From: "K=D8=88B" on Thurs,Apr 14 2005 7:18 am

"K4YZ" wrote in message
oups.com...

Didn't Hans put that well into the 70's for the Navy?

No, Hans didn't.

The last significant use of Morse in the Navy was in the late
50's/early 60's.
This usage was by small-boys, DD and smaller, on "fox" broadcasts and
"A1"
ship/shore circuits.

Both uses ended with fleetwide deployment of Jason and Orestes
circuits in the
early 60's. Morse training for general duty Navy RM's ceased at the
same time,
and Morse operator became a specialized NEC (MOS to you grunts) held
by only a
few sailors, mostly in SPECOM branches (intercept operators, etc.).

The single operational Morse use which survived was the VLF SSBN
transmissions
(two transmitters, one Cutler, ME and the other at Jim Creek, WA).
That was a
simple slow-speed beaconing system which notified boomers to pop up
their
satcomm antennas for the actual communications.

73, de Hans, K0HB
Master Chief Radioman, US Navy

Thank you for factual corroboration, Hans.

As far as I know now, the VLF stations evolved into ELF
but at different locations. According to a USN Fact
Sheet those locations are at Clam Lake, WI, in the
Chequamegon National Forest (operational since 1985)
and Republic, MI (operational since 1989). The Republic
station is synchronized in time with Clam Lake, all
under operational control of NCTAMS LANT headquarters
at Norfolk, VA. Their transmission protocol is "Deep
Black" slow-speed data and the Boomers' (and Shark's)
electronics rooms (what used to be a tiny "radio room"
cubicle in WW2 boats) have "Black" ELF receivers always
on-line (as are their automatic decoders) for Alerts.
For an illustration of a Boomer electronics room, go
to the www.fas.org site and search down through a
maze of internal links to USN stuff; take info there
as old and not containing all the juicy details but has
the appearance of unclassified USN documents.

My nephew-in-law was an electrician's mate on a shark,
involved with reactor power plants, not radio. All he
said about his shark boat's electronics room was "we
couldn't hang around in there." :-) There was no such
thing as a "nuclear boat/ship" in Canada or any other
Navy during WW2. The only encryption used by the USA
(and Canada as well as the UK) was the "Sigaba" as shown
on the USS Pampanito floating museum and at the NSA
on-line Museum. The "Sigaba" system (TTY), upgraded
to post-WW2 standards was severely compromised by the
capture of the USS Pueblo off the North Korean coast in
1968. The replacement system was compromised by CWO
Walker who was convicted of espionage and is serving a
federal life term. The present encryption methods are
apparently two generations later than the Walker-
compromised crypto systems...and quite secure.

The original "Sigaba" on-line TTY crypto terminal was
first installed in the 1940s and used to relay intercepts
of the infamous "14-part" diplomatic message of Japan
that was supposed to be the formal start of the Japanese
declaration of a state of war. "Sigaba" was later used
to coordinate USN fleet movements to enable the success
of the Battle of Midway. That TTY encryption was never
compromised through intercepts. It was compromised by
actual capture of later-generation hardware on the USS
Pueblo.

The "Sigaba" encryption looked like severely distorted
TTY to any standard, non-crypto TTY terminal, totally
unreadable. The Far East Command Hq (Pershing Heights,
Tokyo, Japan) had their crypto room in the sub-sub-
basement of the main Hq building, the former Japanese
War Ministry Hq. The post-WW2 improved "Sigaba" (known
by various other names) was used by US Army Field Radio
units in "Angry-26" huts during the Korean War. A few
M-209 Code Coverters (WW2 non-electric devices in small
cases of the portable typewriter kind) were used in the
field in Korea for small-radio encryption but that ceased
by the time of the active phase beginning in Vietnam.

