wrote:
http://www.getboost.com/dz/sienna.htm


My thoughts.

First, the unit has a lot of promise. While I think I prefer separate
components between the computer and the rig for flexibility, this setup
might just be fun to use.

Next, I don't buy the teeny florescent screen rationale. My idea of the
modern integrated rig is more along the line of looking like a laptop,
with a folding large screen on top of the RF portions of the box. But
that's just me.

Interesting that they chose an LDG autotuner. This is a concept that
might be expanded upon.

Don't like the computer interface screenshot.

I really hope that they do well. I do think the price point is too
high. I would be willing to pay extra for an American made unit, but 3K
for the entry level, and 6K for the works unit is pretty high.

Unless of course, the rig has outstanding performance. I would love to
see some test results.

Hoping that they can sell enough to expand the concept, because it is a
good one....

- Mike KB3EIA -

Mike Coslo wrote:

Hoping that they can sell enough to expand the concept, because it is a
good one....

I don't think that's going to happen, Mike.

First off, I don't think very many folks will drop $3K to $6K on a
radio that comes incomplete, computer or not. I can spend a heck of a
lot of LESS money and get more radio AND computer for my bucks!

Secondly, it's a "kit" only in the sense that it does come
"disassembled". The potential buyer is actually paying the
"manufacturer" for the privilege of him (the "manufacturer) not having
to pay an assembly line.

Lastly, he brags about the "kit" being "built in America" because
the owner "builds it right here in America". I wish I had the spare
change to drop to buy one for no other reason than to see where all of
the pre-assembled boards are actually assembled. No doubt in some
PacRim nation where the guy who REALLY built it wouldn't be able to
afford it in a lifetime.

73

Steve, K4YZ

K4YZ wrote:

Mike Coslo wrote:


Hoping that they can sell enough to expand the concept, because it is a
good one....


I don't think that's going to happen, Mike.

First off, I don't think very many folks will drop $3K to $6K on a
radio that comes incomplete, computer or not. I can spend a heck of a
lot of LESS money and get more radio AND computer for my bucks!

Secondly, it's a "kit" only in the sense that it does come
"disassembled". The potential buyer is actually paying the
"manufacturer" for the privilege of him (the "manufacturer) not having
to pay an assembly line.

Lastly, he brags about the "kit" being "built in America" because
the owner "builds it right here in America". I wish I had the spare
change to drop to buy one for no other reason than to see where all of
the pre-assembled boards are actually assembled. No doubt in some
PacRim nation where the guy who REALLY built it wouldn't be able to
afford it in a lifetime.

There aren't nearly as many components built in the U.S. as in the past,
Steve. Even back in the late seventies and early eighties, most solid
state devices were produced in Mexico, Maylasia, Hong Kong, Taiwan, etc.

Among the reasons that I continue to use Ten-Tec gear is that families
in the U.S. receive pay checks when I do so. Ten-Tec manufactures their
enclosures, plastic components, variable caps and the like. When I
telephone for service, a real person answers the telephone and directs
my call. A service tech in the U.S. handles my inquiry. If my
equipment needs service, I ship it a relatively short distance, pay a
fair price and it is turned around in short order. Parts are on hand
for most Ten-Tec gear produced.

My "made in USA" Orion is filled with components manufactured in the far
east. Everybody's else's rig is filled with 'em.

I have, within the past couple of years, bought Japanese gear. I used
to use a Paragon as an IF for two Ten-Tec transverters and one Microwave
Modules transverter for VHF/UHF bands. The switching became a pain.
I decided on an FT-847 because it had separate antenna ports for HF, 6m,
2m and 70cm. I bought an Icom IC-706 MkIIG for a mobile rig because
there simply wasn't room for even a Ten-Tec Scout to be mounted in my
Neon--and I still wouldn't have addressed the need for a 2m and 70cm rig.

For me to buy this latest assemble-it-yourself transceiver, it'd have to
be considerably better than what I have now. From what I've read, it
has numerous features which I see as having dubious value.

