"Michael Coslo" wrote

Design the system that will always be up, will allow anyone to communicate to
anyone anywhere with no knowledge of anything by the users, aside from turning
the radio on, adjusting the audio, and mashin' that button.


You have it precisely correct. I knew you'd catch on!


You suggesting reactors for power supplies?


Where did I suggest that?


The hyper complicated system that you describe only adds to the infrastructure
needed to support the system.


Actually, the EDACS at New Orleans was pretty compact, simple, and
straightforward compared to most major metropolitan areas. Certainly wasn't
"hyper complicated".


Your ideas are good

Of course they are. I made my living for many years in telecommunications
planning/configuration.


--
73, de Hans, K0HB
--
Homepage:
http://www.home.earthlink.net/~k0hb
Member:
ARRL http://www.arrl.org
SOC http://www.qsl.net/soc
VWOA http://www.vwoa.org
A-1 Operator Club http://www.arrl.org/awards/a1-op/
TCDXA http://www.tcdxa.org
MWA http://www.w0aa.org
TCFMC http://www.tcfmc.org
FISTS http://www.fists.org
LVDXA http://www.upstel.net/borken/lvdxa.htm
NCI http://www.nocode.org

From: K=D8=88B on Sep 15, 12:20 pm


"Michael Coslo" wrote

Design the system that will always be up, will allow anyone to communica=
te to
anyone anywhere with no knowledge of anything by the users, aside from t=
urning
the radio on, adjusting the audio, and mashin' that button.

You have it precisely correct. I knew you'd catch on!

Takes Michael a LONG time to catch on. I doubt if he'd make a
good First Responder. :-)


You suggesting reactors for power supplies?

Where did I suggest that?

You didn't, Hans, but Michael may be hyped on "cold fusion." What
he seems to be fusing is dissent.

ANY startable emergency electric power generator is good if there is
STORABLE fuel at the ready. It was so in the 1950s and the good old
PE-95 truck-transportable diesel motor run generator. [used to fire
one up on the bimonthly readiness check at FEC Hq in Tokyo, in the
blockhouse at Pershing Heights, now the Hq of the Japanese Self
Defense Force]

In the FIRST east coast electrical blackout, one NYC hospital didn't
do good planning. They had a good electric power generator, but the
compressed-air STARTER (big diesel engines for that usually used
compressed air) was operated from 230 VAC! Luckily they were able
to borrow a roll-around gasoline-powered compressor to start their
electric generator. :-)

Back then in the 60s the FAA had air regs that all airport runway
lighting had to have emergency electric generation. The FAA had
forgotten to include regs for all the ATC radios! Pilots in the
air managed to "direct" their own traffic and nobody in the air was
hurt. FAA added/amended regs to include generators shortly after.

A couple decades later, another generation of beaurocrats later,
they didn't plan well enough on the Los Angeles Center ATC
"upgrade" in Palmdale. Result was an outage of several hours
due to a not-fully-tested auto-start-generator computer tie-in
system. Some folks just don't want to listen to what had already
been experienced, thought they had all the answers, didn't TEST
all the "innovations."


The hyper complicated system that you describe only adds to the infrastr=
ucture
needed to support the system.

Actually, the EDACS at New Orleans was pretty compact, simple, and
straightforward compared to most major metropolitan areas. Certainly wasn=
't
"hyper complicated".

The Greater Los Angeles area could be described as having a "hyper-
complicated" public safety radio area. Thing is, every one of
the 84 cities and suburbs got together, including the County and
State, making a workable system with fall-back provisions and
contingency accommodations. It got the acid test nearly a dozen
years ago and PASSED. The lessons learned were incorporated later
to improve it.

New Orleans, mostly built on ground BELOW sea level (I didn't know
that before Katrina hit), should have had enough small boats for
all those First Responders. Did they? Didn't seem like many on
the TV news. Most radios don't float well. Neither do the folks
(First Responders) who "just mash their PTT buttons" NOR the hams.

Your ideas are good

Of course they are. I made my living for many years in telecommunications
planning/configuration.

Your ideas are good to me even if you didn't have the background.
Logical thinking and consideration of ALL factors are necessary.

Contingency thinking, being able to do work-arounds for the
unexpected, is an absolute necessity of managers. Case in point
occurred locally at the Burbank Airport (now Bob Hope Airport)
nearly four decades ago. The FAA control tower in the old
terminal building was above the main restaurant at the airport.
On a Saturday there was a big grease fire in the restaurant
kitchen requiring evacuation of all, including tower personnel.
FAA had no plans for any backup. Neighboring airport towers
advised all of the situation, a few air carriers diverted to
land elsewhere. Meanwhile, Pacific Airomotive, a big aviation
service company at BUR, grabbed some of their radio gear and
set up a makeshift tower communications place on one of their
large trucks now emplaced near the runway intersection. FAA
was happy and rules changes by telephone made it "legal."
That was completed within three hours of the evac order. That
temporary "tower" functioned for over a week afterwards until
the regular tower was deemed habitable and a few toasted wires
replaced. I heard most of it over a civil aviation band
receiver, including a radio news helicopter hovering near the
temporary "tower" getting the news data for live feed on BC.

