John Smith wrote:
... no, I think Haynie has it right, read the whole article... code is
no longer of any importance and the ancient amateurs could not even pass
the test given today--READ THE ARTICLE!

I read the article. Haynie may speak for his own abilities but not
mine. Morse code is of no consequence to one who doesn't wish to
communicate using CW. I find it quite important and quite enjoyable,
top-posting "John".

Dave K8MN

John
"Dave Heil" wrote in message
k.net...

John Smith wrote:

Len:

A direct quote from Jim Haynie, "The ARRL president asserted that
many Amateur Extra class licensees couldn't pass today's Element 4
examination if they had to..."
Complete article at:
http://www.arrl.org/news/stories/2004/05/22/1/?nc=1

Haynie's mistake is in assuming that because he might have trouble
passing it, many others would also have difficulty.

Dave K8MN

John Smith wrote:
Let me see if I have all of your "facts" straight:

1) there is no problem
2) old farts are cutting edge techs
3) one look will tell you how "progressive" amateur radio is
4) everything just looks wrong, it is really right
5) code is important
6) ARRL is wrong
7) Haynie is wrong
8) FCC is wrong

... yeah, right!

John

Well, "John", let's take 'em in reverse order in honor of your top
posting style:

8. The FCC has been wrong on numerous occasions.

7. Jim Haynie has been wrong more times than the FCC.

6. The ARRL varies between getting it right and getting it wrong.

5. Morse code is important to me.

4. Everything may look wrong to you and Len Anderson; that doesn't mean
that it is.

3. I wrote nothing about "one look".

2. When you use the "old farts" term, I peg you as just another
twenty-year-old with fifty years of experience.

1. I don't see any huge problems for amateur radio.

Now to a guy like Leonard Anderson, a guy who claims several decades of
interest in amateur radio but who has never taken the first step toward
actually obtaining an amateur ticket, I'm sure that amateur radio is in
an awful pickle.

I'm still reserving judgement on your motivations.

Dave K8MN



"Dave Heil" wrote in message
ink.net...

wrote:


The mighty macho morsemen cannot conceive of that. They are
immortal. They RULE. [they've said as much...]

Er...actually, you've said as much.


However, "energy and enthusiasm" is a function of both individual
genes and mental outlook. "Enthusiasm" in half-century-old state-
of-the-art techiques and practices should be consigned to niche
nostalgia places, not kept as federal regulations.

Most hams I've encountered aren't locked to old technology. They're
using the latest equipment available to them. They are not, however,
obliged to discard any technology simply because it isn't the newest
and latest.


Many of the stratification crowd seem to hang onto their
"enthusiasm" of their young days as if it were a lifeline to
some imagined fountain of youth promising that they will
remain younger than springtime by holding to old paradigms.

You haven't yet explained what constitutes "the stratification crowd".
Most hams I've encountered are enthusiastic about amateur radio. They
enjoy it immensely. I don't expect you to understand.


[Rodgers and Hammerstein could do a great musical opera on
that if Rodgers wasn't a silent (piano) key and Oscar wasn't
a silent pen...but it wouldn't play in Newington] [well,
maybe a version of "Carousel" since these olde-fahrts keep
going around and around and around...]

You seem to be the oldest fart here. Are you going around and around?


My own viewpoint is different.

I'll say.


By virtue of being born when
I was, my lifetime has seen the comming of the solid-state
era and the definite decay of vacuum tube technology...

What makes that special? Many of us are in the same boat, old timer.


...that
bringing a virtual explosion of different applications, new
and exciting SOCs (Systems On a Chip)...plus a whole new set
of passive and semi-active components and ways to hold them all
together. Technology-wise that is truly WONDERFUL and
MARVELOUS.

A very Andersonesque, masterful statement of the obvious...


We all have the capability of high-speed data and
imagery communications internationally, 24/7...

No, we don't all have that.


...no worries about
the condition of the ionosphere...

...unless we're trying to use HF radio.


all for less than $2000 in
today's dollars to get a "mainframe" computer on a desk and
a year's subscription to an ISP.

Really? You have a "mainframe" computer on your desk?
The only thing close to a "mainframe" computer that I've used is the
Wang VS and it was a "mini". I'd have had to have had a pretty big
desk for it.


Buy-sell-trade, do personal
banking, keep family in touch at all times etc., etc., etc.
My personal enthusiasm on the technology just grows and grows
from keeping in touch with the new developments and seeing
the products (some delivered to my door after electronic
ordering). I'm not going to see the end of even if the
mortal world sees my end. That's the way of humans being.

