| Home |
| Search |
| Today's Posts |
|
|
|
#1
June 16th 05, 12:22 AM
|
|||
|
|||
|
|
#3
May 30th 05, 01:49 PM
|
|||
|
|||
|
Mike Coslo wrote:
wrote: Mike Coslo wrote: Many people lament that there is not enough interest in Ham radio by young people. Agreed - but how much would be enough? Dunno. I personally agree somewhat with Brian K's assertion that the absolute number of Hams could indeed drop without serious problems. It's happening already. The important number is how many *active* hams there are. On the other hand, I believe that we should have a good mix of ages. Sure - but how much is enough? If, say, 10% of the US amateur population were under the age of 21, would that be enough? How would it compare to the way things were 10, 20, 30 years ago? Looking around at hamfests and club meetings isn't necessarily a representative sample of the ham population. There are often many reasons given for this deficiency, and somewhat less "fixes". One thing is for su Adding an age requirement, as proposed to FCC by one frequent poster here, isn't a fix nor a good idea. One of the reasons that is given very often is that Amateur radio is in some sort of competition with the Internet. Every activity is in competition with every other. Surely. Comparisons between the two show that Amateur radio is a tad bit more involved than buying a computer, doing a dialup and surfing the net. Will a person who's idea of a hobby is clicking a mouse button find Amateur radio a tad intimidating? More than a tad! What is the competition between the two? In order to use the internet, one must of course have a computer. It must be connected to the internet, through one of several methods. Once the person has learned to turn on the computer, open a few programs or so, they have the necessary skills to work the internet. Yup. But there's mo A computer has many uses, from being a glorified typewriter to a serious research/calculation device to gaming to producing all sorts of multimedia stuff. Don't forget surfing porn. A great way to build character! 8^) See "all sorts of multimedia stuff". Most decent white-collar jobs today require computer skills. Many blue-collar jobs also require them. Amateur radio on the other hand, requires that a radio be used, which requires some skill in operating. An antenna system needs to be connected to this radio. Whereas it is possible to have everything set up for the Ham, most young people do not have the resources to have someone set up their system. Coupled with the possibility of putting an antenna in operation that only costs a few dollars, or even less if the youngster has good scrounging skills, the likelihood is that they would design and put up their own antenna, another skill needed. So there is a large difference in the skills needed for the two hobbies. You're missing a couple of other points, Mike. Computers are all over the place, inexpensive, and often available as hand-me-downs. PCs only a few years old can be had for next-to-nothing. Not missing a point. To me, computers are like underwear - pretty much gotta have it. And like underwear, there are some things better done without computers... Some people live in places where putting up an antenna - *any* antenna - is banned by CC&Rs. A family isn't likely to move so that Junior can put up a G5RV. Heh! i had a thought -maybe we could get some of the rebellious types to go stealth! 8^) A few might. Cell phones as competition? While there is a temptation to snipe "Get Real!", I'll address those too. What would make a person decide to take up Cell phone use as a hobby? Cell phones allow you to talk to people that you know (for the most part) and operate in the same manner as a regular telephone, save that you take the cell with you, and you are generally tied in the same building with a standard telephone. It's hard to imagine someone doing that as a hobby, although there are a lot of people who spend a lot of time using them. You missed the point, Mike. Before cell phones became inexpensive and ubiquitous, the average person didn't have many options for personal mobile/portable communications. There was ham radio and cb and not much else. Cell phones changed all that. Actually, I think you missed my point! My point is that if a person is making a choice of hobbies to get into, the concept of choosing between Amateur radio and using a cell phone just isn't in the mix. I see trendy teens with cell phones glued to their heads every day. I can only assume that they spend hours each day on them. Maybe - but kids spending lots of time on the 'phone isn't a new thing at all. Goes back to the '50s at least. I can guarantee that that kid has never considered amateur radio as a hobby. I doubt they consider their cells as a hobby either. Means to an end, not an end in itself. So it is pretty hard to think of that as competition. Here's how: Back before cell phones, one "selling point" for ham radio was something like "if you and your friends got ham licenses, you could talk all you want without tying up the 'phone." Another was that repeaters extended the range of an HT, mobile or compromise home station enormously. Of course that's a "means to an end" application - the goal is talking to the friends, the radio part is simply how it's done. 20 years ago such a "sales