Dave wrote:

wrote in message
oups.com...

Michael Coslo wrote:

wrote:

Michael Coslo wrote:

Don't agree. First responders are not "radio operators", they're
firefighters, medics, police at multiple levels and all the rest. Given
a big enough disaster like the New Orleans hurricane onsite FEMA
operatives, the Coast Guard, any number of military units from all the
services also land in the middle of it.


I must not have made myself clear Brian. The answer is not in freeing
up the BW now occupied by analog television. The answer for
communications in a disaster is trained and competent operators.

I agree with all that.


And the trained operators should be called in when the regular comms
first go out, not after a few days.

I don't agree here - depending on what I think you mean by "trained
operators". Local governments can't train and store reserve
dispatchers who are only activated for drills in preparation for major
emergencies, won't work. Emergency dispatching is an art and skill
which has to be used on a very regular basis or the dispatchers lose
the edge they need to do the job properly when a "big one" hits
unexpectedly.

In those cases the local authorities can call up all shifts of their
regular crews to get a sufficient amount of manpower and their reserve
radios on the air. But in order to get any benefit out of an approach
like this the dispatch centers have to be able to almost immediately be
expanded and able to keep operating thru hell and high water for an
extended period. None of those type facilities are in place that I've
ever heard about.


What I think should happen is the development and deployment of some
sort of "super" emergency operations centers staffed by highly trained
dispatchers who know how to seamlessly patch the first responder
specialists making the initial call into the specific specialists they
need to contact.

I doubt that there will be the money for that. Good idea tho'.

A couple $80 million civil AWACs planes and $10 million a year to
maintain and staff 'em is chicken feed. Problem is that Haliburton will
have already drained the till before Boeing and Motorola get their
passes at it.


- Mike KB3EIA -

w3rv



it seems like the key is that there is no bridge between the various
agencies that can coordinate the activities. the red herring is that their
radios can't talk to each other.

Yup. It is a function of bandwidth, distance, congestion and other
stuff like that.



in most metro areas there are adequate
frequencies and equipment to coordinate the local activities, and plenty of
dispatchers to do the job... keeping them on the air during a disaster may
be a problem that could be addressed, but its not a frequency allocation
question, its more of making sure they have adequate facilities and backups.
I would bet that most police and fire and even local emergency operating
center personnel would agree that they would not want the feds showing up
and starting to talk to them on their existing frequencies, they are going
to be busy enough with their own work and don't need an outside group
showing up trying to 'help' them who isn't familiar with their normal
operating procedures, the area, the people, and all that other stuff.

what would appear to be needed is a way for fema, national guard, coast
guard, etc to get coordinated with the local authorities... and to do that
there are really 2 or 3 levels of coordination needed:

There is a way. Exists right now. The problem in this particular
disaster is that the emergency services lagged way behind the disaster.


1. planning, pre-positioning, testing, training, all that stuff that happens
BEFORE a disaster. all the plans in the world are great until you walk into
the eoc and can't plug in your equipment because the connectors are wrong,
or the local official starts talking about doing one thing and the plan you
have in hand calls for something else.
2. strategic coordination... that high level, big area, stuff... the
governor's level decisions vs feds and national agencies about when to send
them in, where and when are they to take over operations and who has over
all control, when to evacuate and where to, etc. this would seem to be one
of the big areas where Louisiana had problems.
3. tactical coordination... this seems to be where some people think the
problem is, this is where frequency allocations and equipment compatibility
come into play. i.e. what happens when the local red cross and national
guard meet the local fire department at the evacuation center, who talks to
who and on what radio and using which jargon. I don't think in most cases
that this really requires all that much new stuff, if the first two levels
of coordination have been worked out then this should be simple... get one
person from each agency that needs to work together and sit them down in a
fixed or mobile command post and let them do their thing. frequent training
of these groups is one thing that is probably missing these days... how
often do radio operators and officers from national guard units, fema, and
other agencies sit down and run exercises with local police and fire and
redcross and hams?

The problem as I see it is that the radio comms are kind of like a
swimming duck. Above the water line there is not a lot of stuff going
on. Below the line is all kinds of activity.

Are the emergency organizations going to employ pay and train competent
radio operators who are capable of figuring out where they need to be
frequency wise? I doubt it. If so, I wanna apply for that job.

