nobodys old friend wrote:
K4YZ wrote:
nobodys old friend wrote:
K=D8HB wrote:
"nobodys old friend" wrote

not at all no one living in the times knows
what was happening ....
....History can never be truly known till at
al least 50 years after the fact

What a humorous crock of ####! It isn't history when it's happenin=
g=2E It's real
life.

but the truth about current events is never known

BBBWWWWHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAH AHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHA
! ! ! ! ! ! !

simple fact

The Comenader at Midway did not know the what all was going one

"commander"

Was that a sentence? What has the commander at Midway have to do
with the Cuban Missle Crisis?

Or are you refering to the situation at Midway in 1942? Seems he
knew a lot more than his adversary since between him, the COMSEC guys
and some sneaky radio ops they figured out what the Japanese were up
to. That's why a militarily superior force got whupped by a
logistically strapped force.

"...what all was going one..."

WTF was that?

Ceaser's (Otavian) legion comanders did know what was going in the cvil
war with Anthony

"Octavian" "commanders" "civil"

Ya think the lack of spontaneous, simulataneous communications had
anything to do with that?

hans can't have known what was going in the white house or at state

"Hans" "White House"

Why couldn't he have? He was certainly in a much better position
to know than YOU did at the time!

Admiral Anderson had no real understanding of the presidents mind=
=2E..

Admiral Anderson wasn't in charge of the quarantine. Admiral Alfre=
d "Corky"
Ward was. What you learned at "4 or 5 years old" is a legend in yo=
ur own
distorted mind.

Aderson certainly was in charge unless ward went off and founded his
own navy

"Anderson"

I was again giving you the benift of the doubt Ward was further out of
the loop than Anderson

"benefit"

It wasn't yours to give, Mark.

it is solely mine to give, on my own behalf

No, it's not.

There was NO doubt in ANYone's mind but yours, and only because
you're ill-informed and typically running off at the mouth about topics
for which you are ill-prepared.

End of conversation.

promises pormises

What an idiot.

Can't even spell the same word right twice even when it's the ONLY
word in the "sentence"... ! ! !

no I can't some days

What? The moon's gravity pulls your fingers one way or the other?

Or you just hit your prescription meds and Jack Daniels a bit too
hard the night before?

but you know that, you know why (or you should by now) and yet you show
you willing to bash and insult the disabled by going on and on

I'm not "bashing" anyone.

You're an incompetent, lazy punk. That's all.

OTOH do go ahead it saves me a lot of work with the targer audeince in
showing you, and your side in various deabte your true colors

"target" "audience" "debate"

T A R G E T...?!?! YOU'RE THREATENING ME! ! ! STALKER! STALKER!

My "true colors" are red, white and blue, intertwined with USMC
Scarlet and Gold.

Yours are just white and yellow.

Steve, K4YZ

"K4YZ" wrote in message
oups.com...

nobodys old friend wrote:
K4YZ wrote:
nobodys old friend wrote:
KØHB wrote:
"nobodys old friend" wrote

not at all no one living in the times knows
what was happening ....
....History can never be truly known till at
al least 50 years after the fact

What a humorous crock of ####! It isn't history when it's
happening. It's real
life.

but the truth about current events is never known

BBBWWWWHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAH AHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHA
! ! ! ! ! ! !

simple fact

The Comenader at Midway did not know the what all was going one

"commander"

Was that a sentence? What has the commander at Midway have to do
with the Cuban Missle Crisis?

Or are you refering to the situation at Midway in 1942? Seems he
knew a lot more than his adversary since between him, the COMSEC guys
and some sneaky radio ops they figured out what the Japanese were up
to. That's why a militarily superior force got whupped by a
logistically strapped force.

"...what all was going one..."

WTF was that?

Ceaser's (Otavian) legion comanders did know what was going in the cvil
war with Anthony

"Octavian" "commanders" "civil"

Ya think the lack of spontaneous, simulataneous communications had
anything to do with that?

hans can't have known what was going in the white house or at state

"Hans" "White House"

Why couldn't he have? He was certainly in a much better position
to know than YOU did at the time!