pitch" made sense. Today, in most places, the response would be to simply get a cell phone. I have two cell phones, a few computers, spend a lot of time on the internet in my job and off work, and I cannot explain the seeming exclusivity ascribed to the them as related to my Ham license. Time spent on them is not time on the air. So what makes a youngster decide to become a Ham? Same things that make anyone else. We can try using the input of those who became Hams at a young age. Most of what I have heard is that the person was very interested in the technical aspects involved with getting on the air. Making antennas, building rigs, and getting them on the air was a big part of the attraction. I was one of those people - licensed at age 13. With no real help from the parents, btw. In the end, I believe that it is young people that have a technical interest that will likely become Hams. More complex than that. There are three basic areas of interest involved: 1) Technical (likes to fool around with radio stuff) 2) Operating (likes the actual operating experience) 3) Communicating (likes the message content more than the medium) Most hams' reasons for getting into the ARS are a mixture of the three. For example, I know some DXers whose main focus is #2. They love the thrill of the chase, hunting down the new ones, etc. Their stations are technical wonders - but the technical stuff is simply a means to an end, not the end in itself. Then there are the ragchew types who have real long-term friendships on-air. Their focus is mainly #3. Or the techno types who are always working on a project but rarely on the air. Once they get something working really well, the excitement is gone and they're off to something else. And that, I believe, is the crux of the issue. I think it's more complex. America is not a place that encourages those who might be thinking of a technical career. We have a tendency to encourage a more "pop culture" outlook, which as often as not discounts actual learning for "street cred", and actually turns the smart person into an object of ridicule. There are levels, and there are levels. If a person is intelligent, and wants a good livelihood, you will find careers that are acceptable. You can be a movie star, or perhaps a lawyer. A whole spectrum follows, but engineering and the technical fields are not very high on that list. Agreed. How often is the Techie portrayed as a sort of Bill Nye, the science guy type (at best). How many TV shows and movies ever depict engineering or technical folks at all, compared to other fields like health care or law enforcement? And we've only had a gazillion shows about that kind of stuff. Bingo. One show made a start toward a good positive presentation of engineers and techies. It was Star Trek. The original series had a very kind treatment of Scottie, the engineer. The portrayal of the engineer as a Scot is a classic stereotype. Goes back to "MacAndrew's Hymn" at least. How about the smart woman who takes off her glasses and suddenly becomes the hot babe? Bailey Quarters. Although she's hot with the glasses *on*, as well.. I'll bet you liked Marcia Strassman too! Of course - Mrs. Kotter... Professor Frink on "The Simpsons"? Pop culture is not kind to the technical types. Been that way for a long time, Mike. My experiences with programs like "bring your sons and daughters to work day" shows that almost none of the kids is even thinking of a technical field. A lot want to be lawyers. Or business types, or a lot of other things. Yup. I don't know if you heard about this, but there are some people who want to bring proposition 19 into the whole of education. I can see it now, young women being forced to become engineers..... There's a big difference between equality of opportunity and equality of result. Look what happened to the guy at Harvard... Once in the past, we were scared into thinking that maybe science and technology was maybe not such a bad thing. That happened when the commies launched Sputnik. Yeah - who'd a thunk they could do something like that? Suddenly it seemed important that at least some of our kids decided to work in the sciences. Hopefully we will decide that again without having to be shocked into it. No, today is worse. The society seems unshockable. Look at where so much stuff today is made... I share your concern. BTW, the place where so much of our "stuff" is made is not our friend. Sure they are - as long as we play by *their* rules. Part of the problem goes back decades, to when the USA decided that certain sectors of manufacturing could be dominated by imports. I am pretty firmly convinced that until we stop catering to the least common denominator, until we stop marginalizing the technically and scientifically inclined, we will not find many youngsters who want to come into our hobby. The fact of the matter is that amateur radio has always been a rather specialized activity anyway. No argument there. I graduated high school in 1972 - the golden age of space and technology, right? Well, pretty close to the end of it.... In my high school of 2500 boys there were at most six licensed hams. In the girls' school next door there were *none*. 