By interviews and other correspondence, the U.S. Army
maintained morsemanship as a requisite for Field Radio
MOSs ("NEC" to swabbies?) up to about 1972. USA had
several different communications MOSs then, especially
in TTY over various systems and including the first of
the military satellite communications links. However,
tactical use of morse code in the Army was essentially
nil at that time. Encrypted voice in the field was
first tried operationally during the Vietnam War over
the PRC-25s and PRC-77s through peripheral boxes. Such
is now easily selectable by front panel controls on the
SINCGARS manpack and vehicular sets (COMSEC is built-in
to nearly every radio now, including military HTs).
During the First Gulf War, Special Forces had slightly
old "threes" having 1200 BPS "chiclet" keyboards and
LCD text display working on the military aviation band
of 225-400 MHz. The mil av band was also relayed by
mil satellites as well as "Joint Stars" relay aircraft.
Moderate crypto system built-in on the "threes." There
was no movie-style "behind enemy lines" use of morse
in the 1990-1991 period...or afterwards.

wrote:
From: "K=D8=88B" on Thurs,Apr 14 2005 7:18 am

"K4YZ" wrote in message
oups.com...

Didn't Hans put that well into the 70's for the Navy?

No, Hans didn't.

The last significant use of Morse in the Navy was in the late
50's/early 60's.
This usage was by small-boys, DD and smaller, on "fox" broadcasts
and
"A1"
ship/shore circuits.

Both uses ended with fleetwide deployment of Jason and Orestes
circuits in the
early 60's. Morse training for general duty Navy RM's ceased at the
same time,
and Morse operator became a specialized NEC (MOS to you grunts) held
by only a
few sailors, mostly in SPECOM branches (intercept operators, etc.).

The single operational Morse use which survived was the VLF SSBN
transmissions
(two transmitters, one Cutler, ME and the other at Jim Creek, WA).
That was a
simple slow-speed beaconing system which notified boomers to pop up
their
satcomm antennas for the actual communications.

73, de Hans, K0HB
Master Chief Radioman, US Navy

Thank you for factual corroboration, Hans.

What Hans "corroborated" was the FACT that Morse Code WAS in use by
the Armed Forces well after you said they weren't.

My nephew-in-law was an electrician's mate on a shark,
involved with reactor power plants, not radio...(SNIP)

Which only means that there is yet another member of your family
out there with as much practical experience in Amateur Radio as you
have...

The original "Sigaba" on-line TTY crypto terminal was
first installed in the 1940s...(SNIP)

And had nothing to do with Amateur Radio practice or policy.

The "Sigaba" encryption looked like severely distorted
TTY to any standard, non-crypto TTY terminal, totally
unreadable...(SNIP)

A lot like most of your anti-Amateur Radio rants.

By interviews and other correspondence, the U.S. Army
maintained morsemanship as a requisite for Field Radio
MOSs ("NEC" to swabbies?) up to about 1972.

Not "required" for "Field Radio MOS's" (yes, NEC's to "swabbies")
however STILL taught and STILL used in the 21st Century.

There was no movie-style "behind enemy lines" use of morse
in the 1990-1991 period...or afterwards.

Ohhhhh...Geeeeee....You mean there is SOMEthing our government
doesn't disclose to Leonard H. Anderson..?!?! Imagine that!

Steve, K4YZ

wrote in message
oups.com...


The only encryption used by the USA
(and Canada as well as the UK) was the "Sigaba" as shown
on the USS Pampanito floating museum and at the NSA
on-line Museum.

Wrong, kind elderly Gentleman. It wasn't the "only encryption used by the USA".

SIGABA (KL-29/BACCUS) was only ONE of SEVERAL encryption systems used by the USA
during WWII. In fact, it wasn't even the most commonly used one (KL7/ADONIS
holds that honor).


The "Sigaba" system (TTY), upgraded to post-WW2 standards
was severely compromised by the capture of the USS Pueblo
off the North Korean coast in 1968.

Wrong again, SIGANDERSON. SIGABA (and it's "upgrades") were retired from
service in 1959, almost a decade before the Lloyd Bucher shamefully struck his
colors to the Koreans..

