1's and 0's?

It isn't binary,


Depends on how you define "binary".


and the way our noodles process it isn't binary.


Different subject.

Not really. If you look at the string of 1's and 0's that Doug posted
as the binary result of my hypothetical CQ, is that something that you
would recognize as that CQ? That string IS binary.

Why does the - and . method of typing out the code convey the
information? the dashes and the spaces convey time information to the
person looking at them. I'm counting more than two states here.


It's not binary.


Most Morse operators with any skill (that excludes Len) process a
complete character as one "sound". "didahdidit" is recognized as "L",
in the same way that when you hear the word "cat", you think of the
animal. The Morse operator does not think in terms of dits and dahs any
more than a person thinks in terms of the consonant and vowel sounds
(phonemes) making up "cat".

Of course *really* skilled Morse ops hear entire words as units of
sound. And at some level, they begin to think in Morse, just as fluent
speakers of a language think in that language.
Of course Len wouldn't know about that...

73 de Jim, N2EY

- Mike KB3EIA -

In article ,
Mike Coslo wrote:

| Key up is "0". Key down is "1". Also known as "space" and "mark",
| respectively.
|
| Unfortunately, there are two separate "1" states, and the zero state is
| not a constant thing.

Your key is either up or down. There is no in between. That alone is
enough to say `binary'.

As for `two seperate 1 states', it's just that one is one 1 state, and
the other is 3 1 states in a row.

| There is the matter of time. A zero might me the space between
| letters, or one half of a dit. It might also mean the space between
| words. All different things.

It's the number of zeros in a row that signifies that.

| That Morse code can be turned into binary is not at argument here. It
| obviously can, just as images, emails and everything else we do on the
| computer.

An image or file on your computer is already binary, pretty much by
definition. But the image you see out your window is not -- it's
analog, and while you can approximate this image with a binary stream,
you can never match it exactly.

| Not really. If you look at the string of 1's and 0's that Doug posted
| as the binary result of my hypothetical CQ, is that something that you
| would recognize as that CQ?

If you played it audibly, yes, you would notice it as a perfectly
timed morse code CQ (my mistake with the C not withstanding.)

Visually, it's not the format that people are used to seeing, so they
don't recognize it at first. Not surprising.

| Why does the - and . method of typing out the code convey the
| information? the dashes and the spaces convey time information to the
| person looking at them. I'm counting more than two states here.

Of course, Morse code is sent as a intermittent tone, RF carrier, or
light. It's *not* sent with strings of periods, dashes and spaces --
that's just a simple way of writing it on paper.

When you look at the tone, carrier or light, the item is either there,
or it's not. Two states. Binary. This is not something that can be
rationally denied.

However, groups of these two states are combined into five states --
dit, dah, intra-character spaces, intra-word spaces and intra-sentence
spaces. This can't really be denied either, and this is how people
generally think of Morse code -- dits and dahs.

This is where the argument lies -- the `I see two states -- binary!'
people look at the first part -- the carrier itself. The `It's not
binary! It's dits and dahs and spaces' people are looking at what the
combinations of the binary states give them, and that's how humans
generally view it.. Both views are correct, so a claim that one view
is wrong is incorrect.

Morse code gives you a way of turning a series of binary states (on or
off) into text. ASCII, EBCDIC, BAUDOT, UTF-8 and oodles of others do
the same thing. Morse code is just as `binary' as they are, but it
just happens to be more suited to human use.

Ultimately, it's a pointless argument, because whatever Morse code is
and is not, people use it, and they agree on what sequences indicate
what letters (of course, this wasn't always the case, but that's
another story), and that's pretty much all that's needed for it to
work, and so on that note I'll attempt to remove myself from the
discussion.

--
Doug McLaren,
Math illiteracy affects 8 out of every 5 people.

Doug McLaren wrote:

In article ,
Mike Coslo wrote:

| Key up is "0". Key down is "1". Also known as "space" and "mark",
| respectively.
|
| Unfortunately, there are two separate "1" states, and the zero state is
| not a constant thing.

Your key is either up or down. There is no in between. That alone is
enough to say `binary'.

no more than the switch on my furnace makes my furnace digital.

As for `two seperate 1 states', it's just that one is one 1 state, and
the other is 3 1 states in a row.

Right, it is translated.

| There is the matter of time. A zero might me the space between
| letters, or one half of a dit. It might also mean the space between
| words. All different things.

It's the number of zeros in a row that signifies that.

In the translation. I don't read morse code that way while I'm
listening. The computer "listens" that way.

| That Morse code can be turned into binary is not at argument here. It
| obviously can, just as images, emails and everything else we do on the
| computer.

An image or file on your computer is already binary, pretty much by
definition. But the image you see out your window is not -- it's
analog, and while you can approximate this image with a binary stream,
you can never match it exactly.

| Not really. If you look at the string of 1's and 0's that Doug posted
| as the binary result of my hypothetical CQ, is that something that you
| would recognize as that CQ?