5000 middle class kids in suburban Philly, going to schools where the emphasis was on math and science, and there were but a handful of hams. And this was in an era before CC&Rs, cable TV, VCRs, cell phones, PCs, etc. My basic thesis is that we as a society are moving toward the celebration of the ordinary, the mundane. We have lost our edge. And that can only last for so long. I think it's the opposite - we don't celebrate the "ordinary" enough! Suppose - just suppose - that instead of going to the moon on a "before this decade is out" timeline, the USA had devoted some of those resources to developing energy independence. Energy crisis? what energy crisis? If we can celebrate those who *DO* things instead of simply consume things, we might reverse that trend. You mean "produce things". The people who are celebrities today are all doers - movie stars, sports figures, etc. The most popular highschool technical activity back then was working on cars. A kid with a few tools and skills could get a few dollars together, buy an old heap and get on the road. Been there, done that. 8^) How many highschoolers do that today? 73 de Jim, N2EY |
|
#4
May 30th 05, 04:15 PM
|
|||
|
|||
|
wrote:
Mike Coslo wrote: wrote: .. . . On the other hand, I believe that we should have a good mix of ages. Sure - but how much is enough? If, say, 10% of the US amateur population were under the age of 21, would that be enough? What "dire fate" would befall ham radio if there wasn't a single licensee under 21? What do they actaully bring to hobby which is so important?? Sorry, makes no sense, I just don't get it. If it's a numbers game why not shift gears and recruit retirees instead of chasing kids? The retirees are far more independent than kids, they're more mature, on average they don't care about nonsense like instant gratification and peer pressure and they have the time the kids don't have. And in most cases they also have the money the kids don't have. w3rv |
|
#5
May 30th 05, 07:21 PM
|
|||
|
|||
|
wrote in message oups.com... wrote: Mike Coslo wrote: wrote: . . . On the other hand, I believe that we should have a good mix of ages. Sure - but how much is enough? If, say, 10% of the US amateur population were under the age of 21, would that be enough? What "dire fate" would befall ham radio if there wasn't a single licensee under 21? What do they actaully bring to hobby which is so important?? Sorry, makes no sense, I just don't get it. If it's a numbers game why not shift gears and recruit retirees instead of chasing kids? The retirees are far more independent than kids, they're more mature, on average they don't care about nonsense like instant gratification and peer pressure and they have the time the kids don't have. And in most cases they also have the money the kids don't have. w3rv Kelly, I think we're batting our gums over nothing. The original post, in my mind, hit the nail on the head. Technical folks seem to be almost unwanted in the United States. One reason for amateur radio (at least in the past) was to attract the technically oriented and hopefully some would persue their interest and become engineers. Engineers don't make tons of money these days. Skilled trades folks are almost unwanted. I had to laugh, there were ads for toolmakers (a number of years minimum experience) that ran $10.00 to $12.00 per hour. I just saw an ad for a parking lot attendent at $11.00 per hour. Of course, the requirements for that job were tough. Almost as tough as amateur radio requirements. Not only did you need a high school diploma (or ged, or equivalent experience), you had to be able to make change without the use of a computer or calculator! Meanwhile, Russia launches Direct TVs latest hi-definition satellite, China does the manufacturing. As to your suggestion about putting a minimum age limit for amateurs, raising it enough (say to 55) would ensure that mostly appliance operators apply. Sorry, I can't agree on an age limit for amateurs (although I understand what you mean about the numbers game - therefor the suggestion). Meanwhile, we have to get rid of manufacturing and perhaps teachers too. We have more important stuff to deal with, such as the weapons of mass destruction. 73 from Rochester, NY Jim AA2QA |
|
#6
May 30th 05, 07:50 PM
|
|||
|
|||
|
wrote in message oups.com... wrote: Mike Coslo wrote: wrote: . . . On the other hand, I believe that we should have a good mix of ages. Sure - but how much is enough? If, say, 10% of the US amateur population were under the age of 21, would that be enough? What "dire fate" would befall ham radio if there wasn't a single licensee under 21? What do they actaully bring to hobby which is so important?? Sorry, makes no sense, I just don't get it. If it's a numbers game why not shift gears and recruit retirees instead of chasing kids? The retirees are far more independent than kids, they're more mature, on average they don't care about nonsense like instant gratification and peer pressure and they have the time the kids don't have. And in most cases they also have the money the kids don't have. w3rv I've often suggested recruiting people in the 40 to 50 year old range. Their kids are grown or nearly so. They have a better income than when they were younger and a little more free time than when they were younger. And they are still young enough to have energy and enthusiasm for new activities. Personally I try to encourage everyone of all ages who shows even a hint of interest. Dee D. Flint, N8UZE |