In this group, we've discussed the contesting issue, in which others
and myself have claimed that it is practice for emergency operations.
One regular poster in particular heaps a lot of scorn on those who
believe it is practice. But it is.

These operators would have to be frequency agile, as well as know what
frequency that they should use in a given situation. They need to be
able to copy weak signals, and be patient.

But I can just about wager a months salary that whatever "new" system
we end up with, it will be heavily infrastructure dependent, and
designed so that someone who knows nothing about radio and electronics
will just mash their PTT button. And it will work perfectly in drills.
And it will fail miserably when the "big one" hits it.

Then the hams with their "old technology" will come out of the woodwork
again.

- Mike KB3EIA -

"Michael Coslo" wrote


Are the emergency organizations going to employ pay and train competent radio
operators who are capable of figuring out where they need to be frequency
wise?

"First responders" are not radio operators. They are firemen, policemen,
medical personel, ambulance drivers, etc., etc., etc. To these people a radio
is just another tool --- they need to just "mash the PTT" like you describe, and
communicate their message.

THIS IS EXACTLY AS IT SHOULD BE! Communications should be transparent to these
people, and require no training at all beyond simple circuit procedures.

The failures of communications in New Orleans were not because of lack of
spectrum, nor lack of "competent radio operators", but lack of properly hardened
communications facilities, and lack of backup for those facilities.

Prime example --- the New Orleans PD EDACS MA/Comm 800 MHz radio system
functioned well during and immediately after the hurricane, but then natural gas
service to the prime downtown transmitter site was disrupted and the generator
was out. (No gas, no generator. No generator, no transmitter.) Owners of the
site would not allow installation of LP gas tanks as a backup to piped gas,
meaning generators did not have any fuel when the main lines were cut.

Further compounding the situation was the fact that the PD EDACS acted as a hub
of the area Inter-Operation system with 17 hard-patched RF links to a variety of
other agencies in NO and nearby cities/parishes. When the EDACS went down, it
pulled all those inter-op links down with it and the whole first-responder comm
system imploded, reduced to little "islands" of communications that couldn't
inter-communicate. Airlifting a thousand "competent radio operators" into the
area would not have improved communications at the level of the "feet on the
street" cop, fireman, or medical person one iota.

As I see it, two mundane planning changes could have prevented this train
wreck....

1) Emergency fuel supplies at the transmitter site (a 2,000 pound tank of
LP lasts weeks).
2) A star or mesh (rather than a hub) topology of the mutual-aid/other
interop links which didn't allow a single point of failure to crash the whole
system.

73, de Hans, K0HB

KØHB wrote:

"Michael Coslo" wrote


Are the emergency organizations going to employ pay and train competent radio
operators who are capable of figuring out where they need to be frequency
wise?


"First responders" are not radio operators. They are firemen, policemen,
medical personel, ambulance drivers, etc., etc., etc. To these people a radio
is just another tool --- they need to just "mash the PTT" like you describe, and
communicate their message.

THIS IS EXACTLY AS IT SHOULD BE! Communications should be transparent to these
people, and require no training at all beyond simple circuit procedures.

Design the system that will always be up, will allow anyone to
communicate to anyone anywhere with no knowledge of anything by the
users, aside from turning the radio on, adjusting the audio, and mashin'
that button.

Then pay for it!

Then watch what happens when the big one hits.





The failures of communications in New Orleans were not because of lack of
spectrum, nor lack of "competent radio operators", but lack of properly hardened
communications facilities, and lack of backup for those facilities.

They probably needed backup for the backup too....

Prime example --- the New Orleans PD EDACS MA/Comm 800 MHz radio system
functioned well during and immediately after the hurricane, but then natural gas
service to the prime downtown transmitter site was disrupted and the generator
was out. (No gas, no generator. No generator, no transmitter.) Owners of the
site would not allow installation of LP gas tanks as a backup to piped gas,
meaning generators did not have any fuel when the main lines were cut.

You suggesting reactors for power supplies?

The hyper complicated system that you describe only adds to the
infrastructure needed to support the system.



Further compounding the situation was the fact that the PD EDACS acted as a hub
of the area Inter-Operation system with 17 hard-patched RF links to a variety of
other agencies in NO and nearby cities/parishes. When the EDACS went down, it
pulled all those inter-op links down with it and the whole first-responder comm
system imploded, reduced to little "islands" of communications that couldn't
inter-communicate. Airlifting a thousand "competent radio operators" into the
area would not have improved communications at the level of the "feet on the
street" cop, fireman, or medical person one iota.