Dave K8MN

Dave Heil wrote:
K4YZ wrote:
Mike Coslo wrote:
Hoping that they can sell enough to expand the concept, because it is a
good one....

I don't think that's going to happen, Mike.

First off, I don't think very many folks will drop $3K to $6K on a
radio that comes incomplete, computer or not.

Incomplete?

Yes, $3000 to $6000 is a lot of dough. Definitely way above *my* ham
radio
budget. But that's just me, and what I'm willing to spend. Others will
put
down a lot more for just a tower..

The DZ website makes the point of comparing popular rigs of ~40 years
ago
and their prices when adjusted for inflation. New ham gear in the bad
old
days was amazingly expensive when you consider the inflation factor.

In fact, consider what PCs cost just ten years ago! A 486DX50 with 32
meg of RAM and a half-gig hard drive could cost you big bucks then -
and it's a doorstop today.

I can spend a heck of a
lot of LESS money and get more radio AND computer for my bucks!

Maybe more computer, but not more radio, if the performance is up to
the claims.

But the big issue is how many hams will spend the money, and how many
DZ needs to sell to be viable. Maybe he only needs/plans to sell 100
or so.

Consider the Elecraft K2. When it first came out, I heard some
scoffing in the peanut gallery that said very few hams would pay
almost $600 for a rig that was, in basic form, CW only, hambands only
and QRP. They said that having SSB, 160, NB, ATU and 100W all as
extra-cost options would doom the rig and the company.

But more than 5000 have been sold since 1999 with minimal advertising.

Secondly, it's a "kit" only in the sense that it does come
"disassembled". The potential buyer is actually paying the
"manufacturer" for the privilege of him (the "manufacturer) not having
to pay an assembly line.

I don't think so. It's not clear from the website how much assembly the
buyer actually does. Obviously it's less than the bag-o-parts scenario
of some kits but less than fully assembled.

Lastly, he brags about the "kit" being "built in America" because
the owner "builds it right here in America". I wish I had the spare
change to drop to buy one for no other reason than to see where all of
the pre-assembled boards are actually assembled. No doubt in some
PacRim nation where the guy who REALLY built it wouldn't be able to
afford it in a lifetime.

I think the boards may be assembled here in the USA. There are all
sorts
of prototype and assembly outfits here in the USA to do small runs. Of
course
they cost a lot more per unit than "offshore", but if you're not making
a
million units or even 10,000 units, the total package price can be very
competitive.

There aren't nearly as many components built in the U.S. as in the past,
Steve. Even back in the late seventies and early eighties, most solid
state devices were produced in Mexico, Maylasia, Hong Kong, Taiwan, etc.

Yep. And while first runs of new devices may be US made, the production
quickly moves away. Not just silicon devices, either, but many other
components.

Among the reasons that I continue to use Ten-Tec gear is that families
in the U.S. receive pay checks when I do so. Ten-Tec manufactures their
enclosures, plastic components, variable caps and the like. When I
telephone for service, a real person answers the telephone and directs
my call. A service tech in the U.S. handles my inquiry. If my
equipment needs service, I ship it a relatively short distance, pay a
fair price and it is turned around in short order. Parts are on hand
for most Ten-Tec gear produced.

Yep. Service alone is a reason to buy Ten Tec.

My "made in USA" Orion is filled with components manufactured in the far
east. Everybody's else's rig is filled with 'em.

Not everybody's! ;-)

Not mine!

For me to buy this latest assemble-it-yourself transceiver, it'd have to
be considerably better than what I have now. From what I've read, it
has numerous features which I see as having dubious value.

The real telling point will be the performance up against an Orion or
other top-of-the-line state-of-the-art rig.

73 de Jim, N2EY

wrote:
Dave Heil wrote:
K4YZ wrote:
Mike Coslo wrote:

In fact, consider what PCs cost just ten years ago! A 486DX50 with 32
meg of RAM and a half-gig hard drive could cost you big bucks then -
and it's a doorstop today.