|
#7
May 31st 05, 01:12 AM
|
|||
|
|||
|
wrote:
wrote: Mike Coslo wrote: wrote: . . . On the other hand, I believe that we should have a good mix of ages. Sure - but how much is enough? If, say, 10% of the US amateur population were under the age of 21, would that be enough? What "dire fate" would befall ham radio if there wasn't a single licensee under 21? What do they actaully bring to hobby which is so important?? Sorry, makes no sense, I just don't get it. Whole bunch of things: 1) Youth is the future 2) One of the Basis and Purposes of the ARS is education - which includes things like educating youth. Even if a young ham does not become an engineer or technical type, the technical background of ham radio is a good thing to have. 3) The ARS has the image of an "old white guy's hobby" in some circles. While that's not an accurate picture, losing younger hams isn't going to help things 4) Young folks have a lot to offer the ARS. If it's a numbers game why not shift gears and recruit retirees instead of chasing kids? That's been going on for a couple decades now. Look at the folks we did FD with a few years ago - most of the older folks in that crowd were licensed after age 55. The thing to do is what Dee says - recruit anyone with an interest. The retirees are far more independent than kids, Very true. they're more mature, HAH! Look at the FCC enforcement letters - you don't see many young people being cited for serious operating violations. There was a guy in Florida named Flippo or some such, and now Gerritsen in LA. They have no counterparts in the younger crowd. Or you can look at the behavior of one "retired from regular hours" frequent poster here....Maturity? on average they don't care about nonsense like instant gratification and peer pressure and they have the time the kids don't have. And in most cases they also have the money the kids don't have. Those I'll agree with. 73 de Jim, N2EY |
|
#8
June 3rd 05, 01:49 PM
|
|||
|
|||
|
If ever in doubt why the ham numbers are driving, drive over to a
college, ask students in the electronics engineering and technology classes why they are not interested in getting a ham license. Many will really not even know much about--however, when they hear the part about code, and how for all privileges you must take the code test--you lose them... I am sure now there will be a lot who disagree with this--they will ALL be over 30 and they will never ask the people who would get the licenses--why they DON'T get the licenses... Nero fiddles--Rome burns... Warmest regards, John "Mike Coslo" wrote in message ... Many people lament that there is not enough interest in Ham radio by young people. There are often many reasons given for this deficiency, and somewhat less "fixes". One of the reasons that is given very often is that Amateur radio is in some sort of competition with the Internet. Let us look at this theory. What is the competition between the two? In order to use the internet, one must of course have a computer. It must be connected to the internet, through one of several methods. Once the person has learned to turn on the computer, open a few programs or so, they have the necessary skills to work the internet. Amateur radio on the other hand, requires that a radio be used, which requires some skill in operating. An antenna system needs to be connected to this radio. Whereas it is possible to have everything set up for the Ham, most young people do not have the resources to have someone set up their system. Coupled with the possibility of putting an antenna in operation that only costs a few dollars, or even less if the youngster has good scrounging skills, the likelihood is that they would design and put up their own antenna, another skill needed. So there is a large difference in the skills needed for the two hobbies. Cell phones as competition? While there is a temptation to snipe "Get Real!", I'll address those too. What would make a person decide to take up Cell phone use as a hobby? Cell phones allow you to talk to people that you know (for the most part) and operate in the same manner as a regular telephone, save that you take the cell with you, and you are generally tied in the same building with a standard telephone. It's hard to imagine someone doing that as a hobby, although there are a lot of people who spend a lot of time using them. So what makes a youngster decide to become a Ham? We can try using the input of those who became Hams at a young age. Most of what I have heard is that the person was very interested in the technical aspects involved with getting on the air. Making antennas, building rigs, and getting them on the air was a big part of the attraction. In the end, I believe that it is young people that have a technical interest that will likely become Hams. And that, I believe, is the crux of the issue. America is not a place that encourages those who might be thinking of a technical career. We have a tendency to encourage a more "pop culture" outlook, which as often as not discounts actual learning for "street cred", and actually turns the smart person into an object of ridicule. There are levels, and there are levels. If a person is intelligent, and wants a good livelihood, you