Yep, long bows, crossbows, gunpowder--there's simply no end to it.


Others, the stratification crowd, the staunch defenders of the
status quo, demand a HALT to progress, NO CHANGE.

That would seem to be a pretty large fib on your part.


Keep all
nice and tidy and belonging just the way it was when they were
young. Psychological reassurances of their "safety." Denial
of the fact that they ARE getting on. Denial of the fact that
other, younger people MIGHT be interested in doing this ham
radio hobby thing. Oh, some of them whip up some adrenaline
and do lip-service to old, trite phrases of "helping youngsters"
and all that but the MUST keep THEIR playground in their order.
NO changes allowed.


Most don't help, don't bother to learn how to help.

Then again, you'd have absolutely no way of knowing it that is the
case.


Why would a young person of today WANT to study morse code just
to communicate on HF?

Uhhhh....to communicate with others who are using the mode or to learn
something different than his peers or maybe, just because it is a
qualification for obtaining an HF amateur radio license.


Other than being in a "ham family?"

Other than being in a ham family, what?


The
Internet opened to the public 14 years ago and most of the world
is connected to the net.

No, most of the world is assuredly not connect to the internet.


A shrink wrap CB transceiver is available
over the counter for less than $100, complete with antenna and
microphone. A pair of FRS hand-helds costs only $50 maximum and
permits 5 mile two-way talking with isolation via digital mode.

What's your point, Leonard? Do you own stock in Cobra?


A cell phone with a built-in camera costs less than $100 and can
communicate anywhere within range of a cell site...to the rest
of the telephonic world.

Neat. Even if I don't have one, I have a telephone. With it, I can
also communicate to the rest of the "telephonic world".


One in five Americans have cell phone
subscriptions.

One in five American hams belong to the ARRL.

Need to send documents across country fast? Go

to chain drugstores and use their FAX machines.

Why would I need to do that? I'd just use my desktop "mainframe"
computer and FAX with it.


All sorts of
quick communications possibilities for all today.

Yeah?


COMPETITION OF INTEREST.

COMPETITION OF INTEREST, what?

Competition of quality and dependability.

What about them?


And all
that hasn't touched on the OTHER advantages the younger folk have
today, things that are entertaining, interesting, mind-holding.

Yeah--hip hop, computer porn, drugs, piercing body parts and video
gaming come to mind.




In truth, some young folks LIKE certain old things.

Then somewhere, there is a young person who must like you.



Today's ham can purchase a top-of-the-line HF transceiver, fancy
antenna and tower, peripheral gizmos up the gazoo, all for less
than $5000.

Where can I get all of that stuff for less than five grand, Leonard?


They get rock-solid frequency stability and read-out
of same down to 10 Hz increments...Digital Signal Processing,
"VFO 'split'" with frequency memories, sharp crystal filters to
reduce QRM and QRN to a minimum...even operate it through a PC!
None of that was available in a single package a half century ago.

None of that was available a quarter-century ago.


But, the olde-fahrts can sit back and dictate all MUST test for
the 161-year-old "technology" skill of morse code on that HF.

Some of 'em are still using human speech to communicate. That dates
back thousands and thousands of years.


Incredible dichotomy. Incredible hypocrisy.

Those don't seem to qualify as sentences.


Actuarial tables will manifest themselves. The mighty macho
morsemen WILL have their morse keys pried out of their cold,
dead fingers.

But actuarial tables being what they are, they'd indicate that this
will be one of those things you aren't likely to be around to see. In
fact, you'll likely miss out on amateur radio altogether.

Dave K8MN

John Smith wrote:
Haynie said:

1) "It's not that Amateur Radio is dumbed down," he said. "People like
me have failed to keep up, and if you look in your heart, you're going
to say the same thing."

He's right on the money. But many hams are *not* like him, yes?

2) "...if you want people to come out of that examination room in here
to be able to design circuits--you're in the wrong hobby."

Of course, that's been obvious to everybody else around here since
somebody first started selling spark rigs out of a catalog. Is it
somehow imperative that hams must be able to design current-tech
circuits or the sky will fall on the hobby? What's your point?

3) "I said, if we come down on the side of code, we're going to make
the no-code people mad, and if we come down on the side of the no-code,
we're going to make the code people mad..."

Ah, but then he continued ". . so the best thing for us to do is be
evenhanded, and make everybody mad," Haynie said, tongue-in-cheek. "And
I think we're doing a good job of it." "

In other words the League has ducked out of the code teat war this time
and put in the hands of the FCC.

Do you have a problem with that?? I sure don't.