As I see it, two mundane planning changes could have prevented this train
wreck....

1) Emergency fuel supplies at the transmitter site (a 2,000 pound tank of
LP lasts weeks).
2) A star or mesh (rather than a hub) topology of the mutual-aid/other
interop links which didn't allow a single point of failure to crash the whole
system.

You're coming in on the end of the issue with suggestions of how the
beginning should be handled. You'll admit that is a lot simpler?

I suspect that nature can eventually beat anything that we can design.
What if it was a Cat 5 storm? What if the base of the bulletproof system
was washed away?

I doing a bit of devils advocate here Hans. Your ideas are good,
especially the mesh idea as opposed to a hub. But nature has a way of
accelerating entropy that beats most of the things that we can come up with.

- Mike KB3EIA -

"Michael Coslo" wrote

Design the system that will always be up, will allow anyone to communicate to
anyone anywhere with no knowledge of anything by the users, aside from turning
the radio on, adjusting the audio, and mashin' that button.


You have it precisely correct. I knew you'd catch on!


You suggesting reactors for power supplies?


Where did I suggest that?


The hyper complicated system that you describe only adds to the infrastructure
needed to support the system.


Actually, the EDACS at New Orleans was pretty compact, simple, and
straightforward compared to most major metropolitan areas. Certainly wasn't
"hyper complicated".


Your ideas are good

Of course they are. I made my living for many years in telecommunications
planning/configuration.


--
73, de Hans, K0HB
--
Homepage:
http://www.home.earthlink.net/~k0hb
Member:
ARRL http://www.arrl.org
SOC http://www.qsl.net/soc
VWOA http://www.vwoa.org
A-1 Operator Club http://www.arrl.org/awards/a1-op/
TCDXA http://www.tcdxa.org
MWA http://www.w0aa.org
TCFMC http://www.tcfmc.org
FISTS http://www.fists.org
LVDXA http://www.upstel.net/borken/lvdxa.htm
NCI http://www.nocode.org

From: K=D8=88B on Sep 15, 12:20 pm


"Michael Coslo" wrote

Design the system that will always be up, will allow anyone to communica=
te to
anyone anywhere with no knowledge of anything by the users, aside from t=
urning
the radio on, adjusting the audio, and mashin' that button.

You have it precisely correct. I knew you'd catch on!

Takes Michael a LONG time to catch on. I doubt if he'd make a
good First Responder. :-)


You suggesting reactors for power supplies?

Where did I suggest that?

You didn't, Hans, but Michael may be hyped on "cold fusion." What
he seems to be fusing is dissent.

ANY startable emergency electric power generator is good if there is
STORABLE fuel at the ready. It was so in the 1950s and the good old
PE-95 truck-transportable diesel motor run generator. [used to fire
one up on the bimonthly readiness check at FEC Hq in Tokyo, in the
blockhouse at Pershing Heights, now the Hq of the Japanese Self
Defense Force]

In the FIRST east coast electrical blackout, one NYC hospital didn't
do good planning. They had a good electric power generator, but the
compressed-air STARTER (big diesel engines for that usually used
compressed air) was operated from 230 VAC! Luckily they were able
to borrow a roll-around gasoline-powered compressor to start their
electric generator. :-)

Back then in the 60s the FAA had air regs that all airport runway
lighting had to have emergency electric generation. The FAA had
forgotten to include regs for all the ATC radios! Pilots in the
air managed to "direct" their own traffic and nobody in the air was
hurt. FAA added/amended regs to include generators shortly after.

A couple decades later, another generation of beaurocrats later,
they didn't plan well enough on the Los Angeles Center ATC
"upgrade" in Palmdale. Result was an outage of several hours
due to a not-fully-tested auto-start-generator computer tie-in
system. Some folks just don't want to listen to what had already
been experienced, thought they had all the answers, didn't TEST
all the "innovations."


The hyper complicated system that you describe only adds to the infrastr=
ucture
needed to support the system.

Actually, the EDACS at New Orleans was pretty compact, simple, and
straightforward compared to most major metropolitan areas. Certainly wasn=
't
"hyper complicated".

