Alun L. Palmer wrote:
"John Smith" wrote in
break
There is one loose end, though. I read the NPRM to say that Tech+ would
become closed, so that all new Techs would have to get element 3 to get on
HF, but others have read it that all Techs would get Tech+ privileges. Does
anyone know which is right?

I read it as techs all tech end up with what amounts to what was once
called tech plus,

but anyone that claims to know what the result is likely to prove
themselves a lair

"an old friend" wrote


but anyone that claims to know what the result is likely to prove
themselves a lair


"Lair". Maybe you meant "a liar"?

In any case, more likely just "mistaken in their understanding of the proposed
rule".

73, de Hans, K0HB
~~~
We pass the word around; we ponder how the case is put by different
people, we read the poetry; we meditate over the literature; we play
the music; we change our minds; we reach an understanding. Society
evolves this way, not by shouting each other down, but by the unique
capacity of unique, individual human beings to comprehend each other.
--Lewis Thomas, The Medusa and the Snail (1979)
~~~

KXHB:

Interesting, not even a great speelcheeker would have caught lair and liar
error...

John

"KXHB" wrote in message
.net...

"an old friend" wrote


but anyone that claims to know what the result is likely to prove
themselves a lair


"Lair". Maybe you meant "a liar"?

In any case, more likely just "mistaken in their understanding of the
proposed rule".

73, de Hans, K0HB
~~~
We pass the word around; we ponder how the case is put by different
people, we read the poetry; we meditate over the literature; we play
the music; we change our minds; we reach an understanding. Society
evolves this way, not by shouting each other down, but by the unique
capacity of unique, individual human beings to comprehend each other.
--Lewis Thomas, The Medusa and the Snail (1979)
~~~

"an old friend" wrote in message
oups.com...

Alun L. Palmer wrote:
"John Smith" wrote in
break
There is one loose end, though. I read the NPRM to say that Tech+ would
become closed, so that all new Techs would have to get element 3 to get
on
HF, but others have read it that all Techs would get Tech+ privileges.
Does
anyone know which is right?

I read it as techs all tech end up with what amounts to what was once
called tech plus,

but anyone that claims to know what the result is likely to prove
themselves a lair


If you are talking about the US proposal, read the NPRM through a couple of
times. They discuss this at great length. Techs will not get Tech+
privileges. Anyone who wants to increase their privileges will have to take
a test. They specifically state that no one will get any changes in
privileges. That is also consistent with the way the paragraphs will be
reworded as shown in the appendix.

Finally, one of the posters on eHam called the FCC on this and asked for and
got clarification. He was told that Techs will not get Tech+ privileges.
It is indeed the FCC's position that anyone desiring more than their current
privileges must take the appropriate written test.

Dee D. Flint, N8UZE

Dee Flint wrote:
"an old friend" wrote in message
oups.com...

Alun L. Palmer wrote:
"John Smith" wrote in
break
There is one loose end, though. I read the NPRM to say that Tech+ would
become closed, so that all new Techs would have to get element 3 to get
on
HF, but others have read it that all Techs would get Tech+ privileges.
Does
anyone know which is right?

I read it as techs all tech end up with what amounts to what was once
called tech plus,

but anyone that claims to know what the result is likely to prove
themselves a lair


If you are talking about the US proposal, read the NPRM through a couple of
times. They discuss this at great length. Techs will not get Tech+
privileges. Anyone who wants to increase their privileges will have to take
a test. They specifically state that no one will get any changes in
privileges. That is also consistent with the way the paragraphs will be
reworded as shown in the appendix.

I have read it and read it and I come to the same conclusion

Finally, one of the posters on eHam called the FCC on this and asked for and
got clarification. He was told that Techs will not get Tech+ privileges.
It is indeed the FCC's position that anyone desiring more than their current
privileges must take the appropriate written test.

so what?