Admiral Anderson had no real understanding of the presidents mind
...

Admiral Anderson wasn't in charge of the quarantine. Admiral Alfred
"Corky"
Ward was. What you learned at "4 or 5 years old" is a legend in
your own
distorted mind.

Aderson certainly was in charge unless ward went off and founded his
own navy

"Anderson"

I was again giving you the benift of the doubt Ward was further out of
the loop than Anderson

"benefit"

It wasn't yours to give, Mark.

it is solely mine to give, on my own behalf

No, it's not.

There was NO doubt in ANYone's mind but yours, and only because
you're ill-informed and typically running off at the mouth about topics
for which you are ill-prepared.

End of conversation.

promises pormises

What an idiot.

Can't even spell the same word right twice even when it's the ONLY
word in the "sentence"... ! ! !

no I can't some days

What? The moon's gravity pulls your fingers one way or the other?

Or you just hit your prescription meds and Jack Daniels a bit too
hard the night before?

but you know that, you know why (or you should by now) and yet you show
you willing to bash and insult the disabled by going on and on

I'm not "bashing" anyone.

You're an incompetent, lazy punk. That's all.

OTOH do go ahead it saves me a lot of work with the targer audeince in
showing you, and your side in various deabte your true colors

"target" "audience" "debate"

T A R G E T...?!?! YOU'RE THREATENING ME! ! ! STALKER! STALKER!

My "true colors" are red, white and blue, intertwined with USMC
Scarlet and Gold.

Yours are just white and yellow.

Steve, K4YZ

Marky just likes to argue Steve. Don't confuse him with the facts.

I especially enjoyed the part about the Cuban missle Crisis and the
Commander at Midway......well you know.

And Dee is correct, at least that is how I remember how it went in 1962.
Shortly after the Russians pulled there missles out of Cuba we removed the
obsolete Jupiters. No real loss since the Submarine missles and the new
Atlas ICBM were coming or were already on line. Not to mention the lighter
Hydrogen bombs available for use by the B-52 SAC Bombers.

Dan/W4NTI

On Tue, 11 Oct 2005 19:58:53 GMT, Dave Heil
wrote:

snip

That would have a been a tough one. How do you think you did with
"Soviet", "spelling", "missiles" and "valueable"?

Actually, the word is spelled "valuable"......

http://www.bartleby.com/61/56/V0015600.html

Nice job on the other three, though!

snip

Dave K8MN

73, Leo

Dan/W4NTI wrote:
"K4YZ" wrote in message

Marky just likes to argue Steve. Don't confuse him with the facts.

Quite correct.

I especially enjoyed the part about the Cuban missle Crisis and the
Commander at Midway......well you know.

Well...Coming from a "guy" who was "drafted" at age 7 or 8 and
forced to remain on active duty despite being an admitted deviant and
pathological liar, I don't find ANYthing that comes out of Mark's
"mouth" surprising anymore...ESPECIALLY since he's admitted what goes
IN his mouth....

And Dee is correct, at least that is how I remember how it went in 1962.
Shortly after the Russians pulled there missles out of Cuba we removed the
obsolete Jupiters. No real loss since the Submarine missles and the new
Atlas ICBM were coming or were already on line. Not to mention the lighter
Hydrogen bombs available for use by the B-52 SAC Bombers.

The story behind the Jupiter missles was nothing more than a "face
saving" exercise for the Soviets. It allowed them to say, "See, we did
get something out of the whole deal..." when in fact all we did was
change from fixed base missles to seaborne.

It's just one more "Markism" we can point at him and laugh about,
Dan!

73

Steve, K4YZ

Careful, Marky the stalker will hit you with his purse.

an old friend wrote:
wrote:
an old friend wrote:
wrote:
K=D8HB wrote:
wrote

They valued warfare higher.