The Greater Los Angeles area could be described as having a "hyper-
complicated" public safety radio area. Thing is, every one of
the 84 cities and suburbs got together, including the County and
State, making a workable system with fall-back provisions and
contingency accommodations. It got the acid test nearly a dozen
years ago and PASSED. The lessons learned were incorporated later
to improve it.

New Orleans, mostly built on ground BELOW sea level (I didn't know
that before Katrina hit), should have had enough small boats for
all those First Responders. Did they? Didn't seem like many on
the TV news. Most radios don't float well. Neither do the folks
(First Responders) who "just mash their PTT buttons" NOR the hams.

Your ideas are good

Of course they are. I made my living for many years in telecommunications
planning/configuration.

Your ideas are good to me even if you didn't have the background.
Logical thinking and consideration of ALL factors are necessary.

Contingency thinking, being able to do work-arounds for the
unexpected, is an absolute necessity of managers. Case in point
occurred locally at the Burbank Airport (now Bob Hope Airport)
nearly four decades ago. The FAA control tower in the old
terminal building was above the main restaurant at the airport.
On a Saturday there was a big grease fire in the restaurant
kitchen requiring evacuation of all, including tower personnel.
FAA had no plans for any backup. Neighboring airport towers
advised all of the situation, a few air carriers diverted to
land elsewhere. Meanwhile, Pacific Airomotive, a big aviation
service company at BUR, grabbed some of their radio gear and
set up a makeshift tower communications place on one of their
large trucks now emplaced near the runway intersection. FAA
was happy and rules changes by telephone made it "legal."
That was completed within three hours of the evac order. That
temporary "tower" functioned for over a week afterwards until
the regular tower was deemed habitable and a few toasted wires
replaced. I heard most of it over a civil aviation band
receiver, including a radio news helicopter hovering near the
temporary "tower" getting the news data for live feed on BC.

The FAA didn't throw up their hands and vamoose. Pac Aero was
neighborly and responsive, had enough radio gear to make it
happen with the aid of two other local aero service companies.
The only ones hurt were the owners of the restaurant suffering
bank account attacks; it never opened again. Flights resumed
though there was more airfreight then (Flying Tigers). Those
involved "knew their territory" and managed work-arounds. A
decade later a new FAA tower was built very near the site of
the temporary one. Folks in management positions acted
positively, innovatively, and MADE IT HAPPEN.

Len:

I have given "free power" quite a bit of thought. Even if a method
existed, all govt's, indeed, all peoples would almost be fools to allow it
to be unleashed. (and my "conspiracy theory mentality" notices a few
strange deaths of individuals evolving themselves with such efforts--but
probably just a coincidence grin)

Think about a muslim terrorist (or a group of them!) with an unlimited
energy supply, perhaps we would be wise in what we wish for--I can easily
imagine a scenario which makes the new orleans disaster look mild...

John


.... MAJOR SNIP! ...

From: John Smith on Sep 16, 7:12 am

Len:

I have given "free power" quite a bit of thought. Even if a method
existed, all govt's, indeed, all peoples would almost be fools to allow it
to be unleashed. (and my "conspiracy theory mentality" notices a few
strange deaths of individuals evolving themselves with such efforts--but
probably just a coincidence grin)

John, you are starting to get into the "how many angels dance on
the head of a pin" sort of discussion. Not my cuppa...

Think about a muslim terrorist (or a group of them!) with an unlimited
energy supply, perhaps we would be wise in what we wish for--I can easily
imagine a scenario which makes the new orleans disaster look mild...

Then write a book on it. For the fiction genre you are up against
Tom Clancy and his bestsellers currently undergoing reprints for
the stands. For fictional documentary sort of claptrap you still
have good old Erich von Daniken alive and still unwell in der
Schweiz [see "In Search of Ancient Astronauts"].

For REAL DISASTER EMERGENCY ELECTRICAL POWER practical situations
there are, and have been for some time, for 24-hour service:

1. Diesel motors driving rotary electrical generators, having
storable diesel oil fuel.

2. Gasoline motors driving rotary electrical generators, having
storable gasoline fuel.

3. Liquified gas fueled motors driving rotary electrical
generators, the liquified gas storable for long periods.

4. Jet propellant fueled turbines driving rotary electrical
generators, the jet propellant storable for long periods.

5. Hybrid steam turbines, fueled by a variety of storable fuels
to heat water to steam which drives the turbine which, in
turn drives a rotary electrical generator. Nuclear
electrical generators fall into this category with the
storable fuel in the form of radioactive elements providing
heat from radioactive decay.