73, de Hans, K0HB
Master Chief Radioman, US Navy

"KØHB" wrote in message
ink.net...

wrote in message
oups.com...


The only encryption used by the USA
(and Canada as well as the UK) was the "Sigaba" as shown
on the USS Pampanito floating museum and at the NSA
on-line Museum.

Wrong, kind elderly Gentleman. It wasn't the "only encryption used by the
USA".

SIGABA (KL-29/BACCUS) was only ONE of SEVERAL encryption systems used by
the USA during WWII. In fact, it wasn't even the most commonly used one
(KL7/ADONIS holds that honor).


The "Sigaba" system (TTY), upgraded to post-WW2 standards
was severely compromised by the capture of the USS Pueblo
off the North Korean coast in 1968.

Wrong again, SIGANDERSON. SIGABA (and it's "upgrades") were retired from
service in 1959, almost a decade before the Lloyd Bucher shamefully struck
his colors to the Koreans..

73, de Hans, K0HB
Master Chief Radioman, US Navy



Hans is typical of radiomen. The more he runs his mouth, the more
his gross ignorance shows. His earlier statement about Morse no
longer being widely taught or used in the U.S. armed forces is but one
case in point. Now he attacks Lloyd Bucher! Is there any doubt
the Navy was correct in disbanding the Radioman rating? Good
riddance! How's the story telling going down at the Legion Hall
Hans?

73,

Lloyd

From: "K=D8=88B" on Sat,Apr 16 2005 3:47 pm

wrote in message
roups.com...

The only encryption used by the USA
(and Canada as well as the UK) was the "Sigaba" as shown
on the USS Pampanito floating museum and at the NSA
on-line Museum.

Wrong, kind elderly Gentleman. It wasn't the "only encryption used by
the USA".

SIGABA (KL-29/BACCUS) was only ONE of SEVERAL encryption systems used
by the USA
during WWII. In fact, it wasn't even the most commonly used one
(KL7/ADONIS
holds that honor).

Of course it's "wrong," you are always "right." :-)

Never had a crypto clearance in the service, certainly
not in WW2. You have one then? [of course you did...]

Have to "dot the i and cross the t" to the EXACT
number or else be sentenced to a capital-crime
felony in here? :-)

All I know is the basic principle of the system,
obtained in a couple of interesting books by
CIVILIANS! :-) Also an article by the Chief
Cryptographer of the U.S. Army...a civilian! :-)


The "Sigaba" system (TTY), upgraded to post-WW2 standards
was severely compromised by the capture of the USS Pueblo
off the North Korean coast in 1968.

Wrong again, SIGANDERSON. SIGABA (and it's "upgrades") were retired
from
service in 1959, almost a decade before the Lloyd Bucher shamefully
struck his
colors to the Koreans..

No problem, Super Chief. :-)

Until around 1964 I didn't KNOW the EXACTNESS of
the systems or even how it was done. The crypto
stuff would roll in looking for all the world as
way-off-bias-distortion-prone TTY on any standard
TTY...on what I saw in the Army.

I'm sure you think that the Army sent everything
"in clear" using morse code (to confuse the 'enemy')
and all that. That's another subject of course and
I'm not allowed to talk of that; I need an AMATEUR
RADIO license in order to talk about military/all-
Navy encryption. :-)

The system used then was a "rotor" type (familiar
name). Essentially a set of rotary switches turning
at different rates (according to key settings, crypto
key, not key on a manual keyboard operation). Those
rotary switches ("rotors") scrambled the normal TTY
in synchronism with the TTY motor and would also
UN-scramble received TTY. Neat thing about that,
even with the "wrong" name and all the EXACT number
and letter designators, was that NOBODY COMPROMISED
IT! Sunnuvagun!

Lots and lots of cryptologists and historians have
tried to see if anyone compromised it on any intercepts
during WW2 and somewhat afterwards (I won't say the
EXACT year because you want to snarl and argue about
it if I do) but haven't come up with anything yet.

