From: "Bill Sohl" on Fri 2 Sep 2005 02:08


"Bill Sohl" wrote in message
wrote in message
From: Dan/W4NTI on Sep 1, 5:26 pm

I hope you folks can give a listen to HF during this disaster. It is
amazing how Ham Radio has stepped up to the plate and is providing
Communications where the Commercial infrastructure is destroyed.

"Commercial infrastructure" is defined as anything non-amateur?

Agreed.

Let me revise that.

If non-amateur includes CD, FRS and GMRS then I agree. If by
amateur Len is only referencing the Amateur Service (Part 97)
then I disagree and would suggest the following.

Commercial Infrastructure is anything other than CB, FRS,
GMRS or Amateur Service.

Bill, not to nit-pick, but on the same subject you would have to
add in the NATIONAL GUARD. Definitely not "commercial." One
could also add the National Military Forces should they be
activated; Louisiana NG is already activated within that state.
National Guard has rugged multi-environment equipment and
vehicles.

We can also consider local PUBLIC SAFETY agencies as "non-
commercial" (police, fire, ambulances), could we not? In truth,
New Orleans has only 1,500 police officers, not nearly enough
to properly police things in such a devastated area, but they
do have local radio communications equipment.

---

We ought to consider what BASIC EMERGENCY NEEDS are. Plain survival
always comes first with humans (sex is secondary to survival). For
that the BASIC NEEDS a Food, shelter (dry), toilet, hygiene,
clothing/footwear (as appropriate for climate), medical (as needed,
not all need it immediately), protection/police. That order is
approximate, most-to-least.

In the immediate disaster areas of Louisiana and Mississippi, those
basic needs are being provided (not necessarily all or in order) by
the LOCALS who are within human-voice talking distance of victims.
Most of those BASIC NEEDS come from supplies and/or services and
must be physically delivered. In many observed situations, supplies
and services CANNOT be phsically delivered due to flooding making
roads impassible, existing aerial wires prohibiting helicopter
descents, debris of all kinds inhibiting water or vehicles.

Looking at the overall big picture of SURVIVAL for tens of thousands
of victims, "communications" some distance away is NOT on the BASIC
SURVIVAL need list. Victims want to communicate with immediate
rescuers, helpers, aid people FIRST. They must have BASIC NEEDS.
Once those basic needs are at least partly satisfied, they can
turn their attention to distant communications, to contact family,
friends...but that is NOT in the basic needs listing.

Those of us sitting in safe, dry homes, typing away at keyboards,
have the basic needs at hand, don't need help. Most of us don't
think about them because we aren't in a disaster zone, suffering
the aftermath of widespread destruction, flooding. It is very
easy to talk about radio networks and health and welfare messages
AS IF they were some kind of "basic needs" but those are NOT.
Yes, news to/from family and friends IS important, but, when faced
with a loss of everything or nearly everything in the BASIC NEEDS
FOR SURVIVAL listing, it is way down on the importance priority.

For tens of thousands of humans in Louisiana and Mississippi, the
basic needs for survival are NEEDED NOW. Most don't have a single
one of the basic needs now and none of those can be supplied by a
radio. Local aid people have to handle that, up-close and
personal, ON THE SCENE. Now radio communications CAN be of
service to those local aid people, coordinating their activities
and delivery/distribution of needed supplies/shelter. Such radio
communications is presently being handled by radio facilities that
survived the hurricane and following flooding. Maybe THAT is
where amateur radios (that also survived the hurricane and flooding)
can help. "Health and welfare messages" just wouldn't be on a
disaster victim's immediate needs right now.

We need to put things in perspective...and rationally try to
imagine the plight of victims who have lost almost ALL of their
basic survival necessities.

wrote in message
oups.com...
From: "Bill Sohl" on Fri 2 Sep 2005 02:08


"Bill Sohl" wrote in message
wrote in message
From: Dan/W4NTI on Sep 1, 5:26 pm

I hope you folks can give a listen to HF during this disaster. It is
amazing how Ham Radio has stepped up to the plate and is providing
Communications where the Commercial infrastructure is destroyed.

"Commercial infrastructure" is defined as anything non-amateur?

Agreed.

Let me revise that.

If non-amateur includes CD, FRS and GMRS then I agree. If by
amateur Len is only referencing the Amateur Service (Part 97)
then I disagree and would suggest the following.