The FAA didn't throw up their hands and vamoose. Pac Aero was
neighborly and responsive, had enough radio gear to make it
happen with the aid of two other local aero service companies.
The only ones hurt were the owners of the restaurant suffering
bank account attacks; it never opened again. Flights resumed
though there was more airfreight then (Flying Tigers). Those
involved "knew their territory" and managed work-arounds. A
decade later a new FAA tower was built very near the site of
the temporary one. Folks in management positions acted
positively, innovatively, and MADE IT HAPPEN.

Len:

I have given "free power" quite a bit of thought. Even if a method
existed, all govt's, indeed, all peoples would almost be fools to allow it
to be unleashed. (and my "conspiracy theory mentality" notices a few
strange deaths of individuals evolving themselves with such efforts--but
probably just a coincidence grin)

Think about a muslim terrorist (or a group of them!) with an unlimited
energy supply, perhaps we would be wise in what we wish for--I can easily
imagine a scenario which makes the new orleans disaster look mild...

John


.... MAJOR SNIP! ...

From: John Smith on Sep 16, 7:12 am

Len:

I have given "free power" quite a bit of thought. Even if a method
existed, all govt's, indeed, all peoples would almost be fools to allow it
to be unleashed. (and my "conspiracy theory mentality" notices a few
strange deaths of individuals evolving themselves with such efforts--but
probably just a coincidence grin)

John, you are starting to get into the "how many angels dance on
the head of a pin" sort of discussion. Not my cuppa...

Think about a muslim terrorist (or a group of them!) with an unlimited
energy supply, perhaps we would be wise in what we wish for--I can easily
imagine a scenario which makes the new orleans disaster look mild...

Then write a book on it. For the fiction genre you are up against
Tom Clancy and his bestsellers currently undergoing reprints for
the stands. For fictional documentary sort of claptrap you still
have good old Erich von Daniken alive and still unwell in der
Schweiz [see "In Search of Ancient Astronauts"].

For REAL DISASTER EMERGENCY ELECTRICAL POWER practical situations
there are, and have been for some time, for 24-hour service:

1. Diesel motors driving rotary electrical generators, having
storable diesel oil fuel.

2. Gasoline motors driving rotary electrical generators, having
storable gasoline fuel.

3. Liquified gas fueled motors driving rotary electrical
generators, the liquified gas storable for long periods.

4. Jet propellant fueled turbines driving rotary electrical
generators, the jet propellant storable for long periods.

5. Hybrid steam turbines, fueled by a variety of storable fuels
to heat water to steam which drives the turbine which, in
turn drives a rotary electrical generator. Nuclear
electrical generators fall into this category with the
storable fuel in the form of radioactive elements providing
heat from radioactive decay.

6. Wind-driven (turbine-like) rotary electrical generators,
subject to varying wind conditions.

7. Thermoelectric junction DC electrical generators using many
different forms of storable, combustible fuels. Once popular
in Russia and the USSR but generally low power output.

For very low power drain electrical loads there are a variety of
forms of manually-cranked, spring-driven motive forces for
rotary electrical generators or "primary" (use once)
electrochemical reaction "batteries." All are storable.

"Secondary" (use many times) batteries require periodic recharging
to alter their internal electrochemistry, such electrical recharge
provided by any of the preceding seven generator types. Within
limits of their electrochemistry system, those are storable.

Solar cells haven't been listed because the Earth's rotation
prevents 24-hour continuous illumination/energy-intake to operate.

All of the above have much literature and data available for
consultation/learning/teaching/etc., including books.

A complex hybrid solar boiler and heat storage medium typified
by the Mojave, CA, "Solar One" and "Solar Two" 50 MWe pilot plants
experimented by a consortium of California utility companies.
Those are too massive to consider for emergency electric power
generation; "Solar One" had over 300 heliostats (tracking mirrors
forming a segmented mirror to focus solar energy on a central
boiler). [been there, worked on that...]

There are variants which have been publicized, such as tidal
water flow driven electrical generators, but those have not yet
been made a size suitable for transportable emergency electric
power generation.

For real-life, tried-and-proven electrical power necessary to
effect radio communication in disaster/emergency situations, one
should turn to one of the seven STORABLE FUEL systems listed.
That's REALITY.

However, in here, REALITY results in a few whiny little mal-
contents far from disaster areas ****ing and moaning fantasies
of heroism and amateurs being First Responders. Those begrudge
all who don't buy into their fantasies as "hating ham radio!"

Gas Bag Lennie expounds yet again.

Never say in one paragraph, Lennie, that which you can say in sixteen.

Donny wrote:
Gas Bag Lennie expounds yet again.

Never say in one paragraph, Lennie, that which you can say in sixteen.

Dumbass Davies whines again because what Anderson posted was so far
above his 1st grade reading level of Dr. Who and Star Trek.

Tell me, fatty, have you ever had an original thought in that hollow,
worthless skull of yours yet? Or is that still in the early planning
stages? Enquiring minds, etc.