Of course you are on this wonderful, traditional,
"do or die," "death before dishonor" bull**** attitude
in regards to Commander Bucher. Riiiiight...the USN
thoughtfully "armed" the USS Pueble with a single
machine gun and a few personal arms of some of the
personnel. NOT ENOUGH destruct flares on board to
destroy equipment. Pueblo was surrounded in shallow
water...not a big problem to have NORTH Korean divers
raise enough equipment to sell to the USSR. But...
"being there" (in your heart) you would want everyone
to FIGHT TO THE LAST MAN! Wow, lot of "good" that was
goint to do.

By the way, since you are so picky-picky about EXACT
names and things, the USS Pueblo was captured by
NORTH Koreans. Korea isn't unifed yet, hasn't been
since the USSR jumped in on the tailboard of WW2 and
"occupied" the North and sticking in their communist
government ideas there. As a separate Korean nation,
that is.

The crew of the USS Pueblo (officially a USN ship,
an "oceanographic research vessel" according to our
government) pretty much survived captivity. [do
you need an EXACT body count?] Bucher survived.
But, Bucher died not too long ago. No problem for
you, huh? The USN didn't haul him up for any courts
martial. He was allowed to retire. [you were allowed
to retire, right?]

CWO Walker, USN, STOLE whole technical manuals (by
photographic copying) and Key Lists while SERVING in
the USN. Sold the material to the USSR. Walker was
eventually caught, tried, and sentenced to life in a
federal pen. [do you need the EXACT details on that,
too, and if no one supplies them, are they "all
wrong?"] Walker is STILL ALIVE! Sunnuvagun!

You don't posit that as a "terrible thing," do you?
You want to try and convict (in absentia) a USN
commissioned officer stuck in an untenable position
in his command...but you don't give a **** about
ANOTHER USN officer, a Warrant, doing deliberate
TREASON while SERVING! That's okay?

73, de Hans, K0HB
Master Chief Radioman, US Navy

Good grief, you didn't "cross the tee" in your
manuevers properly. You should have pointed out
that the USN closed down ELF transmitters in Clam
Lake, WI, and Republic, MI, at the end of September
2004!!! No more 76 Hz at 1 MW. [too many in the
U.S. north country want to "save the environment"
and "preserve world peace" by withholding the use
of *nuclear* (horrors!) missles] Riiiight...76 Hz
is terribly harmful to the ecology they think!

Tsk, tsk! You could have had a FINE time doing the
pillory bit on me...but you NEGLECTED to do so!

Missle submarines and attack submarines have to use
alerts from VLF stations NAA, NLK, NPM, NML, NAU,
NRK, NWC...frequencies from 19.8 to 40.8 KHz. But,
I almost hesitate to list those since you will NO
DOUBT want the EXACT details, the EXACT locations,
and the EXACT mode, protocol, and all that...or ANY
listing is TOTALLY WRONG!!! :-)

Cool it, Master super-duper Chief (USN). I'm still
a citizen of the U.S. of A. and served in MY
country's (USA) military BEFORE you did. I know
that doesn't count for much in this din of inequity
but it's all I got. :-)

By the way, for EXACTNESS, my surname was NEVER
"SIGANDERSON." You made a "mistake" but I won't
hold anything against you. Well, maybe a bayonet
or such... :-)

Temper fry...

wrote in message
oups.com...


Walker is STILL ALIVE! Sunnuvagun!

He shouldn't be.

wrote:

Cool it, Master super-duper Chief (USN). I'm still
a citizen of the U.S. of A. and served in MY
country's (USA) military BEFORE you did. I know
that doesn't count for much in this din of inequity
but it's all I got.

Of course Lennie's reading the riot act to someone about
experience and "seniority", yet is first and loudest to cry foul if
Amateurs point out HIS lack of "experience and seniority".

By the way, for EXACTNESS, my surname was NEVER
"SIGANDERSON." You made a "mistake" but I won't
hold anything against you. Well, maybe a bayonet
or such...