Commercial Infrastructure is anything other than CB, FRS,
GMRS or Amateur Service.

Bill, not to nit-pick, but on the same subject you would have to
add in the NATIONAL GUARD. Definitely not "commercial." One
could also add the National Military Forces should they be
activated; Louisiana NG is already activated within that state.
National Guard has rugged multi-environment equipment and
vehicles.

We can also consider local PUBLIC SAFETY agencies as "non-
commercial" (police, fire, ambulances), could we not? In truth,
New Orleans has only 1,500 police officers, not nearly enough
to properly police things in such a devastated area, but they
do have local radio communications equipment.

---

We ought to consider what BASIC EMERGENCY NEEDS are. Plain survival
always comes first with humans (sex is secondary to survival). For
that the BASIC NEEDS a Food, shelter (dry), toilet, hygiene,
clothing/footwear (as appropriate for climate), medical (as needed,
not all need it immediately), protection/police. That order is
approximate, most-to-least.

In the immediate disaster areas of Louisiana and Mississippi, those
basic needs are being provided (not necessarily all or in order) by
the LOCALS who are within human-voice talking distance of victims.
Most of those BASIC NEEDS come from supplies and/or services and
must be physically delivered. In many observed situations, supplies
and services CANNOT be phsically delivered due to flooding making
roads impassible, existing aerial wires prohibiting helicopter
descents, debris of all kinds inhibiting water or vehicles.

Looking at the overall big picture of SURVIVAL for tens of thousands
of victims, "communications" some distance away is NOT on the BASIC
SURVIVAL need list. Victims want to communicate with immediate
rescuers, helpers, aid people FIRST. They must have BASIC NEEDS.
Once those basic needs are at least partly satisfied, they can
turn their attention to distant communications, to contact family,
friends...but that is NOT in the basic needs listing.

Those of us sitting in safe, dry homes, typing away at keyboards,
have the basic needs at hand, don't need help. Most of us don't
think about them because we aren't in a disaster zone, suffering
the aftermath of widespread destruction, flooding. It is very
easy to talk about radio networks and health and welfare messages
AS IF they were some kind of "basic needs" but those are NOT.
Yes, news to/from family and friends IS important, but, when faced
with a loss of everything or nearly everything in the BASIC NEEDS
FOR SURVIVAL listing, it is way down on the importance priority.

For tens of thousands of humans in Louisiana and Mississippi, the
basic needs for survival are NEEDED NOW. Most don't have a single
one of the basic needs now and none of those can be supplied by a
radio. Local aid people have to handle that, up-close and
personal, ON THE SCENE. Now radio communications CAN be of
service to those local aid people, coordinating their activities
and delivery/distribution of needed supplies/shelter. Such radio
communications is presently being handled by radio facilities that
survived the hurricane and following flooding. Maybe THAT is
where amateur radios (that also survived the hurricane and flooding)
can help. "Health and welfare messages" just wouldn't be on a
disaster victim's immediate needs right now.

True to a point, but there's also been no shortage of victims making
an efffort to let others know they are safe. Not every victim there is
only inward focused on their own basic needs.

We need to put things in perspective...and rationally try to
imagine the plight of victims who have lost almost ALL of their
basic survival necessities.

Agreed...and the only point I am trying to make is
that amateur radio can and is oproviding help for
communications. Whatever help that may be, it is still
of value and would not necessarily be happening by
other (commercial/military/whatever) services because
ALL the help resources are already maxed to their limit.

Bill K2UNK

Bill Sohl wrote:
wrote in message
oups.com...
From: "Bill Sohl" on Fri 2 Sep 2005 02:08


"Bill Sohl" wrote in message
cut
For tens of thousands of humans in Louisiana and Mississippi, the
basic needs for survival are NEEDED NOW. Most don't have a single
one of the basic needs now and none of those can be supplied by a
radio. Local aid people have to handle that, up-close and
personal, ON THE SCENE. Now radio communications CAN be of
service to those local aid people, coordinating their activities
and delivery/distribution of needed supplies/shelter. Such radio
communications is presently being handled by radio facilities that
survived the hurricane and following flooding. Maybe THAT is
where amateur radios (that also survived the hurricane and flooding)
can help. "Health and welfare messages" just wouldn't be on a
disaster victim's immediate needs right now.

