"John Smith" wrote


Then again, even if it a "mud puddle god" which is now on his/her/their
way to us right now, we may not be able to tell the difference between
them/it and a/the supreme being(s)--or perhaps, "God forbid!", they did
create us and now study us from a "duck blind"...


In the beginning, God created the earth, and he looked upon it in His cosmic
loneliness.

And God said, "Let Us make living creatures out of mud, so the mud can see what
We have done." And God created every living creature that now moveth, and one
was man. Mud as man alone could speak. God leaned close as mud as man sat up,
looked around, and spoke. Man blinked. "What is the purpose of all this?" he
asked politely.

"Everything must have a purpose?" asked God.

"Certainly," said man.

"Then I leave it to you to think of one for all this," said God.

And He went away.

--- Book of Bokonon, Chapter 1, Verses 2-4

K0HB:

Interesting...

All I know from observing the elements, electromagnetic spectrum and
the nature of things is that nature never creates symmetry (well,
crystals and spheres), never creates extremely complex designs, machines
or beings--indeed, the only argument and/or example anyone can possibly
pose is us--or rather, life on earth.

I would find one believing you can throw a handful of glass, plastic,
metal into a mud puddle--come back a million or so years later and start
pulling out microwaves, cell phones, amateur equip., etc... as all of
those are much simpler, we can make those ourselves!

I find it strange men have designed a whole complex theory explaining how
it can happen and stating they have "proofs", and yet we are the only
"proof", and really no proof at all to the original question--i.e., we are
simply proof we exist, not how we came to exist...

In my personal opinion, evolution is nothing more than a religion, and one
needing a leap of faith to participate in...

Nature is a prime example of decay, destruction of complex chemicals,
reduction to the base elements--devolution if you will... but then, some
would argue black is white...

If I was forced to guess, a beginning without the intervention of an
intelligence with a plan I would venture is impossible, someone obviously
"made" us...

John

On Sun, 28 Aug 2005 03:11:38 +0000, KØHB wrote:


"John Smith" wrote


Then again, even if it a "mud puddle god" which is now on his/her/their
way to us right now, we may not be able to tell the difference between
them/it and a/the supreme being(s)--or perhaps, "God forbid!", they did
create us and now study us from a "duck blind"...


In the beginning, God created the earth, and he looked upon it in His cosmic
loneliness.

And God said, "Let Us make living creatures out of mud, so the mud can see what
We have done." And God created every living creature that now moveth, and one
was man. Mud as man alone could speak. God leaned close as mud as man sat up,
looked around, and spoke. Man blinked. "What is the purpose of all this?" he
asked politely.

"Everything must have a purpose?" asked God.

"Certainly," said man.

"Then I leave it to you to think of one for all this," said God.

And He went away.

--- Book of Bokonon, Chapter 1, Verses 2-4

"John Smith" wrote


If I was forced to guess, a beginning without the intervention of an
intelligence with a plan I would venture is impossible, someone obviously
"made" us...


Are you from Kansas?

Evolution is (in my mind) too fuzzy a term, because it has become popularized to
imply a lock-step progression from "lower to higher". I subscribe to the basic
premise ("natural selection") but I believe it to be a stochastic process in
which some randomly scattered "lucky breaks" occured. For a good read, go to a
good university library and check out "The Blind Watchmaker" by Richard Dawkins
(Oxford) and "The Mind of God" by Paul Davies (University of Adelaide).

73, de Hans, K0HB

K0HB:

Yes, I have read a couple of books on the subject--most of the authors
strike me as being rather weak in math and especially in the area of
probability and statistics--quite possibly lotus-blossom-eaters.

First, just for starters, to get all the necessary elements formed into
the complex amino acids to create the RNA is preposterous--let alone the
actual creation of the RNA (and this would only be a virus--unable to
replicate on its own.) Next, to get a complex DNA structure would be
another extraordinary event, for the proper structure (organism) to be
present and form around the DNA AND be able to use the DNA would be
another extraordinary event, for this organism to be able to replicate
would be one more extraordinary event, for just one of these single celled
organisms to go "multi-cellular" would be one more extraordinary event,
then for each cell to develop specialized functions--another extraordinary
event, for them to form complete organs handling a specific
function--another extraordinary event.... AND THIS IS SUPPOSED TO GO
RIGHT ON UP TO WHERE THE ORGANISM IS CAPABLE OF SELF-REALIZATION, COMPLEX
THOUGHT AND CONSIDERS ITSELF TO HAVE A SPIRIT!

.... as you can quickly see, this chain of impossible, seemingly endlessly
numbered and impossible links of extraordinary events to have all
occurred, all at just the right time, all in just the proper order is just
too mathematically impossible to have any believe but those willing to
believe the most preposterous impossibility which could ever be devised...
in plain english--IT IS IMPOSSIBLE--END OF STORY!

Those books on the subject, start quickly to, toss around these CHAINS of
extraordinary events without the slightest considerations to the
mathematical possibilities, which end up being NON-EXISTENT!

I had the fortune to have a mathematics professor who I worked with at the
university, who obtained a grant and was into computing these
possibilities, he WAS an atheist... and that is a true story!

