Len:

A direct quote from Jim Haynie, "The ARRL president asserted that many
Amateur Extra class licensees couldn't pass today's Element 4
examination if they had to..."
Complete article at:
http://www.arrl.org/news/stories/2004/05/22/1/?nc=1

Warmest regards,
John
wrote in message
ups.com...
From: "John Smith" on Tues 7 Jun 2005 21:18

I was gonna say that!!! (but, you did say it better!)

Thank you...but it's only a summation of what has gone on in
here for years, said by others as well as I. :-)


But glad you clarified, certainly is close to my take on the whole
thing--you think you might be the only one who has ever told them the
truth--of how it all looks in others eyes? If not, you suppose the
problem is that they didn't believe the first guy? grin

Actually there were dozens in here since 1996 trying to
point out the TRUTH, but the die-hard morsemen would have
none of it, preferring their own wonderful fantasies. Most
simply got tired of wasting their time trying to argue
against those (sometimes irrational) "believers."

One of the redoubtable fanstasizers was Jim Kehler, KH2D,
on Guam. He went so far as to "found" the fake organization
known as "No SSB International" to counter the established
No Code International (NCI) organiztion. NSI had very good
web page design but was hampered by their "leader," Kehler,
possessed of a zealot's blunt axe of words. NSI no longer
exists as any effective group. NCI continues. NCI leaders
helped to bring about the revision of S25 for international
amateur radio standards at WRC-03...along with the IARU...
even though hampered by the resistance of ARRL at the time.
Kehler had some kind of illness and moved to the contiguous
USA a few years ago. He had a website of his own (may still
have) and kept digging and digging at those code-tested he
did not like...in rather not-nice terms such as "brain-dead
old farts." :-)

The international maritime world selected GMDSS as THE
distress-and-safety automatic calling system a few years
ago, abandoning the old, romantic stalwart 500 KHz distress
frequency with its "CW" only capability. The USCG has
stopped monitoring that 500 KHz frequency. Some in here
(notably W0EX in Missouri, probably SK now) tried to tell
all "it wouldn't work!" by repeatedly quoting some retired
mariner (who was oblivious to the fact that the international
maritime folks had already tested the system and found that
it does work!). The FCC has added GMDSS commercial licensing
class categories (a few years ago) in Title 47 C.F.R. and
COLEMs do the testing for those (rather simple) written
license tests.

The ICAO (International Civil Aviation Organization) has
abandoned "CW" necessity for long over-water flights and
air carrier navigator-radio personnel were "downsized"
(laid-off, given their pension monies, waved bye-bye).
ICAO switched to voice on HF for such tasks.

Maritimers on the shipping lanes now use SSB voice and
various TORs (Teleprinter Over Radio) on HF for long-distance
communications. More expeditious for them, less error-prone
than "CW." River and harbor communications switched to VHF
voice decades ago for water-borne radio communications.

Outside of some long-ago-installed automatic station
identifiers using preset ID beepers, the only users of "CW"
in the USA are the amateur radiotelegraphers. Members of
the ARS (Archaic Radiotelegraphy Society) do some remarkable
rationalization on "why" all MUST test for morsemanship to
gain HF privileges: "It is the SECOND-most popular mode;"
"it is needed so all can communicate with third-world hams;"
"it is a 'traditional' and 'basic' mode;" "they need to know
it so that all can communicate during extreme emergencies
(perhaps when space aliens invade the earth)." The old,
tired, trite "CW gets through when nothing else will" still
surfaces even though first coined in the 1930s. Put into
terms of reality, the morsemen had to test for it and
therefore all newcomers have to do it (the "jump through the
hoops" hazing syndrome)...nya, nya. :-)

A sub-group of the mighty macho morsemen are the ex-service-
members (military service that is) who demand a militaristic
structure of defined rank-status-privilege with the "best"
privileges naturally bestowed on those with the highest rank.
[they self-define themselves as "deserving" of it] All of
the military mighty macho morsemen are anal to a point of
near-insanity on strict, unbending legalities with implied
capital-offense punishment to be immediately applied to the
poor souls who look for change in regulations. They
"believe" all the usual political propaganda statements to
be (almost) words of God and gleefully pin on their "deserved"
medals for engaging in a hobby activity that requires federal
regulation (due to the nature of EM physics).