As someone who has "been there, done that" I can assure you that =
nobody values
warfare except arms vendors.

Warfare is perceived (rightly or wrongly) as a method to OBTAIN s=
ome thing or
some result of value.

Well said!

JFK needed something that looked good to
counter his critics about the Bay of Pigs and
the Cuban missile crisis.

"Been there, done that, got the medals both times". The only cri=
tics of the
results of the "Cuban missile crisis" wore poorly fitting suits a=
nd drank lots
of vodka.

Not the results but that the whole thing happened in the first plac=
e=2E

IIRC, the Soviets were ticked off about the placement of Jupiter-C
IRBMs in Turkey. Of course Turkey was and is a NATO country. Moscow=
's
objection to the IRBMs was that they could hit targets inside the
Soviet Union in minutes, and were virtually impossible to stop,
compared to conventional bombers. They demanded that the IRBMs be
removed, and of course NATO refused - even though the Jupiters were
becoming outdated by ICBMs and submarine-launched missiles.

So the Soviets retaliated by trying to install similar IRBMs in Cub=
a=2E
Fortunately the preparations were discovered and their plans thwart=
ed.

But what was kept rather quiet is that some months after the Soviets
backed down from installing their missiles in Cuba, the Jupiters we=
re
quietly removed from Turkey.

bull**** Jim

Which part of what I wrote is not true, Mark?

that the Jupiter links with the cuban misle cris were unknown at the
time

That's the way it was. There were two parts to the resolution of the
crisis:

First, the Soviets removed their missiles and promised not to put such
missiles or similar weapons so close to the USA in the future. This
part was made public right away.

Second, the USA and NATO removed the Jupiter-C missiles from Turkey
some time afterwards. This part was kept secret and *not* publicized
until long after the crisis was over.

But don't take my word for it. Read the actual documents, many recently
unclassified:

http://www.gwu.edu/~nsarchiv/nsa/cuba_mis_cri/

All sorts of good stuff on that site. For example, the Jupiters in
Turkey only became operational in April, 1962. And at that time, the
USSR had only about fifty nuclear-capable bombers and missiles that
could reach the USA, while the USA had about ten times that many
capable of reaching the USSR.

the NY Times and Washington post had stories out within day of their
withdraw

Show us.

it was comon knowledge with a few years

The point is that *at the time of the crisis* the US agreement to
remove the Jupiter-Cs from Turkey was kept very quiet, while the USSR's
agreement to remove their missiles from Cuba was all over the front
pages of the Western world.

Perhaps you mean my reference to the Jupiter-Cs as "IRBMs"
(Intermediate-Range-Ballistic-Missiles) which are elsewhere called
"MRBMs" (Medium-Range-Ballistic-Missiles).

every movie or account of those days mentions it

Even if true, so what?

that these account all list the withdraw

*AFTER* the crises was long past. Not in October/November 1962, when
the Soviet concessions were made.

Those movies and accounts were done long after the crisis. What I wrote
is true: some months after the Soviets backed down from installing
their missiles in Cuba, the Jupiters were quietly removed from Turkey.

the last is the falsehood the jupiters simply were not front page news

Show us.

That they were scheduled to be removed, were obsolete, and were already
replaced by more-effective submarine-launched missiles and ICBMs is
inconsequential. The point is that the Soviets backed down publicly and
visibly, while *at the time*, the removal of the missiles in Turkey was
kept quiet until long after it was an accomplished fact.

deabtable the meaning of "long" by my count it was matter of few
months.

Then what you're really arguing over is how much time it takes to
qualify as "long after".

I call that short, indeed id say it was kept queist a shorter
than most folks who do learn morse Code take to learn it

Most people can learn Morse Code well enough to pass the current test
in about 30 days - if they practice the right way.

but in any event that was part of the deal the jupiter withdraw was
mostly to help K setle matter matter with the politboro, not the public

NK was removed from power within about two years (1964), with the
handling of that crisis being a big factor.

and that the Jupiters were obsolete and scheduled for withdraw

and the Kendy had ordered their withdraw several time

cut the waste of BW

You mean the facts. The Jupiters in Turkey only became operational in
April 1962.