Your "selective snippages" are as a bare minimum a bit of comic relief.


4) "...he predicted that the Commission will never reinstate higher code
speed requirements as some have requested."

OBVIOUSLY . . wtf . . ?!

5) "The FCC is not going to go back to 13 and 20 words per minute, and
you can take that to the bank," he predicted. "It's not going to
happen." The Commission went with the single 5 WPM requirement because
it was "sick and tired" of dealing with medical waivers, he said.

This is astounding new info or what??

Although he has become a pretty smart "politician" and "diplomat"--it is
obvious code is given very little if any importance. Now you can argue
his words anyway you like--but you can't find one word of his which
places ANY importance on it... He HAS said old amateurs have lost sense
of reality, that is right there in no. 1) ... argue that anyway you
like--into looking like a fool...

Smitty I'm about 99% in agreement with what Haynie stated, I'm not
arguing his words at all, I'm arguing YOUR words. Which are goofy,
naive attempts to twist reality around which we all see thru. You're
quite terrible at this game you're trying to play John but hang around
here awhile and watch how the real pros harpoon reality in this group .
.. maybe you'll get better at the game.

.. . speaking of reality . . in the end when all the dust settles CW is
everywhere on the bands today and it's gonna still be on the bands long
after you and I have both expired. Get comfortable with it my good man
because neither of us can do a bloody thing about it one way or
another. THAT's the real reality.

And by the way what's your callsign?

Good night.

John

w3v

wrote:
From: "John Smith" on Wed 8 Jun 2005 18:03


Let me see if I have all of your "facts" straight:

1) there is no problem
2) old farts are cutting edge techs
3) one look will tell you how "progressive" amateur radio is
4) everything just looks wrong, it is really right
5) code is important
6) ARRL is wrong
7) Haynie is wrong
8) FCC is wrong

... yeah, right!

John
"Dave Heil" wrote in message
hlink.net...


John, you forgot one:

9) Leonard is always wrong :-)

Try to be specific and accurate: Leonard H. Anderson is usually wrong. :-)

Dave K8MN

You just dismissed the fact that Haynie is seeing a real problem here,
he is beginning to tell hams to stop acting like such immature jerks and
get with the program--you take these words are turn them into him giving
you an "Atta Boy!"
If you are fool enough to believe that you will have to... such denial,
avoidance and BS has stagnated us to the point where all there are, are
a bunch of guys out there too old to be of interest to QSO with--the
young guys know that and you can tell them different till the cows come
home--it will not change one thing...
I am 52 and most are too old for me... long winded rants about
yesteryear and such is a real turn off to this guy... I cringe when I
see the expressions on the young mens face who hear it on my demos of
radio...
You sit there thinking all is well--I can tell you are past anything but
an argument for maintaining status quo...
You really mean to tell me you feel the bands out there are "congested?"
Tell someone without a radio--they just might believe you...
We both hear Haynies words you think he is saying, "Good Job Guys!" I
challenge that all right, I hear him saying, "Get with it old fools!!!"

John

wrote in message
oups.com...


John Smith wrote:
Haynie said:

1) "It's not that Amateur Radio is dumbed down," he said. "People
like
me have failed to keep up, and if you look in your heart, you're
going
to say the same thing."

He's right on the money. But many hams are *not* like him, yes?

2) "...if you want people to come out of that examination room in
here
to be able to design circuits--you're in the wrong hobby."

Of course, that's been obvious to everybody else around here since
somebody first started selling spark rigs out of a catalog. Is it
somehow imperative that hams must be able to design current-tech
circuits or the sky will fall on the hobby? What's your point?

3) "I said, if we come down on the side of code, we're going to make
the no-code people mad, and if we come down on the side of the
no-code,
we're going to make the code people mad..."

Ah, but then he continued ". . so the best thing for us to do is be
evenhanded, and make everybody mad," Haynie said, tongue-in-cheek.
"And
I think we're doing a good job of it." "

In other words the League has ducked out of the code teat war this
time
and put in the hands of the FCC.

Do you have a problem with that?? I sure don't.

Your "selective snippages" are as a bare minimum a bit of comic
relief.


4) "...he predicted that the Commission will never reinstate higher
code
speed requirements as some have requested."

OBVIOUSLY . . wtf . . ?!

5) "The FCC is not going to go back to 13 and 20 words per minute,
and
you can take that to the bank," he predicted. "It's not going to
happen." The Commission went with the single 5 WPM requirement
because
it was "sick and tired" of dealing with medical waivers, he said.

This is astounding new info or what??