All that fuss and furor over a HOBBY activity! None may say
nay to the divine-right of ham rule by the mighty macho
morsemen! :-)

John Smith wrote:
Len:

A direct quote from Jim Haynie, "The ARRL president asserted that many
Amateur Extra class licensees couldn't pass today's Element 4
examination if they had to..."
Complete article at:
http://www.arrl.org/news/stories/2004/05/22/1/?nc=1

Haynie's mistake is in assuming that because he might have trouble
passing it, many others would also have difficulty.

Dave K8MN

.... no, I think Haynie has it right, read the whole article... code is
no longer of any importance and the ancient amateurs could not even pass
the test given today--READ THE ARTICLE!

John
"Dave Heil" wrote in message
k.net...
John Smith wrote:
Len:

A direct quote from Jim Haynie, "The ARRL president asserted that
many Amateur Extra class licensees couldn't pass today's Element 4
examination if they had to..."
Complete article at:
http://www.arrl.org/news/stories/2004/05/22/1/?nc=1

Haynie's mistake is in assuming that because he might have trouble
passing it, many others would also have difficulty.

Dave K8MN

John Smith wrote:
... no, I think Haynie has it right, read the whole article... code is
no longer of any importance

Bull, that's NOT what he said.

and the ancient amateurs could not even pass
the test given today--

So? What's the big deal? If I had to be retested I'd simply memorize
the question pools like everybody else does these days. The EE-types
wouldn't even do that, they's just sit down and pass it. Like Haynie
said "passing a ham exam does not make you an engineer." Which is to
say that passing the writtens isn't much more than a traditional rite
of passage. Always have been for that matter.

READ THE ARTICLE!

I read the article. Now you tune around the bottom ends of the bands
for a reality check.

w3rv

Haynie said:

1) "It's not that Amateur Radio is dumbed down," he said. "People like
me have failed to keep up, and if you look in your heart, you're going
to say the same thing."

2) "...if you want people to come out of that examination room in here
to be able to design circuits--you're in the wrong hobby."

3) "I said, if we come down on the side of code, we're going to make
the no-code people mad, and if we come down on the side of the no-code,
we're going to make the code people mad..."

4) "...he predicted that the Commission will never reinstate higher code
speed requirements as some have requested."

5) "The FCC is not going to go back to 13 and 20 words per minute, and
you can take that to the bank," he predicted. "It's not going to
happen." The Commission went with the single 5 WPM requirement because
it was "sick and tired" of dealing with medical waivers, he said.

Although he has become a pretty smart "politician" and "diplomat"--it is
obvious code is given very little if any importance. Now you can argue
his words anyway you like--but you can't find one word of his which
places ANY importance on it... He HAS said old amateurs have lost sense
of reality, that is right there in no. 1) ... argue that anyway you
like--into looking like a fool...

John
wrote in message
oups.com...
John Smith wrote:
... no, I think Haynie has it right, read the whole article... code
is
no longer of any importance

Bull, that's NOT what he said.

and the ancient amateurs could not even pass
the test given today--

So? What's the big deal? If I had to be retested I'd simply memorize
the question pools like everybody else does these days. The EE-types
wouldn't even do that, they's just sit down and pass it. Like Haynie
said "passing a ham exam does not make you an engineer." Which is to
say that passing the writtens isn't much more than a traditional rite
of passage. Always have been for that matter.

READ THE ARTICLE!

I read the article. Now you tune around the bottom ends of the bands
for a reality check.

w3rv

John Smith wrote:
Haynie said:

1) "It's not that Amateur Radio is dumbed down," he said. "People like
me have failed to keep up, and if you look in your heart, you're going
to say the same thing."

He's right on the money. But many hams are *not* like him, yes?

2) "...if you want people to come out of that examination room in here
to be able to design circuits--you're in the wrong hobby."

