"John Smith" wrote in message
...
Mike:

Let me break this to you gently, what you have to say is just not
important in the whole scheme of things--a year from now we will see what
we all feel as whole--after debate and argument...

I didn't come here for you to teach me english--rant on if you must--just
know it is ignored...

No, there is little need for interpretation of what you say, it is
obvious:
1) there is no problem
2) even if a problem exists--no reason to worry
3) we need not do anything
4) I (Mike, meaning YOU) am happy, everyone else shut up and go away
5) status quo is all which matters
6) etc, etc, etc

I don't make personal attacks--however, if the truth offends someone, so
be it...

John


However looking in the wrong places for solutions won't solve the problem
either.

You want to repeat solutions that haven't worked.

You ignore the concept that the average age of our entire population is
rising.

You ignore the idea that radio will only appeal to certain types of people.

You ignore the fact that many people simply don't know about ham radio.

You ignore the fact that all hobby activities are having trouble getting new
members because now everyone is split over more activities than ever before
and that it's not unique to ham radio.

You think one "magic bullet" (eliminating the code test) will fix the
problem.

Changing the testing requirements are highly unlikely to cause a significant
impact because they do not address the main issues.

Dee D. Flint, N8UZE

Dee Flint wrote:
"John Smith" wrote in message
...

Mike:

Let me break this to you gently, what you have to say is just not
important in the whole scheme of things--a year from now we will see what
we all feel as whole--after debate and argument...

I didn't come here for you to teach me english--rant on if you must--just
know it is ignored...

No, there is little need for interpretation of what you say, it is
obvious:
1) there is no problem
2) even if a problem exists--no reason to worry
3) we need not do anything
4) I (Mike, meaning YOU) am happy, everyone else shut up and go away
5) status quo is all which matters
6) etc, etc, etc

I don't make personal attacks--however, if the truth offends someone, so
be it...

John



Dee steps into the ring and spars for a couple seconds.........

However looking in the wrong places for solutions won't solve the problem
either.

You want to repeat solutions that haven't worked.

She lands a quick right.


You ignore the concept that the average age of our entire population is
rising.

Quick feint...

You ignore the idea that radio will only appeal to certain types of people.

A few hits to the midsection....

You ignore the fact that many people simply don't know about ham radio.

another feint..

You ignore the fact that all hobby activities are having trouble getting new
members because now everyone is split over more activities than ever before
and that it's not unique to ham radio.

Followed by a quick hit to the head.

You think one "magic bullet" (eliminating the code test) will fix the
problem.

Stunning the opponent, who falls to the canvas.....

Changing the testing requirements are highly unlikely to cause a significant
impact because they do not address the main issues.

And at last, a scene reminding me of the famous shot of Muhammad Ali
standing over Jim Frasier....

And since we are making sports comparisons,

Game, Set, Match, Dee.

- Mike KB3EIA -

(who is sitting here tonight, listening to my newly resurrected
Heathkit HW-22 tube rig, while using my other radio to work psk-31, and
typing a few notes via the internet....)

It's all good......

- Mike KB3EIA -

Yep, more attacks, no solutions offered... but then, that is quite
natural for here... now back to:

1) analyze the problem to death.
2) claim there is nothing wrong
3) claim even if there is something wrong, nothing will work to fix it.
4) pretend no one notices what is really going on
5) go back to the few old guys on the net and rant with them.
6) pretend that we will live forever
7) argue one new license a year is enough
8) don't ask the people who are NOT hams why they don't get a license
9) if they tell us why--deny that it is a valid reason
10) carry on as if it is still yesterday.
11) etc, etc, etc...

.... yawn...

John

"Mike Coslo" wrote in message
...
Dee Flint wrote:
"John Smith" wrote in message
...

Mike:

Let me break this to you gently, what you have to say is just not
important in the whole scheme of things--a year from now we will see
what we all feel as whole--after debate and argument...

I didn't come here for you to teach me english--rant on if you
must--just know it is ignored...