Depends on what it's used for. If a 10-year-old dedicated-purpose
computer is still doing it's specific job there's no particular reason
to replace it. One of my customers has had an original IBM 8088 (?) PC
in his panel shop which has been churning out alphanumeric wire number
tapes daily for well over 20 years.

But the big issue is how many hams will spend the money, and how
many
DZ needs to sell to be viable. Maybe he only needs/plans to sell 100
or so.

To accomplish what?? Makes no business sense at all.

I don't think so. It's not clear from the website how much assembly the
buyer actually does. Obviously it's less than the bag-o-parts scenario
of some kits but less than fully assembled.

Smells to me like a scam to duck around having to get the things "type
accepted".

The real telling point will be the performance up against an Orion or
other top-of-the-line state-of-the-art rig.

.. . . the story of the demise of the Kachina. Whatta dismal POS that
thing is! Was.


73 de Jim, N2EY

w3rv

wrote:
Dave Heil wrote:
K4YZ wrote:
Mike Coslo wrote:
Hoping that they can sell enough to expand the concept, because it is a
good one....

I don't think that's going to happen, Mike.

First off, I don't think very many folks will drop $3K to $6K on a
radio that comes incomplete, computer or not.

Incomplete?

Incomplete as it requires more than providing a power source,
ground and an antenna to get operating.

Yes, $3000 to $6000 is a lot of dough. Definitely way above *my* ham
radio
budget. But that's just me, and what I'm willing to spend. Others will
put
down a lot more for just a tower..

But a tower is a rigid structural item. That's one of the LAST
things I'd skimp any money on!

The DZ website makes the point of comparing popular rigs of ~40 years
ago
and their prices when adjusted for inflation. New ham gear in the bad
old
days was amazingly expensive when you consider the inflation factor.

In fact, consider what PCs cost just ten years ago! A 486DX50 with 32
meg of RAM and a half-gig hard drive could cost you big bucks then -
and it's a doorstop today.

Whelllp...it's 2005 and $3000 is still a chunk of change!

I can spend a heck of a
lot of LESS money and get more radio AND computer for my bucks!

Maybe more computer, but not more radio, if the performance is up to
the claims.

Is that "performance" worth it, Jim, for a non-professional
station? Sure, if I was trying to transmit high fidelity audio I might
want to drop those extra bucks. But in an era when I can communicate
via a satellie with an HT and a hand help yagi, I'd be hard pressed to
justify the cost.

But the big issue is how many hams will spend the money, and how many
DZ needs to sell to be viable. Maybe he only needs/plans to sell 100
or so.

How many Amateurs might have the need for the specifications?

Consider the Elecraft K2. When it first came out, I heard some
scoffing in the peanut gallery that said very few hams would pay
almost $600 for a rig that was, in basic form, CW only, hambands only
and QRP. They said that having SSB, 160, NB, ATU and 100W all as
extra-cost options would doom the rig and the company.

But more than 5000 have been sold since 1999 with minimal advertising.

True.

But a topped-out K2 still comes in UNDER $2000 if you add in ALL
of the options...And not mcuh more if you add in the new VHF
transverters. And in it's present configuration, you can get started
for well under $750. That's a lot easier pill to swallow.

Secondly, it's a "kit" only in the sense that it does come
"disassembled". The potential buyer is actually paying the
"manufacturer" for the privilege of him (the "manufacturer) not having
to pay an assembly line.

I don't think so. It's not clear from the website how much assembly the
buyer actually does. Obviously it's less than the bag-o-parts scenario
of some kits but less than fully assembled.

OK...maybe you ahve to solder the wires going to the front panel
pots and antenna connectors and a couple of point-to-point chassis
connectors.

To make his "three evening" claim it can't be much more elaborate
than that.