Of course, that's been obvious to everybody else around here since
somebody first started selling spark rigs out of a catalog. Is it
somehow imperative that hams must be able to design current-tech
circuits or the sky will fall on the hobby? What's your point?

3) "I said, if we come down on the side of code, we're going to make
the no-code people mad, and if we come down on the side of the no-code,
we're going to make the code people mad..."

Ah, but then he continued ". . so the best thing for us to do is be
evenhanded, and make everybody mad," Haynie said, tongue-in-cheek. "And
I think we're doing a good job of it." "

In other words the League has ducked out of the code teat war this time
and put in the hands of the FCC.

Do you have a problem with that?? I sure don't.

Your "selective snippages" are as a bare minimum a bit of comic relief.


4) "...he predicted that the Commission will never reinstate higher code
speed requirements as some have requested."

OBVIOUSLY . . wtf . . ?!

5) "The FCC is not going to go back to 13 and 20 words per minute, and
you can take that to the bank," he predicted. "It's not going to
happen." The Commission went with the single 5 WPM requirement because
it was "sick and tired" of dealing with medical waivers, he said.

This is astounding new info or what??

Although he has become a pretty smart "politician" and "diplomat"--it is
obvious code is given very little if any importance. Now you can argue
his words anyway you like--but you can't find one word of his which
places ANY importance on it... He HAS said old amateurs have lost sense
of reality, that is right there in no. 1) ... argue that anyway you
like--into looking like a fool...

Smitty I'm about 99% in agreement with what Haynie stated, I'm not
arguing his words at all, I'm arguing YOUR words. Which are goofy,
naive attempts to twist reality around which we all see thru. You're
quite terrible at this game you're trying to play John but hang around
here awhile and watch how the real pros harpoon reality in this group .
.. maybe you'll get better at the game.

.. . speaking of reality . . in the end when all the dust settles CW is
everywhere on the bands today and it's gonna still be on the bands long
after you and I have both expired. Get comfortable with it my good man
because neither of us can do a bloody thing about it one way or
another. THAT's the real reality.

And by the way what's your callsign?

Good night.

John

w3v

You just dismissed the fact that Haynie is seeing a real problem here,
he is beginning to tell hams to stop acting like such immature jerks and
get with the program--you take these words are turn them into him giving
you an "Atta Boy!"
If you are fool enough to believe that you will have to... such denial,
avoidance and BS has stagnated us to the point where all there are, are
a bunch of guys out there too old to be of interest to QSO with--the
young guys know that and you can tell them different till the cows come
home--it will not change one thing...
I am 52 and most are too old for me... long winded rants about
yesteryear and such is a real turn off to this guy... I cringe when I
see the expressions on the young mens face who hear it on my demos of
radio...
You sit there thinking all is well--I can tell you are past anything but
an argument for maintaining status quo...
You really mean to tell me you feel the bands out there are "congested?"
Tell someone without a radio--they just might believe you...
We both hear Haynies words you think he is saying, "Good Job Guys!" I
challenge that all right, I hear him saying, "Get with it old fools!!!"

John

wrote in message
oups.com...


John Smith wrote:
Haynie said:

1) "It's not that Amateur Radio is dumbed down," he said. "People
like
me have failed to keep up, and if you look in your heart, you're
going
to say the same thing."

He's right on the money. But many hams are *not* like him, yes?

2) "...if you want people to come out of that examination room in
here
to be able to design circuits--you're in the wrong hobby."

Of course, that's been obvious to everybody else around here since
somebody first started selling spark rigs out of a catalog. Is it
somehow imperative that hams must be able to design current-tech
circuits or the sky will fall on the hobby? What's your point?

3) "I said, if we come down on the side of code, we're going to make
the no-code people mad, and if we come down on the side of the
no-code,
we're going to make the code people mad..."

Ah, but then he continued ". . so the best thing for us to do is be
evenhanded, and make everybody mad," Haynie said, tongue-in-cheek.
"And
I think we're doing a good job of it." "

In other words the League has ducked out of the code teat war this
time
and put in the hands of the FCC.