It is unlikely that you are going to get anyone on the phone able to
speak for the what the R&O will say before even the end of the coment
period

indeed that issue is the only mystery left,

after all we are assued that No one loses previdges as well, and if all
the langauge that is said to be delected is delected then the old tech
plus folks lose HF access

The lang is badly worded, and frankly I suspect ones reading depends on
wether you look at rules in the light all not forbidden is allowed or
all not expressly allowed is forbidden

I hope (nearly said I trsut but though better of it) the FCC will make
that one point clear in the R&O

Dee D. Flint, N8UZE

"an old friend" wrote in message
oups.com...

Dee Flint wrote:
"an old friend" wrote in message
oups.com...

Alun L. Palmer wrote:
"John Smith" wrote in
break
There is one loose end, though. I read the NPRM to say that Tech+
would
become closed, so that all new Techs would have to get element 3 to
get
on
HF, but others have read it that all Techs would get Tech+ privileges.
Does
anyone know which is right?

I read it as techs all tech end up with what amounts to what was once
called tech plus,

but anyone that claims to know what the result is likely to prove
themselves a lair


If you are talking about the US proposal, read the NPRM through a couple
of
times. They discuss this at great length. Techs will not get Tech+
privileges. Anyone who wants to increase their privileges will have to
take
a test. They specifically state that no one will get any changes in
privileges. That is also consistent with the way the paragraphs will be
reworded as shown in the appendix.

I have read it and read it and I come to the same conclusion

Finally, one of the posters on eHam called the FCC on this and asked for
and
got clarification. He was told that Techs will not get Tech+ privileges.
It is indeed the FCC's position that anyone desiring more than their
current
privileges must take the appropriate written test.

so what?

It is unlikely that you are going to get anyone on the phone able to
speak for the what the R&O will say before even the end of the coment
period

indeed that issue is the only mystery left,

after all we are assued that No one loses previdges as well, and if all
the langauge that is said to be delected is delected then the old tech
plus folks lose HF access


Nope. The paragraph that gives Tech+ their HF access is unchanged. Look at
the appendix. It shows what paragraphs they are planning to change and what
the projected wording is. The Tech+ paragraph is untouched and left to
stand as is.

The lang is badly worded, and frankly I suspect ones reading depends on
wether you look at rules in the light all not forbidden is allowed or
all not expressly allowed is forbidden


Nope. It is very clear on which paragraphs they propose to change and what
the proposed wording is. The paragraph that grants Tech+ the Novice HF
privileges has no changes proposed.

I hope (nearly said I trsut but though better of it) the FCC will make
that one point clear in the R&O


The problem with the NPRM is simply its extensive discussion, which does get
rather wordy but is explicit if one reads it. The revised paragraphs for
Part 97 listed at the end of the NPRM are quite clear.

I originally was confused too but comparing the new text to the old text
clarified the situation. That comparison put the lengthy discussion into
perspective and clarified it a great deal.

Dee D. Flint, N8UZE

Dee:

If the only difference between NC tech, and tech+ is the code, and there
is is no longer a code test, would logic dictate that the plus'es can
still hold a greater privilege than a tech?

Now, why would logic dictate their being two classes of tech, when there
does not exist any difference between the classes? Often you see this kind
of insanity when the gov't becomes involved, you could argue that point, and there
are no more tech plus licenses being issued, you could also argue that
point.

However, I think just as valid an argument would be that tech plus was ok
for some HF, now there is no code, so tech is now ok for the same HF allowances.

However, I don't think you are going to find many who would care to argue
this point, there just is not enough interest in amateur radio at this point, and the
argument is something of a "time sensitive" issue, it would have to be argued
quickly--or not at all. As precedence is won by the dragging of the
feet...

John


On Mon, 01 Aug 2005 19:13:52 -0400, Dee Flint wrote:


"an old friend" wrote in message
oups.com...

Dee Flint wrote:
"an old friend" wrote in message
oups.com...