In fact, it was this professor who first told me to look either for angels
or aliens--before he finally settled on the angels (intelligence NOT from
a mud puddle as you could ever find upon an earth-like planet)...

I just flat do not know what to think, it is all too impossible...
perhaps the answers are out there...
X-Files-theme-plays-in-the-background

.... or, perhaps there is a very simple explanation we just have not
thought of--yet... any guess is as valid as another...

John

On Sun, 28 Aug 2005 04:03:50 +0000, KØHB wrote:


"John Smith" wrote


If I was forced to guess, a beginning without the intervention of an
intelligence with a plan I would venture is impossible, someone obviously
"made" us...


Are you from Kansas?

Evolution is (in my mind) too fuzzy a term, because it has become popularized to
imply a lock-step progression from "lower to higher". I subscribe to the basic
premise ("natural selection") but I believe it to be a stochastic process in
which some randomly scattered "lucky breaks" occured. For a good read, go to a
good university library and check out "The Blind Watchmaker" by Richard Dawkins
(Oxford) and "The Mind of God" by Paul Davies (University of Adelaide).

73, de Hans, K0HB

"John Smith" wrote

In fact, it was this professor who first told me to look either for angels
or aliens--before he finally settled on the angels (intelligence NOT from
a mud puddle as you could ever find upon an earth-like planet)...

The only thing that I can think of which is more impossible to believe than "mud
became man" is angels that just "were".

73, de Hans, K0HB

K0HB:

Yes, well, enigmas which run in circles, that is all there is...

John

On Sun, 28 Aug 2005 05:12:40 +0000, KØHB wrote:


"John Smith" wrote

In fact, it was this professor who first told me to look either for angels
or aliens--before he finally settled on the angels (intelligence NOT from
a mud puddle as you could ever find upon an earth-like planet)...

The only thing that I can think of which is more impossible to believe than "mud
became man" is angels that just "were".

73, de Hans, K0HB

KØHB wrote:
"John Smith" wrote


In fact, it was this professor who first told me to look either for angels
or aliens--before he finally settled on the angels (intelligence NOT from
a mud puddle as you could ever find upon an earth-like planet)...


The only thing that I can think of which is more impossible to believe than "mud
became man" is angels that just "were".

73, de Hans, K0HB





So where did all the matter in the universe orginially come from? If it
had no beginning, the it just "was". If it did indeed have a beginning,
the what was before that?

"Cmdr Buzz corey" wrote

So where did all the matter in the universe orginially come from? If it had no
beginning, the it just "was". If it did indeed have a beginning, the what was
before that?

Since there was no universe, there was no time. If there was no time, there
obviously was no "before".

.... yep, no matter how you slice or dice it, at some place in the past,
something "... was and always will be ...

The only argument left is if that "something" has an intelligence, I think
it is more than obvious it does, it made all this ...

The real argument is posed by people who do NOT want you to be endowed by
rights given to you by a creator. They wish to own you and be able to
either allow you some rights, or deny you those rights--usually based on
their appraisal of how much you are worth to them--it has always been the
story of all peoples and civilizations--"God" is very dangerous to those
who wish to control, use and own other individuals, groups and areas--as
they can only do so if those in question do not have rights which are
endowed them by a supreme creator...

.... be careful to argue against "God" too quickly, the forefathers placed
him in our constitution--they had a real purpose in doing so ...

John

On Sun, 28 Aug 2005 23:39:26
-0700, Cmdr Buzz corey wrote:

KØHB wrote:
"John Smith" wrote


In fact, it was this professor who first told me to look either for angels
or aliens--before he finally settled on the angels (intelligence NOT from
a mud puddle as you could ever find upon an earth-like planet)...


The only thing that I can think of which is more impossible to believe than "mud
became man" is angels that just "were".

73, de Hans, K0HB





So where did all the matter in the universe orginially come from? If it
had no beginning, the it just "was". If it did indeed have a beginning,
the what was before that?

Cmdr Buzz corey wrote:

KØHB wrote:

"John Smith" wrote


In fact, it was this professor who first told me to look either for
angels
or aliens--before he finally settled on the angels (intelligence NOT
from
a mud puddle as you could ever find upon an earth-like planet)...



The only thing that I can think of which is more impossible to believe
than "mud became man" is angels that just "were".

73, de Hans, K0HB





So where did all the matter in the universe orginially come from? If it
had no beginning, the it just "was". If it did indeed have a beginning,
the what was before that?

Personally, I suspect that answer may be hard to come by. My own
beliefs are that we are going to have to meld Big Bang and Steady State
together.

Big Bang has still not found Proton decay, which to me is a fatal flaw.
Steady State as it was thought of in the past, just doesn't hold up to
what we know today.

Certainly the idea of pre-Big Bang "foam" is interesting, but of
course, what was there before the "foam"? Was there a previous universe?
Given that the conditions and constants of the Universe were set by the
Big Bang, there isn't much doubt that any previous universe would have
been much different.

Where might the energy from these
universe/singularity/universe/singularity/universes have come from.

Perhaps the quantum world may give us some answers. Perhaps zero point
energy may have played a part.

- mike KB3EIA -