6. Wind-driven (turbine-like) rotary electrical generators,
subject to varying wind conditions.

7. Thermoelectric junction DC electrical generators using many
different forms of storable, combustible fuels. Once popular
in Russia and the USSR but generally low power output.

For very low power drain electrical loads there are a variety of
forms of manually-cranked, spring-driven motive forces for
rotary electrical generators or "primary" (use once)
electrochemical reaction "batteries." All are storable.

"Secondary" (use many times) batteries require periodic recharging
to alter their internal electrochemistry, such electrical recharge
provided by any of the preceding seven generator types. Within
limits of their electrochemistry system, those are storable.

Solar cells haven't been listed because the Earth's rotation
prevents 24-hour continuous illumination/energy-intake to operate.

All of the above have much literature and data available for
consultation/learning/teaching/etc., including books.

A complex hybrid solar boiler and heat storage medium typified
by the Mojave, CA, "Solar One" and "Solar Two" 50 MWe pilot plants
experimented by a consortium of California utility companies.
Those are too massive to consider for emergency electric power
generation; "Solar One" had over 300 heliostats (tracking mirrors
forming a segmented mirror to focus solar energy on a central
boiler). [been there, worked on that...]

There are variants which have been publicized, such as tidal
water flow driven electrical generators, but those have not yet
been made a size suitable for transportable emergency electric
power generation.

For real-life, tried-and-proven electrical power necessary to
effect radio communication in disaster/emergency situations, one
should turn to one of the seven STORABLE FUEL systems listed.
That's REALITY.

However, in here, REALITY results in a few whiny little mal-
contents far from disaster areas ****ing and moaning fantasies
of heroism and amateurs being First Responders. Those begrudge
all who don't buy into their fantasies as "hating ham radio!"

From: Michael Coslo on Wed 14 Sep 2005 16:23


Dave wrote:
wrote in message
Michael Coslo wrote:
wrote:
Michael Coslo wrote:


it seems like the key is that there is no bridge between the various
agencies that can coordinate the activities. the red herring is that their
radios can't talk to each other.

Yup. It is a function of bandwidth, distance, congestion and other
stuff like that.

Disagree. It is PLANNING AHEAD for contingencies. Case in point
is the so-called "Tactical" channels used by the LAPD. Normal
operation of radio units uses a common working frequency. Where
more than one group of radio units need to work together, they use
a "TAC" (for tactical) channel that is preassigned...such as "TAC
ONE" or "TAC TWO." LAPD has the planning on what to do if a base
station is suddenly inoperative. The same goes for the LAFD.

In the workload of public safety radio services, they are NOT
playing radio games or "working weak signals" or the other
radio-only activities done by amateurs. They have their regular
duties NOT involving playing with radios.


what would appear to be needed is a way for fema, national guard, coast
guard, etc to get coordinated with the local authorities... and to do that
there are really 2 or 3 levels of coordination needed:

There is a way. Exists right now. The problem in this particular
disaster is that the emergency services lagged way behind the disaster.

PLANNING AHEAD sometimes lags behind...but that is NOT due to
the alleged "lack of spectrum" as a reporter wrote.

With NO fall-back on contingency planning the agencies fall down.

That's an ORGANIZATIONAL PLANNING thing, something to be done way
ahead of time. A small part of that is radio use. If worst comes
to absolute worst, "communications" can be effected by runners
(couriers, hand-carrying messages between operations bases as was
done in ancient military times)...individuals who carry messages
by hand or by mind or whatever to keep the bases in touch.

Let's look at what was observed and uncovered by news services
about New Orleans. That city has been on the edge of the Gulf
of Mexico for well over a century and has expanded such that
over half of it is BELOW sea level, BELOW lake level. They
depend on a dozen-plus huge pumps to continuously drain the
city. Do they have a fall-back plan in case of pump failure
or levee breach? Doesn't seem so. Centralized communications
bases with no secondary bases planned, not enough some small
boats to get around, not enough "high-rise" vehicles to get
through shallow flooded areas. No interconnecting streets
from above sea level areas to other above sea level areas...or
dedicated communications lines that would be above sea level.