Lastly, he brags about the "kit" being "built in America" because
the owner "builds it right here in America". I wish I had the spare
change to drop to buy one for no other reason than to see where all of
the pre-assembled boards are actually assembled. No doubt in some
PacRim nation where the guy who REALLY built it wouldn't be able to
afford it in a lifetime.

I think the boards may be assembled here in the USA. There are all
sorts
of prototype and assembly outfits here in the USA to do small runs. Of
course
they cost a lot more per unit than "offshore", but if you're not making
a
million units or even 10,000 units, the total package price can be very
competitive.

I know. I did that for a while, as Lennie will quickly remind
you!

But even on "limited production runs" of 500 or less units, the
cost was prohibitive

There aren't nearly as many components built in the U.S. as in the past,
Steve. Even back in the late seventies and early eighties, most solid
state devices were produced in Mexico, Maylasia, Hong Kong, Taiwan, etc.

Yep. And while first runs of new devices may be US made, the production
quickly moves away. Not just silicon devices, either, but many other
components.

By "components", I didn't mean the actual resistors, SMD's,
etc...My bust.

Among the reasons that I continue to use Ten-Tec gear is that families
in the U.S. receive pay checks when I do so. Ten-Tec manufactures their
enclosures, plastic components, variable caps and the like. When I
telephone for service, a real person answers the telephone and directs
my call. A service tech in the U.S. handles my inquiry. If my
equipment needs service, I ship it a relatively short distance, pay a
fair price and it is turned around in short order. Parts are on hand
for most Ten-Tec gear produced.

Yep. Service alone is a reason to buy Ten Tec.

Yep!

My "made in USA" Orion is filled with components manufactured in the far
east. Everybody's else's rig is filled with 'em.

Not everybody's! ;-)

Not mine!

Thank-you old TV's!

For me to buy this latest assemble-it-yourself transceiver, it'd have to
be considerably better than what I have now. From what I've read, it
has numerous features which I see as having dubious value.

The real telling point will be the performance up against an Orion or
other top-of-the-line state-of-the-art rig.

Absolutely.

But who's gonna pony-up the change for one to find out...?!?!

73

Steve, K4YZ

K4YZ wrote:
wrote:
Dave Heil wrote:
K4YZ wrote:
Mike Coslo wrote:
Hoping that they can sell enough to expand the concept, because it is a
good one....
I don't think that's going to happen, Mike.

First off, I don't think very many folks will drop $3K to $6K on a
radio that comes incomplete, computer or not.

Incomplete?

Incomplete as it requires more than providing a power
source, ground and an antenna to get operating.

So what?

Yes, $3000 to $6000 is a lot of dough. Definitely way above *my* ham
radio
budget. But that's just me, and what I'm willing to spend. Others will
put
down a lot more for just a tower..

But a tower is a rigid structural item. That's one of the LAST
things I'd skimp any money on!

The point is that there are plenty of hams for whom the cost is not
prohibitive.

The DZ website makes the point of comparing popular rigs of
~40 years ago
and their prices when adjusted for inflation. New ham gear
in the bad old
days was amazingly expensive when you consider the inflation factor.

In fact, consider what PCs cost just ten years ago! A 486DX50 with 32
meg of RAM and a half-gig hard drive could cost you big bucks then -
and it's a doorstop today.

Whelllp...it's 2005 and $3000 is still a chunk of change!

Sure - but not what it was back when.

I can spend a heck of a
lot of LESS money and get more radio AND computer for my bucks!

Maybe more computer, but not more radio, if the performance is up to
the claims.

Is that "performance" worth it, Jim, for a non-professional
station?

"non-professional"? What does that mean?

Let's talk about how it relates to *amateur* radio.

Sure, if I was trying to transmit high fidelity audio I might
want to drop those extra bucks.

For most applications the difference isn't noticeable.

But the competitive DXer/contester types *do* notice the difference.
Much of that difference is in the receiver, not
the transmitter. For example, when the band is full of big
signals during a contest, lesser rigs experience an apparent
rise in noise level. What's really going on is all sorts of
mixing between signals in the rx front end, which limits the
ability to hear the weak ones. A better rx can handle the mass
of big signals without problems.