If you played it audibly, yes, you would notice it as a perfectly
timed morse code CQ (my mistake with the C not withstanding.)

Visually, it's not the format that people are used to seeing, so they
don't recognize it at first. Not surprising.

| Why does the - and . method of typing out the code convey the
| information? the dashes and the spaces convey time information to the
| person looking at them. I'm counting more than two states here.

Of course, Morse code is sent as a intermittent tone, RF carrier, or
light. It's *not* sent with strings of periods, dashes and spaces --
that's just a simple way of writing it on paper.

When you look at the tone, carrier or light, the item is either there,
or it's not. Two states. Binary. This is not something that can be
rationally denied.

Two states of different length. The radio does not send 0's. It simply
sits there waiting for the key so it can send a carrier of differing
lengths of time.

However, groups of these two states are combined into five states --
dit, dah, intra-character spaces, intra-word spaces and intra-sentence
spaces. This can't really be denied either, and this is how people
generally think of Morse code -- dits and dahs.

This is where the argument lies -- the `I see two states -- binary!'
people look at the first part -- the carrier itself. The `It's not
binary! It's dits and dahs and spaces' people are looking at what the
combinations of the binary states give them, and that's how humans
generally view it.. Both views are correct, so a claim that one view
is wrong is incorrect.

Morse code gives you a way of turning a series of binary states (on or
off) into text. ASCII, EBCDIC, BAUDOT, UTF-8 and oodles of others do
the same thing. Morse code is just as `binary' as they are, but it
just happens to be more suited to human use.

Ultimately, it's a pointless argument, because whatever Morse code is
and is not, people use it, and they agree on what sequences indicate
what letters (of course, this wasn't always the case, but that's
another story), and that's pretty much all that's needed for it to
work, and so on that note I'll attempt to remove myself from the
discussion.

- Mike KB3EIA -

In article , Mike Coslo
writes:

wrote:

Michael Coslo wrote:

I felt kinda bad about being mean to Len,


When were you mean to Len, Mike?

Unless you count disagreeing with him and proving him wrong as "being
mean", you've been nothing but nice to him.

Well, he probably thinks so!

Mike Deignan had him pegged. Len's really ticked that somewhere, out there,
somebody is having fun with ham radio.

so I'll try to meet him
halfway with a Morse code topic.

His definition of meeting halfway is that you agree with him 100%.

That is certainly possible...

It's self-evident...

So maybe we can ressurect this old one...

I hear lots of Hams declare that Morse code is a binary mode.

It is most certainly not.

Depends how you define "binary".

One state equals "0" or "off".
The other state equals "1" or "on".

You have to define "state". If "key up" and "key down" are the states, it's
binary. Time isn't the factor you make it - look at how Baudot works.

Let us look at the situation.

Is the Dit a "0"?

No.

Is the Dah a "1"?

No.

Is the space between characters a "0"? and the Dih a "1"? Oh wait,
what is the Dah then? Oh, and what about the space between words?

Key up is "0". Key down is "1". Also known as "space" and "mark",
respectively.

Unfortunately, there are two separate "1" states, and the zero state is
not a constant thing.

Doesn't have to be. It's a time code.

There is the matter of time. A zero might me the space between letters,
or one half of a dit. It might also mean the space between words. All
different things.

No. The characters are built from the basic elements, which are key up and key
down, just like, say, Baudot RTTY.

That Morse code can be turned into binary is not at argument here. It
obviously can, just as images, emails and everything else we do on the
computer. Are they binary because someone has written a program to turn
them into strings of 1's and 0's?

Their basic transmission form is binary, same as Morse.

A non-binary code is one that has more than two *transmission* states, like
QPSK. Which is typically implemented as 0, 90, 180 and 270 degrees shift. Four
transmission states rather than two.

It isn't binary,

Depends on how you define "binary".

and the way our noodles process it isn't binary.

Different subject.

Not really. If you look at the string of 1's and 0's that Doug posted
as the binary result of my hypothetical CQ, is that something that you
would recognize as that CQ? That string IS binary.

I would recognize it easily.

Why does the - and . method of typing out the code convey the
information? the dashes and the spaces convey time information to the
person looking at them. I'm counting more than two states here.

It's not the simplest way, though. It shows the time differently.

It's not binary.

Most Morse operators with any skill (that excludes Len) process a
complete character as one "sound". "didahdidit" is recognized as "L",
in the same way that when you hear the word "cat", you think of the
animal. The Morse operator does not think in terms of dits and dahs any
more than a person thinks in terms of the consonant and vowel sounds
(phonemes) making up "cat".

Of course *really* skilled Morse ops hear entire words as units of
sound. And at some level, they begin to think in Morse, just as fluent
speakers of a language think in that language.
Of course Len wouldn't know about that...

The big question is: what does it matter if Morse is binary or not?

73 de Jim, N2EY

N2EY wrote:
In article , Mike Coslo
writes:

wrote:

Michael Coslo wrote:

I felt kinda bad about being mean to Len,


When were you mean to Len, Mike?