No, there is little need for interpretation of what you say, it is
obvious:
1) there is no problem
2) even if a problem exists--no reason to worry
3) we need not do anything
4) I (Mike, meaning YOU) am happy, everyone else shut up and go away
5) status quo is all which matters
6) etc, etc, etc

I don't make personal attacks--however, if the truth offends someone,
so be it...

John



Dee steps into the ring and spars for a couple seconds.........

However looking in the wrong places for solutions won't solve the
problem either.

You want to repeat solutions that haven't worked.

She lands a quick right.


You ignore the concept that the average age of our entire population
is rising.

Quick feint...

You ignore the idea that radio will only appeal to certain types of
people.

A few hits to the midsection....

You ignore the fact that many people simply don't know about ham
radio.

another feint..

You ignore the fact that all hobby activities are having trouble
getting new members because now everyone is split over more
activities than ever before and that it's not unique to ham radio.

Followed by a quick hit to the head.

You think one "magic bullet" (eliminating the code test) will fix the
problem.

Stunning the opponent, who falls to the canvas.....

Changing the testing requirements are highly unlikely to cause a
significant impact because they do not address the main issues.

And at last, a scene reminding me of the famous shot of Muhammad Ali
standing over Jim Frasier....

And since we are making sports comparisons,

Game, Set, Match, Dee.

- Mike KB3EIA -

(who is sitting here tonight, listening to my newly resurrected
Heathkit HW-22 tube rig, while using my other radio to work psk-31,
and typing a few notes via the internet....)

It's all good......

- Mike KB3EIA -

"John Smith" wrote in message
...
Yep, more attacks, no solutions offered... but then, that is quite
natural for here... now back to:

1) analyze the problem to death.
2) claim there is nothing wrong
3) claim even if there is something wrong, nothing will work to fix it.
4) pretend no one notices what is really going on
5) go back to the few old guys on the net and rant with them.
6) pretend that we will live forever
7) argue one new license a year is enough
8) don't ask the people who are NOT hams why they don't get a license
9) if they tell us why--deny that it is a valid reason
10) carry on as if it is still yesterday.
11) etc, etc, etc...

... yawn...

John


First of all John I see little humor in this discussion bringing into the
mix those poor souls with Alzheimer's syndrome ..... It is like the idiot
who posts here with references to colostomy bags ...... I sincerely hope
that either of you never have to go through that in your lives.

I am still awaiting John for specifics on what you have done to foster an
appreciation in younger people for the service.
General bitching about the way things are won't cut it ...that my friend is
too easy and is the tact of a pontificating twit. Yesterday was a day I
will always remember at our club meeting. Matt, a teen with a LD passed his
no code. He studied his backside off for the test ....took it 3 times
before. I have more respect for that young fellow than incessant moaners I
see on this list and in other places.

KI3R Tom Popovic Belle Vernon Pa.

Garigue:

True, I would get very little or no enjoyment out of poking fun at
people with REAL disabilities--not disabilities someone imposes upon
oneself...

.... so, kinda of obvious I suspect some may be able to rise above the
low levels of self-serving motivations they have sunk too... and these
are the ones I poke fun at--ya suppose? grin

.... however, my optimism has not been well placed..

John

"garigue" wrote in message
...

"John Smith" wrote in message
...
Yep, more attacks, no solutions offered... but then, that is quite
natural for here... now back to:

1) analyze the problem to death.
2) claim there is nothing wrong
3) claim even if there is something wrong, nothing will work to fix
it.
4) pretend no one notices what is really going on
5) go back to the few old guys on the net and rant with them.
6) pretend that we will live forever
7) argue one new license a year is enough
8) don't ask the people who are NOT hams why they don't get a license
9) if they tell us why--deny that it is a valid reason
10) carry on as if it is still yesterday.
11) etc, etc, etc...

... yawn...

John


First of all John I see little humor in this discussion bringing into
the
mix those poor souls with Alzheimer's syndrome ..... It is like the
idiot
who posts here with references to colostomy bags ...... I sincerely
hope
that either of you never have to go through that in your lives.