Alun L. Palmer wrote:
"John Smith" wrote in
break
There is one loose end, though. I read the NPRM to say that Tech+
would
become closed, so that all new Techs would have to get element 3 to
get
on
HF, but others have read it that all Techs would get Tech+ privileges.
Does
anyone know which is right?

I read it as techs all tech end up with what amounts to what was once
called tech plus,

but anyone that claims to know what the result is likely to prove
themselves a lair


If you are talking about the US proposal, read the NPRM through a couple
of
times. They discuss this at great length. Techs will not get Tech+
privileges. Anyone who wants to increase their privileges will have to
take
a test. They specifically state that no one will get any changes in
privileges. That is also consistent with the way the paragraphs will be
reworded as shown in the appendix.

I have read it and read it and I come to the same conclusion

Finally, one of the posters on eHam called the FCC on this and asked for
and
got clarification. He was told that Techs will not get Tech+ privileges.
It is indeed the FCC's position that anyone desiring more than their
current
privileges must take the appropriate written test.

so what?

It is unlikely that you are going to get anyone on the phone able to
speak for the what the R&O will say before even the end of the coment
period

indeed that issue is the only mystery left,

after all we are assued that No one loses previdges as well, and if all
the langauge that is said to be delected is delected then the old tech
plus folks lose HF access


Nope. The paragraph that gives Tech+ their HF access is unchanged. Look at
the appendix. It shows what paragraphs they are planning to change and what
the projected wording is. The Tech+ paragraph is untouched and left to
stand as is.

The lang is badly worded, and frankly I suspect ones reading depends on
wether you look at rules in the light all not forbidden is allowed or
all not expressly allowed is forbidden


Nope. It is very clear on which paragraphs they propose to change and what
the proposed wording is. The paragraph that grants Tech+ the Novice HF
privileges has no changes proposed.

I hope (nearly said I trsut but though better of it) the FCC will make
that one point clear in the R&O


The problem with the NPRM is simply its extensive discussion, which does get
rather wordy but is explicit if one reads it. The revised paragraphs for
Part 97 listed at the end of the NPRM are quite clear.

I originally was confused too but comparing the new text to the old text
clarified the situation. That comparison put the lengthy discussion into
perspective and clarified it a great deal.

Dee D. Flint, N8UZE

John Smith wrote:

If the only difference between NC tech, and tech+ is the
code, and there
is is no longer a code test, would logic dictate that the
plus'es can
still hold a greater privilege than a tech?

The FCC's logic says "YES!"

Now, why would logic dictate their being two classes of
tech, when there
does not exist any difference between the classes?

But there *does* exist a difference!

Techs who have passed a code test have some HF privileges
now - today - under current rules.

Techs who have not passed a code test have no HF privileges
now - today - under current rules.

The FCC makes it clear that they do not want any current
licensee to gain or lose privileges simply because of the
proposed changes.

Therefore, if the proposal is enacted, the two types of
Techs (code tested and non code tested) will continue to
exist, with the difference in privileges, even if there's
no longer a code test, and even after the last Tech Plus
expires, upgrades, or is renewed as Tech.

Often you see this kind of insanity when the gov't
becomes involved, you could argue that point, and there
are no more tech plus licenses being issued, you could
also argue that point.

It's not "insanity" at all. It's the only way to satisfy
all the requirements listed above.

However, I think just as valid an argument would be that tech
plus was ok
for some HF, now there is no code, so tech is now ok for the
same HF allowances.

That would violate the principle of no additional privs without
the appropriate test, whoch the FCC repeatedly supports in the
NPRM document.

However, I don't think you are going to find many who would
care to argue
this point, there just is not enough interest in amateur radio at this point, and the
argument is something of a "time sensitive" issue, it would
have to be argued
quickly--or not at all. As precedence is won by the dragging of the feet...

You can argue it all you want. Comments don't close for weeks yet.

