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K=D8HB wrote:
A lot of them were over-run by married Europeans with syphilis. The Great Nations of Europe Had gathered on the shore They'd conquered what was behind them And now they wanted more So they looked to the mighty ocean And took to the western sea The great nations of Europe in the sixteenth century Hide your wives and daughters Hide the groceries too Great nations of Europe coming through The Grand Canary Islands First land to which they came They slaughtered all the canaries there Which gave the land its name There were natives there called Guanches Guanches by the score Bullets, disease, the Portugese, and they weren't there anymore Now they're gone, they're gone, they're really gone You've never seen anyone so gone They're a picture in a museum Some lines written in a book But you won't find a live one no matter where you look Hide your wives and daughters Hide the groceries too Great nations of Europe coming through Columbus sailed for India Found Salvador instead He shook hands with some Indians and soon they all were dead They got TB and typhoid and athlete's foot Diptheria and the flu 'Scuse me - Great nations coming through! Balboa found the Pacific And on the trail one day He met some friendly Indians Whom he was told were gay So he had them torn apart by dogs on religious grounds they say The great nations of Europe were quite holy in their way Now they're gone, they're gone, they're really gone You've never seen anyone so gone Some bones hidden in a canyon Some paintings in a cave There's no use trying to save them There's nothing left to save Hide your wives and daughters Hide your sons as well With the great nations of Europe you never can tell From where you and I are standing At the dawn of a century Europes have sprung up everyone as even I can see But there on the horizon as a possiblity Some bug from out of Africa might come for you and me Destroying everything in its path From sea to shining sea Like the great nations of Europe In the sixteenth century "Great Nations of Europe" by Randy Newman 73 de Jim, N2EY |
#452
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#453
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Michael Coslo wrote:
wrote: Mike Coslo wrote: wrote: Mike Coslo wrote: K4YZ wrote: wrote: K4YZ wrote: nobodys_old_friend wrote: Mike Coslo wrote: wrote: Bingo! It is no exaggeration to note that the biggest atheists here in the US are almost all filled to the gills with "Christian Values". ?? I'm not sure what you mean, Mike. Even though a person may proclaim to be an atheist, that person was raised in a society that is pretty much Christian, and overwhelmingly Judeo-Christian. The atheist person is going to have most of those same values as the rest of the society. Maybe. After all, "Christian" societies gave us folks like Joe Stalin and that German guy with the Charlie Chaplin mustache. They were definitely aberrations. Were they? They not only existed, but were able to get large numbers of nominal "Christians" to follow and obey them. The crusades. The inquisitions. Burning witches. "Christians" persecuting other "Christians", non-Christians, the Klan, Jonestown, Waco, etc. He really would never stop throwing up. We all have to have some sort of values, save for the rare and sick few. But all value systems are not created equal. Of course not. Now compare the other value systems to ours, and you see why even atheists have Christian values even if they were raised in a Christian country Way too simplified. Just simple enough! Too simple. The values you esteem are not limited to Christians. I'm not trying to say that we all act like one another. There is variability among any social group. But our values are based on our society and it's influences. Not just our society. And look at the wide variability of those "values". The Rev. Dr. Martin Luther King was a Christian, trying to promote Christian values. He was killed by a Christian with different Christian values. And in American society as a whole, a large part of it is Christian influence. I don't hold with the concept of Sabbath days, but I sure like my Saturday and Sunday off. I had a few jobs in the deep dark past that required me to work weekends, and take my days off in the middle of the week. Didn't seem right! 8^) More of a circadian rhythm thing. "Christians" can't even agree on what "Christian values" are. Never have, never will. As long as man creates God in his own image...... For example, look at how long some "Catholics" and "Protestants" have been going at each other, in places like Northern Ireland. Is that a "Christian value"? Yes, IMO. Would He agree? How about equal rights for people of different genders, races, creeds, ethnicities? Heck, go back just 150 years and there were "Christians" arguing that it was His will that some people *own* other people.... Whatever you want to do, there can be a religious excuse for it. And there is nothing wrong with most of those values. The ten commandments? A lot of that is good stuff. Sure - but a lot of that is also not necessarily only derived from religion. The religions were some of original social order came from. Sure - but that doesn't mean we have to do things the way they were done thousands of years ago. I don't follow, Jim. I don't think I ever said that we were supposed to do that. There are plenty of folks who think that "old time religion" is the only way... Democracy came from the Greeks - who were pagans. In fact most of what we consider "western civilization" (the concept of a republic, the dome and the arch, even the alphabet you read these words with) came from Romans, who were pagans too. Mostly, anyway. But we don't honor Zeus anymore. I'm busy with the Turtles myself..... Yes, the