I am still awaiting John for specifics on what you have done to
foster an
appreciation in younger people for the service.
General bitching about the way things are won't cut it ...that my
friend is
too easy and is the tact of a pontificating twit. Yesterday was a day
I
will always remember at our club meeting. Matt, a teen with a LD
passed his
no code. He studied his backside off for the test ....took it 3 times
before. I have more respect for that young fellow than incessant
moaners I
see on this list and in other places.

KI3R Tom Popovic Belle Vernon Pa.

garigue wrote:


First of all John I see little humor in this discussion bringing into the
mix those poor souls with Alzheimer's syndrome ..... It is like the idiot
who posts here with references to colostomy bags ......

That's wogie wussman for sure, he has a real fixation for colostomy
bags. Don't ask, you don't want to know why.

I am still awaiting John for specifics on what you have done to foster an
appreciation in younger people for the service.

Nothing, all he can do is complain about the older generation.

General bitching about the way things are won't cut it ...that my friend is
too easy and is the tact of a pontificating twit.

I think you nailed johnnyboy.

Yesterday was a day I
will always remember at our club meeting. Matt, a teen with a LD passed his
no code. He studied his backside off for the test ....took it 3 times
before. I have more respect for that young fellow than incessant moaners I
see on this list and in other places.

KI3R Tom Popovic Belle Vernon Pa.

Hooray for Matt!

From: "garigue" on Tues 21 Jun 2005 22:44


"John Smith" wrote in message
...
Yep, more attacks, no solutions offered... but then, that is quite
natural for here... now back to:

1) analyze the problem to death.
2) claim there is nothing wrong
3) claim even if there is something wrong, nothing will work to fix it.
4) pretend no one notices what is really going on
5) go back to the few old guys on the net and rant with them.
6) pretend that we will live forever
7) argue one new license a year is enough
8) don't ask the people who are NOT hams why they don't get a license
9) if they tell us why--deny that it is a valid reason
10) carry on as if it is still yesterday.
11) etc, etc, etc...

... yawn...

John

First of all John I see little humor in this discussion bringing into the
mix those poor souls with Alzheimer's syndrome ..... It is like the idiot
who posts here with references to colostomy bags ...... I sincerely hope
that either of you never have to go through that in your lives.

Wow. A LECTURE!

Tom, try to calm down and look at the big picture. Growing
dementia ("Alzheimer's") in older people and is a terrible
thing to observe up-close and personal. I'm quite familiar with
that, having watched my own mother go through that, little bit
by little bit every day, the last four years of her life in a
nursing home. I visited her every day and could see others in
the same hospital succumb slowly...and share the inner turmoil
of their family and friends watching their loved ones. The
same with those other patients having various physical damage
from injury or illness. Three hundred beds in that one
single-floor facility, seen every day.

Go ahead, make my day, try to lecture ME on "taking all that so
very, very seriously" about handicaps and illnesses...

I am still awaiting John for specifics on what you have done to foster an
appreciation in younger people for the service.

Not a requirement of amateur radio licensing, Tom.

General bitching about the way things are won't cut it ...that my friend is
too easy and is the tact of a pontificating twit.

...and you are as guilty as anything of doing the SAME
"pontificating" about Alzheimer's suffering.

It's no more, no less of a pontification than all the high and
mighty amateur extras in here praising the glory and majesty
and "necessity" of morse code testing or rank-status-privilege
"due them" in a HOBBY activity involving radio.

Yesterday was a day I
will always remember at our club meeting. Matt, a teen with a LD passed his
no code. He studied his backside off for the test ....took it 3 times
before. I have more respect for that young fellow than incessant moaners I
see on this list and in other places.

Now that's just a wonderful thing...out of the blue comes a nice
MORAL LECTURE about a younger person "overcoming all obstacles"
"despite physical handicaps" "working hard, hard, hard to pass
a test." Reads like second-rate Reader's Digest material.

I've never met that young person, Tom, just like YOU have never
met hundreds of other sufferers of various things...which I don't
mention in here because they don't apply to THE SUBJECTS AT HAND
either.

