Mr. Obvious wrote:
At this point it's still a solution looking for a problem.

Seriously.

MSYS, FBB and several other radio-based BBS systems will do all of
what
you described. With MSYS, you have the ability to serve content from
callbook CDs or other mounted media - so a "Sale" or "Mods" directory
could be readily served up.

MSYS, and FBB are good programs...old, but good, however, compared to
today software, they are outdated, and not USER FRIENDLY.

"...It would be a network that only amatuer would be able to use
(like Echolink)..."

Who is going to develop this app? Or is there one currently
available?
How do you verify that -only amateur radio operators- can access the
I-net sites? IOW, what does your security model look like? Which
parts
of the path are to be encrypted (so as to protect login credentials,
for example) and by what means will the encryption be accomplished?

There is a lot of P2P software that is out there that is "Open Source"
Software, meaning you can downloaded a uncompiled version and program
it the way you want. So you can create filters so certain files can't
go through the system like MPEGS, and AVI files (movie files) or MP3
(Music files) I would suggest if you intrested in it to get some books
on P2P. The network would be set up like this: a Users lets say K4YZ
clicks on a icon of the P2P SOFWARE lets say it's called AMP2PNet, the
software would connect him to the network via a radio node. The P2P
nodes on the internet would be set up with either IP address or "web
address" (like what echolink has) and these would only be known to the
program and the system operator. Only amateur would only be able to
connect to this network via radio, all of the "Super Nodes" which are
on the web would be encrypted. So in other words if you wanted to uses
the system you would have to get on packet. The software would only be
handed out to amateurs and would have a callsign varifcation system.
also logging into the network you would be using your callsign to log
in (this again is only allowed over the radio)


I know a bit about this area, and can unequivocally say thay security
in such a system would not be trivial. Nor would the potential for
abuse, especially if there is any type of connection to it that can
directly be reached through the Internet. Choose your operating
system
(platform) unwisely and the headaches become even bigger.

Like I stated above the only way you could log into this system would
be over radio. The Super nodes which are on the internet are encrypted
and the internet side is mainly a "user Backbone system" so users can
connect via 2 meter---over the internet-----to another user on the
radio.

Todd N9OGL

This is an "idea"...NOT an "invention". Guess they didn't teach
you the difference in college there, Toddie-boy! Get your money back,

quick!



It's an idea i'm working on.....I right now working on the software,
but my skills in C++ / Java Script isn't very good so I'm going to
school to learn. but anyone who wishes to come up with some software
before me can do so.....and Oh, You have to have Idea before you come
up with an invention.....or perhaps they did teach you that down south.


And who the heck WANTS a "bottlenecked" communications
gateway...?!?!

It really don't have to be "bottlenecked" I know that there is some
WI-FI systems that are out there that run in our ham bands that
transmit wireless data as high as 10Mb so it can be "bottlenecked" on 2
meters or not "bottlenecked" at those higher frequencies.

Todd N9OGL

N9OGL wrote:

Like I stated above the only way you could log into this system would
be over radio.

Which means nothing.

The Super nodes which are on the internet are encrypted
and the internet side is mainly a "user Backbone system" so users can
connect via 2 meter---over the internet-----to another user on the
radio.

Someone slap that idiot and tell him it's already been done.

Sheeeeesh.

Steve, K4YZ

"K4YZ" wrote in message
ps.com...

N9OGL wrote:

Like I stated above the only way you could log into this system would
be over radio.

Which means nothing.

The Super nodes which are on the internet are encrypted
and the internet side is mainly a "user Backbone system" so users can
connect via 2 meter---over the internet-----to another user on the
radio.

Someone slap that idiot and tell him it's already been done.

Sheeeeesh.

Steve, K4YZ




When is the idiot k4yz going to post proof that k1man was cited
by the commission?

Lloyd wrote:
"K4YZ" wrote in message
ps.com...

N9OGL wrote:

Like I stated above the only way you could log into this system
would
be over radio.

Which means nothing.

The Super nodes which are on the internet are encrypted
and the internet side is mainly a "user Backbone system" so users
can
connect via 2 meter---over the internet-----to another user on the
radio.

Someone slap that idiot and tell him it's already been done.

Sheeeeesh.

When is the idiot k4yz going to post proof that k1man was cited
by the commission?

Done deal. A simple Google search.

I wonder if that idiot LLoydie will apologize or snivvel out.

I vote on the snivvelling.

Steve, K4YZ

We're still talking about peer-to-peer software, right?

Which leads to my next question: Where in the Amateur Packet Radio
service is there a need to transfer files in such a manner?
Peer-to-peer software was created to facilitate the transfer of FILES.
The current iterations of most popular BBS software, on the other hand,
can transfer such things as text bulletins, sale ads and so forth just
fine.