Do you have a problem with that?? I sure don't.

Your "selective snippages" are as a bare minimum a bit of comic
relief.


4) "...he predicted that the Commission will never reinstate higher
code
speed requirements as some have requested."

OBVIOUSLY . . wtf . . ?!

5) "The FCC is not going to go back to 13 and 20 words per minute,
and
you can take that to the bank," he predicted. "It's not going to
happen." The Commission went with the single 5 WPM requirement
because
it was "sick and tired" of dealing with medical waivers, he said.

This is astounding new info or what??

Although he has become a pretty smart "politician" and "diplomat"--it
is
obvious code is given very little if any importance. Now you can
argue
his words anyway you like--but you can't find one word of his which
places ANY importance on it... He HAS said old amateurs have lost
sense
of reality, that is right there in no. 1) ... argue that anyway you
like--into looking like a fool...

Smitty I'm about 99% in agreement with what Haynie stated, I'm not
arguing his words at all, I'm arguing YOUR words. Which are goofy,
naive attempts to twist reality around which we all see thru. You're
quite terrible at this game you're trying to play John but hang around
here awhile and watch how the real pros harpoon reality in this group
.
. maybe you'll get better at the game.

. . speaking of reality . . in the end when all the dust settles CW is
everywhere on the bands today and it's gonna still be on the bands
long
after you and I have both expired. Get comfortable with it my good man
because neither of us can do a bloody thing about it one way or
another. THAT's the real reality.

And by the way what's your callsign?

Good night.

John

w3v

wrote:
John Smith wrote:
Haynie said:

1) "It's not that Amateur Radio is dumbed down," he
said. "People like
me have failed to keep up, and if you look in your heart,
you're going
to say the same thing."

He's right on the money. But many hams are *not* like him, yes?

Yes.


2) "...if you want people to come out of that examination
room in here
to be able to design circuits--you're in the wrong hobby."

Heck, I went *into* the examination room able to design circuits...

Of course, that's been obvious to everybody else around here
since
somebody first started selling spark rigs out of a catalog.

Yep. "He tightened all the loose screws"

Is it
somehow imperative that hams must be able to design current-tech
circuits or the sky will fall on the hobby? What's your point?

3) "I said, if we come down on the side of code, we're going
to make
the no-code people mad, and if we come down on the side of
the no-code,
we're going to make the code people mad..."

Ah, but then he continued ". . so the best thing for us to do is be
evenhanded, and make everybody mad," Haynie said, tongue-in-
cheek. "And
I think we're doing a good job of it." "

In other words the League has ducked out of the code test war
this time and put in the hands of the FCC.

They realize a no-win situation when they see it. Also, the ARRL
BoD has a wide range of opinions on the issue, so they came up
with a compromise and went on to other issues.

Do you have a problem with that?? I sure don't.

Your "selective snippages" are as a bare minimum
a bit of comic relief.

4) "...he predicted that the Commission will never reinstate higher code speed requirements as some have requested."

OBVIOUSLY . . wtf . . ?!

He's just letting people know not to expect it. Then again,
if you don't ask you'll never get.

5) "The FCC is not going to go back to 13 and 20 words
per minute, and
you can take that to the bank," he predicted. "It's not
going to
happen." The Commission went with the single 5 WPM
requirement because
it was "sick and tired" of dealing with medical waivers,
he said.

This is astounding new info or what??

Not at all.

Frankly, I'm simply amazed that FCC didn't just dump Element
1 two years ago when the treaty changed at WRC 2003. All they
needed was a one-paragraph Memorandum Report and Order saying
that they'd dealt with the issue back in 2000, and pending further
changes, everybody who passes any of the written tests
for a US ham license gets code test credit too. Or some such verbiage,
just like they did when they waived the code sending test.

But FCC didn't do that, even after getting a pile of proposals
to do so. In a month or so it will be two years and there isn't
even an NPRM out yet. If they go the entire NPRM cycle, it
could be a year or more before the rules change - *if* they
change.