At stake is some federal regulations regarding amateur radio, a
HOBBY activity, a recreational pursuit done for personal
enjoyment. "Overcoming obstacles" is NOT a part of the overall
picture. Morality lectures to others don't help a bit...except
to cure the lecturer's mild rage at others not taking things
so damn "seriously" as the lecturer does.

Oh, wow, "overcoming the obstacle of learning morse code!"
Terrific emotionally-loaded over-limit baggage. The real question
ought to be the TEST itself and why it "must" be passed just to
enjoy a radio hobby below 30 MHz. But, that isn't a thing for you
or anyone else who has already passed that TEST, is it? The real
purpose is to keep on with the myth where "hard, hard WORK" is
such a "moral necessity" and perhaps - in a screwball perverse
way - somehow closer to Godliness?

I've known, seen, been around all sorts of folks with handicaps,
just as I've already legally and successfully operated on HF in
five other radio services other than amateur radio. Any TEST
for a LICENSE is just a regulatory tool of the federal government.
That license is NOT an academic achievement, is NOT soem magic
talisman that one "Must" posssess in order to operate any radio
transmitter below 30 MHz. Morsemanship isn't a "qualification"
to operate below 30 MHz...I was long-ago perfectly qualified to
operate a radio transmitter below 30 MHz without morse code smarts
and did. That morse TEST is an artificiality of old-time emotion
that has long-since passed its usefulness. The TEST itself, and
the license, is just a regulatory tool...for a radio HOBBY.

Those who want to preach a ham radio LIFESTYLE will be outraged
at the above. TS. I got a new punch and am set for lots of
cards. I'm a bit sick and tired of these emotionally-loaded
MORALITY plays by the self-righteous unfolding in this stage.
A lot of readers are feeling the same way. Put on a bad
performance and you get bad reviews. TS. That's show biz...

First of all John I see little humor in this discussion bringing into the
mix those poor souls with Alzheimer's syndrome ..... It is like the idiot
who posts here with references to colostomy bags ...... I sincerely hope
that either of you never have to go through that in your lives.

Wow. A LECTURE!

No lecture the Mr. Len just that I can't see injecting this in to the mix
......



Tom, try to calm down and look at the big picture. Growing
dementia ("Alzheimer's") in older people and is a terrible
thing to observe up-close and personal. I'm quite familiar with
that, having watched my own mother go through that, little bit
by little bit every day, the last four years of her life in a
nursing home. I visited her every day and could see others in
the same hospital succumb slowly...and share the inner turmoil
of their family and friends watching their loved ones.

Then I am sure you would agree that we do not need to name call and use
those problems as a source of a cheap shot....


The
same with those other patients having various physical damage
from injury or illness. Three hundred beds in that one
single-floor facility, seen every day.

Am I lecturing you Leonard ????..don't think so ... I just don't like to
see peoples misfortunes utilized for cheap shots for whatever reasons ....
I really think that we on this group are ALL above that.


Go ahead, make my day, try to lecture ME on "taking all that so
very, very seriously" about handicaps and illnesses...

Again where did you pull that from Len .... did I say you took those shots
as mentioned above ???? Don't put words in my mouth there Len ..... the
post was not addressed to LA


I am still awaiting John for specifics on what you have done to foster
an
appreciation in younger people for the service.

Not a requirement of amateur radio licensing, Tom.

Quite right Len but as a "hobby" don't we have a bit....just a bit of
responsiblity to help others .....I have seen your postings on other groups
where you have done the same .....and not to be patronizing but to your
credit.


General bitching about the way things are won't cut it ...that my friend
is
too easy and is the tact of a pontificating twit.

...and you are as guilty as anything of doing the SAME
"pontificating" about Alzheimer's suffering.

Just as you brought your poor mom into the mix ???????

Nope general bitching is just that .....give me some positives .....


It's no more, no less of a pontification than all the high and
mighty amateur extras in here praising the glory and majesty
and "necessity" of morse code testing or rank-status-privilege
"due them" in a HOBBY activity involving radio.