Anyone who has looked at TV news coverage should have seen
dozens and dozens of big yellow school busses sitting in a
flooded motor pool (apt name, "motor pool") EMPTY and unused.
"High rise" types which have greater-than-average-vehicle road
clearance and could have gotten through for evacuation before
the flooding was complete. UNUSED in the one-day pre-storm
evacuation order issued by the Mayor. Each of those school
busses would have been more than adequate to hold portable
radio base stations with operators after transporting evacuees
to higher ground.


The problem as I see it is that the radio comms are kind of like a
swimming duck. Above the water line there is not a lot of stuff going
on. Below the line is all kinds of activity.

What in the world are you trying to say there?


Are the emergency organizations going to employ pay and train competent
radio operators who are capable of figuring out where they need to be
frequency wise? I doubt it. If so, I wanna apply for that job.

You want to be in a group that was inept at planning ahead?

Clue: MANAGEMENT of a city is SUPPOSED to do that PLANNING AHEAD
(of some sort) to handle emergency contingencies. It is NOT "up
to the 'radio operators' to seek out 'new operating locales.'"


In this group, we've discussed the contesting issue, in which others
and myself have claimed that it is practice for emergency operations.
One regular poster in particular heaps a lot of scorn on those who
believe it is practice. But it is.

"Scorn?" No. IMPROPER ANALOGUES, yes. Have YOU EVER worked in
any sudden emergency situation? Explain how that is "comparable"
to radio contesting.

These operators would have to be frequency agile, as well as know what
frequency that they should use in a given situation. They need to be
able to copy weak signals, and be patient.

No, those operators MUST KNOW THEIR LAND TERRITORY and ORGANIZATION
of all the First Responders. They MUST KNOW and be ABLE TO
IMPROVISE IMMEDIATELY if part of that pre-esisting organization
becomes incommunicative or inoperable or cut off by such things as
impassible roadways.

A sudden emergency/disaster condition involves LIFE and DEATH.
NO radio contact contest is about life and death.

But I can just about wager a months salary that whatever "new" system
we end up with, it will be heavily infrastructure dependent, and
designed so that someone who knows nothing about radio and electronics
will just mash their PTT button. And it will work perfectly in drills.
And it will fail miserably when the "big one" hits it.

Make your one month salary amount payable to the American Red Cross.
You lost BIG TIME. I'll just cite a near-"big one" incident that
happened 11 1/2 years ago...precisely at a little past 4:30 AM on
17 January 1994. The Northridge Earthquake. TOTAL primary
electrical power failure for 10 million residents. Several building
collapses. 53 died directly. One natural gas distribution main line
fractured and on fire. Some freeway overpasses collapsed, blocking
all vehicles there.

The Emergency Communications Center for Greater Los Angeles was
functional, ramping up as more and more personnel arrived. PDs had
emergency electrical power for base stations, as did FDs. FDs were
alerted and informed through leased telephone lines that did NOT go
through telephone switching centers, thus remaining open, working.
LAFD was rolling on many fires, one I could see from my high back
yard vantage point (hard to miss against total blackness). Even
the utilities were equipped with emergency power. Mobiles kept on
working and rolling; one LAPD vehicle went face down a collapsed
overpass when unable to stop in time. Utility workers were called
up on the infrastructure telephone system, told were to report for
work. The infrastructure communications system WORKED and the First
Responders responded and started on their enormous work load, all
by just "mashing their PTT buttons" and communicating.

Then the hams with their "old technology" will come out of the woodwork
again.

They did NOT do so here 11 1/2 years ago. This terrible infra-
structure that was supposed to "fail" did NOT fail.

Yes, NORMAL telephone service was bogged down AT FIRST by panic.
That settled down. Utilities could call through their leased
lines OUT to workers; that plan was in place and working. There
was adequate EM spectrum allocation for all concerned to do
First Responding. PLANNING and drilling and ORGANIZATION done
well before the event tied everyone together. The enormity of
the repair workload ahead rather put a damper on "playing with
radios" or "fooling around, tuning a band for new contacts."
There was NO warning, NO time to prepare ahead. For any sudden
emergency event a PLAN - with sufficient drilling and training -
MUST exist beforehand. If radio amateurs are a part of that
plan, fine. They can help. But, such a PLAN must concern the
FIRST RESPONDERS first. THEY are the ones ON THE SCENE first.