"...There is a lot of P2P software that is out there that is "Open
Source"
Software, meaning you can downloaded a uncompiled version and program
it the way you want. So you can create filters so certain files can't
go through the system like MPEGS, and AVI files (movie files) or MP3
(Music files) I would suggest if you intrested in it to get some books
on P2P..."

(I just -might- know a little more than you think I do about this
subject...but that's another discussion for another thread; another
time.)

Back to my original thought: How does the introduction of the Internet
into a ham-to-ham virtual circuit benefit -RADIO- in any way, shape or
form?

I take it that you have never run a packet BBS, correct?

Are you familiar with the file-splitting and transmission capabilities
of various existing user-mode software? Joe wants to share a new
program with Ralph, so he splits it and uploads it to the local packet
BBS, where Ralph downloads it. Acceptable thus far, right? It isn't
when the program in question is copyrighted; we'll forego the file size
limitations of the current RADIO-based network for purposes of this
discussion. Tracking these uploads are a headache that most SysOps will
gladly do without, especially if that content will land you in legal
hot water.

Further, a number of PBBS SysOps incorporated I-net-based forwarding of
traffic years back. A vast amount of non-ham-related 3rd-party traffic
began to filter into the packet network as a result; along the circuits
were several countries whose 3rd-party traffic laws were different than
those of the U.S. Many nights were spent writing filters to keep the
U.S.-based systems in compliance...and a system such as you propose
would be subject to the same set of dynamics, if it was indeed
multinational.

"....Like I stated above the only way you could log into this system
would
be over radio. The Super nodes which are on the internet are encrypted
and the internet side is mainly a "user Backbone system" so users can
connect via 2 meter---over the internet-----to another user on the
radio..."

What will all this effort net us? You're still limited by the
capabilites of the end-users. I don't care if your I-net circuit
consists of gigabit fiberlink; if Joe and Ralph are running 1200bps
modems at their end, you're going to realize data transfer rates of no
faster than 1200bps.

The current system, as is designed and implemented, works fine. Write a
host mode program with a nice, pretty front end and you might sell it
to people. Incorporating P2P technology into said program is - as I've
stated before - a solution to a problem which simply doesn't exist.

Mr. Obvious wrote:
We're still talking about peer-to-peer software, right?

Which leads to my next question: Where in the Amateur Packet Radio
service is there a need to transfer files in such a manner?
Peer-to-peer software was created to facilitate the transfer of
FILES.
The current iterations of most popular BBS software, on the other
hand,
can transfer such things as text bulletins, sale ads and so forth
just
fine.


Well, like i said, MSYS and FBB are good programs but they are old and
there is software out there that is more "user friendly" amateur only
have to change the coding in them to work for ham radio. I'm not
suggestion that this be the "National" or "International" standard I'm
only suggesting this as an "alternative" to what is being used now.


"...There is a lot of P2P software that is out there that is "Open
Source"
Software, meaning you can downloaded a uncompiled version and program
it the way you want. So you can create filters so certain files can't
go through the system like MPEGS, and AVI files (movie files) or MP3
(Music files) I would suggest if you intrested in it to get some
books
on P2P..."

(I just -might- know a little more than you think I do about this
subject...but that's another discussion for another thread; another
time.)

Back to my original thought: How does the introduction of the
Internet
into a ham-to-ham virtual circuit benefit -RADIO- in any way, shape
or
form?
Look at Echolink, people still use HF but there's also echolink, as a
alternative. We uses to have a guy on my repeater from California who
would connect to my repeater through echolink, Because the nursing home
he was staying in wouldn't let him put up any antenna, thus that was an
alternative means to use amateur radio. This system would "benefit"
radio as and alternative to the normal 1200 baud packet.

I take it that you have never run a packet BBS, correct?

I've ran both MSYS and FBB for four years on two computers. I was big
in packet from 1992 to 1997/1998


Are you familiar with the file-splitting and transmission
capabilities
of various existing user-mode software? Joe wants to share a new
program with Ralph, so he splits it and uploads it to the local
packet
BBS, where Ralph downloads it. Acceptable thus far, right? It isn't
when the program in question is copyrighted; we'll forego the file
size
limitations of the current RADIO-based network for purposes of this
discussion. Tracking these uploads are a headache that most SysOps
will
gladly do without, especially if that content will land you in legal
hot water.

Well the reason I brought up the file size deal is; for BIG files even
on the internet through P2P takes a long time even with high speed DSL
it still takes a while. on this system we really don't want people
tighen yp the frequency because he's trying to download a 700 MB file
(like a Movie) The filter system which would block these "large" would
be in the software and would be unchangable.