I suggest you and anyone interested check out the above website for the
facts.


btw, since K0HB was a USN radio operator involved in the quarantine,
it's very possible he knew far more about what was going on - first
hand - than you give him credit for.

Dee Flint wrote:
Movies and novels, etc often take artistic license with the facts in order
to produce more impact. That is true of both dramas and comedies. So any
one who relies on such items for their history is going to be using a far
amount of misinformation. Even the news media takes artistic license by the
selection of what facts and speculation to report since they are going for
ratings.

Well said, Dee!

There's also the fact that opinions differ about what is worth
reporting and what is not, how much detail to report, how much history
to tell, etc.

It should also be remembered that before Vietnam and particularly
Watergate, the US news media tended to avoid criticizing the current
administration. They'd almost always give the president - indeed,
almost anyone in the government - the benefit of the doubt, as it were.
All that changed after Watergate.

The following website:

http://www.gwu.edu/~nsarchiv/nsa/cuba_mis_cri/

includes a critique of the recent film "Thirteen Days", specifically
pointing out how its omissions can leave the viewer with a rather
distorted and inaccurate view of what caused the crisis in the first
place. That film is recent, too, not 40 years old.

73 de Jim, N2EY

Dee Flint wrote:

Movies and novels, etc often take artistic license with the facts in order
to produce more impact. That is true of both dramas and comedies. So any
one who relies on such items for their history is going to be using a far
amount of misinformation. Even the news media takes artistic license by the
selection of what facts and speculation to report since they are going for
ratings.

Dee D. Flint, N8UZE

Dee, excellent, excellent post.

That must be why some in this group constantly quote british comedy as
if it were somehow relevant to matters at hand. They get their history
from Monty Python. Telling is their admiration for the contribution(s)
that the ARS made in WWII. Quitepuzzling, since the ARS was shut down
by the US government at the time.

wrote:
Dee Flint wrote:

Movies and novels, etc often take artistic license with the facts in order
to produce more impact. That is true of both dramas and comedies. So any
one who relies on such items for their history is going to be using a far
amount of misinformation. Even the news media takes artistic license by the
selection of what facts and speculation to report since they are going for
ratings.

Dee D. Flint, N8UZE


Dee, excellent, excellent post.

That must be why some in this group constantly quote british comedy as
if it were somehow relevant to matters at hand. They get their history
from Monty Python. Telling is their admiration for the contribution(s)
that the ARS made in WWII. Quitepuzzling, since the ARS was shut down
by the US government at the time.

Many radio amateurs made their war contributions as radio operators.
Many became electronics and radio instructors. Many were involved in
radio design and manufacture. Many became involved with Civil Defense
and WERS (War Emergency Radio Service). There is a large amount of
documentation of the efforts of radio amateurs during the Second World
War. Have you read any of it?

Dave K8MN

wrote:
Dee Flint wrote:

Movies and novels, etc often take artistic license with the facts in order
to produce more impact. That is true of both dramas and comedies. So any
one who relies on such items for their history is going to be using a far
amount of misinformation. Even the news media takes artistic license by the
selection of what facts and speculation to report since they are going for
ratings.

Dee D. Flint, N8UZE

Dee, excellent, excellent post.

We start out agreeing...

That must be why some in this group constantly quote british comedy as
if it were somehow relevant to matters at hand. They get their history
from Monty Python. Telling is their admiration for the contribution(s)
that the ARS made in WWII. Quitepuzzling, since the ARS was shut down.

Then comes your demonization.

Question, Brian...: Why do you remain an Amateur Radio licensee?
I ask this since the only people you seem to "click" with clearly hate
Amateur Radio and it reflects in your own posts. So why maintain the
"relationship" with people you clearly disdain?

Steve, K4YZ