The "professionals" often avoided this problem by having separate
transmitting and receiving sites. Most hams can't do that.

But in an era when I can communicate
via a satellie with an HT and a hand help yagi, I'd be hard
pressed to justify the cost.

If you're going to make that argument, why not just use the internet?

But the big issue is how many hams will spend the money, and how many
DZ needs to sell to be viable. Maybe he only needs/plans to
sell 100 or so.

How many Amateurs might have the need for the specifications?

I dunno. But look how many FT-1000s have been sold. Or any other
top-end rig.

Remember when Icom introduced the IC-781? How many did they sell?

Consider the Elecraft K2. When it first came out, I heard some
scoffing in the peanut gallery that said very few hams would pay
almost $600 for a rig that was, in basic form, CW only,
hambands only
and QRP. They said that having SSB, 160, NB, ATU and 100W all as extra-cost options would doom the rig and the company.

But more than 5000 have been sold since 1999 with minimal
advertising.

True.

But a topped-out K2 still comes in UNDER $2000 if you add in ALL of the options...

And you can get a lot of other rigs for less than $2000, ready built.
Yet the K2 succeeds - why?

And not mcuh more if you add in the new VHF
transverters. And in it's present configuration, you can get
started
for well under $750. That's a lot easier pill to swallow.

There are plenty of hams out there for whom $750 is what they'll spend
on IF filters....

Secondly, it's a "kit" only in the sense that it does come
"disassembled". The potential buyer is actually paying the
"manufacturer" for the privilege of him (the "manufacturer) not having
to pay an assembly line.

I don't think so. It's not clear from the website how much assembly the
buyer actually does. Obviously it's less than the bag-o-parts scenario
of some kits but less than fully assembled.

OK...maybe you ahve to solder the wires going to the front panel
pots and antenna connectors and a couple of point-to-point chassis
connectors.

I wonder if the instruction manual will show that?

To make his "three evening" claim it can't be much more elaborate
than that.

Sure it can. Heck, back in high school, I built a complete 150 watt
transmitter in one evening. Of course I had the metalwork done and all
the parts on hand, and it was a long night.

Lastly, he brags about the "kit" being "built in America" because
the owner "builds it right here in America". I wish I had the spare
change to drop to buy one for no other reason than to see where all of
the pre-assembled boards are actually assembled. No doubt in some
PacRim nation where the guy who REALLY built it wouldn't be able to
afford it in a lifetime.

I think the boards may be assembled here in the USA. There are all
sorts
of prototype and assembly outfits here in the USA to do small runs. Of
course
they cost a lot more per unit than "offshore", but if you're not making
a
million units or even 10,000 units, the total package price can be very
competitive.

I know. I did that for a while, as Lennie will quickly remind
you!

Lennie who?

But even on "limited production runs" of 500 or less units, the
cost was prohibitive

For what?


There aren't nearly as many components built in the U.S. as in the past,
Steve. Even back in the late seventies and early eighties, most solid
state devices were produced in Mexico, Maylasia, Hong Kong, Taiwan, etc.

Yep. And while first runs of new devices may be US made, the production
quickly moves away. Not just silicon devices, either, but many other
components.

By "components", I didn't mean the actual resistors, SMD's,
etc...My bust.

Among the reasons that I continue to use Ten-Tec gear is that families
in the U.S. receive pay checks when I do so. Ten-Tec manufactures their
enclosures, plastic components, variable caps and the like. When I
telephone for service, a real person answers the telephone and directs
my call. A service tech in the U.S. handles my inquiry. If my
equipment needs service, I ship it a relatively short distance, pay a
fair price and it is turned around in short order. Parts are on hand
for most Ten-Tec gear produced.

Yep. Service alone is a reason to buy Ten Tec.

Yep!