Now all you easties can bitch and moan and call names of "six
land" people and all that, but we DO have plans that have been
PROVEN by ACTUAL TEST to WORK. In a sudden emergency with
absolutely NO warning.

The Gulf Coast region had over three days warning to prepare.
Did they have an adequate PLAN of how to handle anything? Ask
them. If you need some ideas on what to do and how to plan,
come west. We've done it and survived. Or maybe you can go to
the storm-ravaged, disaster-prone region south of Hartford and
learn all there is to know to be prepared? Your option.

wrote:
From: Michael Coslo on Wed 14 Sep 2005 16:23


Dave wrote:
wrote in message
Michael Coslo wrote:
wrote:
Michael Coslo wrote:


it seems like the key is that there is no bridge between the various
agencies that can coordinate the activities. the red herring is that their
radios can't talk to each other.

Yup. It is a function of bandwidth, distance, congestion and other
stuff like that.

Disagree. It is PLANNING AHEAD for contingencies. Case in point
is the so-called "Tactical" channels used by the LAPD. Normal
operation of radio units uses a common working frequency. Where
more than one group of radio units need to work together, they use
a "TAC" (for tactical) channel that is preassigned...such as "TAC
ONE" or "TAC TWO." LAPD has the planning on what to do if a base
station is suddenly inoperative. The same goes for the LAFD.

In the workload of public safety radio services, they are NOT
playing radio games or "working weak signals" or the other
radio-only activities done by amateurs. They have their regular
duties NOT involving playing with radios.


what would appear to be needed is a way for fema, national guard, coast
guard, etc to get coordinated with the local authorities... and to do that
there are really 2 or 3 levels of coordination needed:

There is a way. Exists right now. The problem in this particular
disaster is that the emergency services lagged way behind the disaster.

PLANNING AHEAD sometimes lags behind...but that is NOT due to
the alleged "lack of spectrum" as a reporter wrote.

With NO fall-back on contingency planning the agencies fall down.

That's an ORGANIZATIONAL PLANNING thing, something to be done way
ahead of time. A small part of that is radio use. If worst comes
to absolute worst, "communications" can be effected by runners
(couriers, hand-carrying messages between operations bases as was
done in ancient military times)...individuals who carry messages
by hand or by mind or whatever to keep the bases in touch.

Hand carry is still done in some cases for security, or as a back up

Let's look at what was observed and uncovered by news services
about New Orleans. That city has been on the edge of the Gulf
of Mexico for well over a century and has expanded such that
over half of it is BELOW sea level, BELOW lake level. They
depend on a dozen-plus huge pumps to continuously drain the
city. Do they have a fall-back plan in case of pump failure
or levee breach? Doesn't seem so. Centralized communications
bases with no secondary bases planned, not enough some small
boats to get around, not enough "high-rise" vehicles to get
through shallow flooded areas. No interconnecting streets
from above sea level areas to other above sea level areas...or
dedicated communications lines that would be above sea level.

Anyone who has looked at TV news coverage should have seen
dozens and dozens of big yellow school busses sitting in a
flooded motor pool (apt name, "motor pool") EMPTY and unused.
"High rise" types which have greater-than-average-vehicle road
clearance and could have gotten through for evacuation before
the flooding was complete. UNUSED in the one-day pre-storm
evacuation order issued by the Mayor. Each of those school
busses would have been more than adequate to hold portable
radio base stations with operators after transporting evacuees
to higher ground.


The problem as I see it is that the radio comms are kind of like a
swimming duck. Above the water line there is not a lot of stuff going
on. Below the line is all kinds of activity.

What in the world are you trying to say there?


Are the emergency organizations going to employ pay and train competent
radio operators who are capable of figuring out where they need to be
frequency wise? I doubt it. If so, I wanna apply for that job.

You want to be in a group that was inept at planning ahead?

Clue: MANAGEMENT of a city is SUPPOSED to do that PLANNING AHEAD
(of some sort) to handle emergency contingencies. It is NOT "up
to the 'radio operators' to seek out 'new operating locales.'"


In this group, we've discussed the contesting issue, in which others
and myself have claimed that it is practice for emergency operations.
One regular poster in particular heaps a lot of scorn on those who
believe it is practice. But it is.