Although he has become a pretty smart "politician"
and "diplomat"--it is
obvious code is given very little if any importance.

By whom?

The code *test* may be dropped, (actually I think it's very likely) but
Morse Code itself is a very big part of amateur radio in 2005.

Now you can argue
his words anyway you like--but you can't find one word of
his which
places ANY importance on it...

On the *test*.

He HAS said old amateurs have lost sense
of reality, that is right there in no. 1) ... argue that
anyway you
like--into looking like a fool...

Smitty I'm about 99% in agreement with what Haynie stated, I'm not
arguing his words at all, I'm arguing YOUR words. Which are
goofy,
naive attempts to twist reality around which we all see thru.
You're
quite terrible at this game you're trying to play John but hang around
here awhile and watch how the real pros harpoon reality in this group .
. maybe you'll get better at the game.

Good advice!

. . speaking of reality . . in the end when all the dust
settles CW is
everywhere on the bands today and it's gonna still be on the
bands long
after you and I have both expired. Get comfortable with it my
good man
because neither of us can do a bloody thing about it one way or
another. THAT's the real reality.

Tune down the low ends of the HF bands, in the evenings when most
of the younger folks aren't tied up with work, school, kids, etc.
There's a lot more going on than the voice modes on the high ends.

And by the way what's your callsign?

Good night.

73 de Jim, N2EY

John Smith wrote:

Haynie said:

1) "It's not that Amateur Radio is dumbed down," he said. "People like
me have failed to keep up, and if you look in your heart, you're going
to say the same thing."

That happens to a lot of 'em. Odd, that, I think keeping up is a lot of
the fun!

2) "...if you want people to come out of that examination room in here
to be able to design circuits--you're in the wrong hobby."

I wonder if that ever was the case in the old days. Somehow I doubt it.


3) "I said, if we come down on the side of code, we're going to make
the no-code people mad, and if we come down on the side of the no-code,
we're going to make the code people mad..."

So ya should give it a good thinkin' through, and do what you thing is
right.


4) "...he predicted that the Commission will never reinstate higher code
speed requirements as some have requested."

5) "The FCC is not going to go back to 13 and 20 words per minute, and
you can take that to the bank," he predicted. "It's not going to
happen." The Commission went with the single 5 WPM requirement because
it was "sick and tired" of dealing with medical waivers, he said.

Although he has become a pretty smart "politician" and "diplomat"--it is
obvious code is given very little if any importance. Now you can argue
his words anyway you like--but you can't find one word of his which
places ANY importance on it... He HAS said old amateurs have lost sense
of reality,

Actually, that staement isn't a quote, it is filler from the writer. He
may have said some things about older hams, but it is a long way from
telling them they have lost sense of reality.



that is right there in no. 1) ... argue that anyway you
like--into looking like a fool...

Just sounded close to a quote. That's the problem. While I agree with
what Haynie has said, I think you are injecting your own opinion into
what he said.

I've been a ham for 6 years now. I came up through the new system. An
awful lot of the oddballs on the air appear to have been licensed for
quite a while, and I assume they are tested to more than 5wpm. Yeah,
someone will probably point out the old waiver system. But I doubt that
every kook and jammer got a waiver.

The new guys and gals are not any worse than the old ones.

- Mike KB3EIA -

John Smith wrote:
... no, I think Haynie has it right, read the whole article... code is
no longer of any importance and the ancient amateurs could not even pass
the test given today--READ THE ARTICLE!

I read the article. Haynie may speak for his own abilities but not
mine. Morse code is of no consequence to one who doesn't wish to
communicate using CW. I find it quite important and quite enjoyable,
top-posting "John".

Dave K8MN

John
"Dave Heil" wrote in message
k.net...

John Smith wrote:

Len:

A direct quote from Jim Haynie, "The ARRL president asserted that
many Amateur Extra class licensees couldn't pass today's Element 4
examination if they had to..."
Complete article at:
http://www.arrl.org/news/stories/2004/05/22/1/?nc=1

Haynie's mistake is in assuming that because he might have trouble
passing it, many others would also have difficulty.

Dave K8MN