Although he has become a pretty smart "politician" and "diplomat"--it
is
obvious code is given very little if any importance. Now you can
argue
his words anyway you like--but you can't find one word of his which
places ANY importance on it... He HAS said old amateurs have lost
sense
of reality, that is right there in no. 1) ... argue that anyway you
like--into looking like a fool...

Smitty I'm about 99% in agreement with what Haynie stated, I'm not
arguing his words at all, I'm arguing YOUR words. Which are goofy,
naive attempts to twist reality around which we all see thru. You're
quite terrible at this game you're trying to play John but hang around
here awhile and watch how the real pros harpoon reality in this group
.
. maybe you'll get better at the game.

. . speaking of reality . . in the end when all the dust settles CW is
everywhere on the bands today and it's gonna still be on the bands
long
after you and I have both expired. Get comfortable with it my good man
because neither of us can do a bloody thing about it one way or
another. THAT's the real reality.

And by the way what's your callsign?

Good night.

John

w3v

wrote:
From: "K4YZ" on Jun 8, 5:14 am


I didn't get any farther than this to see what yet anotehr moronic
anti-Amateur Radio rant this was.

Yet another validation of my claim that Leonard H. Anderson is a
chronic, pathological liar.



...the sun sets on the Tomb of the Unknown Solder...(SNIP)

I'm getting those caffinated beverages ready for MY final salute
at your gravesite, Lennie.

Tell Mrs Lennie to bring her galoshes.

Steve, K4YZ

Haynie mentioned you in no 1), someone who won't admit they are killing
the hobby... you aren't anything but a self-centered jerk with a big ego
and self-opinion, and you are here because this newsgroup is full of
'em, you guys have all busted your arms in an over-zealous state to pat
each other on the back. You look like a group engaged in a
group-masturbation of egos--I can assure you at 52 I find it makes me
ill--I can't even imagine how it must disgust younger men....
Too long you have been coddled with kind words till with even your worst
behavior you expect them...

Warmest regards,
John

"Dave Heil" wrote in message
nk.net...
John Smith wrote:
... no, I think Haynie has it right, read the whole article... code
is no longer of any importance and the ancient amateurs could not
even pass the test given today--READ THE ARTICLE!

I read the article. Haynie may speak for his own abilities but not
mine. Morse code is of no consequence to one who doesn't wish to
communicate using CW. I find it quite important and quite enjoyable,
top-posting "John".

Dave K8MN

John
"Dave Heil" wrote in message
k.net...

John Smith wrote:

Len:

A direct quote from Jim Haynie, "The ARRL president asserted that
many Amateur Extra class licensees couldn't pass today's Element 4
examination if they had to..."
Complete article at:
http://www.arrl.org/news/stories/2004/05/22/1/?nc=1

Haynie's mistake is in assuming that because he might have trouble
passing it, many others would also have difficulty.

Dave K8MN

wrote:
From: John Smith on Jun 8, 5:35 pm

Yes.

Well, you cannot disguise the fact that the over 60 crowd just don't
have the energy or enthusiasm as the teenage to 30 crowd--or the fact
that these younger people are actively engaged in the research,
development and production phases of electronics. Why they may
effectively hang on limiting the hobby--this cannot not go on
indefinitely...

And, while it is true only those with a wet diaper can truly appreciate
change--change is in the wind... the next decade should provide a dip
in number of licenses which has never been seen before... this is only
the beginning...

The mighty macho morsemen cannot conceive of that. They are
immortal. They RULE. [they've said as much...]

However, "energy and enthusiasm" is a function of both individual
genes and mental outlook. "Enthusiasm" in half-century-old state-
of-the-art techiques and practices should be consigned to niche
nostalgia places, not kept as federal regulations.

Lennie...YOU are the person who ALWAYS reverts to tales of "half
century old state-of-the-art techniques and practices"...Not "us".

Many of the stratification crowd seem to hang onto their
"enthusiasm" of their young days as if it were a lifeline to
some imagined fountain of youth promising that they will
remain younger than springtime by holding to old paradigms.

Whew...Any windier than that and Goodyear might invite you over to
the flying field next time the blimp gets a little limp...

My own viewpoint is different. By virtue of being born when
I was...(SNIP)

Give you no more "perspective" on modern day Amateur Radio than
anyone else who can read about it in a magazine or on-line.

That IS the limits of your experience in Amateur Radio.

Others, the stratification crowd, the staunch defenders of the
status quo, demand a HALT to progress, NO CHANGE.

There goes Leoand H Anderson with more of his chronic lying.