And Lennie, always quick to find SOME "threat" in anything,
blatantly threatens Hans with a bayonet.

Why am I not surprised?

Temper fry...





Steve, K4YZ

Thank you, Master Chief, for your service. You served our country well.
There are others of us who 'lurk' hereabouts and several of us are also
Vets.

Hats off to you, Master Chief, and to you I give an Airborne Salute.

Airborne All The Way from a former 101st Abn. Trooper, Ft. Campbell, KY.
Screaming Eagles get the job done. All others are 'legs'.







"K4YZ" wrote in message
oups.com...

wrote:

Cool it, Master super-duper Chief (USN). I'm still
a citizen of the U.S. of A. and served in MY
country's (USA) military BEFORE you did. I know
that doesn't count for much in this din of inequity
but it's all I got.

Of course Lennie's reading the riot act to someone about
experience and "seniority", yet is first and loudest to cry foul if
Amateurs point out HIS lack of "experience and seniority".

By the way, for EXACTNESS, my surname was NEVER
"SIGANDERSON." You made a "mistake" but I won't
hold anything against you. Well, maybe a bayonet
or such...

And Lennie, always quick to find SOME "threat" in anything,
blatantly threatens Hans with a bayonet.

Why am I not surprised?

Temper fry...





Steve, K4YZ

Jumper 101 wrote:
Thank you, Master Chief, for your service. You served our country
well.
There are others of us who 'lurk' hereabouts and several of us are
also
Vets.

Hats off to you, Master Chief, and to you I give an Airborne Salute.

Airborne All The Way from a former 101st Abn. Trooper, Ft. Campbell,
KY.
Screaming Eagles get the job done. All others are 'legs'.

And thanks to you for your service and sacrifices, Jumper!


Steve, GySgt United States Marine Corps 1974 to 1992.

From: "K4YZ" on Apr 18, 2:31 pm



There's NO such member at the IEEE. IEEE is a worldwide
professional association. I first joined them in 1973
and am a Life Member. You can check that in the annual
Membership Directory.

retired (from regular hours) electronic engineer person

Retired from what he alledges to have been an engineering
career...

Feel free to query the Personnel departments of:
Rocketdyne Division of Boeing Aircraft (when it was
a Division of Rockwell International), Teledyne
Electronics (Newbury Park, CA), Hughes Aircraft
Corporation (now owned by Ford? see ElSegundo radar
and Canoga Park missle divisions), RCA Corporation
EASD (now owned by General Electric), Electro-
Optical Systems (Pasadena, a division of Xerox
Corporation).

That goes back 40 years. I didn't list Micro-
Radionics since they got purchased by Systron-
Donner which was later purchased by another
corporation with the original MRI group moved
from its Van Nuys, CA, building. Same with
Birtcher Corporation bailing out of a competitive
electronics market and into building management.

I left the RCA/GE Retirement Plan in favor of a
lump sum dispersal a couple years ago, worked out
well for me financially; still getting rebates
from our joint tax returns.

Mentioning the part-time job as Associate Editor
(as well as frequent contributor to Ham Radio
Magazine seems to be a sore point with you. Too
bad, but you can still get ALL the articles they
published over their 22-year life from CQ or ARRL
for $150 the set of three CDs (shipping extra if
ordered by mail). Since you don't do any computer
hobby activities, you wouldn't be interested in
my articles in BYTE, Micro, or CALL-A.P.P.L.E
publications; ELECTRONICS magazine, a bi-weekly
published by McGraw-Hill changed into four
separate marketing type periodicals. The old
Hewlett-Packard (calculator) Software Library is
long gone so you can't check there...although at
least one program submittal was in the Top 10
requested programs for months.

Now full time newsgroup insulting.

Tsk, tsk. You mean like calling others "PUTZ"
or "LIAR" or "DECEITFUL?" I don't think I've
done that. Seems to me that little STEVIE does
that on a regular basis!

Sunnuvagun! (as Hans likes to say...)

Poor Stevie, you HAD to comment on "alledged." Tsk.