If anyone actually bothers to read the NPRM, they'll see that
FCC repeatedly mentions how easy it is for existing licensees
to get more privileges by passing only written tests. FCC also
mentions repeatedly how, if the NPRM is enacted, all nonExtras
will be able to get more privileges by taking a few written
tests. They even mention how many correct answers are needed.

FCC also repeatedly mentions their support for spectrum as an
incentive to upgrading, and how free upgrades act as a
disincentive.

Do you not like the idea of a VHF/UHF-only entry-level license,
with HF held out as an incentive for more *written* testing?

--

Just think - under the new system, all new hams will have access to all
of amateur VHF/UHF, all modes, and full authorized power.

Those who go on to General will have most HF privileges too, with small
parts of 4 HF bands reserved for Extras.

Be careful what you ask for - you may just get it.

N2EY:

I have consistently given the answers for the general ticket, I will
continue to do so, I have a study guide for general (put together by
another individual) the answers are in it, all one needs to do is dig them
out--they should have to work a bit for extra, one only needs study these
for an evening, two if they are slow, three if they are a "ma'roon" and go
to the examiner and get their ticket... it is a moot point for me... I
think the FCC changes are perfect as is...

John

On Mon, 01 Aug 2005 17:36:42 -0700, N2EY wrote:

John Smith wrote:

If the only difference between NC tech, and tech+ is the code, and
there
is is no longer a code test, would logic dictate that the plus'es can
still hold a greater privilege than a tech?

The FCC's logic says "YES!"

Now, why would logic dictate their being two classes of tech, when
there
does not exist any difference between the classes?

But there *does* exist a difference!

Techs who have passed a code test have some HF privileges now - today -
under current rules.

Techs who have not passed a code test have no HF privileges now - today
- under current rules.

The FCC makes it clear that they do not want any current licensee to
gain or lose privileges simply because of the proposed changes.

Therefore, if the proposal is enacted, the two types of Techs (code
tested and non code tested) will continue to exist, with the difference
in privileges, even if there's no longer a code test, and even after the
last Tech Plus expires, upgrades, or is renewed as Tech.

Often you see this kind of insanity when the gov't becomes involved,
you could argue that point, and there are no more tech plus licenses
being issued, you could also argue that point.

It's not "insanity" at all. It's the only way to satisfy all the
requirements listed above.

However, I think just as valid an argument would be that tech plus was
ok
for some HF, now there is no code, so tech is now ok for the same HF
allowances.

That would violate the principle of no additional privs without the
appropriate test, whoch the FCC repeatedly supports in the NPRM
document.

However, I don't think you are going to find many who would care to
argue
this point, there just is not enough interest in amateur radio at
this point, and the argument is something of a "time sensitive" issue,
it would have to be argued
quickly--or not at all. As precedence is won by the dragging of
the feet...

You can argue it all you want. Comments don't close for weeks yet.

If anyone actually bothers to read the NPRM, they'll see that FCC
repeatedly mentions how easy it is for existing licensees to get more
privileges by passing only written tests. FCC also mentions repeatedly
how, if the NPRM is enacted, all nonExtras will be able to get more
privileges by taking a few written tests. They even mention how many
correct answers are needed.

FCC also repeatedly mentions their support for spectrum as an incentive
to upgrading, and how free upgrades act as a disincentive.

Do you not like the idea of a VHF/UHF-only entry-level license, with HF
held out as an incentive for more *written* testing?

--

Just think - under the new system, all new hams will have access to all
of amateur VHF/UHF, all modes, and full authorized power.

Those who go on to General will have most HF privileges too, with small
parts of 4 HF bands reserved for Extras.

Be careful what you ask for - you may just get it.

wrote


It's not "insanity" at all. It's the only way to satisfy
all the requirements listed above.


Of course it's insane.

"The Morse test is no longer required for operation below 30MHz. You can't
operate on HF because you've not passed a Morse test." By any measure, that
illogical.

Beep Beep
73, de Hans, K0HB