True to a point, but there's also been no shortage of victims making
an efffort to let others know they are safe. Not every victim there is
only inward focused on their own basic needs.

We need to put things in perspective...and rationally try to
imagine the plight of victims who have lost almost ALL of their
basic survival necessities.

Agreed...and the only point I am trying to make is
that amateur radio can and is oproviding help for
communications. Whatever help that may be, it is still
of value and would not necessarily be happening by
other (commercial/military/whatever) services because
ALL the help resources are already maxed to their limit.

And Len is pointing that it seems that Hams in here and the ARRL it
publication is rateing the importance of that aid the ARS does provide
and inflating it.

In his opinion and mine to point of turning it into something of a Lie

Ham radio provides useful, important, and valuble aid in a disaster
(esp in one of this size) but it is in the ssecondary (but important
feilds) very if any of the Ham radio is all that VITAL, and we (hams)
are fooling ourselves if we think otherwise

It is if I may presume to speack for Len the sin of hubris that Len
cautions against (as do I)

Hubris is dangerous if we are seen as too full of hubris instaed taking
our due credit,we the ARS may be seen by the powers that be as unworthy
of the freqs we hold

Be proud Hams, but claim no glory not due us, there is enough due us

Bill K2UNK

"an_old_friend" wrote in message
ups.com...

Bill Sohl wrote:
wrote in message
oups.com...
From: "Bill Sohl" on Fri 2 Sep 2005 02:08


"Bill Sohl" wrote in message
cut
For tens of thousands of humans in Louisiana and Mississippi, the
basic needs for survival are NEEDED NOW. Most don't have a single
one of the basic needs now and none of those can be supplied by a
radio. Local aid people have to handle that, up-close and
personal, ON THE SCENE. Now radio communications CAN be of
service to those local aid people, coordinating their activities
and delivery/distribution of needed supplies/shelter. Such radio
communications is presently being handled by radio facilities that
survived the hurricane and following flooding. Maybe THAT is
where amateur radios (that also survived the hurricane and flooding)
can help. "Health and welfare messages" just wouldn't be on a
disaster victim's immediate needs right now.

True to a point, but there's also been no shortage of victims making
an efffort to let others know they are safe. Not every victim there is
only inward focused on their own basic needs.

We need to put things in perspective...and rationally try to
imagine the plight of victims who have lost almost ALL of their
basic survival necessities.

Agreed...and the only point I am trying to make is
that amateur radio can and is oproviding help for
communications. Whatever help that may be, it is still
of value and would not necessarily be happening by
other (commercial/military/whatever) services because
ALL the help resources are already maxed to their limit.

And Len is pointing that it seems that Hams in here and the ARRL it
publication is rateing the importance of that aid the ARS does provide
and inflating it.

In his opinion and mine to point of turning it into something of a Lie

Ham radio provides useful, important, and valuble aid in a disaster
(esp in one of this size) but it is in the ssecondary (but important
feilds) very if any of the Ham radio is all that VITAL, and we (hams)
are fooling ourselves if we think otherwise

It is if I may presume to speack for Len the sin of hubris that Len
cautions against (as do I)

Hubris is dangerous if we are seen as too full of hubris instaed taking
our due credit,we the ARS may be seen by the powers that be as unworthy
of the freqs we hold

From everything I've heard so far, as a result of Hurricane Katrina,
we (hams) will be viewed as considerably worthy of the frequencies
we are allowed to operate on.

Be proud Hams, but claim no glory not due us, there is enough due us

Agree completely, but I don't see any hams claiming any undue
glory to begin with.

Cheers,
Bill K2UNK

Bill Sohl wrote:
"an_old_friend" wrote in message
ups.com...

Bill Sohl wrote:
wrote in message
oups.com...
From: "Bill Sohl" on Fri 2 Sep 2005 02:08


"Bill Sohl" wrote in message
cut
For tens of thousands of humans in Louisiana and Mississippi, the
basic needs for survival are NEEDED NOW. Most don't have a single
one of the basic needs now and none of those can be supplied by a
radio. Local aid people have to handle that, up-close and
personal, ON THE SCENE. Now radio communications CAN be of
service to those local aid people, coordinating their activities
and delivery/distribution of needed supplies/shelter. Such radio
communications is presently being handled by radio facilities that
survived the hurricane and following flooding. Maybe THAT is
where amateur radios (that also survived the hurricane and flooding)
can help. "Health and welfare messages" just wouldn't be on a
disaster victim's immediate needs right now.