Unless you count disagreeing with him and proving him wrong as
"being
mean", you've been nothing but nice to him.

Well, he probably thinks so!

Mike Deignan had him pegged. Len's really ticked that somewhere, out
there,
somebody is having fun with ham radio.

so I'll try to meet him
halfway with a Morse code topic.

His definition of meeting halfway is that you agree with him 100%.

That is certainly possible...

It's self-evident...

So maybe we can ressurect this old one...

I hear lots of Hams declare that Morse code is a binary mode.

It is most certainly not.

Depends how you define "binary".

One state equals "0" or "off".
The other state equals "1" or "on".

You have to define "state". If "key up" and "key down" are the
states, it's
binary. Time isn't the factor you make it - look at how Baudot works.


Let us look at the situation.

Is the Dit a "0"?

No.

Is the Dah a "1"?

No.

Is the space between characters a "0"? and the Dih a "1"? Oh wait,
what is the Dah then? Oh, and what about the space between words?

Key up is "0". Key down is "1". Also known as "space" and "mark",
respectively.

Unfortunately, there are two separate "1" states, and the zero state
is
not a constant thing.

Doesn't have to be. It's a time code.

There is the matter of time. A zero might me the space between
letters,
or one half of a dit. It might also mean the space between words.
All
different things.

No. The characters are built from the basic elements, which are key
up and key
down, just like, say, Baudot RTTY.

That Morse code can be turned into binary is not at argument here.
It
obviously can, just as images, emails and everything else we do on
the
computer. Are they binary because someone has written a program to
turn
them into strings of 1's and 0's?

Their basic transmission form is binary, same as Morse.

A non-binary code is one that has more than two *transmission*
states, like
QPSK. Which is typically implemented as 0, 90, 180 and 270 degrees
shift. Four
transmission states rather than two.

It isn't binary,

Depends on how you define "binary".

and the way our noodles process it isn't binary.

Different subject.

Not really. If you look at the string of 1's and 0's that Doug
posted
as the binary result of my hypothetical CQ, is that something that
you
would recognize as that CQ? That string IS binary.

I would recognize it easily.

Why does the - and . method of typing out the code convey the
information? the dashes and the spaces convey time information to
the
person looking at them. I'm counting more than two states here.

It's not the simplest way, though. It shows the time differently.

It's not binary.

Most Morse operators with any skill (that excludes Len) process a
complete character as one "sound". "didahdidit" is recognized as
"L",
in the same way that when you hear the word "cat", you think of
the
animal. The Morse operator does not think in terms of dits and
dahs any
more than a person thinks in terms of the consonant and vowel
sounds
(phonemes) making up "cat".

Of course *really* skilled Morse ops hear entire words as units of
sound. And at some level, they begin to think in Morse, just as
fluent
speakers of a language think in that language.
Of course Len wouldn't know about that...

The big question is: what does it matter if Morse is binary or not?

. . . finally . . of course not. But you already knew that . .

73 de Jim, N2EY

w3rv

In article .com,
writes:

The big question is: what does it matter if Morse is binary or not?

. . . finally . . of course not. But you already knew that . .

Quite true. The coslonaut (reaching for the threashold of space
through surplus helium balloons) originally posted a troll message
to liven up this "members-only" chat room cum group blog.

Webster's New World Compact School and Office Dictionary
(1989) has the definition of BINARY as following:

"1. Made up of two parts: double 2. designating or of a number
system in which the base used is two, each number being
expressed by using only two digits, specifically 1 and 0."

As used in all electronics, the first definition is used with an
emphasis on STATE of something, such as on or off, there or
not there. Two-state.

In on-off keying (OOK) CW the carrier is either present or not
there. Two states.

In PSK morse code, the carrier is either phase-shifted or not
phase-shifted. Two states.

In MCW the tone is either there or not there. Two states.

In the original Morse-Vail Telegraph System (beginning 1844),
there was either current flowing in the wire lines or not flowing.
Two states.

In later "polar keying" telegraphy, the current was either flowing
in one direction or flowing in the opposite direction. Two states.
However, such "polar keying" (originally "polarized keying"), those
are implemented as TRINARY since there is the state where no
current is flowing in the loop.

It is not known if Reggie Fessenden invented polarized keying in
1900 (Rev. Jimmie Who will be sure to sermonize on that later),
but polar keying was often used in old teleprinter wired systems.

Morse code is definitely BINARY. Binary does not refer to the
time or duration of maintaining either of two states.

None of that really matters to any policy discussions. It matters
greatly to those chat-roomers or morse-bloggers who MUST fill
space with all kinds of miscellaneous dreck subjects reveling in
the sanctity, efficacy, nobility of an archaic communications
system coming up on its 161st anniversary of existance. It's so
damn good that every other communications service uses morse
code, right? :-)

Meanwhile, let's all give hearty congratulations to the coslonaut
for having achieved a 100,000 foot attitude!