Further, a number of PBBS SysOps incorporated I-net-based forwarding
of
traffic years back. A vast amount of non-ham-related 3rd-party
traffic
began to filter into the packet network as a result; along the
circuits
were several countries whose 3rd-party traffic laws were different
than
those of the U.S. Many nights were spent writing filters to keep the
U.S.-based systems in compliance...and a system such as you propose
would be subject to the same set of dynamics, if it was indeed
multinational.

That's were hams would have to be the network both on the radio, and on
the internet from scratch. again the only ones allowed to use the
software and the network would be the amateur radio operators. I'm only
one amateur, but I believe that an amateur radio station is responsible
for their what content they spew out and if they violate any laws it
will be easy to track down because they will be using their callsign. I
would also like to point out that federal law does not ban this type of
programs on the radio; amateurs are allowed to experiment and no
offense but it seems to me that you wan to keep the old system and
don't want any new ideas or programs which would conflict with the
status quo...or maybe i'm reading you wrong. but just remember that no
system is fail proof.


"....Like I stated above the only way you could log into this system
would
be over radio. The Super nodes which are on the internet are
encrypted
and the internet side is mainly a "user Backbone system" so users can
connect via 2 meter---over the internet-----to another user on the
radio..."

What will all this effort net us? You're still limited by the
capabilites of the end-users. I don't care if your I-net circuit
consists of gigabit fiberlink; if Joe and Ralph are running 1200bps
modems at their end, you're going to realize data transfer rates of
no
faster than 1200bps.

it would be 1200 baud on 2 meters but amateurs still have I believe 2.4
GHz and some of that wireless stuff will go as high as 10Mbps which
would be better because it would remove the bottleneck.

The current system, as is designed and implemented, works fine. Write
a
host mode program with a nice, pretty front end and you might sell it
to people. Incorporating P2P technology into said program is - as
I've
stated before - a solution to a problem which simply doesn't exist.

well, like i said it seems to me your like these guy on here....you
don't want change....and like I stated in a previous thread without
change ham radio will not grow.


Todd N9OGL

Oh, many of us WANT change...but not at the expense of the -RADIO-
portion of the hobby. Internet =! Radio. That fact has been pointed out
numerous times by those who design, maintain and operate the existing
packet radio network.

Do amateur radio operators need a high-speed packet-radio
infrastructure? Probably. Moreover, one can be built to exclusively
utilize RF as its transport mechanism; the Internet need not enter into
the picture whatsoever.

Once it's built and in place, the question arises: What to do with this
network? 10MBPS or higher would give excellent throughput for
high-volume traffic forwarding...which is about all you're going to be
able to -legally- do with it. (See previous remarks copyrighted
software, et al. The sentiment of most SysOps involved will be: It
ain't passing through my station. Period. ANY file other than
plaintext, that is...and rightly so.)

" That's were hams would have to be the network both on the radio, and
on
the internet from scratch. again the only ones allowed to use the
software and the network would be the amateur radio operators."

Again - how will you control access to this system? There's also the
matter of network security - put such a "node" on the Internet and I
guarantee that it will be hacked as soon a vulnerability with the
system is found.

"The filter system which would block these "large" would be in the
software and would be unchangable. "

Would you filter based on size alone? Actual content (type) of the
files? MD5 hash? I (and every other comptuer-savvy individual on the
planet) can easily bypass any of these schemes by manipulating the
files in certain ways...if the filtering is done via database, it would
be enormous and a true PITA to keep up to date. Thus, it would be
dropped in short order.

Looking at the whole proposal from a great height, it closely resembles
the existing AirMail/SailMail PACTOR systems...which operate under an
entirely different set of rules and regulations than does amateur radio.

N9OGL wrote:

The current system, as is designed and implemented, works fine.
Write
a
host mode program with a nice, pretty front end and you might sell
it
to people. Incorporating P2P technology into said program is - as
I've
stated before - a solution to a problem which simply doesn't exist.

well, like i said it seems to me your like these guy on here....you
don't want change....and like I stated in a previous thread without
change ham radio will not grow.

Amateur Radio is growing steadily...Without trying to immplement a
messaging system that is three generations old.

JUST like Lennie...So self impressed with your own "genius" that
you can't realize that you've just reinvented the wheel.

Steve, K4YZ

Here's a thread which describes quite succintly why the Internet and
"Ham Radio" should maintain some degree of separation, especially where
the transferral of binary files is concerned...

http://www.qrz.com/ib-bin/ikonboard....ST;f=7;t=85897