True to a point, but there's also been no shortage of victims making
an efffort to let others know they are safe. Not every victim there is
only inward focused on their own basic needs.

We need to put things in perspective...and rationally try to
imagine the plight of victims who have lost almost ALL of their
basic survival necessities.

Agreed...and the only point I am trying to make is
that amateur radio can and is oproviding help for
communications. Whatever help that may be, it is still
of value and would not necessarily be happening by
other (commercial/military/whatever) services because
ALL the help resources are already maxed to their limit.

And Len is pointing that it seems that Hams in here and the ARRL it
publication is rateing the importance of that aid the ARS does provide
and inflating it.

In his opinion and mine to point of turning it into something of a Lie

Ham radio provides useful, important, and valuble aid in a disaster
(esp in one of this size) but it is in the ssecondary (but important
feilds) very if any of the Ham radio is all that VITAL, and we (hams)
are fooling ourselves if we think otherwise

It is if I may presume to speack for Len the sin of hubris that Len
cautions against (as do I)

Hubris is dangerous if we are seen as too full of hubris instaed taking
our due credit,we the ARS may be seen by the powers that be as unworthy
of the freqs we hold

From everything I've heard so far, as a result of Hurricane Katrina,
we (hams) will be viewed as considerably worthy of the frequencies
we are allowed to operate on.

as do I but if we make it more than it is we risk damaging the the
value of that service in maintaining our freqs

Indeed we have seen some of the regs in here spend years calling those
that even want to discuss how much we are doing and its value savagely
attacked by others for even bring the question up

I think it is vital that we all take a GOOD look at this disaster and
be very careful what we say about it and about our roles in it

Be proud Hams, but claim no glory not due us, there is enough due us

Agree completely, but I don't see any hams claiming any undue
glory to begin with.

But i see hams, here at least, dismissing the efforts and uses of other
means, indeed even insulting them. Over the years frankly at best
bluring the lines of what we have have done, and I am guessing we will
see more later later in print (based on past write ups or other
disasters)

Cheers,
Bill K2UNK

Bill Sohl wrote:

"an_old_friend" wrote in message

snip

Be proud Hams, but claim no glory not due us, there is enough due us


Agree completely, but I don't see any hams claiming any undue
glory to begin with.

Who decides?

For some in this group. any is too much.

- Mike KB3EIA -

Health and Welfare traffic is lower priority but it's still important
for people to know that their friends/relatives are okay and they know
he's okay too. Then they can attend to matters at hand with a clearer
head. Ham radio offloads H&W from police/govt/mil comm links so they
have enough bandwidth to handle the high priority stuff.

"Bob" wrote in message
oups.com...
Health and Welfare traffic is lower priority but it's still important
for people to know that their friends/relatives are okay and they know
he's okay too. Then they can attend to matters at hand with a clearer
head. Ham radio offloads H&W from police/govt/mil comm links so they
have enough bandwidth to handle the high priority stuff.


Sure H&W is of less importance. Saving lives is the highest priority. But
you know something? It sure made me feel good when I delivered those
messages from the disaster area. That is worth all the BS I read in here.

Dan/W4NTI

Dan/W4NTI wrote:
"Bob" wrote in message
oups.com...
Health and Welfare traffic is lower priority but it's still important
for people to know that their friends/relatives are okay and they know
he's okay too. Then they can attend to matters at hand with a clearer
head. Ham radio offloads H&W from police/govt/mil comm links so they
have enough bandwidth to handle the high priority stuff.


Sure H&W is of less importance. Saving lives is the highest priority. But
you know something? It sure made me feel good when I delivered those
messages from the disaster area. That is worth all the BS I read in here.

thank you for making my point so well Dan

Hams don't look with much real objectivity on their role in disasters

Dan/W4NTI

On Fri, 02 Sep 2005 16:24:36 GMT, "Bill Sohl"
wrote in
. net:

snip
Be proud Hams, but claim no glory not due us, there is enough due us

Agree completely, but I don't see any hams claiming any undue
glory to begin with.


Maybe, maybe not. But it sure wouldn't hurt to postpone the medal
presentation ceremonies until -after- they find and bury all the
bodies.







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