will find careers that are acceptable. You can be a movie star, or perhaps a lawyer. A whole spectrum follows, but engineering and the technical fields are not very high on that list. How often is the Techie portrayed as a sort of Bill Nye, the science guy type (at best). How about the smart woman who takes off her glasses and suddenly becomes the hot babe? Professor Frink on "The Simpsons"? Pop culture is not kind to the technical types. My experiences with programs like "bring your sons and daughters to work day" shows that almost none of the kids is even thinking of a technical field. A lot want to be lawyers. Once in the past, we were scared into thinking that maybe science and technology was maybe not such a bad thing. That happened when the commies launched Sputnik. Suddenly it seemed important that at least some of our kids decided to work in the sciences. Hopefully we will decide that again without having to be shocked into it. I am pretty firmly convinced that until we stop catering to the least common denominator, until we stop marginalizing the technically and scientifically inclined, we will not find many youngsters who want to come into our hobby. - Mike KB3EIA - |
|
#9
June 3rd 05, 08:43 PM
|
|||
|
|||
|
John Smith wrote:
If ever in doubt why the ham numbers are driving...(SNIP) You don't know how many nights I've sat up wondering where Amateur numbers were "driving" to... (UNSNIP)...drive over to a college, ask students in the electronics engineering and technology classes why they are not interested in getting a ham license. Uhhhhhhhhhhhh...classes and working to pay for the education...?!?! Many will really not even know much about--however, when they hear the part about code, and how for all privileges you must take the code test--you lose them... No... YOU will lose them...I tell them about all the great things you can do with an Amateur License, even the NO CODE TECHNICIAN which conveys all operating modes and 97% of all allocated frequencies... That Morse test only applies to less than 3% of Amateur allocations, and only if you want to operate on HF. I am sure now there will be a lot who disagree with this--they will ALL be over 30 and they will never ask the people who would get the licenses--why they DON'T get the licenses... Why should I wonder...?!?! LOTS of people don't wear dayglo fingernail polish, eat kim-chi, or have sex in phone booths... But SOME do! Nero fiddles--Rome burns... Let me guess...YOU are the tone deaf nerd in flammable footie-bottom PJ's asking him if he'll take requests. Warmest regards, Unlikely. John Uh huh... Steve, K4YZ |
|
#10
June 3rd 05, 09:21 PM
|
|||
|
|||
|
Ahhh, my typos grow more numerous with age... declining is the word I
meant to type... As I said, this argument will go on, numbers decline, and always fixes for a non-existent problem will be applied, I have watched this for decades now--code is dead and no one will accept that--they won't even ask the people who WOULD get the licenses if that is true--and it is... I have asked... As I look at it, hams are all a bunch which want to destroy the hobby and watch it die as freqs are stripped away and their numbers become too small to be of interest to anyone, let alone the FCC... they would ONLY do this if they wanted the hobby to die--but for some strange reason--wish to claim otherwise!!! ... go figure... Warmest regards, John "K4YZ" wrote in message ups.com... John Smith wrote: If ever in doubt why the ham numbers are driving...(SNIP) You don't know how many nights I've sat up wondering where Amateur numbers were "driving" to... (UNSNIP)...drive over to a college, ask students in the electronics engineering and technology classes why they are not interested in getting a ham license. Uhhhhhhhhhhhh...classes and working to pay for the education...?!?! Many will really not even know much about--however, when they hear the part about code, and how for all privileges you must take the code test--you lose them... No... YOU will lose them...I tell them about all the great things you can do with an Amateur License, even the NO CODE TECHNICIAN which conveys all operating modes and 97% of all allocated frequencies... That Morse test only applies to less than 3% of Amateur allocations, and only if you want to operate on HF. I am sure now there will be a lot who disagree with this--they will ALL be over 30 and they will never ask the people who would get the licenses--why they DON'T get the licenses... Why should I wonder...?!?! LOTS of people don't wear dayglo fingernail polish, eat kim-chi, or have sex in phone booths... But SOME do! Nero fiddles--Rome burns... Let me guess...YOU are the tone deaf nerd in flammable footie-bottom PJ's asking him if he'll take requests. Warmest regards, Unlikely. John Uh huh... Steve, K4YZ |
| Reply |
| Thread Tools | Search this Thread |
| Display Modes | |
|
|
Similar Threads
|
||||
| Thread | Forum | |||
| 197 English-language HF Broadcasts audible in NE US (23-NOV-04) | Shortwave | |||
| Amateur Radio Newslineâ„¢ Report 1402 Â June 25, 2004 | Policy | |||
| 209 English-language HF Broadcasts audible in NE US (04-APR-04) | Shortwave | |||
| Amateur Radio Newsline™ Report 1379 – January 16, 2004 | General | |||
| Amateur Radio Newsline™ Report 1379 – January 16, 2004 | Dx | |||
Hybrid Mode