My "made in USA" Orion is filled with components manufactured in the far
east. Everybody's else's rig is filled with 'em.

Not everybody's! ;-)

Not mine!

Thank-you old TV's!

Old TVs, od BC radios, old test gear, military surplus (swords into
plowshares), old ham gear, etc., etc.

For me to buy this latest assemble-it-yourself transceiver, it'd have to
be considerably better than what I have now. From what I've read, it
has numerous features which I see as having dubious value.

The real telling point will be the performance up against an Orion or
other top-of-the-line state-of-the-art rig.

Absolutely.

But who's gonna pony-up the change for one to find out...?!?!

Not me! But some will, and then we'll know.

73 de Jim, N2EY

K4YZ wrote:
Mike Coslo wrote:

Hoping that they can sell enough to expand the concept, because it is a
good one....

I don't think that's going to happen, Mike.

First off, I don't think very many folks will drop $3K to $6K on a
radio that comes incomplete, computer or not. I can spend a heck of a
lot of LESS money and get more radio AND computer for my bucks!

Secondly, it's a "kit" only in the sense that it does come
"disassembled". The potential buyer is actually paying the
"manufacturer" for the privilege of him (the "manufacturer) not having
to pay an assembly line.

Lastly, he brags about the "kit" being "built in America" because
the owner "builds it right here in America". I wish I had the spare
change to drop to buy one for no other reason than to see where all of
the pre-assembled boards are actually assembled.

No doubt in some
PacRim nation where the guy who REALLY built it wouldn't be able to
afford it in a lifetime.

You just might be surprised to find out that the boards were stuffed in
the U.S. Not all board design and stuffing is done overseas by a long
shot. The Asians can't be touched when it comes to designing and
cranking out the boards which go into mid to high volume equipment.

Conversly the U.S. is the global top gun when it comes to very
competitvely producing boards which go into low volume equipment. Which
includes the likes of Ten-tec gear kits and otherwise. So I suspect
that the boards in all the few "Made in America" pieces of solid state
ham gear available today are designed, burned and stuffed right here.

The big tricks the U.S. has in the short-run board biz invlove our
extremely automated, flexible, quick turnaround design/burn/stuff
capabilities which are unique at the international level and it's a
*big* bucks biz.

If a Ten-tec decided the next-off-the-line series of OhRyans needs a
newly-designed boards any number of circuit board job shops in this
country can put a few protypes in Ten-tec's hands inside 72 hours for
test and evaluation and be set to make whatever revisions Ten-tech
wants and be set to roll into production within hours after it gets the
feedback from Ten-tec.

As if any ricbox radio builder can come even close.


73

Steve, K4YZ

w3rv

wrote:

If a Ten-tec decided the next-off-the-line series of OhRyans needs a
newly-designed boards any number of circuit board job shops in this
country can put a few protypes in Ten-tec's hands inside 72 hours for
test and evaluation and be set to make whatever revisions Ten-tech
wants and be set to roll into production within hours after it gets the
feedback from Ten-tec.

As if any ricbox radio builder can come even close.

We may have a chance to find out soon. Ten-Tec announced the Orion II
today. It is set for October shipping.

Dave K8MN

Dave Heil wrote:
wrote:

If a Ten-tec decided the next-off-the-line series of OhRyans needs a
newly-designed boards any number of circuit board job shops in this
country can put a few protypes in Ten-tec's hands inside 72 hours for
test and evaluation and be set to make whatever revisions Ten-tech
wants and be set to roll into production within hours after it gets the
feedback from Ten-tec.

As if any ricbox radio builder can come even close.

We may have a chance to find out soon. Ten-Tec announced the Orion II
today. It is set for October shipping.

Woo-woo, here we go again - ought to be an another major
attention-grabber from Seiverville. I'll be waiting and watching
because whatever it turns out to be it'll sure as God made little
apples render used versions of it's predecessor much more available in
the used market. Which is my money usually goes.

Dave K8MN

w3rv