Now Len you don't know me that well do you ..... I do not consider myself
the morse elite ......I have suggested things in the past regarding the
place the mode, excuse me protocol, could be better served not only for the
amature service but for CW itself ....


Yesterday was a day I
will always remember at our club meeting. Matt, a teen with a LD passed
his
no code. He studied his backside off for the test ....took it 3 times
before. I have more respect for that young fellow than incessant
moaners I
see on this list and in other places.


Now that's just a wonderful thing...out of the blue comes a nice
MORAL LECTURE about a younger person "overcoming all obstacles"
"despite physical handicaps" "working hard, hard, hard to pass
a test." Reads like second-rate Reader's Digest material.

No Len it reads like a person despite some real problems showing some
inititive and passing a test honestly. Your second rate Reader's Digest
comment is a cheap shot. And may I add CW had nothing to do with this test
as Matt got his No-code tech .....



I've never met that young person, Tom, just like YOU have never
met hundreds of other sufferers of various things...which I don't
mention in here because they don't apply to THE SUBJECTS AT HAND
either.


Oh no look out here comes the off topic lecture ..... The above comments
were taken from and about the discussions on this group. Please point out
to me where my comment have not been ...THE SUBJECT AT HAND .....



At stake is some federal regulations regarding amateur radio, a
HOBBY activity, a recreational pursuit done for personal
enjoyment. "Overcoming obstacles" is NOT a part of the overall
picture.

Oh yes it is Leonard ...look at the Handiham program and what is done there
...... those people aren't overcoming obstacles ???? I have worked many
people on the air who have multiple problems where this "hobby" has been a
source of enjoyment over the years.



Morality lectures to others don't help a bit...except
to cure the lecturer's mild rage at others not taking things
so damn "seriously" as the lecturer does.

No rage here Leonard ....just discussion .....and as far as taking things
seriously on this group .....the overwhelming number of Leonard posts over
the years sure bears whose rage is in this arena.




Oh, wow, "overcoming the obstacle of learning morse code!"

Where in the heck have I mentioned anythng about overcoming the obstacles of
CW in this latest round of comments????? Again trying to put words in
my mouth Len ....please don't do that ...it really is good engineering
practice ......



Terrific emotionally-loaded over-limit baggage. The real question
ought to be the TEST itself and why it "must" be passed just to
enjoy a radio hobby below 30 MHz.

Have any of my posts with in the last several years reflected the CW or die
mentality ?????




But, that isn't a thing for you
or anyone else who has already passed that TEST, is it? The real
purpose is to keep on with the myth where "hard, hard WORK" is
such a "moral necessity" and perhaps - in a screwball perverse
way - somehow closer to Godliness?

Here we go again with the church of CW ......frankly I am tired of this tact
....it belongs with CW always gets through and the old buddywhip-standard
transmission saw ....



I've known, seen, been around all sorts of folks with handicaps,
just as I've already legally and successfully operated on HF in
five other radio services other than amateur radio. Any TEST
for a LICENSE is just a regulatory tool of the federal government.

Maybe not for you and your position in the radio kingdom but for many it is
an achievement and I for one will not belittle those who worked for and
achieved a ticket honestly ...no matter what class it is ....





That license is NOT an academic achievement, is NOT soem magic
talisman that one "Must" posssess in order to operate any radio
transmitter below 30 MHz. Morsemanship isn't a "qualification"
to operate below 30 MHz...I was long-ago perfectly qualified to
operate a radio transmitter below 30 MHz without morse code smarts
and did. That morse TEST is an artificiality of old-time emotion
that has long-since passed its usefulness. The TEST itself, and
the license, is just a regulatory tool...for a radio HOBBY.

Well Len I will go along with most of that except that the govinmint says it
is a service ....na I don't want to get in to that argument .....better
things to do ....