"Scorn?" No. IMPROPER ANALOGUES, yes. Have YOU EVER worked in
any sudden emergency situation? Explain how that is "comparable"
to radio contesting.

These operators would have to be frequency agile, as well as know what
frequency that they should use in a given situation. They need to be
able to copy weak signals, and be patient.

No, those operators MUST KNOW THEIR LAND TERRITORY and ORGANIZATION
of all the First Responders. They MUST KNOW and be ABLE TO
IMPROVISE IMMEDIATELY if part of that pre-esisting organization
becomes incommunicative or inoperable or cut off by such things as
impassible roadways.

A sudden emergency/disaster condition involves LIFE and DEATH.
NO radio contact contest is about life and death.

But I can just about wager a months salary that whatever "new" system
we end up with, it will be heavily infrastructure dependent, and
designed so that someone who knows nothing about radio and electronics
will just mash their PTT button. And it will work perfectly in drills.
And it will fail miserably when the "big one" hits it.

Make your one month salary amount payable to the American Red Cross.
You lost BIG TIME. I'll just cite a near-"big one" incident that
happened 11 1/2 years ago...precisely at a little past 4:30 AM on
17 January 1994. The Northridge Earthquake. TOTAL primary
electrical power failure for 10 million residents. Several building
collapses. 53 died directly. One natural gas distribution main line
fractured and on fire. Some freeway overpasses collapsed, blocking
all vehicles there.

The Emergency Communications Center for Greater Los Angeles was
functional, ramping up as more and more personnel arrived. PDs had
emergency electrical power for base stations, as did FDs. FDs were
alerted and informed through leased telephone lines that did NOT go
through telephone switching centers, thus remaining open, working.
LAFD was rolling on many fires, one I could see from my high back
yard vantage point (hard to miss against total blackness). Even
the utilities were equipped with emergency power. Mobiles kept on
working and rolling; one LAPD vehicle went face down a collapsed
overpass when unable to stop in time. Utility workers were called
up on the infrastructure telephone system, told were to report for
work. The infrastructure communications system WORKED and the First
Responders responded and started on their enormous work load, all
by just "mashing their PTT buttons" and communicating.

Then the hams with their "old technology" will come out of the woodwork
again.

They did NOT do so here 11 1/2 years ago. This terrible infra-
structure that was supposed to "fail" did NOT fail.

Yes, NORMAL telephone service was bogged down AT FIRST by panic.
That settled down. Utilities could call through their leased
lines OUT to workers; that plan was in place and working. There
was adequate EM spectrum allocation for all concerned to do
First Responding. PLANNING and drilling and ORGANIZATION done
well before the event tied everyone together. The enormity of
the repair workload ahead rather put a damper on "playing with
radios" or "fooling around, tuning a band for new contacts."
There was NO warning, NO time to prepare ahead. For any sudden
emergency event a PLAN - with sufficient drilling and training -
MUST exist beforehand. If radio amateurs are a part of that
plan, fine. They can help. But, such a PLAN must concern the
FIRST RESPONDERS first. THEY are the ones ON THE SCENE first.

Now all you easties can bitch and moan and call names of "six
land" people and all that, but we DO have plans that have been
PROVEN by ACTUAL TEST to WORK. In a sudden emergency with
absolutely NO warning.

The Gulf Coast region had over three days warning to prepare.
Did they have an adequate PLAN of how to handle anything? Ask
them. If you need some ideas on what to do and how to plan,
come west. We've done it and survived. Or maybe you can go to
the storm-ravaged, disaster-prone region south of Hartford and
learn all there is to know to be prepared? Your option.

an_old_friend wrote:
wrote:

From: Michael Coslo on Wed 14 Sep 2005 16:23



That's an ORGANIZATIONAL PLANNING thing, something to be done way
ahead of time. A small part of that is radio use. If worst comes
to absolute worst, "communications" can be effected by runners
(couriers, hand-carrying messages between operations bases as was
done in ancient military times)...individuals who carry messages
by hand or by mind or whatever to keep the bases in touch.


Hand carry is still done in some cases for security, or as a back up

"Colonel Morgan, I want to take this message from our headquarters in
New Orleans and swim to Baton Rouge with it. Be back in fifteen minutes."

Dave K8MN