Greeks came up with Democracy. And I doubt any religion based society would *ever* engage in democracy. I know of a couple religious organizations that are based on democracy. At least one operates by consensus. Religions *know* how things are supposed to be, and why on earth would they allow any deviation. *Some* religions. Others allow for change, growth, the evolution of spiritual thought and action. But that isn't my point. Most of what is in the Ten Commandments can be easily derived from a pair of questions: "What would a society be like if everyone obeyed that rule?" "What would a society be like if everyone disobeyed that rule?" For example, take stealing. A society composed solely of thieves (people who live by theft rather than production) cannot exist, because pretty soon there will be nothing left to steal. But a society composed of people who don't steal can prosper, because production is the basis of wealth. Therefore stealing is intrinsically "wrong" because it's not productive. We better not stand too hard on that "covet thy neighbors goods stuff, tho'. Depends how you define "covet". Keeping up with the Joneses kind of works that way for me. If my neighbor has a new car, and I want one too, and I work hard and save up to buy one, that's a good thing! That is keeping up with the Joneses And it's a good thing! That's not "coveting" to me. And here we delve into a theological discussion!!! Why not? But if my neighbor has a new car, and I want one too, and I hate him for it, try to steal or damage it, that's a bad thing! A redundant commandment? No. And "not having any other God before me" kind of makes it a problem to post it in the courthouse. Why should a courthouse, which is paid for by taxes, be a place where the specific words of one religion are publicized to the exclusion of others? We agree. When they let me post quotes from the Book of Bokonon next to the Ten Commandments.... I see no problem with private citizens posting their Commandments on public property *if* other private citizens have the same right. I want a turtle holding up the world statue! Turtles all the way down! Flying Spaghetti Monster. (look it up) We are what we are, and our heritage is where it comes from. But not just our heritage. We've gotten beyond a heritage of some people owning other people as property. We've gotten beyond a heritage where people of one gender can vote and people of the other gender cannot. Etc. There are some for whom this new state of being is a problem. Are they "Christians"? They call themselves that. And I guess it is like "art", you can call yourself whatever you can get away with. Calling oneself something does not make it so. I suppose that it is a great comfort to many people to "know" just how things are supposed to be, and to have great faith in that "knowing". Of course. But the faithful have had a long and storied history of depriving others of what they believe is their own faith's fundamental rights. Every freedom carries with it at least one responsibility. Freedom of religion can only extend to those religions that can tolerate each other. (For example, a religion that taught that unbelievers must be murdered cannot claim that such behavior is protected by religious freedom. That case is obvious but many similar cases aren't.) Do you think that Fundies actually want freedom? Certainly for themselves, but I wonder about others..... Sometimes the question is more important than the answer... 73 de Jim, N2EY |
#454
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#455
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wrote: K=D8HB wrote: A lot of them were over-run by married Europeans with syphilis. The Great Nations of Europe Had gathered on the shore They'd conquered what was behind them And now they wanted more So they looked to the mighty ocean And took to the western sea The great nations of Europe in the sixteenth century Hide your wives and daughters Hide the groceries too Great nations of Europe coming through The Grand Canary Islands First land to which they came They slaughtered all the canaries there Which gave the land its name There were natives there called Guanches Guanches by the score Bullets, disease, the Portugese, and they weren't there anymore Now they're gone, they're gone, they're really gone You've never seen anyone so gone They're a picture in a museum Some lines written in a book But you won't find a live one no matter where you look Hide your wives and daughters Hide the groceries too Great nations of Europe coming through Columbus sailed for India Found Salvador instead He shook hands with some Indians and soon they all were dead They got TB and typhoid and athlete's foot Diptheria and the flu 'Scuse me - Great nations coming through! Balboa found the Pacific And on the trail one day He met some friendly Indians Whom he was told were gay So he had them torn apart by dogs on religious grounds they say The great nations of Europe were quite holy in their way Now they're gone, they're gone, they're really gone You've never seen anyone so gone Some bones hidden in a canyon Some paintings in a cave There's no use trying to save them There's nothing left to save Hide your wives and daughters Hide your sons as well With the great nations of Europe you never can tell From where you and I are standing At the dawn of a century Europes have sprung up everyone as even I can see But there on the horizon as a possiblity Some bug from out of Africa might come for you and me Destroying everything in its path From sea to shining sea Like the great nations of Europe In the sixteenth century "Great Nations of Europe" by Randy Newman 73 de Jim, N2EY Jim sure is a smart feller. Always quoting the great people. |
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