Leonard H Anderson IS the only one in this forum who expresses
that ideal. Not a single person in this forum, including myself, has
EVER expressed a "NO CHANGE" position.

Keep all
nice and tidy and belonging just the way it was when they were
young.

...or we could all time-travel ourselves back to post-war Japan to
be rear-area radio mechanics of the 50's...Like Lennie does so often.

Why would a young person of today WANT to study morse code just
to communicate on HF?

Most that I've had contact with lately don't want to get on HF on
ANY mode...They are enthralled with EchoLink and the digital modes, all
of which can give them nearly the same worldwide communications
capability taht another $750 in equipment could get them.

(This is yet another of those "practical experiences" that
licensed Amateurs have that Lennie doesn't...)

A pair of FRS hand-helds costs only $50 maximum and
permits 5 mile two-way talking with isolation via digital mode.

BWWWWHHHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAH AHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHHAHA HAHAHAHAHAHA
! ! ! ! ! !

MAYBE if one of them is on Racho Palo Verdes and the other on
Crestline, Lennie....

Everyone else is limited to about a 1/4 to 1/2 mile, despite the
advertising hype to the contrary.

(Even MORE "practical experience" that Lennie lacks....)

A cell phone with a built-in camera costs less than $100 and can
communicate anywhere within range of a cell site...to the rest
of the telephonic world.

Uh-huh...

For $30 to $50 a month...Plus other fees depending on who you
contract with. Skip a payment, and the only "pictures" you'll be
taking are with a disposable Wal-Mart 35mm camera.

Today's ham can purchase a top-of-the-line HF transceiver, fancy
antenna and tower, peripheral gizmos up the gazoo, all for less
than $5000.

Actually for less than that.

But, the olde-fahrts can sit back and dictate all MUST test for
the 161-year-old "technology" skill of morse code on that HF.
Incredible dichotomy. Incredible hypocrisy.

None of us is "dictating" that, Lennie.

Your NON-licensed commissioners in Washington and Gettysburg are
doing that.

There's your "dichotomy", Lennie.

Actuarial tables will manifest themselves. The mighty macho
morsemen WILL have their morse keys pried out of their cold,
dead fingers. Your prediction will come to pass. Perhaps
much sooner than they expected. RIP.

I've been praying for a stroke on Lanark Street. Maybe sooner
than later?

LenIdon'tHaveAlickOfPracticalExperienceInHamRadioA

Steve, K4YZ

You are a silly old man, I am indeed licensed... but that should make
little difference... that argument is not what I am, but what the hobby
is and where it is going, you are a crafty old buzzard always anxious to
side track facts into a gutter of personal attacks and rants on someones
present status--too me--you just look like a damn street smart punk
which knows a few tricks--and dirty underhanded ones at that...

John

"Cmd Buzz Corey" wrote in message
...
John Smith wrote:
Haynie mentioned you in no 1), someone who won't admit they are
killing the hobby... you aren't anything but a self-centered jerk
with a big ego and self-opinion,

And you aren't anything but a know-nothing cber who couldn't pass the
exam for a ham license if your miserable life depended upon it.

John Smith wrote:
"Cmd Buzz Corey" wrote in message
...
John Smith wrote:
Haynie mentioned you in no 1), someone who won't admit they are
killing the hobby... you aren't anything but a self-centered jerk
with a big ego and self-opinion,

And you aren't anything but a know-nothing cber who couldn't pass the
exam for a ham license if your miserable life depended upon it.

You are a silly old man, I am indeed licensed...

Not likely.

but that should make little difference...(SNIP)

It makes a LOT of difference.

It establishes from what point of reference that you make your
assertions. It's called an "informed opinion".

Lennie is an example of a lot of fluff without experience. He
"knows" a lot from what he cuts and pastes...no more...no less...

Just like you so far.

(UNSNIP...that argument is not what I am, but what the hobby
is and where it is going...(SNIP)

And you know this?

So far you've offered nothing but hit and run, anonymous quips with
little or no substantiation of your "opinions".

(UNSNIP)...you are a crafty old buzzard always anxious to
side track facts into a gutter of personal attacks and rants on someones
present status...(SNIP)

And so far you've done/said nothing except to make your OWN "gutter
of personal attacks". So what's the difference?

(UNSNIP)....--too me--you just look like a damn street smart punk
which knows a few tricks--and dirty underhanded ones at that...

Lessee...You're anonymous...apparently unlicensed...not a bit of
substantiation of ANY assertion...

Yep..."damn street punk" WITHOUT the "smarts"...

Steve, K4YZ