Those who want to preach a ham radio LIFESTYLE will be outraged
at the above. TS. I got a new punch and am set for lots of
cards. I'm a bit sick and tired of these emotionally-loaded
MORALITY plays by the self-righteous unfolding in this stage.
A lot of readers are feeling the same way. Put on a bad
performance and you get bad reviews. TS. That's show biz...



I am not outraged Len ... bad reviews ....could care less ......my lifestyle
does not revolve around hamradio ..... nor does it revolve around incessant
posting about worn out arguments over the last number of years as apparently
yours has .....

Take care Leonard ....beep beep ......

From: "garigue" on Wed 22 Jun 2005 22:38


First of all John I see little humor in this discussion bringing into the
mix those poor souls with Alzheimer's syndrome ..... It is like the idiot
who posts here with references to colostomy bags ...... I sincerely hope
that either of you never have to go through that in your lives.

Wow. A LECTURE!

No lecture the Mr. Len just that I can't see injecting this in to the mix

snip

Tom, you had a LECTURE going whether you meant it or not.

That happens every once in a while when someone feels like they
have to proctor morality or preach "good works."

In truth, I posted a STRONG response...but that's because
I've seen a half century's worth of such LECTURES all about
HAVING to "help the young ones" or all about some deaf, blind,
dumb quadriplegic person "finally passing their ham test." As
if the ham test is some Holy Grail to seek, the ultimate test of
one's life?

Amateur radio is a HOBBY. De facto if not de jure. [that means
"in fact" even though it is not explicitly defined in some law
or regulation as such] NO ONE "owes anyone" for something they
do when no money has changed hands. If someone feels obligated
to another, fine, that's a personal thing to that someone. But,
that is NOT in any rules or regulations, and its "requirement"
is just inside some folks' heads...besides the Sumner editorial
pages in QST.

If you or anyone else has TRUE enthusiasm for some hobby, you
can PROJECT that to others and share the enthusiasm. If you
know more than they do, you can - if you are still enthusiastic
and want to share - help them out by increasing their knowledge.
Your enthusiasm for something will help you impart such new
knowledge to them. Even after over a half century of being
involved in radio-electronics, I'm still fascinated by it and
am still enthusiastic about learning more...but that does NOT
mean that I "MUST" "teach others" or any of that false "good
works" stuff for THEM. That's not any sort of "moral obligation"
that I "MUST" do in any hobby. Nor for anyone else with their
hobby. Hobbies are personal activities done for personal
enjoyment and recreation purposes.

As to the "service" word in Title 47, C.F.R., if you ask the FCC
they will tell you it is "a regulatory term denoting the type and
kind of radio activity being regulated." It does NOT imply some
grandiose "national service" at all. Ah, but "the FCC says so"
say many, not understanding what the FCC is saying...and then
they get all confused when I point out other services such as
the Citizens Band Radio SERVICE, the Radio Control Radio SERVICE,
the Family Radio SERVICE and so forth. It's in Title 47 in
nearly every Part.

Now, some folks seem to be tuckered out by all the lifting of
THEIR emotional baggage, at the use of "certain words" and
"certain phrases." In here lots seem to be carrying very OLD
baggage, complete with those stickers from olden times as if
they were there (even though they couldn't have) plastered all
over that "baggage." Sorry, the boat don't go there no more.
Time travel to "happier times" hasn't been invented yet. FCC
rules and regulations apply to time NOW and there's lots more
citizens of the U. S. of A. who MIGHT be interested in a radio
license and have much more modern "baggage" without all those
old-time travel stickers on it. Old-timers do NOT "own" the
hobby despite what they think and shout and demand.

Some folks get a big kick out of being "re-enactors" of every-
thing from midieval life to the American Civil War. Fine. If
that's what makes them happy, I say "have fun" and go for it.
But, trying to ENFORCE such "re-enactment" by keeping hard and
fast rules in LAW to freeze an activity in old, outmoded
standards and practices goes beyond the reasonable. LAW applies
to ALL, not just a bunch of old-timers trying to re-enact a
time when most of them did not exist. The future cannot be
eliminated by mere legislation holding it static.